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[Neff]

Except Ellie’s gay. She isn’t voluntarily going to be bearing children

Not necessarily. There's no reason why she couldn't borrow a cup of jizz from a helpful donor. Countless lesbian couples do it all the time.

But I do agree that being gay would present unique obstacles in such a situation outside of simple good old fashioned homophobia like we saw in Part II.

 

[kingkenny76]

Pretty much spot on

100% correct IMO

 

[BabyfaceRe]

Joel did nothing wrong in TLOU1 but TLOU2 was written in a way to make you pissed at him and root for pig Abby. The fact that it worked on some mindless people makes it even more pathetic.

Even Ellie was mad at him, ungrateful psycho bitch. They ruined that character too.

This is objectively false. It's a great story for how it's open to individual interpretation especially with regards to asking the player "what would you do in Joel's shoes" . Most parents would protect thier loved ones no matter what and so on an emotional level Joel's decision feels natural and relatable. But the fact is what he did was utterly psychotic. Not only did he strip away humanity's only chance for a cure (ellie), he also murders every person with scientific knowledge of the infection (preventing any future progress even outside of ellie). The mere fact that these people were activley researching a cure made them inherently good people (atleast not evil people).

Ellies reaction (as annoying as it is) to joel in tlou2 makes complete sense as she understands how fucking stupid and selfish joel really is. The most shocking part of tlou2(to me) is that joel doesnt really seem to have much remorse about dooming all of humanity.
I understand people who say"id make the same choice as joel" that's what makes it poignant and powerful, but as someone on the outside looking in how can u see it as anything but utterly psychotic and villainous. "My first daughter died, so I wanna keep this one. Fuck literally every other person today, tomorrow and forever." Completely unhinged, the actions of a broken man.

 

[Self]

I think that gets to the heart of the problem. For me at least Joel didn't need forgiving, so that felt forced.

This line of thought doesn't make sense to me. Joel never needed forgiving, he never asked for forgiveness as far as I know. On the contrary, he said he would do it again - no regrets. He feld bad, because Ellie feld bad about it (guilt). The game doesn't do/judge at all, just showing Ellies POV.

 

[ksdixon]

Joel did nothing wrong in TLOU1 but TLOU2 was written in a way to make you pissed at him and root for pig Abby. The fact that it worked on some mindless people makes it even more pathetic.

Even Ellie was mad at him, ungrateful psycho bitch. They ruined that character too.

It really does a disservice to lesbians that they're trying to pander to. Oh Ellie's fully a lesbian now, after discovering it in the first game's DLC, she even has a girlfriend. Annndd.. she's instantly unlikeable, selfish, and ungreatful to those who're trying to help her. A bit like ''babe'', who keeps bleeting on about how Ellie can't go get revenge, because they have a family. Newsflash, It's not about you Dina, you're being selfish. And your "family", is some poor dead guy's baby that you cucked and shouted at when you got caught getting high and screwing when supposed to be on patrol. Dina is such a shit person too. But yay, lesbians, inclusion, i guess.

Joel and Jessie got done dirty. Ellie isn't Ellie no more.

 

[Maxwell Jacob Friedman]

Joel did nothing wrong in TLOU1 but TLOU2 was written in a way to make you pissed at him and root for pig Abby. The fact that it worked on some mindless people makes it even more pathetic.

Even Ellie was mad at him, ungrateful psycho bitch. They ruined that character too.

Joel knew he fucked up in a sense in part 1 if he felt he was fine with what he did he would have told more than Tommy. Joel pretty much took out an entire faction in his blind rage and damned the consequences. He knew it would catch up to him eventually to which he is not surprised when he is initially gunned down. If you think Joel did nothing wrong I would dare he goes around Jackson telling people that he took the chance for a vaccine and threw it away because he is selfishly motivated, some of Jackson would probably want his head as well not just for damming them to stay the same but also damn society as well.

Part 2 shows how its connected with part 1 that actions have consequences and if it was not this game Joel would eventually reap what he sewed. Ellie states to him in part 2 she believed her purpose was supposed to die there, to her that is what she wanted and Joel selfishly took that away from her but also society due to his own emotional duress and greed.

No one is asking you to root for Abby, on the contrary we are initially supposed to hate the fuck out of her and much how Ellie was screaming at her the game wanted us to do the same thing as well. Joel wasnt just taken away from Ellie, he was also taken away from us. HOWEVER this is where the game shines, because it didnt do the whole trope of bad guys bad, good guys good. Its all about perspective and while some people respect and agree with what Joel did, clearly not everyone did including Abby. Joel lost a daughter, Abby lost a father. They are literally the same character but different sides of the coin. They are intrinsically motivated by a shocking event that shapes them who they will be become. Abby in sense was a creation of Joel, if Joel did not do what he did, Abby would not have been out for revenge for years to come training her mind and body for the day she met Joel Miller. You dont have to sympathize with her, but knowing she did it for just no reason and that her reason was validated through her story is enough to prove that Joel much like all the other characters in TLOU, are a bunch of murdering psychopaths doing what they need to do to survive during a global catastrophic pandemic.

 

[Bit_Reactor]

Letting abby off with 0 consequences? I stopped reading there. You are delusional.
Abby lost everything. Her home, all get friends and loved ones and even her body to a degree.
She paid heavy price for her actions

Her home? From Joel. Which she got revenge for with little to no consequences.

Her Friends? She throws up at one death and the rest are barely spent any time on. Aside from the dude she cheated with there's little to any investment there on our part and they're all pretty horrible characters to begin with.

Her body? That was completely unrelated to the killing of Joel and the theme of "revenge" because it's from some randos out in a field.

Abby's "punishments" don't directly correlate with her actions against Ellie except for the killing of her "friends" and even there they miss a mark in the execution very often in the game despite putting a heavy focus on "named NPCS" and things of that nature. You spend half the game kind of ditching your own faction(getting their "leader" killed too without any shits given), so the loyalty aspect is also questionable as she abandons most of her "Friends" for the Lev Escort Mission. None of that adds up to a emotional payoff that works for me, because if abby can barely care about them why should I?

Abby has lost no more than Ellie, Joel, or any other member of the cast and yet she is meant to be the one who gets to go off and do her thing without consequences related to the actions she actually committed. The entire climax of the game has her being "crucified" just for being dumb enough to be in the wrong place at the wrong time in broad daylight, which is then used as a contrivance to make Abby weak enough so that someone like Ellie can 1v1 her.

It's pitiful that people just need to be shown "Bad thing happen" and then they just create a ton of connections to the plot and their own head canon does the rest. Even IF we want to take all those things into account, Ellie knows literally nothing about Abby beyond "I wanna kill her and I already killed her friends" and yet Ellie is treated as a player insert in the sense that she now realizes Abby isn't in the wrong, which she totally is. We can't say one person is responsible for the "cycle of revenge" and then go "but nah Abby deserved her kill." That's why the commentary on the themes is sloppy and lazy. It only works if you ignore all of Abby's story in TLOU2.

Abby gets to have Lev and go off on her quest and faces no judgment or actual debate or conversation with Ellie. For the talk of two female protagonists they barely discuss anything and for all Ellie knows Abby could be a raging murderer going off to kill again, and she gets to run off with Lev to fuck off and find the fireflies. Seems like she gets what she wants aside from the completely unrelated (and forced in) entrapment by the hillbilly squad.

 

[Madflavor]

I was against TLOU2 since it's announcement. TLOU ended perfectly and didn't need a sequel. If it did, they should've followed a totally different cast of characters. Killing Joel was the most obvious and predictable thing they could've done, I was shocked when it caused such an uproar.

 

[Keihart]

I think that gets to the heart of the problem. For me at least Joel didn't need forgiving, so that felt forced.
LOU2 trampled over the ambiguity of the first games ending, instead jamming you inside the head of Ellie/Abby, which is something that wasn't expected. It's a very subjective game whereas the first was much more objective.

There's really nothing wrong with doing that. My main problem was that it was heavy handed with it's message, the message was trite and the game went on to long. Very good game though.

You know, I've read lots of people say that it's heavy handed while a whole bunch of the people that criticizes it misses lots of no so subtle things. So in reality, maybe they were not heavy handed enough. Personally i think it was an alright middle ground, if not we would have even more people not getting the subtleties that aren't even that subtle.

One of my favorite examples it's the "bigot sandwich"...if you are actually paying attention, that scene it's included to portrait the fact that Ellie it's immature and has trouble getting riled up and not letting go, which later on it's mentioned by Joel himself which becomes a central part of Ellies development, very on the nose if you pay attention but most people get hanged up on "bigot" and scream SJW without ever making the connection.

