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Some perspective on the Next-Gen: this is how a first year ng exclusive looked like last gen

ripeavocado

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Lol Returnal and Deathloop are both gorgeous games and significantly better anything on last gen.

I'll let others defend Demon's Souls because I was never that taken with the graphics, but I seem to be in a very small minority. I'll just note that running at 4k30 is basically equivalent to 1440p60 so your rebuttal, such as it was, is irrelevant.

If you don't think Ratchet is a big leap then that's your opinion but I'm not gonna start posting screens and begging you to change your mind. Suffice to say that to me it looks staggeringly beautiful in basically every context I've seen it, and almost everyone else seems to agree, so...

Absolutely not, both look worse than Infamous Second Son.

You must have very low standards this gen, I wonder if you were among those complaining about a weak PS4 last gen.

1440p60 is not acceptable and we are talking about a game designed for an hardware from 2006.

Post screens if you want, don't care, it's not true that everybody is agreeing, the will of people to fool themselves is starting to crack, I see plenty of people complanining about God of War now...
 
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Hunnybun

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Absolutely not, both look worse than Infamous Second Son.

You must have very low standards this gen, I wonder if you were among those complaining about a weak PS4 last gen.

1440p60 is not acceptable and we are talking about a game designed for an hardware from 2006.

Post screens if you want, don't care, it's not true that everybody is agreeing, the will of people to fool themselves is starting to crack, I see plenty of people complanining about God of War now...

Hahahaha, worse than Second Son, fucking hell that's mental.

1440p60 not acceptable? Er, excuse me, but what the fuck? We're you actually expecting a next gen leap in visuals AND 4k60?!?

I'm not sure that's even possible on a 3090. Well, maybe just.

Absolutely delusional.
 

ZehDon

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Jun 13, 2013
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I feel the marketing coming out in your post.

The Flight Simulator series has had the full planet and satellite imagery as early as the 90s

FS2020 just downloads Bing Maps data made of satellite and actual pictures on demand, it has nothing to do with the console hardware. If you play without a broadband connection you will see drastically inferior cities because there will be no data downloaded (and they haven't improved the autogen that much since FSX in 2006 because their goal was to use bing maps anyway)

This is the first AAA Flight Simulator in 14 years so yeah, it was several generational leaps in its niche.
Easily the dumbest post I've read all day, and I've spent time in the thread discussing Thor's design from GOWR.

You expect anyone to believe an Xbox 360 with an internet connection can render Microsoft Flight Simulator 2020? Of course not, because you post is asinine - the Xbox Series console hardware is self-evidently "doing" something so it has a lot to do with the console hardware. And if you think I could fly over my rural home town in FSX and see an accurate depiction of it, you clearly never played it, which lends your post the contrarian scent of a Google search copy/paste. So, I have to ask: why post this garbage response? Why reply at all?

Your thread is backfiring because your OP is dramatically flawed, your premise is clearly not sound, your posts are seemingly disconnected from reality, and you're justifications are borderline laughable. My suggestion: if the best thinking you have is the above post, don't post it.
 
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Hoddi

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Nov 3, 2020
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The Pro consoles changed a lot. If everyone was upgrading from the base systems then the differences would be more visible.

It's been an underwhelming start to the generation though. People are still guessing whether some games will be cross-gen or not which pretty much says it all.
 

slade

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Why would a better hardware bankrupt the industry?

Why are you defending price increases when the big AAA publishers have never been so profitable?

Oh, I'm sorry. You just wanted a premium graphics card without any games? Continue on then.
 

Fbh

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All graphically impressive games of last gen are 30fps so what?

Do you think Spiderman 2 is going to be 60fps only and have amazing graphics?

if the expectation is running PS4 at 4K 60fps then it proves my point.

So what?
Going from 30 to 60fps is a big jump in how the game feels and looks in motion. If you'd rather want games to be locked at 30fps and push for the best possible graphics than you'll just have to wait a bit, I'm sure games like that will come along eventually. And yes, I think Spiderman 2 will have a notorious but not mindblowing upgrade compared to the original on ps4 while offering a 60fps mode. And again, I'd rather have Insomniac focusing on making the gameplay as good as possible instead of the visuals.

