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[EDMIX]

Well, they probably wouldn't have learned much

Thats incorrect sir, they would have learned that her brain in terms of the virus could offer nothing as not to do the same method for someone who is immune. What if they run across another immune person? So even in the event of not learning much, is an event of learning the brain doesn't hold some answer or the method they are doing won't show a result.

Its a missed opportunity regardless.

that wasn't going to guarantee a cure

99% sure I literally stated in the very post you are even replying to "Its not arguing it was 100%, it saying what could have been the START of them getting the cure and learning more about the virus"

So you are stuck on this whole "probably wouldn't have learned" yet ignoring that information is still helping in finding the cure. Its literally telling them a immune person's brain may not hold the clue, thus they can fucking use a different part of the body or if they come across another immune person run a different set of test.

When they come across another immune person they will try the very fucking thing they were denied years prior, cut open the brain, find out it does nothing, information they could have known YEARS AGO to actually fucking DO SOMETHING ELSE THE NEXT TIME.

I don't think you guys understand that trial and error still needs the error to run a different trial.

(and her needed to die wasn't a sure thing

Yet what they learned or even didn't learn would going to allow them to move forward with different methods to finding the cure. She could have simply been step 58 out of 200 steps that got to the cure. I'm not sure why folks are stuck on this idea that the cure needed to be done the next day after her death to make it make sense when a shit load of studies are done and lots of trials and errors are done to get to these type of things. What ever they learned was worth it as even learning nothing allows them to do something differently when they come across another immune person.

The sacrifice is worth it for mankind as even the outcome of that 1 experiment is a success in learning what will and won't work.

"There is no such thing as a failed experiment, only experiments with unexpected outcomes." - Richard Buckminster Fuller

 

[oagboghi2]

Joel and neil are both idiots.

Joel find a document in the first game where it's clear that the fireflies doesn't know what the fuck they are doing in the medical aspect and neil change this on the sequel making the fireflies looking more hopefull than they really are.

Just show to the annoying bitch the fucking document and let her realize that losing her life would be useless.

But no, let's make some easy shitty quality drama...

Bingo.

It's all bullshit

 

[EDMIX]

Ellie wanted to give up because of Dina and her pregnant state

? That's actually completely incorrect In fact I would argue just the opposite, Don't you think it's weird that in the middle of their journey Dina tells her that she's pregnant? That's not by accident , That's very much done on purpose. You could have made Dina announced that she was pregnant literally at any fucking time in the game but it's clear she's saying this at the time that they're in the middle of the journey to Illustrate something about Ellie's character

So I don't see any information that argues she wanted to give up because of that pregnancy in fact on the contrary her fucking self-centered and narcissistic attitude of wanting to get revenge at all cost is even at the fucking cost and welfare of her fucking girl friend who's pregnant...... Is she saying to stop the journey? Is she saying let's go back? She's going forward in continuing her hunt In fact even when Jesse goes to help Tommy she very much goes to the aquarium by herself completely disregarding the welfare of her own fucking friends This is not done by accident This is all done on purpose to illustrate this character's drive to get revenge at the cost of everyone around her. My god, even on the farm with the kid being born she still fucking leaves to seek revenge, I'm not sure how many times she needs to choose revenge over her friends for you to get that is what they were driving home at, but I don't believe you played the game if you are really saying she wanted to "give up". Nah, a better person would want to do that, Ellie is flawed and by no means some person that will do the right thing for their friends. She will do what she wants for herself and herself only 99% of the game.

Maybe you should play the game, I'm sorry but you seriously need to fucking play it because the rest of the things that you're saying can't even really be interpreted as simply just your opinion your objectively making statements that don't exist in the game..

So I would say take the advice of the other users and play the game if you want to critique it to this level .

 

[Clear]

Bingo.

It's all bullshit

No its not, its a matter of perspective.

Of course the Fireflies BELIEVE that they are going to be successful, if they didn't believe that why do any of it in the first place.

Joel on the other hand doesn't believe in anything but survival for himself and the few he cares about.

Its two different world views. So depending on which side we're viewing events from, they have a different meaning for each character.

The commonality is they all do bad shit and seek redemption for their actions. Its why its the last Of US .

 

[Balducci30]

No, they said they were going to make a cure.

