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Tom's Hardware: Far Cry 6 Proves Consoles Aren't Powerful Enough for Ray Tracing

SlimySnake

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Watch Dogs uses on consoles only "short range" RT. Everything in the distance is more or less a mix of SSR & cubemaps. Only reflections near you are RT based.
And those RT reflections are also really low-res.

But yes, still looks good.
Spiderman on PS5 (as good as it looks) is also just low-res & lower-lod, short-distance RT with checkerboard-upscaling. Stills looks great, but don't expect much more of it.
I was driving around in the rain last night and there were reflections everywhere. This is real life. Not a video game. The traffic lights, street lights, car headlights. None of it looked 1:1. They were blurry, kind of vaseline covered looking instead of simple mirror like reflections.

The point is as long as it looks good, we dont need to go all Alex Battlestar Gallactica on them with 5000% zoom looking for sharp knees.
 
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RoadHazard

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Watch Dogs uses on consoles only "short range" RT. Everything in the distance is more or less a mix of SSR & cubemaps. Only reflections near you are RT based.
And those RT reflections are also really low-res.

But yes, still looks good.
Spiderman on PS5 (as good as it looks) is also just low-res & lower-lod, short-distance RT with checkerboard-upscaling. Stills looks great, but don't expect much more of it.

Lower res and LOD is true, but SM traces to the horizon. Not every single object, but buildings etc. There's no "edge" where they disappear like in WD.
 
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Allandor

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I was driving around in the rain last night and there were reflections everywhere. This is real life. Not a video game. The traffic lights, street lights, car headlights. None of it looked 1:1. They were blurry, kind of vaseline covered looking instead of simple mirror like reflections.

The point is as long as it looks good, we dont need to go all Alex Battlestar Gallactica on them with 5000% zoom looking for sharp knees.
Yes, that is a big problem. Comparing screenshots is always something where you will see this, but while in action you won't notice.
E.g. that's why I'm not impressed e.g. with the reflections in Doom with RT. When I play the game, the reflections are just a minor improvement because I don't really realize them in a quick game like this. Only if I stand still and try to spot them I really see the difference.
My Focus is just always on the enemy ;)
 

ultrazilla

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Knew it.



All this "Ray tracing in Far Cry 6 is for PC only" is in other words: "We don't have time to implement it right now due to crunch/covid and then working on optimization before the game's release in a couple weeks."

I suspect once sales start "falling off" after the honeymoon session with the game is over, we'll see the game patched with RT... let's say it being included around the first DLC they have for example.


Oh and I'm not much for "super collector's editions" as I simply have no room for them but the Far Cry 6 one is :messenger_fire::messenger_fire::messenger_fire:

Far Cry 6: Fangs for Hire Collector's Edition :messenger_tears_of_joy::messenger_sunglasses:

UPDATE: THIS EDITION DOES NOT INCLUDE THE GAME!!


 
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assurdum

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RE8 is open world like far cry 6 is? nope.

The reason why ubisoft even goes for hybrid RT with mix of settings is because even top RDNA2 cards on PC which are a metric ton faster then fastest console can't run RT for shit and the game is most likely sponsored by AMD which means they will have to cut it in pieces.
Lol all this celebration for the pc brute force in raytracing just for reflections hybrid with SSR in Far Cry 6. Nothing to say about the pc to be more capable of the console hardware but use Ubisoft as gauge of raytraycing capability it's laughable. It's also a double edged sword argument, so it means pc is not capable to offer more raytracing in a game like FaR Cry 6 than what Ubi will offer? It's not exactly exalting.
RE8 areas are quite opened and it's the first implementation on console, what it show it's far from shit. Go back to look how raytracing worked on launch on pc. What a stupid hardware war argument.
 
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3liteDragon

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Avatar is using RT everywhere. Even for foliage. It's just a matter of effort. Some devs just dont have the time or resources to add RT to every game.
Are they using the RT hardware on the consoles for that or is it software-based RT?
 