What is your point exactly? That consoles are underpowered? In what context and compared to what?
What is your proposal? $1000 consoles? Sony/MS selling consoles with a 100% loss? Sony/MS stretching the Ps4/Xb1 gen for another 3 years and wait for stronger hardware to get cheaper?

Consoles are meant to be affordable, I might not like some of the decisions Sony has taken in regards to game pricing and cross gen, but I think the hardware you get for $400 is pretty great. I can't really think of any other gaming device on the market right now which gives you more of a bang for your buck. If you want to spend more for top of the line hardware build a PC, or wait a couple of years to see if we get pro models. Since the upgrade is miniscule to you I'm sure you won't mind sticking with a Ps4/Xb1 for another 2 years.
 

BPX

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ripeavocado

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Hahahaha, worse than Second Son, fucking hell that's mental.

1440p60 not acceptable? Er, excuse me, but what the fuck? We're you actually expecting a next gen leap in visuals AND 4k60?!?

I'm not sure that's even possible on a 3090. Well, maybe just.

Absolutely delusional.

That's the problem, did you skip the OP?

The target for games, like demon souls is 4K 30fps, then it can run at 60fps at lower resolution.

Despite this, it doesn't has the wow effect like many first year PS4 titles had.

And if the resolution is the problem, then the console are weak for 4K (the now standard resolution)

Easily the dumbest post I've read all day, and I've spent time in the thread discussing Thor's design from GOWR.

You expect anyone to believe an Xbox 360 with an internet connection can render Microsoft Flight Simulator 2020? Of course not, because you post is asinine - the Xbox Series console hardware is self-evidently "doing" something so it has a lot to do with the console hardware. And if you think I could fly over my rural home town in FSX and see an accurate depiction of it, you clearly never played it, which lends your post the contrarian scent of a Google search copy/paste. So, I have to ask: why post this garbage response? Why reply at all?

Your thread is backfiring because your OP is dramatically flawed, your premise is clearly not sound, your posts are seemingly disconnected from reality, and you're justifications are borderline laughable. My suggestion: if the best thinking you have is the above post, don't post it.

Xbox 360? wtf are you talkingh about?

Stop insulting and learn to read.

The quality of the real life reconstruction in FS2020 has not much to do with Series X, it comes from streaming bing maps data, play it without internet connections and will look much worse, you will not see your rural hometown look the same.
Having the wole world in the game is something that has been feasible for decades, it's not a new thing.

You are projecting a lot and the fact that you post is made of insults, falsehoods and features no sound arguments proves it.

Enjoy your denial, then go play FS2020 without a broadband connection.
 

ripeavocado

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So what?
Going from 30 to 60fps is a big jump in how the game feels and looks in motion. If you'd rather want games to be locked at 30fps and push for the best possible graphics than you'll just have to wait a bit, I'm sure games like that will come along eventually. And yes, I think Spiderman 2 will have a notorious but not mindblowing upgrade compared to the original on ps4 while offering a 60fps mode. And again, I'd rather have Insomniac focusing on making the gameplay as good as possible instead of the visuals.

What is your point exactly? That consoles are underpowered? In what context and compared to what?
What is your proposal? $1000 consoles? Sony/MS selling consoles with a 100% loss? Sony/MS stretching the Ps4/Xb1 gen for another 3 years and wait for stronger hardware to get cheaper?

Consoles are meant to be affordable, I might not like some of the decisions Sony has taken in regards to game pricing and cross gen, but I think the hardware you get for $400 is pretty great. I can't really think of any other gaming device on the market right now which gives you more of a bang for your buck. If you want to spend more for top of the line hardware build a PC, or wait a couple of years to see if we get pro models. Since the upgrade is miniscule to you I'm sure you won't mind sticking with a Ps4/Xb1 for another 2 years.

They are underpowered to provide a sensible generational leap for the standards promised in this generation.