This carried over into the next game as Joel says, "Making a vaccine would've killed you. So I stopped them." Writers always imply at the cure was garneted and didn't suggest otherwise. You can bring up theories that has nothing to do with the actual story of the game all you want, but it's not going to change what was written. The reason why you can't bring up anything as proof from the game is because it's not there. You're only bringing up alternate theories, which doesn't hold weight in this conversation. If you want to prove anything, then start showing documents from the game that proves your theory, not "what if" scenarios that are not from the writers.

Yeah no shit in the second game they solidified it like that. In the first it didn’t seem like a sure thing - not to me at least. I wouldn’t believe the fireflies were capable of it if this were a real scenario - someone just tells you that’s gonna happen and you go “ok yeah I believe that with no proof whatsoever” nah man. That’s why it makes the original last of us look a bit simpler in retrospect. I just assumed it was more complex than they intended it to be I guess - not as much a retcon as a “oh they were just trying to make this a spin on the old trolley problem” its fine it’s just not that great of writing

 

[Flutta]

Neil cuckmann is trash.

 

[Ulysses 31]

Tommy can't hear footsteps when he's shooting someone very 3 seconds. Tommy went from the Bridge, to inside of the building and then to the first floor of the building. So answer these questions. Can Tommy see anyone running towards the building and then entering the second floor from the stairs while he was on the first floor? If so, how can he see outside of the building through windows that were covered and barricaded?

I've already said that getting to the building once Tommy's inside should've been easy for Yara so I'm not sure why you bring up these questions. It's once she enters the building that I question how she got the jump on Tommy fast enough. All the doubts I've raised are from the moment Yara's inside the building.

 

[GymWolf]

No its not, its a matter of perspective.

Of course the Fireflies BELIEVE that they are going to be successful, if they didn't believe that why do any of it in the first place.

Joel on the other hand doesn't believe in anything but survival for himself and the few he cares about.

Its two different world views. So depending on which side we're viewing events from, they have a different meaning for each character.

The commonality is they all do bad shit and seek redemption for their actions. Its why its the last Of US .

There is a document that you find at the end of the game where it is crystal clear that the chance of finding a cure is very small and that they don't really know what they are doing.

This thing get changed in the sequel to make fireflies look like they knew what they were doing.

You can be okay with this because they need some excuse for a sequel and some easy drama with ellie and joel but this doesn't change the perception of the fireflies for the people who played the first one.

 

[subsmoke]

I've never understood why there was a debate over Joel's actions. The Fireflies at the hospital were going to kill Ellie. You can't just kill someone and take their brain out of their skull without their permission. If they had asked her "Ellie, do you want to do this?" it'd have been different. Aside from that, the idea that they were going to make a cure to save humanity seems crazy to me given the state of things. Most people were infected or dead and most living people were hunters that killed outsiders on sight. The Fireflies had no way of making a cure or distributing it throughout the world and there weren't many decent people left to benefit from a cure even if they made one.

 

[DForce]

I've already said that getting to the building once Tommy's inside should've been easy for Yara so I'm not sure why you bring up these questions. It's once she enters the building that I question how she got the jump on Tommy fast enough. All the doubts I've raised are from the moment Yara's inside the building.

You didn't answer all my questions. Could Tommy see anyone from the second floor while he was on the first floor?

 

[Rean no Kiseki]

 

[Ulysses 31]

You didn't answer all my questions. Could Tommy see anyone from the second floor while he was on the first floor?

Nope but he can still hear.

 

[DForce]

Nope but he can still hear.

So he can't see outside of the building neither can he see anyone on the top floor. From the stairs to where Yara encountered us a very short distance. Admitting that he cannot see anyone outside or on the second floor means Yara could go undetected and didn't have to worry about being seen until she reached the first floor. lol I mean, you can try to keep spinning this, but you're just trying very hard to find fault and it doesn't work.

 

[Ulysses 31]

So he can't see outside of the building neither can he see anyone on the top floor. From the stairs to where Yara encountered us a very short distance. Admitting that he cannot see anyone outside or on the second floor means Yara could go undetected and didn't have to worry about being seen until she reached the first floor. lol I mean, you can try to keep spinning this, but you're just trying very hard to find fault and it doesn't work.

He still killed someone on the first floor so to suggest that it's all smooth sailing for Yara to get to Tommy unnoticed once she makes it to the first floor seems naïve.