SlimySnake

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Are they using the RT hardware on the consoles for that or is it software-based RT?
Must be hardware because they are using it for both lighting (GI) and shadows. If it was regular Global Illumination, they wouldnt call their lighting system based on ray tracing.
Stefanov gives some examples of what that can mean to the game: "In terms of a new generation of consoles, the improved [hardware] just gives us so much opportunity to make sure that the game's as immersive as possible. So a couple of examples, we have a completely new lighting system that is based on ray tracing, and I think it is a dramatic step up in quality that makes you feel like it's a real place. One tiny example is that it can actually handle the translucency of the leaves [...] so it can figure out how much of the light is reflected through the leaves, how tinted it is with the colors and everything else. You get lovely reflections and sights for the water, even down to the volumetric clouds up in the sky – they actually receive the correct lighting as well."
"[New consoles allowed] us to have much better object detail up close to you," explains Stefanove, "but also when you're flying high up in the air – to have a lovely vista and far-distance rendering, where we can even use the ray tracing to do shadows super far away, you know, three or four kilometers away from you."
 

Alebrije

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All this "Ray tracing in Far Cry 6 is for PC only" is in other words: "We don't have time to implement it right now due to crunch/covid and then working on optimization before the game's release in a couple weeks."

I suspect once sales start "falling off" after the honeymoon session with the game is over, we'll see the game patched with RT... let's say it being included around the first DLC they have for example.


Oh and I'm not much for "super collector's editions" as I simply have no room for them but the Far Cry 6 one is :messenger_fire::messenger_fire::messenger_fire:

Far Cry 6: Fangs for Hire Collector's Edition :messenger_tears_of_joy::messenger_sunglasses:

Is that real? The CE.
 

3liteDragon

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Must be hardware because they are using it for both lighting (GI) and shadows. If it was regular Global Illumination, they wouldnt call their lighting system based on ray tracing.


The thing is, software-based RT would also massively benefit from the improved console hardware as well with async compute. You can still have a software-based solution and call it ray-tracing like Epic does with UE5's Lumen system, it's tracing rays, but it's not as accurate as triangle-based RT and it's using boxy representations of the scene's geometry (voxels).

But if they're using the hardware for GI & shadows, I would love to see how they pull that off with good IQ. And btw, I think RT will mature over this gen with the new consoles as devs have low-level access to the hardware for more potential optimizations to be made.
 
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Klik

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Well they are still better than 90% gaming PC's out there. See how many people actuall have gpu's faster than RTX 2070super? About 7-8%.


Not to mention if you can build pc with ryzen 8c/16t,gpu similiar to rtx 2070super,16gb for 399$
 
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Wildstar75

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Is there any reason to believe that a DLSS clone isn't technically possible on PS5 and Series X? I think there has been evidence to the contrary. If it is possible, Im sure we'll see it before the end of this generation. That will help a lot. It certainly does on PC's with new Nvidia cards. That said, Im already impressed with the Console RT capabilities so early on such as Ratchet and Clank, Spiderman, COD, etc...
 
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3liteDragon

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Is there any reason to believe that a DLSS clone isn't possible on Next Gen Consoles? If it is possible, Im sure we'll see it before the end of this generation. That will help a lot. It certainly does on PC's with new Nvidia cards. That said, Im already impressed with the Console RT capabilities so early on such as Ratchet and Clank, Spiderman, COD, etc...
The console GPUs don't have dedicated Tensor cores for AI resolution upsampling like the NVIDIA cards do, the consoles have techniques like checkerboarding & TAA upsampling, as long as we get good IQ with these techniques this gen, I'm okay with it.
 

Wildstar75

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The console GPUs don't have dedicated Tensor cores for AI resolution upsampling like the NVIDIA cards do, the consoles have techniques like checkerboarding & TAA upsampling, as long as we get good IQ with these techniques this gen, I'm okay with it.
Microsoft claimed they have ML acceleration onboard for things like Resolution Scaling awhile back. Link
 
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3liteDragon

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Microsoft claimed they have ML acceleration onboard for things like Resolution Scaling awhile back. Link
Yes, those instructions have to run on the CUs since they don’t have dedicated upscaling hardware on both consoles. But the CUs support rapid-packed math for FP16, INT8 & INT4 instructions for lower-precision calculations (ML) which run on the CUs themselves.
 