My proposal was to not start an half assed next gen if the hardware is not ready yet.
 

Hunnybun

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That's the problem, did you skip the OP?

The target for games, like demon souls is 4K 30fps, then it can run at 60fps at lower resolution.

Despite this, it doesn't has the wow effect like many first year PS4 titles had.

And if the resolution is the problem, then the console are weak for 4K (the now standard resolution)

So what you're basically saying is that the consoles can't run games at 4k60 with a big leap in fidelity on top?

No shit. How is that news, exactly? Precisely no reasonable person ever thought that's what we were going to get.

Personally, the fact that we got a game that looked like Ratchet, at 4k, and with fairly substantial RT sucking up a lot of performance, is ALREADY beyond what I was hoping for. And the only real counter to that is to just try to deny that Ratchet looks great in the first place, when it very obviously does.

So I'm not sure there's any point continuing the conversation.
 

REDRZA MWS

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Jan 7, 2018
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netbook cpu lmao...

Man you clearly don't know how things work on the technical side but you say you are happier without a true generational leap just because the OS is faster, you can play old gen games at 60fps and have shorter loading times?

$500 well spent for what could have been a PS4 Pro 2, what can I say :messenger_tears_of_joy:
Were those ancient ass Jaguar cores not netbook cores?

How a zen2/rdna2/ssd console isn’t a generational leap over last gen is beyond me.

The gen hasn’t truely started yet and just like every single generation before it, the games WILL get better and better over time. Sony just showed us what’s coming and really impressive games I’m GoW:R, Spider-Man 2, and GT7, and MS side we are a few months from Halo Infinite, a photo realistic looking FH5, and as another person posted, Flight simulator is simply ridiculous. Plus a ton of 3rd party devs with shot not even shown yet. Also, don’t forget we are in a global pandemic where things have slowed down a bit. Relax.
 
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TGO

Hype Train conductor. Works harder than it steams.
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I blame the mid gen refresh for games not looking that much better.
A lot of early games tend to look like sharper more detailed versions of last gen games at the beginning until we get a game that just not possible on last gen.
We kinda met Next Gen halfway with higher resolution and then demanded games to be 60/120fps.
And you wonder why things don't look like a big leap.
It will happen, it's just gonna take time.
 
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ripeavocado

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Were those ancient ass Jaguar cores not netbook cores?

How a zen2/rdna2/ssd console isn’t a generational leap over last gen is beyond me.

The gen hasn’t truely started yet and just like every single generation before it, the games WILL get better and better over time. Sony just showed us what’s coming and really impressive games I’m GoW:R, Spider-Man 2, and GT7, and MS side we are a few months from
Halo Infinite, a photo realistic looking FH5, and as another person posted, Flight simulator is simply ridiculous. Plus a ton of 3rd party devs with shot not even shown yet. Also, don’t forget we are in a global pandemic where things have slowed down a bit. Relax.

The generational leap is measured through what they produce.

CPU performance gains yoy have been decreasing a lot in the last 20 years, a generational leap is not what it used to be, and it shouldn't matter if it's Zen2 or 3 as long as you get the generational leap in games.

The gen has been around for almost a year and we have yet to see something jaw dropping.

In 2013-14 you were already playing several jaw dropping titles.

The pandemic is not stopping titles to be reveled, we don't even had this, back in 2012-2013 we had so many announcements...

So what you're basically saying is that the consoles can't run games at 4k60 with a big leap in fidelity on top?

No shit. How is that news, exactly? Precisely no reasonable person ever thought that's what we were going to get.

Personally, the fact that we got a game that looked like Ratchet, at 4k, and with fairly substantial RT sucking up a lot of performance, is ALREADY beyond what I was hoping for. And the only real counter to that is to just try to deny that Ratchet looks great in the first place, when it very obviously does.

So I'm not sure there's any point continuing the conversation.

4k30 with big leap in fidelity.

It's literally written in the OP stop wasting each other time please..