 

[Dunki]

HE did the same ANY Father would have done. Hell even Abbies Father before he was killed was acting like that when Abby asked him what he would do. It was selfish YES but it was the Selfishness of a Parrent who loves his child.

edit; AND YES THERE WAS NO GUARANTEE THAT THIS COULD SAVE THE WORLD

 

[ripeavocado]

He forgets to say one important thing:

There was no guarantee that killing Ellie would give the cure, the fireflies were incompetent they could have actually killed the only know immune person and therefore wasting any chance to a cure.


We can also discusso how ridicolous is to write a plot element that forces her to die but without it the whole plot falls apart so I give them a pass for this, not for rewriting plot and characters in TLOU2 though.

 

[DForce]

He still killed someone on the first floor so to suggest that it's all smooth sailing for Yara to get to Tommy unnoticed once she makes it to the first floor seems naïve.

And it doesn't change the fact that it was a very short distance from the bottom of the stairs. So your argument about how she needs to be stealthy doesn't really work considering it was a very, very short distance.

 

[thesplitsubject]

I wish I could replay TLOU with the gameplay tweaks of TLOU2.

 

[DForce]

The Fireflies had no way of making a cure or distributing it throughout the world and there weren't many decent people left to benefit from a cure even if they made one.

They can.

All they have to do write it because it's a fictional story. Nothing is stopping them.

 

[Clear]

There is a document that you find at the end of the game where it is crystal clear that the chance of finding a cure is very small and that they don't really know what they are doing.

This thing get changed in the sequel to make fireflies look like they knew what they were doing.

You can be okay with this because they need some excuse for a sequel and some easy drama with ellie and joel but this doesn't change the perception of the fireflies for the people who played the first one.

A small chance is better than none in a dire situation, even if everyone has doubts.

And how exactly does the sequel make it look like they know what they are doing? What we see is Abby's perspective/remembrance, and she's not impartial and likely to want to think the best of her Father.

The first game insinuates that Joel and Tommy may have resorted to cannibalism in order to survive, that's how high the stakes are in this dystopian future. Moral compromise is almost a given, so if we can give our "heroes" a pass, I don't think its that big of a stretch to forgive a veterinarian for making hard choices in an attempt to make things better.

To repeat: Its very odd how people are so pernickety about everyone but Joel's moral character. You think saving Ellie by killing a whole bunch of people makes him "good"? He's still the same piece of shit that he became following Sarah's death. I like(d) the character and I empathised with him doing what he did, but that doesn't make it right or absolve him from reaping what he has sown.

 

[Self]

Its very odd how people are so pernickety about everyone but Joel's moral character. You think saving Ellie by killing a whole bunch of people makes him "good"? He's still the same piece of shit

I find it very odd how you so effortlessly take the moral highground in this scenario.
It's a ambiguous story with a very complex situation, but seemingly not for you. You have no problem in judging Joel or people who can relate to his decision. It's like you totally missed the core meaning of the game.

 

[subsmoke]

They can.

All they have to do write it because it's a fictional story. Nothing is stopping them.

That's true but then there's nothing to debate lol

 

[Ulysses 31]

And it doesn't change the fact that it was a very short distance from the bottom of the stairs. So your argument about how she needs to be stealthy doesn't really work considering it was a very, very short distance.

Assuming she comes from the auto staircase Abby and Manny came from, I don't think it's a very short distance to the dinner(?) and behind(seems more than a few house rooms to me at least). With being stealthy I include making no noise. What you're saying doesn't make sense, why doesn't need Yara need to be stealthy against an enemy that could kill her from ranged, that she can't take head on with one hand and only a knife? Even if Yara's confident that the enemy hasn't detected her, she'd make sure it stays that way by remaining stealthy till she can surprise him.

The whole notion of going into firefights with neither side knowing about it with just a knife seems a bit absurd to me but in TLUO2 it allows the plot to advance.

 

[Ulysses 31]

They can.

All they have to do write it because it's a fictional story. Nothing is stopping them.

They can write it that way, doesn't mean it's convincing with all the other information available in the game.

 

[GymWolf]

A small chance is better than none in a dire situation, even if everyone has doubts.

And how exactly does the sequel make it look like they know what they are doing? What we see is Abby's perspective/remembrance, and she's not impartial and likely to want to think the best of her Father.