 

[Jon Neu]

Did you miss ellie killing a pregnant woman. Causing Tommy to get shot in the face
Dina pregnancy.
Jess getting shot?

You sound almost like someone who didnt play the game. "Cuckman" should be a dead give away but I'm not sure

I didn’t miss any of those impressively written scenes with all of those super charismatic characters, but I miss how all of those things have anything to do with what I said in that post you quoted.

Maybe you can actually formulate some kind of thing resembling an actual argumentation?

I’m not really sure.

 

[MiguelItUp]

Honestly I never looked at any of the characters in the universe as "innocent." Each person was fighting to survive and fought for what they felt was right for them and the ones they cared about. Surely some folks did more wrong than others, but hardly anyone had completely clean hands.

 

[rofif]

Her home? From Joel. Which she got revenge for with little to no consequences.

Her Friends? She throws up at one death and the rest are barely spent any time on. Aside from the dude she cheated with there's little to any investment there on our part and they're all pretty horrible characters to begin with.

Her body? That was completely unrelated to the killing of Joel and the theme of "revenge" because it's from some randos out in a field.

Abby's "punishments" don't directly correlate with her actions against Ellie except for the killing of her "friends" and even there they miss a mark in the execution very often in the game despite putting a heavy focus on "named NPCS" and things of that nature. You spend half the game kind of ditching your own faction(getting their "leader" killed too without any shits given), so the loyalty aspect is also questionable as she abandons most of her "Friends" for the Lev Escort Mission. None of that adds up to a emotional payoff that works for me, because if abby can barely care about them why should I?

Abby has lost no more than Ellie, Joel, or any other member of the cast and yet she is meant to be the one who gets to go off and do her thing without consequences related to the actions she actually committed. The entire climax of the game has her being "crucified" just for being dumb enough to be in the wrong place at the wrong time in broad daylight, which is then used as a contrivance to make Abby weak enough so that someone like Ellie can 1v1 her.

It's pitiful that people just need to be shown "Bad thing happen" and then they just create a ton of connections to the plot and their own head canon does the rest. Even IF we want to take all those things into account, Ellie knows literally nothing about Abby beyond "I wanna kill her and I already killed her friends" and yet Ellie is treated as a player insert in the sense that she now realizes Abby isn't in the wrong, which she totally is. We can't say one person is responsible for the "cycle of revenge" and then go "but nah Abby deserved her kill." That's why the commentary on the themes is sloppy and lazy. It only works if you ignore all of Abby's story in TLOU2.

Abby gets to have Lev and go off on her quest and faces no judgment or actual debate or conversation with Ellie. For the talk of two female protagonists they barely discuss anything and for all Ellie knows Abby could be a raging murderer going off to kill again, and she gets to run off with Lev to fuck off and find the fireflies. Seems like she gets what she wants aside from the completely unrelated (and forced in) entrapment by the hillbilly squad.

You are nuts.
The entire theme of a game is that revenge is not worth it. Both have lost everything. How can you even argue that Abby loss was "not enough".
get outta here wtf

 

[Maxwell Jacob Friedman]

You mean that makes less sense than Ellie killing half the world population trying to find Abby and then sparing Abby's life in the last second because she saw Joel in a flashback and somehow "understood" killing her wasn't the "answer"?

That ending would actually make more sense and be more grounded in reality than the pretending to be deep but we don't have any sustance bullshit of TLOU2 ending.

Because she realized all she did was for nothing and that killing Abby wont bring Joel back, much how Abby realized killing Joel wont bring her father back. If anything Abby killing Joel gave her more long term issues not just with Ellie but also it gave her no emotional comfort and actually hurt her and her friends more in the end because some of them couldn't sleep properly after etc esp hearing his screams in their sleep etc. That's why Abby gravitates towards Lev and wants to help him because it is giving her a sense of purpose much like how Ellie gave Joel purpose.

Speaking of endings both games play the card of the main protagonist not fulling what they were set out to do. Joel killed hundreds of people protecting Ellie as cargo, all for her to be made a cure, deliver her to the fireflies etc and last minutes he changes his mind and murders even more people because of it. Both endings have the main character rejecting what they originally set out to do because of a different motive. Joel killing fireflies because he was selfish and wanted a daughter, and Ellie not killing Abby because it wouldn't bring back her father figure nor make her feel better about the situation.

 

[Bit_Reactor]

You are nuts.
The entire theme of a game is that revenge is not worth it. Both have lost everything. How can you even argue that Abby loss was "not enough".
get outta here wtf

I see many people attended the "nuh-uh" school of debate.

 

[Jon Neu]

One of my favorite examples it's the "bigot sandwich"...if you are actually paying attention, that scene it's included to portrait the fact that Ellie it's immature and has trouble getting riled up and not letting go, which later on it's mentioned by Joel himself which becomes a central part of Ellies development, very on the nose if you pay attention but most people get hanged up on "bigot" and scream SJW without ever making the connection.

We knew before the game was out that there was going to be a scene in which Ellie was going to be insulted for being lesbian because for someone like Cuckmann, that's the entire point of making her lesbian. That's why we also see some trans girl being "insulted" and oppressed for being trans. Or why we see a world full of strong independent ugly ass women, even pregnant ones! It's like a pattern, it really makes you think.

And surprise suprise, that scene of the big bad white male opressor happened and she bravely called that white old man a bigot sandwich. The fact that that scene also serves to portray other traits of Ellie's personality, doesn't invalidate the previous.

But it completely blows my mind that there are still apologists trying to claim the game isn't designed with a SJW mindset, literally contradicting what the creator of the game has publicly said. They can't concede that the game is SJW because they don't want the game to be tainted by the fact that is so full of political propaganda in the form of it's characters design and plots.

Everytime it's always the same with the SJW apologists, they accept that SJW exist but only in theory, never ever in reality, not even in such a fucking textbook case like this in which even the fucking creator it's telling you he designs his games with the political guidance of his idol Anita Sarkeesian in mind.

Because she realized all she did was for nothing and that killing Abby wont bring Joel back

Sorry, but that's literally retarded.

Ellie killed even babies but she continued searching, but then she stopped at the actual person who tortured Joel to death because she REALIZED that wouldn't bring Joel back.

I mean, sure, the characters aren't the most brightest characters ever, but I don't think Ellie thought killing Abby would resucitate Joel, not even for a second. She just wanted revenge, but she realized that revenge bad after killing half the world population and stopped conveniently at the actual person she was justified to kill.

Cuckmann needed some crappy subverting of expectations ending and also wanted to give his new mutant creation the plot armor to survive and be part of TLOU3. There's nothing realistic and believable in how Ellie acts at the end, it just doesn't make sense from any reasonable point of view.

 

[Maxwell Jacob Friedman]

I see many people attended the "nuh-uh" school of debate.

list the things you think Ellie lost and list the things Abby lost and we can compare which is which

 

[Maxwell Jacob Friedman]

We knew before the game was out that there was going to be a scene in which Ellie was going to be insulted for being lesbian because for someone like Cuckmann, that's the entire point of making her lesbian. That's why we also see some trans girl being "insulted" and oppressed for being trans. Or why we see a world full of strong independent ugly ass women, even pregnant ones! It's like a pattern, it really makes you think.

And surprise suprise, that scene of the big bad white male opressor happened and she bravely called that white old man a bigot sandwich. The fact that that scene also serves to portray other traits of Ellie's personality, doesn't invalidate the previous.

But it completely blows my mind that there are still apologists trying to claim the game isn't designed with a SJW mindset, literally contradicting what the creator of the game has publicly said. They can't condece that the game is SJW because they don't want the game to be tainted by the fact that is so full of political propaganda in the form of it's characters design and plots.

Everytime it's always the same with the SJW apologists, they accept that SJW exist but only in theory, never ever in reality, not even in such a fucking textbook case like this in which even the fucking creator it's telling you he designs his games with the political guidance of his idol Anita Sarkeesian in mind.



Sorry, but that's literally retarded.

Ellie killed even babies but she continued searching, but then she stopped at the actual person who tortured Joel to death because she REALIZED that wouldn't bring Joel back.

I mean, sure, the characters aren't the most brightest characters ever, but I don't think Ellie thought killing Abby would resucitate Joel, not even for a second. She just wanted revenge, but she realized that revenge bad after killing half the world population and stopped conveniently at the actual person she was justified to kill.