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Wildstar75

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Yes, those instructions have to run on the CUs since they don’t have dedicated upscaling hardware on both consoles. But the CUs support rapid-packed math for FP16, INT8 & INT4 instructions for lower-precision calculations (ML) which run on the CUs themselves.
Right, so not dedicated, but if MSFT provides a DLSS equivalent in their API, maybe even one that takes advantage of quantization as you suggest, a development studio can opt-in. When doing so they will be giving up some small bit of their overall graphics compute budget, but they will most certainly gain that back because the render target is lower. Right?
 

3liteDragon

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Right, so not dedicated, but if MSFT provides a DLSS equivalent in their API, maybe even one that takes advantage of quantization as you suggest, a development studio can opt-in. When doing so they will be giving up some small bit of their overall graphics compute budget, but they will most certainly gain that back because the render target is lower. Right?
Yes but the image quality has to be clean after the upsampling.
 
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Dream-Knife

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I was playing horizon 4 last night and noticed the reflections of the hood of my car. If that can be done without rt, I really wonder why we need rt to begin with.
 
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Wildstar75

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I was playing horizon 4 last night and noticed the reflections of the hood of my car. If that can be done without rt, I really wonder why we need rt to begin with.
You are right. Horizon 4 is a beaut! 5 looks out of this world without RT. (during gameplay) But over time, a technology progresses. Becomes more mainstream. And teams start to innovate and raise the bar. And before you know it, something that didn't feel like a big deal...is. It will take quite awhile before in-game ray-tracing hits it stride. But when it does, you have hit the graphics holy grail. Just my opinion of course :)
 

Kenpachii

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Lol all this celebration for the pc brute force in raytracing just for reflections hybrid with SSR in Far Cry 6. Nothing to say about the pc to be more capable of the console hardware but use Ubisoft as gauge of raytraycing capability it's laughable. It's also a double edged sword argument, so it means pc is not capable to offer more raytracing in a game like FaR Cry 6 than what Ubi will offer? It's not exactly exalting.
RE8 areas are quite opened and it's the first implementation on console, what it show it's far from shit. Go back to look how raytracing worked on launch on pc. What a stupid hardware war argument.

People compare RDNA2 on PC versus consoles and come to conclusions that RDNA 2 in consoles for RT is dog shit. Farcry and ubisoft have nothing to do with it. They just reconfirm what everybody knows.

PC can offer whatever u want, they are not fixed towards anything. so your conclusion makes no sense here.

Like i said RE8 is limited in what it does, its not running a car through the village at 200 miles a hour, shooting and explosions everywhere with a whole world that has to be rendered wherever u look that nukes cpu performance, u know what also nukes cpu performance? RT. Complete different game and taxation. Not every game is the same.

For example cyberpunk at 3440x1440 with a 3080, i get ~25 fps at native with everything on RT wise, While in RE8 i get about 100 fps native while standing in a village overlooking it. The hardest to render spot i found.

Raytracing worked on launch on PC has no relevance towards anything. RT is well known how it works by now SDK"s from nvidia and amd are widely available to the point even a single indie dev can implement both of them in a single day without effort.
When RT launched on PC 3 years ago there was nothing, everything still had to be made. That's no longer the case. As consoles use pretty much PC hardware there is no learning curve really specially not for big devs. There are only sacrifices to be made.
 
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Black_Stride

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Right, so not dedicated, but if MSFT provides a DLSS equivalent in their API, maybe even one that takes advantage of quantization as you suggest, a development studio can opt-in. When doing so they will be giving up some small bit of their overall graphics compute budget, but they will most certainly gain that back because the render target is lower. Right?

Then theres also Intels XeSS.
It should be able to work on consoles and from what we have seen it does a better job than FSR and while not DLSS 2 levels it will certainly help depending what resolution developers are trying to aim for.

 

rnlval

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Yes, those instructions have to run on the CUs since they don’t have dedicated upscaling hardware on both consoles. But the CUs support rapid-packed math for FP16, INT8 & INT4 instructions for lower-precision calculations (ML) which run on the CUs themselves.
Some RDNA 2 SKU's Machine Learning (dot math) instructions have FP16, INT8 & INT4 inputs with 32-bit output results. The baseline RPM feature is different from the optional dot math features.