The first game insinuates that Joel and Tommy may have resorted to cannibalism in order to survive, that's how high the stakes are in this dystopian future. Moral compromise is almost a given, so if we can give our "heroes" a pass, I don't think its that big of a stretch to forgive a veterinarian for making hard choices in an attempt to make things better.

To repeat: Its very odd how people are so pernickety about everyone but Joel's moral character. You think saving Ellie by killing a whole bunch of people makes him "good"? He's still the same piece of shit that he became following Sarah's death. I like(d) the character and I empathised with him doing what he did, but that doesn't make it right or absolve him from reaping what he has sown.

Abby, his father and all the other seems more sure to find a cure compared to documents you find in the first one, not by much but enough to be noticed by many people.

also, like other people said, it's basically impossible for the fireflies to release the cure all around the world in a efficient way...i mean they get almost wiped out by a single man, they are not some gigantic powerfull group.

joel is a piece of shit, no doubt, never said otherwise, but if i was him, after reading that document i would have saved ellie too (or maybe not because she is annoying af )

I was discussing the fact that they retconned the fireflies and the cure in the sequel to make the action of joel even worse than they already are, there was no hope for a cure to begin with so ellie being mad for not being the saviour of the world (let's be honest, she doens't give a shit about the dead doctors) is still a bit contrived to many people eyes.

But to be honest, i don't play ND games for their story and chara, so the plot being controversial is not something that bother me that much, i never had great expectations from the start and tlou2 is still my 2020 goty

(sorry for the poor english)

P.s. i always thought that the scene where joel kill the surgeons was kinda forced, you need to physically murder the npc to save ellie but if it was real life there was no need to kill them, joel can easily over power them without killing anyone, that was really gratuitous from neil, joel doens't really kill innocent unarmed people for no reason in the game.

 

[Ulysses 31]

I was discussing the fact that they retconned the fireflies and the cure in the sequel to make the action of joel even worse than they already are, there was no hope for a cure to begin with so ellie being mad for not being the saviour of the world (let's be honest, she doens't give a shit about the dead doctors) is still a bit contrived to many people eyes.

I think they make Ellie's character even worse by not having her question that the Fireflies would've killed her without informed consent and that she would've been OK with leaving Joel without ever saying good bye to him first. It also raising questions on how much the father-daughter relationship they built up really means to her.

 

[DForce]

Assuming she comes from the auto staircase Abby and Manny came from, I don't think it's a very short distance to the dinner(?) and behind(seems more than a few house rooms to me at least). With being stealthy I include making no noise. What you're saying doesn't make sense, why doesn't need Yara need to be stealthy against an enemy that could kill her from ranged, that she can't take head on with one hand and only a knife? Even if Yara's confident that the enemy hasn't detected her, she'd make sure it stays that way by remaining stealthy till she can surprise him.

The whole notion of going into firefights with neither side knowing about it with just a knife seems a bit absurd to me but in TLUO2 it allows the plot to advance.

Its short because the stairs from the outside leads to the second floor. Sorry but your argument failed.

 

[DForce]

They can write it that way, doesn't mean it's convincing with all the other information available in the game.

Neither is infected humans being alive. Its all fiction.

 

[Ulysses 31]

Neither is infected humans being alive. Its all fiction.

So to make things more convincing the writers/creators need to show evidence of things they write about and adhere to at least some rules(laws of physics is a common one) to avoid the story becoming an incoherent mess.

The infected get established early on and throughout the games, the Fireflies' means to cure the whole world doesn't.

Its short because the stairs from the outside leads to the second floor. Sorry but your argument failed.

Nah, she still need to get close to an enemy stronger than her undetected from that point on.

 

[Clear]

I find it very odd how you so effortlessly take the moral highground in this scenario.
It's a ambiguous story with a very complex situation, but seemingly not for you. You have no problem in judging Joel or people who can relate to his decision. It's like you totally missed the core meaning of the game.

There's nothing ambiguous about Joel's character, its the text of the game! He's a bad guy, and EVERYONE around him knows it. The story proper opens with him and Tess strolling around the QZ like gangsters executing their competitors, and ends with him shooting an unarmed woman crawling on the ground to cover his tracks. He's more feared than liked, even his own brother has nightmares about what he put them through.

He does all this in the name of survival, but his actions are his actions. And those things you can judge objectively.