Cuckmann needed some crappy subverting of expectations ending and also wanted to give his new mutant creation the plot armor to survive and be part of TLOU3. There's nothing realistic and believable in how Ellie acts at the end, it just doesn't make sense from any reasonable point of view.

Already off to great start.....
Yes she killed a woman who happened to be pregnant but didnt know until after the fact the deed was already done. This also shows how never will ever amount to how Joel and Tommy are. Joel interrogates people in P1 flawlessly, Tommy as well in P2 and Ellie even discusses with Dina how its supposed to be done because they taught her. HOWEVER she is not Joel nor Tommy and will never live up to their shadow as much as she was taught because she doesnt have the full marts and killer instinct of those two men which is why she fucks it up and has both of them attack her to which she has to defend herself and kill Owen and Mel. Mel's death comes as a shock to her in which we actually hear Joel suddenly calling her for then Tommy to appear with jessie to console and comfort her and take her out of the situation.

And yes thats the whole point. The reason she goes searching for Abby again is because Tommy scolds her because he sure as hell cant go now with a bum leg but also missing an eye. She is also suffering from severe PTSD from joels death still and feels she needs to close the door on the situation first and foremost. For Ellie to come to a realization it didnt have to involve her death, it simply had to do with the fact that she overpowered Abby and was able to beat her to which then she thought this wont help with her personal feelings at all. The second final scene is Abby carrying Lev to the boat much like Joel carried Ellie away from the hospital, the parallels the final scenes have in the games resonate with Ellie. Beating Abby was enough justification that she could kill her but she doesnt have to kill her because again killing Abby will not take the pain away much like how Abby found no pleasure after killing Joel but found it in Lev. Ellie being by herself in the cabin and hanging up the guitar is her final act on finally moving on from Joel and officially letting go. If there is a Part 3 most likely it will delve into her trying to find purpose and meaning in her life because both times in part 1 and 2 it was taken away from her, now she has to find meaning in a different way.

Joel wa supposed to take Ellie to be the cure and the killing was supposed to stop, however on the reverse it started more killing thus his original goal in the game was not met either because there are no fireflies and there is no cure

 

[Bit_Reactor]

list the things you think Ellie lost and list the things Abby lost and we can compare which is which

Ellie had to sit and watch a friend die at like 10 years old. Which also brings me to the point that I think it's hilarious that she didn't develop PTSD until years later despite seeing horrifying shit on the daily as a literal child.

Ellie lost her father figure, her significant other, her "home" since we want to add that for some reason, her child, and the people she cares about.

Abby losing "more people" in terms of quantity in this game does not equate to "losing more" in terms of quality.

If I'm in a troop of soldiers and I lose 13 people that day, versus the next day my best friend who saved my life once dies, I'm not going to think the former is the bigger hit to my psyche, it's going to be the latter.

That doesn't mean YOU can't "think" that Abby lost more because more people "died" but Ellie literally had to deal with the shit Abby did last game with life threatening zombies, almost having her brain scooped out by idiots, and dealing with being the only immune person in the world (supposedly) and constantly having that secret eating away at her as she goes about her daily life, unable to let literally anyone in to be with her and/or deflecting via snark and anger.

And at the end of the story those losses are PERMANENT. She has no more father figure, no more relationship, no more child, and no more friends.

Now let's look at Abby.

She ALSO lost a father figure. She also lost a "home" since we're counting that. She loses "Friends" in the sense that they're barely more than coworkers who tolerate her existence, hell the preggo lady's last words to her are "You're a really shitty human being" essentially. Man I'm sure feeling the loss of that great character......... >_>

Most of Abby's entourage are meme factory exposable bodies in the vein that most horror uses in which they check off a box for a trope and that's it. You have leader guy. Comedy guy. Other Girl that isn't the main girl (pregnant edition), and some other randos.

She loses a faction she barely seems to care about (again she literally says NOTHING about the dude who leads the faction getting gunned down) which is hilarious because they go "Throw her in a cell!" and then like...the other girl just walks in and lets her out the very next scene. So there's not even "drama" there for that confrontation to provide any meaningful catharsis.

She gains Lev and tries to help them, while dealing with the war faction fight that she has no stakes in besides Lev. She gets caught by Randos in a field that have no connection to Ellie. Most of Abby's "tribulations" have no relation to her acts at the beginning of the game. They're just "bad things that humans do." Meaning the opposition between her and Ellie and the conflict I'm supposed to be feeling are all lip service, as there is no "come to jesus" moment and/or actual confrontation of ideals or philosophies between the two characters.

And even if Abby suffered HORRIBLE things from Fat Geralt and the rest of the hillbilly squad, it is not related to literally any of the story events that unfolded prior.

Imagine if Walter White was doing all these horrible things and then he gets jumped by never before seen gang members who tie him up to a stake and leave him for dead in the woods. We'd be invested in the CHARACTER of Walter White, but the actual drama of the event would be ultimately meaningless and it's just a random act by a random group of people.

Abby's "loss" is almost all lip service so she can go back to chilling with Lev, and that's where I think they dropped the ball the most with Abby. Abby should have had more conflict, and more meaningful character interactions to provide those payoffs for her loss and the final confrontation shouldn't have been a forced in random encounter with some fat hillbilly dude so that they could "nerf" her to be able to 1v1 Ellie.

Abby could have been an amazing character, they just didn't execute her properly for me. I'm glad that just showing "bad things happen" works for a lot of people. Hell a lot of people see people get sad in Kingdom Hearts and because of editing of music and cinematography it works on a lot of people. I wish I could just "enjoy" media that tells me what to feel. I just don't. I need meat. Story. Characters. Logic.

Abby kills Joel in the beginning, fucks a guy who has a kid on the way, goes on a reverse Joel quest with Lev (that I'm sure they thought was super clever), A bunch of people around them die and then she gets to goback to what she wanted to do in the very first scene: find the fireflies.

Her consequences at the end are rushed and forced and them trying to make her sympathetic at the end undermines what they claim to be doing with Abby in the story. If they REALLY thought Abby was a good character and REALLY thought there should be a moral debate between the two, then why make Abby a "oh no don't I won't fight you I just wanna leave" at the end?

The answer is there was no way a girl like Ellie was going to take down Abby without sniping her from across a field, so they came up with the hillbilly plot to make it look like Abby went through some shit and talk about some "cycle of violence" when the cycle of violence itself is almost entirely unrelated to Abby herself, and just "Shit happening" around her that she keeps getting put in the middle of.

I have no investment in Abby because her dad saving zebras and her terrible friends does nothing for me. I'm glad it does for some people, but it doesn't for me.

 

[SLB1904]

We knew before the game was out that there was going to be a scene in which Ellie was going to be insulted for being lesbian because for someone like Cuckmann, that's the entire point of making her lesbian. That's why we also see some trans girl being "insulted" and oppressed for being trans. Or why we see a world full of strong independent ugly ass women, even pregnant ones! It's like a pattern, it really makes you think.

And surprise suprise, that scene of the big bad white male opressor happened and she bravely called that white old man a bigot sandwich. The fact that that scene also serves to portray other traits of Ellie's personality, doesn't invalidate the previous.

But it completely blows my mind that there are still apologists trying to claim the game isn't designed with a SJW mindset, literally contradicting what the creator of the game has publicly said. They can't condece that the game is SJW because they don't want the game to be tainted by the fact that is so full of political propaganda in the form of it's characters design and plots.

Everytime it's always the same with the SJW apologists, they accept that SJW exist but only in theory, never ever in reality, not even in such a fucking textbook case like this in which even the fucking creator it's telling you he designs his games with the political guidance of his idol Anita Sarkeesian in mind.



Sorry, but that's literally retarded.

Ellie killed even babies but she continued searching, but then she stopped at the actual person who tortured Joel to death because she REALIZED that wouldn't bring Joel back.

I mean, sure, the characters aren't the most brightest characters ever, but I don't think Ellie thought killing Abby would resucitate Joel, not even for a second. She just wanted revenge, but she realized that revenge bad after killing half the world population and stopped conveniently at the actual person she was justified to kill.

Cuckmann needed some crappy subverting of expectations ending and also wanted to give his new mutant creation the plot armor to survive and be part of TLOU3. There's nothing realistic and believable in how Ellie acts at the end, it just doesn't make sense from any reasonable point of view.

Thank you for proving my point. I was about to reply your other post but reading this nonsense with a a bunch of incorrect information. Its clearly that you didnt come close to this game.

 

[rofif]

Ellie had to sit and watch a friend die at like 10 years old. Which also brings me to the point that I think it's hilarious that she didn't develop PTSD until years later despite seeing horrifying shit on the daily as a literal child.