So maybe you have low standards regarding what you want from a next gen and by the way RT doesn't suck up performance, they exist to save it and you should know that.
 

ripeavocado

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I blame the mid gen refresh for games not looking that much better.
A lot of early games tend to look like sharper more detailed versions of last gen games at the beginning until we get a game that just not possible on last gen.
We kinda met Next Gen halfway with higher resolution and then demanded games to be 60/120fps.
And you wonder why things don't look like a big leap.
It will happen, it's just gonna take time.

Most games on Ps4Pro and X1X only featured higher resolution and not much else it does matter because it limits the 4K effect (also with this resolution we are really hitting diminishing returns) but in 2013-2014 we already had those games not possible on last gen.

Look at infamous, it was released only 3 years after Infamous 2 around 5 months after the launch of PS4 and it looks so much better, day and night!
 
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Unknown?

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Infamous Second Son was release just an handful of months after the launch of Playstation 4 and it looked insane at the time.

It's still one of the best looking games of the generation and it doesn't look sensibly worse than a similar late gen game: Spider-Man by Insomniac (I think it looks better than GoT)







This is how the series looked like on the previous generation, 3 years before:




Where are the Next-Gen games that wow all of us?

The best concrete thing we have seen is a short teaser of a game coming out in 2023 that looks better but not this much better.


Let's face it: this next-gen is half assed, the hardware is not powerful enough, especially on the ray tracing side.
You took carefully crafted PR screens and compared it to an in game shot.
 
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ripeavocado

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You took carefully crafted PR screens and compared it to an in game shot.

Lie.

They are all in game screenshots I have found randomly on the internet.

The game did look THAT GOOD.

Some people have a very short term memory :messenger_tears_of_joy:
 

Naked Lunch

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Eye candy is ultimately pointless in my eyes.
Its time for devs to stop focusing on graphics and start creating some new fresh gameplay ideas and new types of never seen before games - the tech is there.
DokeV is the only new game ive seen recently pushing some boundaries.
Perhaps this new generation of game developers are simply not capable.
 

RoboFu

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Well if we kept to 1080p and didn’t have the pro consoles then maybe you would have got your jump.
 

NahaNago

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All graphically impressive games of last gen are 30fps so what?

Do you think Spiderman 2 is going to be 60fps only and have amazing graphics?

if the expectation is running PS4 at 4K 60fps then it proves my point.
I'm kinda lost on what the argument is?

I think spiderman 2 is going to look like a ps4 game at 4k with 60 fps.

You can't have all of the massive upgrades in resolution and fps and expect the game to also be even more of a powerhouse visually.

I don't think games will be ugly I just don't think they are going to blow me away like the start of the ps4 did especially with this cross gen nonsense, graphcis mode, and fps modes now being pushed in games.
 
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Hunnybun

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The generational leap is measured through what they produce.

CPU performance gains yoy have been decreasing a lot in the last 20 years, a generational leap is not what it used to be, and it shouldn't matter if it's Zen2 or 3 as long as you get the generational leap in games.

The gen has been around for almost a year and we have yet to see something jaw dropping.

In 2013-14 you were already playing several jaw dropping titles.

The pandemic is not stopping titles to be reveled, we don't even had this, back in 2012-2013 we had so many announcements...



4k30 with big leap in fidelity.

It's literally written in the OP stop wasting each other time please..

So maybe you have low standards regarding what you want from a next gen and by the way RT doesn't suck up performance, they exist to save it and you should know that.

You clearly haven't got the first clue what you're talking about dude.

RT in Ratchet is the difference between 1440p and 1800p. That's nearly 40% of the total performance just on RT, even before the acceleration.
 

REDRZA MWS

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oh and by the way, they were NEVER netbook cores.


That's what I am referring to when I talk about bad marketing back then.

It's a LIE that people wanted to believe.