I'm not taking a moral highground, and as I said I like the character and his portrayal. My issue is with people who seem unable to apply the same allowances they give Joel to the rest of the cast.
Just because he's the protagonist, doesn't make him a hero. Likewise just because a character takes an adversarial or antagonistic position to the protagonist it doesn't make them a villain.

Its all fictional. And you have to judge fictional characters within the contexts and perspectives that the larger story creates. Its why so many of the criticisms against TLOU2 are so transparently bogus, its people imposing real-world equivalences and intentions on the cast and scenario and ignoring how plausible the actions are for the characters as written.

 

[DForce]

So to make things more convincing the writers/creators need to show evidence of things they write about and adhere to at least some rules(laws of physics is a common one) to avoid the story becoming an incoherent mess.

The infected get established early on and throughout the games, the Fireflies' means to cure the whole world doesn't.

They don't need to simplify the plot even more.

Nah, she still need to get close to an enemy stronger than her undetected from that point on.

She did remain undetected. That's why no one knew she was coming. I mean, based on your post, you believe footsteps are louder than gunshots from rifles. Look, you're now wasting my time with these desperate attempts. When you try to make a argument that footsteps can be heard over gunshots being fried from 3 different guns, then you know that person doesn't know what they're talking about.

 

[Ulysses 31]

There's nothing ambiguous about Joel's character, its the text of the game! He's a bad guy, and EVERYONE around him knows it. The story proper opens with him and Tess strolling around the QZ like gangsters executing their competitors, and ends with him shooting an unarmed woman crawling on the ground to cover his tracks. He's more feared than liked, even his own brother has nightmares about what he put them through.

He does all this in the name of survival, but his actions are his actions. And those things you can judge objectively.

I'm not taking a moral highground, and as I said I like the character and his portrayal. My issue is with people who seem unable to apply the same allowances they give Joel to the rest of the cast.
Just because he's the protagonist, doesn't make him a hero. Likewise just because a character takes an adversarial or antagonistic position to the protagonist it doesn't make them a villain.

Its all fictional. And you have to judge fictional characters within the contexts and perspectives that the larger story creates. Its why so many of the criticisms against TLOU2 are so transparently bogus, its people imposing real-world equivalences and intentions on the cast and scenario and ignoring how plausible the actions are for the characters as written.

So how do you view the Fireflies's actions at the hospital? How do you judge those?

It seems common that people who vilify Joel don't say a word about the Fireflies and their role in the story.

 

[Ulysses 31]

They don't need to simplify the plot even more.



She did remain undetected. That's why no one knew she was coming. I mean, based on your post, you believe footsteps are louder than gunshots from rifles. Look, you're now wasting my time with these desperate attempts. When you try to make a argument that footsteps can be heard over gunshots being fried from 3 different guns, then you know that person doesn't know what they're talking about.

"She pulled it off" is not a convincing argument enough for me with the events shown to the player. Obviously the gunshots would make Yara's advance easier, I'm still not convinced Yara would've made it to Tommy in time to save Abby. We don't know how aware Yara was of the progress of the fight and that she knew to hurry up because Tommy was going to defeat Abby.

 

[Self]

There's nothing ambiguous about Joel's character, its the text of the game! He's a bad guy, and EVERYONE around him knows it.

You missed my point and maybe the point of the game. Joel (actually everyone within the world of TLoU) did bad things in the past and still does bad things while we experience the world with them. But is it bad what Joel did in the end? He did really brutal things, but also wonderful things while we experience him. We took lives and we saved lives. He is an asshole while he is also wonderful. Is he a failure? I don't think so nor does the game imply that. The game doesn't judge him as you so willingly do. It shows us the potential of a grown man in a brutal environment. The potential to be a better person and the potential to fall back into the ugliness of his life.
The game has no answers to this dilemma, but you have. You took the moral highground here, which means you failed the intent of the game. Not every event in our life has a perfect solution, a clear right and wrong.

 

[Mediocre Arachno-Lad]

A small chance is better than none in a dire situation, even if everyone has doubts.

So a faction on its deathbed, that can't even afford to pay Joel, a fucking UPS guy, for the job well done, is gonna create and distribute a cure that better equipped factions couldn't?
Yeah, nah.
Somehow I don't see you sacrificing your life to a random crackhead hobo that says he'll make a cure for cancer from it, on the grounds of the "good of many" horseshit.
If you don't buy into their desperation-driven delusions there's no "good of many", and the chance isn't "small".
It's flat zero.