Ellie lost her father figure, her significant other, her "home" since we want to add that for some reason, her child, and the people she cares about.

Abby losing "more people" in terms of quantity in this game does not equate to "losing more" in terms of quality.

If I'm in a troop of soldiers and I lose 13 people that day, versus the next day my best friend who saved my life once dies, I'm not going to think the former is the bigger hit to my psyche, it's going to be the latter.

That doesn't mean YOU can't "think" that Abby lost more because more people "died" but Ellie literally had to deal with the shit Abby did last game with life threatening zombies, almost having her brain scooped out by idiots, and dealing with being the only immune person in the world (supposedly) and constantly having that secret eating away at her as she goes about her daily life, unable to let literally anyone in to be with her and/or deflecting via snark and anger.

And at the end of the story those losses are PERMANENT. She has no more father figure, no more relationship, no more child, and no more friends.

Now let's look at Abby.

She ALSO lost a father figure. She also lost a "home" since we're counting that. She loses "Friends" in the sense that they're barely more than coworkers who tolerate her existence, hell the preggo lady's last words to her are "You're a really shitty human being" essentially. Man I'm sure feeling the loss of that great character......... >_>

Most of Abby's entourage are meme factory exposable bodies in the vein that most horror uses in which they check off a box for a trope and that's it. You have leader guy. Comedy guy. Other Girl that isn't the main girl (pregnant edition), and some other randos.

She loses a faction she barely seems to care about (again she literally says NOTHING about the dude who leads the faction getting gunned down) which is hilarious because they go "Throw her in a cell!" and then like...the other girl just walks in and lets her out the very next scene. So there's not even "drama" there for that confrontation to provide any meaningful catharsis.

She gains Lev and tries to help them, while dealing with the war faction fight that she has no stakes in besides Lev. She gets caught by Randos in a field that have no connection to Ellie. Most of Abby's "tribulations" have no relation to her acts at the beginning of the game. They're just "bad things that humans do." Meaning the opposition between her and Ellie and the conflict I'm supposed to be feeling are all lip service, as there is no "come to jesus" moment and/or actual confrontation of ideals or philosophies between the two characters.

And even if Abby suffered HORRIBLE things from Fat Geralt and the rest of the hillbilly squad, it is not related to literally any of the story events that unfolded prior.

Imagine if Walter White was doing all these horrible things and then he gets jumped by never before seen gang members who tie him up to a stake and leave him for dead in the woods. We'd be invested in the CHARACTER of Walter White, but the actual drama of the event would be ultimately meaningless and it's just a random act by a random group of people.

Abby's "loss" is almost all lip service so she can go back to chilling with Lev, and that's where I think they dropped the ball the most with Abby. Abby should have had more conflict, and more meaningful character interactions to provide those payoffs for her loss and the final confrontation shouldn't have been a forced in random encounter with some fat hillbilly dude so that they could "nerf" her to be able to 1v1 Ellie.

Abby could have been an amazing character, they just didn't execute her properly for me. I'm glad that just showing "bad things happen" works for a lot of people. Hell a lot of people see people get sad in Kingdom Hearts and because of editing of music and cinematography it works on a lot of people. I wish I could just "enjoy" media that tells me what to feel. I just don't. I need meat. Story. Characters. Logic.

Abby kills Joel in the beginning, fucks a guy who has a kid on the way, goes on a reverse Joel quest with Lev (that I'm sure they thought was super clever), A bunch of people around them die and then she gets to goback to what she wanted to do in the very first scene: find the fireflies.

Her consequences at the end are rushed and forced and them trying to make her sympathetic at the end undermines what they claim to be doing with Abby in the story. If they REALLY thought Abby was a good character and REALLY thought there should be a moral debate between the two, then why make Abby a "oh no don't I won't fight you I just wanna leave" at the end?

The answer is there was no way a girl like Ellie was going to take down Abby without sniping her from across a field, so they came up with the hillbilly plot to make it look like Abby went through some shit and talk about some "cycle of violence" when the cycle of violence itself is almost entirely unrelated to Abby herself, and just "Shit happening" around her that she keeps getting put in the middle of.

I have no investment in Abby because her dad saving zebras and her terrible friends does nothing for me. I'm glad it does for some people, but it doesn't for me.

He was joking. Nobody wants you to post the wall

 

[Bit_Reactor]

He was joking. Nobody wants you to post the wall

No u

 

[sainraja]

Doesn't really matter, he halted the progress of what very well could have been the cure years later. That one group may have not done it, but a group after the could have used that knowledge to get to a cure.

Its not arguing it was 100%, it saying what could have been the START of them getting the cure and learning more about the virus was lost and years of progress is now pushed back. Regardless if you feel they would have done it or not, we have to at least concede that what ever they would have learned, they didn't because of him.

Well, they probably wouldn't have learned much based on their chosen method of going for the cure. They were ready to move ahead with a procedure that wasn't going to guarantee a cure. The first thing they should have focused on (disclaimer: in my opinion anyway), should have been to understand why was Ellie didn't get infected.

As for the job Joel was asked to do, well, he was going to deliver Ellie to the fireflies for the cure. He didn't know when he took the job that she would have had to die for it (and her needed to die wasn't a sure thing so Joel did the right thing by saving Ellie.)

 

[Ulysses 31]

He doesn't. She also doesn't need to be too stealthy when gun shots are far away. The problem is not the way it was written, it's your inability to understand how people can hear sound far away.

So as she gets closer she does need to get more stealthy because she's at a big disadvantage with only her knife. You seem to forget that Tommy isn't deaf and is cunning with how he took out Manny.

 

[sainraja]

Ellie had to sit and watch a friend die at like 10 years old. Which also brings me to the point that I think it's hilarious that she didn't develop PTSD until years later despite seeing horrifying shit on the daily as a literal child.

Ellie lost her father figure, her significant other, her "home" since we want to add that for some reason, her child, and the people she cares about.

Abby losing "more people" in terms of quantity in this game does not equate to "losing more" in terms of quality.

If I'm in a troop of soldiers and I lose 13 people that day, versus the next day my best friend who saved my life once dies, I'm not going to think the former is the bigger hit to my psyche, it's going to be the latter.

That doesn't mean YOU can't "think" that Abby lost more because more people "died" but Ellie literally had to deal with the shit Abby did last game with life threatening zombies, almost having her brain scooped out by idiots, and dealing with being the only immune person in the world (supposedly) and constantly having that secret eating away at her as she goes about her daily life, unable to let literally anyone in to be with her and/or deflecting via snark and anger.

And at the end of the story those losses are PERMANENT. She has no more father figure, no more relationship, no more child, and no more friends.

Now let's look at Abby.

She ALSO lost a father figure. She also lost a "home" since we're counting that. She loses "Friends" in the sense that they're barely more than coworkers who tolerate her existence, hell the preggo lady's last words to her are "You're a really shitty human being" essentially. Man I'm sure feeling the loss of that great character......... >_>

Most of Abby's entourage are meme factory exposable bodies in the vein that most horror uses in which they check off a box for a trope and that's it. You have leader guy. Comedy guy. Other Girl that isn't the main girl (pregnant edition), and some other randos.

She loses a faction she barely seems to care about (again she literally says NOTHING about the dude who leads the faction getting gunned down) which is hilarious because they go "Throw her in a cell!" and then like...the other girl just walks in and lets her out the very next scene. So there's not even "drama" there for that confrontation to provide any meaningful catharsis.

She gains Lev and tries to help them, while dealing with the war faction fight that she has no stakes in besides Lev. She gets caught by Randos in a field that have no connection to Ellie. Most of Abby's "tribulations" have no relation to her acts at the beginning of the game. They're just "bad things that humans do." Meaning the opposition between her and Ellie and the conflict I'm supposed to be feeling are all lip service, as there is no "come to jesus" moment and/or actual confrontation of ideals or philosophies between the two characters.

And even if Abby suffered HORRIBLE things from Fat Geralt and the rest of the hillbilly squad, it is not related to literally any of the story events that unfolded prior.

Imagine if Walter White was doing all these horrible things and then he gets jumped by never before seen gang members who tie him up to a stake and leave him for dead in the woods. We'd be invested in the CHARACTER of Walter White, but the actual drama of the event would be ultimately meaningless and it's just a random act by a random group of people.

Abby's "loss" is almost all lip service so she can go back to chilling with Lev, and that's where I think they dropped the ball the most with Abby. Abby should have had more conflict, and more meaningful character interactions to provide those payoffs for her loss and the final confrontation shouldn't have been a forced in random encounter with some fat hillbilly dude so that they could "nerf" her to be able to 1v1 Ellie.