Now the opposite it's happening, thanks to carefully crafted marketing, very disheartening
At the core-level, Jaguar still looks a lot like Bobcat.The same dual-issue, out-of-order architecture that AMD introduced in 2010 remains intact with Jaguar. The same L1 cache, front end and execution blocks are all still here. Given the ARM transition from a dual-issue, out-of-order core with Cortex A9 to a three-issue, OoO design with the Cortex A15, I expected something similar from AMD. Despite moving to a smaller manufacturing process (28nm), AMD was very focused on increasing performance within the same TDP or lower with Jaguar. The driving motivator? While Bobcat ended up in netbooks, nettops and other low cost, but thick machines, Jaguar needed to go into even thinner form factors: tablets.AMD still has no intentions of getting into the smartphone SoC space, but the Windows 8 (and Android?) tablet market is fair game. Cellular connectivity isn’t a requirement there, particularly at the lower price points, and AMD can easily be a second source alternative to Intel Atom based designs.”


So…… a netbook cpu slimmed down to fit into tablets. What a joke, zen2 shits on this.
 
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The geometry detail is really really bad in that first Infamous screenshot. The road is just one big flat textured polygon, and those broken pieces on top of it are made of like 10 polygons. Meanwhile look at the amount of actual geometry detail for the ground in this Demon's Souls screenshot:



I can't wait until Ragnarok comes out so there can be direct capture comparisons between PS5 and PS4. It is going to be eye opening, though maybe not because I honestly question if eyesight medical problems are a widespread problem with gamers.
 

SlimySnake

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It's a sad sorry state of affairs op. It's not diminishing returns, it's not lazy devs, it's just greedy execs.

They have ruined an entire generation to earn some bigger bonuses. It's disgusting, despicable and dishonest. Only in this industry you can have someone sell you a $500 product that doesn't do what its supposed to do, have next gen games. Their only next gen only game from here on in is going to be released 2 years later. Imagine if you bought a $500 4k bluray player and didn't have a single 4k bluray in 2 year span. They would be sued to oblivion.
 
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Genx3

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People begging for high frame rates got us basically the same graphics as last gen.

Games that have next gen looks like Ratchet and Flight Sim don't have the high frame rates.
 

Hunnybun

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People begging for high frame rates got us basically the same graphics as last gen.

Games that have next gen looks like Ratchet and Flight Sim don't have the high frame rates.

Ratchet runs at 60fps? Looks great, too.
 

Unknown?

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Lie.

They are all in game screenshots I have found randomly on the internet.

The game did look THAT GOOD.

Some people have a very short term memory :messenger_tears_of_joy:
Yes you do because Infamous 2 looked better than that shot you posted.
 

Genx3

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Ratchet runs at 60fps? Looks great, too.
Dynamic 4K 30/40. Runs from 1296P to 4K but mostly hangs around 1800P.

"The standard performance mode turns off ray tracing, reduces scene density, and pares back hair strand count in an effort to target 60 frames per second."

If you want the Next gen effects then you're not running at 60FPS.
 
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ripeavocado

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I'm kinda lost on what the argument is?

I think spiderman 2 is going to look like a ps4 game at 4k with 60 fps.

You can't have all of the massive upgrades in resolution and fps and expect the game to also be even more of a powerhouse visually.

I don't think games will be ugly I just don't think they are going to blow me away like the start of the ps4 did especially with this cross gen nonsense, graphcis mode, and fps modes now being pushed in games.

That's the point of the thread?

The hardware is not there yet, so there will be no generational leap.

At the core-level, Jaguar still looks a lot like Bobcat.The same dual-issue, out-of-order architecture that AMD introduced in 2010 remains intact with Jaguar. The same L1 cache, front end and execution blocks are all still here. Given the ARM transition from a dual-issue, out-of-order core with Cortex A9 to a three-issue, OoO design with the Cortex A15, I expected something similar from AMD. Despite moving to a smaller manufacturing process (28nm), AMD was very focused on increasing performance within the same TDP or lower with Jaguar. The driving motivator? While Bobcat ended up in netbooks, nettops and other low cost, but thick machines, Jaguar needed to go into even thinner form factors: tablets.AMD still has no intentions of getting into the smartphone SoC space, but the Windows 8 (and Android?) tablet market is fair game. Cellular connectivity isn’t a requirement there, particularly at the lower price points, and AMD can easily be a second source alternative to Intel Atom based designs.”