 

[perkelson]

I like that it is up for interpretation. The ending of TLOU was perfect, IMO. Great storytelling.

There was nothing to interpret. Bunch of hacks "thought" they had cure they tried to make vaccine is shoddly run abandoned hospital with full backstory of being dicks.

This is also reason why TLOU2 is shit game. Because they thought there was a "choice".

 

[Clear]

You missed my point and maybe the point of the game. Joel (actually everyone within the world of TLoU) did bad things in the past and still does bad things while we experience the world with them. But is it bad what Joel did in the end? He did really brutal things, but also wonderful things while we experience him. We took lives and we saved lives. He is an asshole while he is also wonderful. Is he a failure? I don't think so nor does the game imply that. The game doesn't judge him as you so willingly do. It shows us the potential of a grown man in a brutal environment. The potential to be a better person and the potential to fall back into the ugliness of his life.
The game has no answers to this dilemma, but you have. You took the moral highground here, which means you failed the intent of the game. Not every event in our life has a perfect solution, a clear right and wrong.

You're making my point for me by going the extra mile to defend Joel specifically. I'm not the one playing favourites here.

Everyone is flawed and guilty and looking for redemption. Trouble is, as the line goes in Eastwood's Unforgiven: "We all have it coming".

Lets just turn this around: The Fireflies did bad things in the past are looking to redeem themselves by finding a cure for the Cordyceps plague. Even if that process costs a couple of extra lives, that would still be a huge win and a vindication of their whole "look for the light" schtick.

There is no "dilemma". I think the word you are groping for is "duality", because almost every character is presented as having both good and bad qualities. Its also the whole fucking point of the sequel where Abby's storyline basically replays Joel's redemption arc in order to throw into sharp focus the question of how does someone in this savage world find peaceful release from their past sins.

Joel redeems himself by saving Ellie. Abby redeems herself by saving Lev. Ellie redeems herself by sparing Abby.

Alll 3 are shown doing terrible things, but the only one of these characters to be shown the possibility of a secure future is Ellie because her redemption breaks the cycle of violence.

 

[Warablo]

They really shat on Joel and Ellie's legacy.

 

[Blue Spring]

It just hit me but the end of the TLOU was in essence a variation of the trolley problem, lol.

 

[DForce]

There is a document that you find at the end of the game where it is crystal clear that the chance of finding a cure is very small and that they don't really know what they are doing.

This thing get changed in the sequel to make fireflies look like they knew what they were doing.

You can be okay with this because they need some excuse for a sequel and some easy drama with ellie and joel but this doesn't change the perception of the fireflies for the people who played the first one.

Here's the documents.

April 28th. Marlene was right. The girl's infection is like nothing I've ever seen. The cause of her immunity is uncertain. As we've seen in all past cases, the antigenic titers of the patient's Cordyceps remain high in both the serum and the cerebrospinal fluid. Blood cultures taken from the patient rapidly grow Cordyceps in fungal-media in the lab... however white blood cell lines, including percentages and absolute-counts, are completely normal. There is no elevation of pro-inflammatory cytokines, and an MRI of the brain shows no evidence of fungal-growth in the limbic regions, which would normally accompany the prodrome of aggression in infected patients.

We must find a way to replicate this state under laboratory conditions. We're about to hit a milestone in human history equal to the discovery of penicillin. After years of wandering in circles, we're about to come home, make a difference, and bring the human race back into control of its own destiny. All of our sacrifices and the hundreds of men and women who've bled for this cause, or worse, will not be in vain.

It's 5:30PM on... April 28th. I just finished speaking... More like yelling at our head surgeon. Apparently there's no way to extricate the parasite without eliminating the host. Fancy way of saying we gotta kill the fucking kid. And now they're asking for my go ahead. The tests just keep getting harder and harder, don't they? I'm so tired. I'm exhausted and I just want this to end... So be it.

Hey Anna... It's been awhile since we spoke. I uh... I just gave the go ahead to proceed with the surgery. I really doubt I had much of a choice, asking me was more of a formality. I need you to know that I've kept my promise all these years... despite everything that I was in charge of, I looked after her. I would've done anything for her, and at times...