Abby could have been an amazing character, they just didn't execute her properly for me. I'm glad that just showing "bad things happen" works for a lot of people. Hell a lot of people see people get sad in Kingdom Hearts and because of editing of music and cinematography it works on a lot of people. I wish I could just "enjoy" media that tells me what to feel. I just don't. I need meat. Story. Characters. Logic.

Abby kills Joel in the beginning, fucks a guy who has a kid on the way, goes on a reverse Joel quest with Lev (that I'm sure they thought was super clever), A bunch of people around them die and then she gets to goback to what she wanted to do in the very first scene: find the fireflies.

Her consequences at the end are rushed and forced and them trying to make her sympathetic at the end undermines what they claim to be doing with Abby in the story. If they REALLY thought Abby was a good character and REALLY thought there should be a moral debate between the two, then why make Abby a "oh no don't I won't fight you I just wanna leave" at the end?

The answer is there was no way a girl like Ellie was going to take down Abby without sniping her from across a field, so they came up with the hillbilly plot to make it look like Abby went through some shit and talk about some "cycle of violence" when the cycle of violence itself is almost entirely unrelated to Abby herself, and just "Shit happening" around her that she keeps getting put in the middle of.

I have no investment in Abby because her dad saving zebras and her terrible friends does nothing for me. I'm glad it does for some people, but it doesn't for me.

I think you have done a very good job highlighting what didn't work about the Last of US 2. The game just never fully embraced what it could have been.

 

[Neff]

it completely blows my mind that there are still apologists trying to claim the game isn't designed with a SJW mindset

I have literally never heard anyone say this in all the time I've spent discussing the game.

 

[Bit_Reactor]

I have literally never heard anyone say this in all the time I've spent discussing the game.

I actually think part of the problem with the discourse of the game is so many people spouting "SJW" and "ABby is trans" and other stuff made the discussion of the plot and its characters so toxic to begin with. The well for debate was poisoned the minute those cutscenes leaked. Ever since then it's been an uphill battle to discuss it.

 

[Neff]

The well for debate was poisoned the minute those cutscenes leaked. Ever since then it's been an uphill battle to discuss it.

People tend to go instantly on the defensive/offensive when arch-left or arch-right politics loom into view. You're right, it sabotages rational discussion from the outset and colours objectivity because people feel like they need to go to war for their side on principle.

 

[bukowski81]

Let's say even cure was possible, how the fuck are they gonna distribute this to entire human race? currently governments are having hard time distributing vaccine for COVID let alone small group of Fireflies with barely any resource. Also I can guess the "cure" only work for people who recently got bitten, not people who are already infected and beyond saving......this just a pipe dream not worth sacrificing life over it.

This is nonsense. Of course it would only work on the people that hasn't been infected yet, its something that will stop humans from turning, and that eventually will stop the virus. And of course it was going to be hard to distribute it, it will maybe take 20 years or 50 years or whatever. But it is a path to get back to normal.

As things stand, humanity is clearly on a path to extinction. In a matter of few years it went from having cities with millions and millions of people to a few towns with hundreds of people. Can't believe some people say that humanity was thriving, no they were not, humanity is at the brink of extinction, and the few lucky that live in a gated town can't go out because chances are high they will end up becoming infected.

People try to minimize the state of the world in the games just to justify Joel.

 

[Ulysses 31]

This is nonsense. Of course it would only work on the people that hasn't been infected yet, its something that will stop humans from turning, and that eventually will stop the virus. And of course it was going to be hard to distribute it, it will maybe take 20 years or 50 years or whatever. But it is a path to get back to normal.

As things stand, humanity is clearly on a path to extinction. In a matter of few years it went from having cities with millions and millions of people to a few towns with hundreds of people. Can't believe some people say that humanity was thriving, no they were not, humanity is at the brink of extinction, and the few lucky that live in a gated town can't go out because chances are high they will end up becoming infected.

People try to minimize the state of the world in the games just to justify Joel.

We have to make some big assumptions about the Fireflies, that they can keep making vaccines, that they can keep delivering it, that they won't ever use it as leverage. The vaccine could become a source of conflict with factions willing to fight over it.

In TLUO2 the main cause of death was human on human violence rather than infected on human so it would seem human settlements were able to cope with the infected, they even have clearers for hordes as stated in the beginning. If different factions can start wars with each other over territories then it doesn't look like humanity is struggling to survive the infected.

People try to overstate the Joel doomed the world narrative.

Now if there was information about spore territories expanding and reducing liveable areas for humans then that would make Joel's actions in TLUO1 more tragic.

 

[Keihart]

We knew before the game was out that there was going to be a scene in which Ellie was going to be insulted for being lesbian because for someone like Cuckmann, that's the entire point of making her lesbian. That's why we also see some trans girl being "insulted" and oppressed for being trans. Or why we see a world full of strong independent ugly ass women, even pregnant ones! It's like a pattern, it really makes you think.

And surprise suprise, that scene of the big bad white male opressor happened and she bravely called that white old man a bigot sandwich. The fact that that scene also serves to portray other traits of Ellie's personality, doesn't invalidate the previous.

But it completely blows my mind that there are still apologists trying to claim the game isn't designed with a SJW mindset, literally contradicting what the creator of the game has publicly said. They can't concede that the game is SJW because they don't want the game to be tainted by the fact that is so full of political propaganda in the form of it's characters design and plots.

Everytime it's always the same with the SJW apologists, they accept that SJW exist but only in theory, never ever in reality, not even in such a fucking textbook case like this in which even the fucking creator it's telling you he designs his games with the political guidance of his idol Anita Sarkeesian in mind.



Sorry, but that's literally retarded.

Ellie killed even babies but she continued searching, but then she stopped at the actual person who tortured Joel to death because she REALIZED that wouldn't bring Joel back.

I mean, sure, the characters aren't the most brightest characters ever, but I don't think Ellie thought killing Abby would resucitate Joel, not even for a second. She just wanted revenge, but she realized that revenge bad after killing half the world population and stopped conveniently at the actual person she was justified to kill.

Cuckmann needed some crappy subverting of expectations ending and also wanted to give his new mutant creation the plot armor to survive and be part of TLOU3. There's nothing realistic and believable in how Ellie acts at the end, it just doesn't make sense from any reasonable point of view.

Neus nothing.

 

[Bit_Reactor]

This is nonsense. Of course it would only work on the people that hasn't been infected yet, its something that will stop humans from turning, and that eventually will stop the virus. And of course it was going to be hard to distribute it, it will maybe take 20 years or 50 years or whatever. But it is a path to get back to normal.

As things stand, humanity is clearly on a path to extinction. In a matter of few years it went from having cities with millions and millions of people to a few towns with hundreds of people. Can't believe some people say that humanity was thriving, no they were not, humanity is at the brink of extinction, and the few lucky that live in a gated town can't go out because chances are high they will end up becoming infected.

People try to minimize the state of the world in the games just to justify Joel.

The issue is they could have really drove home the possible evil of "preventing the world from a cure" if a core part of the plot line actually dealt with say, someone turning or dying from something Ellie has survivor's guilt over. The issue is the plot of TLOU2 happens exactly the same way whether humanity is vaccinated or not. The same people would still die because it's all related to human action, so the Joel demonization through the vaccination defense is shaky at best.

If the game wanted to drive home "man think of how much better things would be if we had a vaccine" they can't then sideline the big threat of being turned while everyone goes on a murder quest. THat's why the people who like Joel aren't really convinced of this plot line.

For Joel's taking of Ellie to mean something you have to have a circumstance that would be prevented by a vaccine. They would still have the raid at JAcksonville, Ellie and Fam would still live in a cabin in the goods, and all the people who died would still be dead. The issue is the vaccine is not even approached as a real topic in the characters in the game because most if not all of the issues are only there because Joel "killed people" not "Joel kept humanity from a cure."

The vaccination is a by product of a plot line that can be used to go "yeah they could have vaccinated people" but because the vaccine has little to no weight on the story of TLOU2 and how it progresses, a lot of people don't really give that defense a second look, and neither do the writers.

Even if they had a vaccine, you'd still have the pre-existing zombies means you'd still have gated towns, still have people who can't go out, and the only change would be people could go into spore territory. (which even the game treats as something you can just "wipe off" of a mask which is...definitely not realistic in the slightest lol.