MS has confirmed Machine Learning (dot math) instructions for XSX.
AMD has confirmed Machine Learning (dot math) instructions for NAVI 21.
 
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hlm666

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Then theres also Intels XeSS.
It should be able to work on consoles and from what we have seen it does a better job than FSR and while not DLSS 2 levels it will certainly help depending what resolution developers are trying to aim for.
If intel release the api for consoles, this doesn't sound no where as open source as people are making out. "Internal engines that plugin under the api" is very much how dlss works. He doesn't answer source code questions for obvious reason (because it was no)

 

assurdum

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People compare RDNA2 on PC versus consoles and come to conclusions that RDNA 2 in consoles for RT is dog shit. Farcry and ubisoft have nothing to do with it. They just reconfirm what everybody knows.

PC can offer whatever u want, they are not fixed towards anything. so your conclusion makes no sense here.

Like i said RE8 is limited in what it does, its not running a car through the village at 200 miles a hour, shooting and explosions everywhere with a whole world that has to be rendered wherever u look that nukes cpu performance, u know what also nukes cpu performance? RT. Complete different game and taxation. Not every game is the same.

For example cyberpunk at 3440x1440 with a 3080, i get ~25 fps at native with everything on RT wise, While in RE8 i get about 100 fps native while standing in a village overlooking it. The hardest to render spot i found.

Raytracing worked on launch on PC has no relevance towards anything. RT is well known how it works by now SDK"s from nvidia and amd are widely available to the point even a single indie dev can implement both of them in a single day without effort.
When RT launched on PC 3 years ago there was nothing, everything still had to be made. That's no longer the case. As consoles use pretty much PC hardware there is no learning curve really specially not for big devs. There are only sacrifices to be made.
AMD raytracing it's just at the beginning and the developers have just scratched the surface. It's not me but Metro developers who claimed that. No one will touch your precious Nvidia supremacy but say AMD raytracing will never improve is blatantly ignorant.
Also, raytracing on ps5 can be coded with low level access API something it's not available (for now) even on your precious pc. It's not a minor thing.
 
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Black_Stride

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If intel release the api for consoles, this doesn't sound no where as open source as people are making out. "Internal engines that plugin under the api" is very much how dlss works. He doesn't answer source code questions for obvious reason (because it was no)

It doesnt have to be open source to be used by devs.
Propriety closed source software is used all the time in development.
 

YeulEmeralda

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You are right. Horizon 4 is a beaut! 5 looks out of this world without RT. (during gameplay) But over time, a technology progresses. Becomes more mainstream. And teams start to innovate and raise the bar. And before you know it, something that didn't feel like a big deal...is. It will take quite awhile before in-game ray-tracing hits it stride. But when it does, you have hit the graphics holy grail. Just my opinion of course :)
Oh I absolutely agree ray tracing will no doubt be standard some day. But it won't be this gen if even a 3090 struggles to keep at 30fps.
 

hlm666

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It doesnt have to be open source to be used by devs.
Propriety closed source software is used all the time in development.
No but the way intel has described it in that interview they are going to have to release the sdk and dlls for whatever platforms they want to support and I don't think intel are going to release for platforms containing no hardware of their own or in the ps5's case not even an api they will use anywhere else. Even on pc it's going to be a case of amd and nvidia not being able to modify XeSS to use their hardware in the best possible way. Hope i'm wrong but it stinks of typical intel promises.
 

Black_Stride

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No but the way intel has described it in that interview they are going to have to release the sdk and dlls for whatever platforms they want to support and I don't think intel are going to release for platforms containing no hardware of their own or in the ps5's case not even an api they will use anywhere else. Even on pc it's going to be a case of amd and nvidia not being able to modify XeSS to use their hardware in the best possible way. Hope i'm wrong but it stinks of typical intel promises.

Itll run on DP4a so its up to devs to implement.
If a dev as big as say Epic say they want to have an XeSS build or plugin for Unreal Engine Intel will surely jump at the opportunity.
Letting console devs get the chance to use it and have their logo on the Splashscreen totally plausible.
Only time will tell.

Heck devs might have a better upscaling solution for console and not even want to use XeSS but it being an option to explore is a good thing regardless of how shaddy people think Intel will be with the project.