Here's a chance to save us... all of us. This is what we were after... what you were after. They asked me to kill the smuggler. I'm not about to kill the one man in this facility that might understand the weight of this choice. Maybe he can forgive me. Oh, I miss you, Anna. Your daughter will be with you soon.

April 28

One of our scouts just radioed in. He spotted an older man and a young girl entering the tunnel by the bus terminal. He thinks she might've had red hair, but he's not sure. What if it's her? Stop doing this, Marlene!

The recon squad is about to head out. I'm going to join them.

April 28

When you're lost in the darkness, look for the light.

She's alive. They're running the tests on her now.

I can't tell if I'm excited, scared, or just nervous. All I know is my hands won't stop shaking.

Nothing has changed. There are no documents in the first game that supports the theory that the Fireflies didn't know what they were doing.

The past cases were from infected humans and that means they have either turned or were in the process of turning.

I don't know how anyone can interpret any of this and say the chances were small since nothing in the game supports this point. Neil Druckmann has said multiple times that Joel chose Ellie over the vaccine.

 

[bukowski81]

So a faction on its deathbed, that can't even afford to pay Joel, a fucking UPS guy, for the job well done, is gonna create and distribute a cure that better equipped factions couldn't?
Yeah, nah.
Somehow I don't see you sacrificing your life to a random crackhead hobo that says he'll make a cure for cancer from it, on the grounds of the "good of many" horseshit.
If you don't buy into their desperation-driven delusions there's no "good of many", and the chance isn't "small".
It's flat zero.

What is this nonsense? Do you think that the firefly will have the patent and the distribution rights? Of course the fireflies can not produce and distribute the vaccine to the whole world. That's not the point, the point is that the knowledge of how to make a vaccine will be there and it will spread and as time passes more and more places will be able to make a vaccine, and eventually, maybe in 10 years or 50 or whatever, the virus will be eradicated.

 

[Hugare]

"Joel Did Nothing Wrong - The Importance Of Ambiguity"

I thought that the guy who made the video was being funny by saying that "Joel did nothing wrong" and then saying "the importance of ambiguity" right after

... But nah, I think that he just didnt realize the irony about it

Makes you think about how cerebral this analysis really is, huh?

 

[Self]

You're making my point for me by going the extra mile to defend Joel specifically. I'm not the one playing favourites here.

Play fair game man. I answered your specific point:

"There's nothing ambiguous about Joel's character, its the text of the game! He's a bad guy, and EVERYONE around him knows it."

The point is that you don't grand him the potential to be something better then a 'bad' man. How can you define such a multifaceted character like that? I would understand you if you hadn't played the game, but this stance is just superficial and shallow to the ninth degree.

 

[Boss Mog]

another stupid video

Thanks for taking the time to come in thread and post such quality insight.

 

[SLB1904]

Thanks for taking the time to come in thread and post such quality insight.

You welcome

You should read the rest of thread before post such insight quality post.

 

[Clear]

Play fair game man. I answered your specific point:

"There's nothing ambiguous about Joel's character, its the text of the game! He's a bad guy, and EVERYONE around him knows it."

The point is that you don't grand him the potential to be something better then a 'bad' man. How can you define such a multifaceted character like that? I would understand you if you hadn't played the game, but this stance is just superficial and shallow to the ninth degree.

A character isn't defined by how much you like them, its how they are perceived by the rest of the cast of characters and their deeds in the story/backstory.

Do you understand the concept of an antihero? A protagonist that may be fascinating, even likeable, but fundamentally not a good person?

Some antihereoes may redeem themselves by accident or design by the end of their arcs, but the balance of the time spent with them they are doing bad or selfish stuff. Hence, that's what they are.

Even Joel's redemption arc is dubious. Yes, he clearly becomes deeply attached to and protective of Ellie, which is a big step forward for him, but his behaviour doesn't fundamentally change. His big moments involve him killing and torturing people! Sure, its to save Elliie, but that is as much for selfish reasons as anything else, and surely nothing as large scale as what motivates the Fireflies.

 

[pratyush]

Issue with Joel was that he was white guy. If he was black, same argument of protecting someone you love would be unanimously agreed. This may not be true for everyone but I have seen a lot of so called "Abby supporters" basically doing this. No prizes for guessing which side of political ideology they belong to. That's the only reason I mentioned this. Please don't go to war on this.