So…… a netbook cpu slimmed down to fit into tablets. What a joke, zen2 shits on this.

This clearly show how ignorant and stubborn you are.

You didn't even take a look a the link I provided: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaguar_(microarchitecture)

No, you wasted time to search some quote from a journalist desperately trying to prove your falsehood.

No Jaguar product comparable to the CPU of PS4 or XB1 was ever used in a netbook at the time.

In fact, the APU of both consoles had much better specs than any other Jaguar apu made for desktops.

Please educate yourself.

You clearly haven't got the first clue what you're talking about dude.

RT in Ratchet is the difference between 1440p and 1800p. That's nearly 40% of the total performance just on RT, even before the acceleration.


I do, you don't.

The thing is that it doesn't require a deep knowledge of ray tracing, but just logic.

RT Cores exist to speed up very expensive tasks.

When you enable RT it doesn't make the games slower, it's supposed to make the game feasible to have the game to look better (Technically can be used to have better and faster things like detailed shadows but it depends on the game.

it makes the game slower if your hardware RT cores are too weak to be used for whatever they are being used by the game.

So if Ratchet lowers its resolution with RT on is only proving my point, the hardware is weak for most meaningful uses of RT at decent resolutions.
 

Hunnybun

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Dynamic 4K 30/40. Runs from 1296P to 4K but mostly hangs around 1800P.

"The standard performance mode turns off ray tracing, reduces scene density, and pares back hair strand count in an effort to target 60 frames per second."

If you want the Next gen effects then you're not running at 60FPS.

I've played it at 60fps non RT and the game looks effectively identical apart from the missing RT.

It's the reduction in resolution in the performance RT mode that's the problem imo.
 

bender

Candy Corn Aficionado
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you sure fam?

doesn't look that much better to me. Feel free to provide your amazing PS3 in game screenshots and amaze us all!


I'm not sure what is worse, those shitty pants or terrible tattoos.
 

Hunnybun

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That's the point of the thread?

The hardware is not there yet, so there will be no generational leap.



This clearly show how ignorant and stubborn you are.

You didn't even take a look a the link I provided: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaguar_(microarchitecture)

No, you wasted time to search some quote from a journalist desperately trying to prove your falsehood.

No Jaguar product comparable to the CPU of PS4 or XB1 was ever used in a netbook at the time.

In fact, the APU of both consoles had much better specs than any other Jaguar apu made for desktops.

Please educate yourself.





I do, you don't.

The thing is that it doesn't require a deep knowledge of ray tracing, but just logic.

RT Cores exist to speed up very expensive tasks.

When you enable RT it doesn't make the games slower, it's supposed to make the game feasible to have the game to look better (Technically can be used to have better and faster things like detailed shadows but it depends on the game.

it makes the game slower if your hardware RT cores are too weak to be used for whatever they are being used by the game.

So if Ratchet lowers its resolution with RT on is only proving my point, the hardware is weak for most meaningful uses of RT at decent resolutions.

You can't simultaneously claim that RT effects don't suck up general GPU resources AND acknowledge that lower resolutions are caused by the employment of RT effects.

You just can't. The second is proof of the first.

Why the fuck am I even engaging you at this point. You're either a troll or a moron.
 
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Exoil

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You can't simultaneously claim that RT effects don't suck up general GPU resources AND acknowledge that lower resolutions are caused by the employment of RT effects.

You just can't. The second is proof of the first.

Why the fuck am I even engaging you at this point. You're either a troll or a moron.
Or both?
 
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NahaNago

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That's the point of the thread?

The hardware is not there yet, so there will be no generational leap..
We technically had a generational leap but the upgraded visuals aren't going to reflect that since we had a large leap in resolution as well. We went from around 720p games on the ps3 with a couple of games at 1080 to mostly 1080p games for ps4 so of course you are going to easily see a generation leap since the resolution didn't upgrade that much versus like 4 times resolution push from the ps4 to ps5.
 
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