 

[SLB1904]

The issue is they could have really drove home the possible evil of "preventing the world from a cure" if a core part of the plot line actually dealt with say, someone turning or dying from something Ellie has survivor's guilt over. The issue is the plot of TLOU2 happens exactly the same way whether humanity is vaccinated or not. The same people would still die because it's all related to human action, so the Joel demonization through the vaccination defense is shaky at best.

If the game wanted to drive home "man think of how much better things would be if we had a vaccine" they can't then sideline the big threat of being turned while everyone goes on a murder quest. THat's why the people who like Joel aren't really convinced of this plot line.

For Joel's taking of Ellie to mean something you have to have a circumstance that would be prevented by a vaccine. They would still have the raid at JAcksonville, Ellie and Fam would still live in a cabin in the goods, and all the people who died would still be dead. The issue is the vaccine is not even approached as a real topic in the characters in the game because most if not all of the issues are only there because Joel "killed people" not "Joel kept humanity from a cure."

The vaccination is a by product of a plot line that can be used to go "yeah they could have vaccinated people" but because the vaccine has little to no weight on the story of TLOU2 and how it progresses, a lot of people don't really give that defense a second look, and neither do the writers.

Even if they had a vaccine, you'd still have the pre-existing zombies means you'd still have gated towns, still have people who can't go out, and the only change would be people could go into spore territory. (which even the game treats as something you can just "wipe off" of a mask which is...definitely not realistic in the slightest lol.

Because the plot of tlous 2 is not about the vacine anymore. Is about Joel's death. Is about ellie revenge spree and Joel's actions catching up with him.

 

[Keihart]

The issue is they could have really drove home the possible evil of "preventing the world from a cure" if a core part of the plot line actually dealt with say, someone turning or dying from something Ellie has survivor's guilt over. The issue is the plot of TLOU2 happens exactly the same way whether humanity is vaccinated or not. The same people would still die because it's all related to human action, so the Joel demonization through the vaccination defense is shaky at best.

If the game wanted to drive home "man think of how much better things would be if we had a vaccine" they can't then sideline the big threat of being turned while everyone goes on a murder quest. THat's why the people who like Joel aren't really convinced of this plot line.

For Joel's taking of Ellie to mean something you have to have a circumstance that would be prevented by a vaccine. They would still have the raid at JAcksonville, Ellie and Fam would still live in a cabin in the goods, and all the people who died would still be dead. The issue is the vaccine is not even approached as a real topic in the characters in the game because most if not all of the issues are only there because Joel "killed people" not "Joel kept humanity from a cure."

The vaccination is a by product of a plot line that can be used to go "yeah they could have vaccinated people" but because the vaccine has little to no weight on the story of TLOU2 and how it progresses, a lot of people don't really give that defense a second look, and neither do the writers.

Even if they had a vaccine, you'd still have the pre-existing zombies means you'd still have gated towns, still have people who can't go out, and the only change would be people could go into spore territory. (which even the game treats as something you can just "wipe off" of a mask which is...definitely not realistic in the slightest lol.

You know there is a chapter in part 2 specifically for this right? It's the chapter when Joel goes with Ellie to get some guitar strings and at the end of the chapter they have some kind of confrontation while discussing the case of the kids that escaped Jacksonville.
" I wish things were different, but they ain't"

 

[Bit_Reactor]

Because the plot of tlous 2 is not about the vacine anymore. Is about Joel's death. Is about ellie revenge spree and Joel's actions catching up with him.

Well yeah that's what I'm saying.

The issue with people holding the vaccine against Joel is that even the writers seem to not give a shit about the vaccine at this point. It's an abandoned plot point.

If the writers or characters don't care, I usually don't care.

You know there is a chapter in part 2 specifically for this right? It's the chapter when Joel goes with Ellie to get some guitar strings and at the end of the chapter they have some kind of confrontation while discussing the case of the kids that escaped Jacksonville.
" I wish things were different, but they ain't"

Again, a scene "discussing how things could be different" is not going to change the plot of TLOU2. The plot of TLOU2 happens because Joel Murdered Abby's father. Not because he kept the world from a vaccine. Therefore the vaccine argument is (at best) tangential to the other issues with Joel.

I'm not even saying Joel should have lived (I wanted him to die and it mean something) I'm saying that the game itself glances over the vaccine in its core plot line, and a flashback for Ellie's guilt doesn't change anything that goes on in the plot. The same people would be dead. The same zombies would be out there, and the same problems would occur.

That's arguably why they didn't address the cure or vaccine in the first place, because if there WAS one it has such a little impact on the world aside from bites and spores. And if you're getting bitten by a clicker nine times out of ten you're already screwed.

I'm not saying the vaccine is irrelevant in the entire scheme of things, I'm saying the plot line of TLOU2 happens the exact same way whether there was one or not.

I will concede I forgot they were bitten and not just killed by zombies, so there is "a scene" for it so that's my bad, but the core plot line happens the same way, and that's why the "He kept people from a cure" defense is shaky. Not only because there was only a CHANCE for one, but because it doesn't have real impact on the outcome of TLOU2. Two kids leaving to go adventure in a zombie infested world would have still had zombies in it, and it still would have probably ended in them being dead eventually. But that's conjecture of course.

 

[bukowski81]

We have to make some big assumptions about the Fireflies, that they can keep making vaccines, that they can keep delivering it, that they won't ever use it as leverage. The vaccine could become a source of conflict with factions willing to fight over it.

In TLUO2 the main cause of death was human on human violence rather than infected on human so it would seem human settlements were able to cope with the infected, they even have clearers for hordes as stated in the beginning. If different factions can start wars with each other over territories then it doesn't look like humanity is struggling to survive the infected.

People try to overstate the Joel doomed the world narrative.

Now if there was information about spore territories expanding and reducing liveable areas for humans then that would make Joel's actions in TLUO1 more tragic.

No mate, you are the one making assumptions. The first game is very clear. At that point the majority of the world population has been infected. The best hope to find a vaccine is Ellie. Joel stopped that. There is no ambiguity in that , there are not what ifs, thats what the first game is about. You can simpatize and understand why joel did what he did, that's fine, that doesn't change the fact that Ellie was the best hope of finding a cure and joel prevented that from happening.

And you saying that the main cause of death is conflict between humans, unless the game says that and I don't remember, there is absolutely no reason to believe that. A local conflict is.not indication of that at all. Again, the vast majority of the world is unpopulated, were there where millions of people now there are just small gated settlements. Humanity is not only struggling to survive the infected, it has already failed, the vast majority of the human population is already dead.

There is no need to change the game just to fit certain narrative and justify certain actions. The game is what it is, and what it is is a post apocalyptic world where humanity is on the brink of extinction and there is no cure on sight to end what put them in that position on the first place.

 

[Blond]

Yeah, that's why a little girl murders half the USA population for revenge and after being a complete psycho mass murderer she suddenly and conveniently realizes in the last second that revenge bad and spares the actual person she was justified to kill, saving herself from becoming a monster. Because you know, she would only be a monster by killing that person, all the people she killed before (babies included) just don't matter.

But we got the beautiful epiphany of a brutally violent mass murderer having deep morals and empathy for other brutally violent mass murderer.

The game literally shows you that Ellie can't forgive an old white man for calling her a dyke, but she can forgive the person who tortured her surrogate father to death and killed his friend.

It really makes you think.

You mean like the beautiful epiphany of Joel realizing that he has a heart and shoving a guys head into the counter to take a girl who was the only hope humanity had just so he can feel good about himself after he spent 20 something years destroying everyone’s lives around him? Damn so deep.

 

[Keihart]

Well yeah that's what I'm saying.

The issue with people holding the vaccine against Joel is that even the writers seem to not give a shit about the vaccine at this point. It's an abandoned plot point.

If the writers or characters don't care, I usually don't care.


Again, a scene "discussing how things could be different" is not going to change the plot of TLOU2. The plot of TLOU2 happens because Joel Murdered Abby's father. Not because he kept the world from a vaccine. Therefore the vaccine argument is (at best) tangential to the other issues with Joel.

I'm not even saying Joel should have lived (I wanted him to die and it mean something) I'm saying that the game itself glances over the vaccine in its core plot line, and a flashback for Ellie's guilt doesn't change anything that goes on in the plot. The same people would be dead. The same zombies would be out there, and the same problems would occur.

That's arguably why they didn't address the cure or vaccine in the first place, because if there WAS one it has such a little impact on the world aside from bites and spores. And if you're getting bitten by a clicker nine times out of ten you're already screwed.

I'm not saying the vaccine is irrelevant in the entire scheme of things, I'm saying the plot line of TLOU2 happens the exact same way whether there was one or not.