If I was put in the same situation, seeing that world order is horribly misplaced, fireflies are themselves not free of corruption, I would do everything possible to save the girl. The doubt that her sacrifice would be wasted would be enough for anyone to stop this from happening to someone you love. If the world is fucked up, same rules of morality do not apply.

 

[Bilbo Baggins]

So how do you view the Fireflies's actions at the hospital? How do you judge those?

It seems common that people who vilify Joel don't say a word about the Fireflies and their role in the story.

Tiresome, isn't it.

Every time this debate has played out over the years. Every single time we have to listen to people condemning Joel & calling him all the selfish pieces of shit under the sun.

For saving the life of a child that he loved.

Riiight...

But then when it comes to the Fireflies, those good guys trying to save humanity, those terrorists responsible for how many bombings? How many deaths? Those stand up characters ready to murder a child? All the excuses of the day get trotted out for them. It's the bigger picture yo. The needs of the many fam.

The truth is that the world of the first game was populated with monsters. The infected & the humans. Joel, Tess, the Fireflies & everybody else.

Ellie represented innocence & actual, real humanity. Something good. She rekindled Joel's humanity & their relationship became one of real, human love. Over the course of their journey together, they convinced themselves that the Fireflies also represented something good but when it came to judgement time they didn't. The Fireflies failed. They may have started out with noble goals but they had become monsters too, as proven by their willingness to murder an innocent child, which is wrong & it doesn't matter how you try to dress it up for goodness sake.

In the end, it took a monster to see the other monsters for what they were. Joel was no angel. He had become a bad, bad man during that 20 year gap but by the end his eyes had been opened once again by Ellie & he rediscovered what it was to be good again. It was as simple as being a loving father. So he was perfectly placed to see straight through Marlene & the Fireflie's shoddy, bullshit justifications & he was more than capable of doing what was necessary to stop their horrific act, with his own horrific act.

There were no angels in part 1, with the possible exception of Ellie. There were different monsters. Some of them were unaware & simple, like the infected. Some of them fully aware & nihilistic, like the hunters. Some of them completely deluded & in the end very dangerous, like the Fireflies. Some of them had been brutal & nasty but by the end, were trying to change & be better again, like Joel.

But forget all of that. Joel was just a selfish piece of shit who doomed humanity there's nothing else to say end of story

 

[Self]

A character isn't defined by how much you like them, its how they are perceived by the rest of the cast of characters and their deeds in the story/backstory.

That's blatantly false. We as observers/players have insights into the protagonists condition that people surrounding him don't. This gives us an advantage in judging his actions. To call someone a 'bad guy', because he is perceived as such by his surroundings is a very limited and superficial analysis.

His big moments involve him killing and torturing people!

That's your personal perception. For many people Joel's big moments aren't "your" moments at all. His most intimate moments with Ellie and his daughter are his "big" moments for me.

Sure, its to save Elliie, but that is as much for selfish reasons as anything else, and surely nothing as large scale as what motivates the Fireflies.

The 'noble' motives of the fireflies are at odds with their actual behavior. Terrorizing and killing folks isn't 'noble' at all. Sacrificing kids for a higher cause isn't either. Seeing the results of their day to day actions may lead to a rather sceptical stance, don't you think? Joel isn't the bad guy you make him out to be. You just decided it on your own. I'm rather agnostic in that regard.

 

[SLB1904]

That's blatantly false. We as observers/players have insights into the protagonists condition that people surrounding him don't. This gives us an advantage in judging his actions. To call someone a 'bad guy', because he is perceived as such by his surroundings is a very limited and superficial analysis.



That's your personal perception. For many people Joel's big moments aren't "your" moments at all. His most intimate moments with Ellie and his daughter are his "big" moments for me.



The 'noble' motives of the fireflies are at odds with their actual behavior. Terrorizing and killing folks isn't 'noble' at all. Sacrificing kids for a higher cause isn't either. Seeing the results of their day to day actions may lead to a rather sceptical stance, don't you think? Joel isn't the bad guy you make him out to be. You just decided it on your own. I'm rather agnostic in that regard.

Joel literally used to ambush innocent people. Murder and did all the sort of bad things between Sarah's death right to the point he meets ellie. Joel being a bad guy is a straight fact that for some reason you guys are ignoring