I will concede I forgot they were bitten and not just killed by zombies, so there is "a scene" for it so that's my bad, but the core plot line happens the same way, and that's why the "He kept people from a cure" defense is shaky. Not only because there was only a CHANCE for one, but because it doesn't have real impact on the outcome of TLOU2.

Doesn't really matter what a vaccine would REALLY do, what matters it's what Ellie and Joel think of it and that is discussed in the scene i linked, Ellie clearly thinks that a vaccine would help and Joel does too to a certain degree which makes him feel guilty and hide the truth.

 

[Maxwell Jacob Friedman]

Well yeah that's what I'm saying.

The issue with people holding the vaccine against Joel is that even the writers seem to not give a shit about the vaccine at this point. It's an abandoned plot point.

If the writers or characters don't care, I usually don't care.

They do care about the vaccine to a point however the plot for this game is hate. And it was the chance of a vaccine that ignited the hate theme for this game with the death of Abbys father thus the cycle of violence and lust for revenge both characters have and develop in the plot of the game. The vaccine talk is still there because ellie wanted to die on that table and be hope for humanity, also it could be she is hurt so much from Joel lying to her that she wish she died on that table instead of having her "dad" lie to her year after year

 

[Bit_Reactor]

Doesn't really matter what a vaccine would REALLY do, what matters it's what Ellie and Joel think of it and that is discussed in the scene i linked, Ellie clearly thinks that a vaccine would help and Joel does too to a certain degree which makes him feel guilty and hide the truth.

Right but I think we're getting in the weeds here.

The argument is typically "Joel is bad"
The reason given is: "He kept everyone from a cure!"

But the reality of that situation is he kept people from MAYBE finding a vaccine that still would not work outside of the communities of non-infected.

The reason people often dispute this point as a demerit against Joel is BECAUSE it (seemingly) has so little bearing on not only the world it's in, but also the plot of TLOU2.

People say Joel did a terrible thing and kept the world from a cure but two random kids being dead from a bite isn't the same as a main character plot line focused around it and/or the fact that the plot happens no matter what the context is so long as he is the one who killed Abby's dad.

So when people go "JOEL IS BAD BECAUSE HE KEPT PEOPLE FROM A VACCINE" the issue is the plot of the sequel does very little with that. It has in passing some no name characters who die that I completely forgot existed because the rest of the story is focused on murderquest and "revenge=bad." All of which happen with/or without the vaccine. That's all.

They do care about the vaccine to a point however the plot for this game is hate. And it was the chance of a vaccine that ignited the hate theme for this game with the death of Abbys father thus the cycle of violence and lust for revenge both characters have and develop in the plot of the game. The vaccine talk is still there because ellie wanted to die on that table and be hope for humanity, also it could be she is hurt so much from Joel lying to her that she wish she died on that table instead of having her "dad" lie to her year after year

Again, Ellie having survivor's guilt IS a plotline, but it doesn't dictate and/or change any of the outcome of TLOU2.

I'm speaking specifically to the people who try to demonize Joel for the CHANCE at a vaccine that would have (to some) minimal impact on changing the world, and the sequel does nothing aside from INTERNAL struggle to show how that might have changed things, sans for two randos.

I'm saying the VACCINE ITSELF has no bearing on what happens in TLOU2. The same events would transpire so long as Joel killed Abby's father. It only informs some of the internal debates Ellie and Joel has. That's why the debate of a vaccine is kind of glanced over in the discussion of Joel as a character, because aside from internal drama, when you look at the world of TLOU2, when you look at what we get in terms of plot, and when you look at the world already "functioning" as much as one can in a post apocalypse, the game doesn't make a strong case for a vaccine being that big of a game changer aside from spores and bites, which still wouldn't effect the day to day of anyone in Jackson. They would still need guns, still need to play it safe.

If I'm fighting rabid dogs with rabies and I'm vaccinated versus not vaccinated, it won't matter. If I get tore into by a dog I have bigger problems on my hands. If I get bit I'm screwed, but if I go into a fight unprepared I deserve what's coming to me. I would be the one to blame for not being prepared for going into a rabid dog infested yard. I think if you're in a situation where there's a storm of zombies like in the intro to TLOU2, a bite is the least of your concerns. But again, this is all to go back to JOEL and the plotline of TLOU2.

Yes a vaccine MIGHt have saved two irrelevant characters. YES a vaccine MIGHT have been made. YES a vaccine MIGHT have even been made between the two games. But the events of TLOU2 transpire so long as Joel shoots that doctor, so saying Joel is bad because vaccine carries less weight to me and others, because it was not a sure thing and it doesn't even change TLOU2's events.

 

[Jon Neu]

Yes she killed a woman who happened to be pregnant but didnt know until after the fact the deed was already done.

Still, she learned she killed a baby and still went inmediately on the hunt for Abby anyways.

A super convenient flashback of Joel just before she kills Abby so she suddenly realizes revenge was actually the friends we make along the way it's just plain bad writing.

This also shows how never will ever amount to how Joel and Tommy are. Joel interrogates people in P1 flawlessly, Tommy as well in P2 and Ellie even discusses with Dina how its supposed to be done because they taught her. HOWEVER she is not Joel nor Tommy and will never live up to their shadow as much as she was taught because she doesnt have the full marts and killer instinct of those two men which is why she fucks it up and has both of them attack her to which she has to defend herself and kill Owen and Mel.

Yet she infiltrates the WLF and tortures Nora while the WLF can do nothing to stop her.

For Ellie to come to a realization it didnt have to involve her death, it simply had to do with the fact that she overpowered Abby

She had to overpower a malnourished and on the verge of death Abby to realize that revenge bad?

2Deep4you.

The second final scene is Abby carrying Lev to the boat much like Joel carried Ellie away from the hospital, the parallels the final scenes have in the games resonate with Ellie.

So the same person that doesn't give a fuck that she killed the unborn baby of Abby's friend and still goes inmediately after Abby to kill her, suddenly has her heart softened because Abby has another friend (not pregnant this time).

Impressively logical.

Beating Abby was enough justification that she could kill her but she doesnt have to kill her because again killing Abby will not take the pain away much like how Abby found no pleasure after killing Joel but found it in Lev

Nothing will resucitate Joel, but you know what actually could bring the most sense of closure? Killing the person who tortured Joel to death in front of your eyes, the person you have been on the hunt and for which you have killed, tortured and brought so many people to die for. The person that also killed that asian dude friend of yours that literally saved your life and was killed trying to protect you.

That asian dude they cuckolded so they could have a baby was killed because of Ellie's revenge quest, the fact that it was all literally for nothing because Ellie suddenly goes from psycho mass murderer to Mahatma Ghandi in seconds, is just Ellie and Dina spitting in the grave of that poor guy and not giving a single fuck about it.

I have literally never heard anyone say this in all the time I've spent discussing the game.

In this thread alone there's already some of the usual suspects.

 

[SLB1904]

Right but I think we're getting in the weeds here.

The argument is typically "Joel is bad"
The reason given is: "He kept everyone from a cure!"

But the reality of that situation is he kept people from MAYBE finding a vaccine that still would not work outside of the communities of non-infected.

The reason people often dispute this point as a demerit against Joel is BECAUSE it (seemingly) has so little bearing on not only the world it's in, but also the plot of TLOU2.

People say Joel did a terrible thing and kept the world from a cure but two random kids being dead from a bite isn't the same as a main character plot line focused around it and/or the fact that the plot happens no matter what the context is so long as he is the one who killed Abby's dad.

So when people go "JOEL IS BAD BECAUSE HE KEPT PEOPLE FROM A VACCINE" the issue is the plot of the sequel does very little with that. It has in passing some no name characters who die that I completely forgot existed because the rest of the story is focused on murderquest and "revenge=bad." All of which happen with/or without the vaccine. That's all.


Again, Ellie having survivor's guilt IS a plotline, but it doesn't dictate and/or change any of the outcome of TLOU2.

I'm speaking specifically to the people who try to demonize Joel for the CHANCE at a vaccine that would have (to some) minimal impact on changing the world, and the sequel does nothing aside from INTERNAL struggle to show how that might have changed things, sans for two randos.

I'm saying the VACCINE ITSELF has no bearing on what happens in TLOU2. The same events would transpire so long as Joel killed Abby's father. It only informs some of the internal debates Ellie and Joel has. That's why the debate of a vaccine is kind of glanced over in the discussion of Joel as a character, because aside from internal drama, when you look at the world of TLOU2, when you look at what we get in terms of plot, and when you look at the world already "functioning" as much as one can in a post apocalypse, the game doesn't make a strong case for a vaccine being that big of a game changer aside from spores and bites, which still wouldn't effect the day to day of anyone in Jackson. They would still need guns, still need to play it safe.

If I'm fighting rabid dogs with rabies and I'm vaccinated versus not vaccinated, it won't matter. If I get tore into by a dog I have bigger problems on my hands. If I get bit I'm screwed, but if I go into a fight unprepared I deserve what's coming to me. I would be the one to blame for not being prepared for going into a rabid dog infested yard. I think if you're in a situation where there's a storm of zombies like in the intro to TLOU2, a bite is the least of your concerns. But again, this is all to go back to JOEL and the plotline of TLOU2.

Yes a vaccine MIGHt have saved two irrelevant characters. YES a vaccine MIGHT have been made. YES a vaccine MIGHT have even been made between the two games. But the events of TLOU2 transpire so long as Joel shoots that doctor, so saying Joel is bad because vaccine carries less weight to me and others, because it was not a sure thing and it doesn't even change TLOU2's events.

You are focusing too much on the vacine. Joel wasnt a bad person. But he and Tommy did some messed up things. Kill8ng the doctor was one of the many things he did. The first game brings that a lot. And the first game isnt shy about it either. Remember when he and ellie got ambushed? He did that as well to other people

 

[Jon Neu]

You mean like the beautiful epiphany of Joel realizing that he has a heart and shoving a guys head into the counter to take a girl who was the only hope humanity had just so he can feel good about himself after he spent 20 something years destroying everyone’s lives around him? Damn so deep.

You mean Joel acted like a father and prefered to save his daughter than the rest of the putrid world?

I would have done the same.

 

[SLB1904]

Still, she learned she killed a baby and still went inmediately on the hunt for Abby anyways.

Can you just stop. You just embarrassing yourself. That never happened. Ellie agrees to let abby go after that. But unfortunately was too late because abby came for her.

 

[SLB1904]

Jon Neu dude everything you know about this game is 100% wrong dont you get it? Like wtf

 

[Jon Neu]

Ellie agrees to let abby go after that.

You're the one embarassing yourself. Ellie wanted to give up because of Dina and her pregnant state, which is a recurring theme through the game; Ellie trying to decide if she goes on the revenge quest or if she stays with Dina and tries to live her life.

 

[Ulysses 31]

No mate, you are the one making assumptions. The first game is very clear. At that point the majority of the world population has been infected. The best hope to find a vaccine is Ellie. Joel stopped that. There is no ambiguity in that , there are not what ifs, thats what the first game is about. You can simpatize and understand why joel did what he did, that's fine, that doesn't change the fact that Ellie was the best hope of finding a cure and joel prevented that from happening.

And you saying that the main cause of death is conflict between humans, unless the game says that and I don't remember, there is absolutely no reason to believe that. A local conflict is.not indication of that at all. Again, the vast majority of the world is unpopulated, were there where millions of people now there are just small gated settlements. Humanity is not only struggling to survive the infected, it has already failed, the vast majority of the human population is already dead.

There is no need to change the game just to fit certain narrative and justify certain actions. The game is what it is, and what it is is a post apocalyptic world where humanity is on the brink of extinction and there is no cure on sight to end what put them in that position on the first place.

Even if it's 100% sure a vaccine can created, it's not been made clear that the Fireflies can produce enough and have a stable distribution network for delivery.

Why is there not a bad word about how the Fireflies handled the situation? Was is really unreasonable to let Joel see Ellie after all they'd been through? Wouldn't Ellie want to say good bye to him and tie any other loose ends she can first IF she decided to die? Planning to kill someone without informed consent is no invitation for retribution? The Fireflies were way too unreasonable for the emotionally charged situation they were in.

The game doesn't say that humans cause more death but that's the impression you get from all the battles in the game, the infected took a backseat to the human threat.

 

[SLB1904]

You're the one embarassing yourself. Ellie wanted to give up because of Dina and her pregnant state, which is a recurring theme through the game; Ellie trying to decide if she goes on the revenge quest or if she stays with Dina and tries to live her life.

Lmfao. Keeps digging.

You really should play the game. Just put whatever youtube. Twitter reddit opinions aside. Just do it for scientific reasons. Than judge for yourself.

 

[Maxwell Jacob Friedman]

Still, she learned she killed a baby and still went inmediately on the hunt for Abby anyways.

A super convenient flashback of Joel just before she kills Abby so she suddenly realizes revenge was actually the friends we make along the way it's just plain bad writing.



Yet she infiltrates the WLF and tortures Nora while the WLF can do nothing to stop her.



She had to overpower a malnourished and on the verge of death Abby to realize that revenge bad?

2Deep4you.



So the same person that doesn't give a fuck that she killed the unborn baby of Abby's friend and still goes inmediately after Abby to kill her, suddenly has her heart softened because Abby has another friend (not pregnant this time).

Impressively logical.



Nothing will resucitate Joel, but you know what actually could bring the most sense of closure? Killing the person who tortured Joel to death in front of your eyes, the person you have been on the hunt and for which you have killed, tortured and brought so many people to die for. The person that also killed that asian dude friend of yours that literally saved your life and was killed trying to protect you.

That asian dude they cuckolded so they could have a baby was killed because of Ellie's revenge quest, the fact that it was all literally for nothing because Ellie suddenly goes from psycho mass murderer to Mahatma Ghandi in seconds, is just Ellie and Dina spitting in the grave of that poor guy and not giving a single fuck about it.



In this thread alone there's already some of the usual suspects.

Did you even play the game....that is the most untrue thnig to begin with. Ellie killed Mel and then went back to the threat with Tommy and Jessie. Some time passed and Abby tracked them down, Tommy got shot, Ellie and Abby had their scuffle and Ellie had her arm broken, her face caved in and Dina got an arrow to the back as well as her face caved in. Abby was about to kill Dina and Abby stopped. Then MONTHS after that pass, because it is after that fact when the baby is born and the baby is actually a few months to begin with. We dont know how far along Dina was in her pregnancy however we can estimate atleast 9 months passed between Ellie killing Mel and Ellie deciding to go find Abby once Tommy scolded her and her PTSD kicked in again.

You can thin its bad writing however whats even worse writing is taking a girl half way across the country who is immune for a cure, to then drop her off and last second feel "well she is kind of like a daughter to me" and kill everyone and damn humanity for the rest of time because now the chances for a vaccine are all gone. Great writing.....

She doesnt torture Nora she beats her to death and thats because Nora has nothing to lose, she is infected with spores in the basement of the hospital. Nothing maters to her now. When she tries to interrogate two NORMAL people not succumbing to an infection she cant bring herself to do it. And think back after she did beat Nora to death with that moment with her and Dina, it damn near broke Ellie inside which is why she caved to properly interrogate Owen and Mel.

yes the process was she beat Abby and realized that shits not going to change no matter what, much like how it didnt for Abby. So Joel can change his mind and murder a shit ton of people long the way but then when its time for a cure he decides fuck it and kills even MORE people than before.....but thats proper story telling......

I honestly don't even think you played the game. Your points are all over the place and you cant even remember the story at all. Lots of people die in the last of us thats the point of these games, however every death has a weight. Hell even Dina said she tries to carry on from jessie and move on just to hold herself together to somewhat live a normal life.

Also again is killing your rival will help you feel better than why didnt it help Abby feel better? In teh end it actually did more damage to her and her friends, they said they couldnt sleep, they could hear his screams etc. Also Joels death did not bring any closure to Abby thats why she decided to protect Lev. Lev and Yara was the one new thing she had going for her, because his death provided nothing or feeling of joy or resolve. She was left empty until she found those two which is why she even states to Lev "you're my people"

 

[DForce]

So as she gets closer she does need to get more stealthy because she's at a big disadvantage with only her knife. You seem to forget that Tommy isn't deaf and is cunning with how he took out Manny.

Tommy can't hear footsteps when he's shooting someone very 3 seconds. Tommy went from the Bridge, to inside of the building and then to the first floor of the building. So answer these questions. Can Tommy see anyone running towards the building and then entering the second floor from the stairs while he was on the first floor? If so, how can he see outside of the building through windows that were covered and barricaded?

 

[lyan]

If you set a story based on the modern world you must expect the readers(/players) to inject their common sense into the plot. Relying on "it's fiction" as the answer to essential plot elements significantly undermines the experience. Similarly when a fantasy element is introduced in your setting the reader will raise an eyebrow if at any point you need them to forget such concept exist for a moment to let the story to continue.