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[HL3.exe]

True! After the countless 'but what about next gen GrApHiCs' threads, this video appeared in my feed that articulately presents some issues and rationale behind the discrepancy in modern AAA games with solid arguments, highlighting how modern games are impressive visually, but the underlying game-logic still resembling that of the PS360 era. Hopefully, there will be a significant leap in underlying game logic and structural experimentation following the numerous recent flops in the AAA(A) category. However, it's doubtful, as rather than addressing the core problem, some publishers might opt to exit the AAA space altogether.

Summary:

• Gameplay in AAA has been stagnant and homogenized for the last 10 year.
• Next gen gameplay meaning, the underlying interactive experience that could not be done technically on older hardware. (Ai, physics, game-logic, simulation complexity, reactivity, seamlessness, etc)
• Incremental changes in the form of quality of life are great, but big structural leaps (like games always have done up until the 2010's) have stagnated.
• Reasons are risk-averse nature of the industry, inflating budgets unsustainability and inflexibility.
• Examples given are; Starfield looking next gen, but still playing like Oblivion from 2006. Rockstar still working with a restrictive formula, stifling player creativity, all for the sake of slick presentation.
• Ends on a optimistic note.

I recall the remarkable transitions from Doom to Half-Life, and then to Half-Life 2, each feeling radically different despite all being first-person shooters. Another great example is the progression from Metal Gear Solid 1 to 2 and finally to MGSV, with its incredible systemic underpinnings. The shift from baked lighting in the 90s to dynamic point lights with attached physics is notable. It's why I appreciate the early era of dynamic lighting as developers experimented, combining dynamic lights and physics to create more dynamic environments that players could manipulate, actually making it gameplay relevant, as seen in games like Splinter Cell, Thief 3, and Escape from Butcher Bay, etc.

The leap from Far Cry 1 (2004) to Crysis (2007) with its impressive physical interactivity, necessitating a new CPU just to run the game, stands out. Early open-world shooters like STALKER (2007) found their footing and evolved with Far Cry 3 (2012). The Souls-like subgenre was established with Demon's Souls (2009), and Immersive Sims became more approachable, from Deus Ex (2000) to Dishonored (2012), among others I might be missing. I'm mostly referring to more sophisticated game logic. Think of how much more fun if was crashing a car in GTA IV thanks to heavier and more realistic physics, compared to its earlier versions thanks to the technical leap. The last significant technical gameplay breakthrough I remember is the Mordor game from 2014, utilizing the increased RAM pool and CPU cycles to cleverly simulate recurring enemies, generating small stories through its impressive Nemesis System. A system that simply couldn't run on the PS360 version, so they took it out.

I'm still rocking my (at the time high-end) 2014 CPU paired with a more modern RTX card, and it's still not bottlenecking in modern games, resulting in a smooth 60fps. It's kind of crazy if you think about it; I wouldn't be able to do the same going back another 10 years and using a 2004 CPU in 2014. And seeing as game-logic runs on the CPU side of things. Moreover, it's intriguing to see that a Switch, of all hardware, does a better job in demonstrating a more sophisticated game-logic leap with BOTW/TOTK on a 2017 tablet and is more impressive than most titles on the big consoles. Yes, we've stagnated quite a bit. That's not to say I don't enjoy modern games, and I'm still hopeful for the future. I'm looking forward to stuff like GTA VI, to see what they'll bring to the table technically!

 

[Lucifers Beard]

People seem more concerned about graphics and 60fps over gameplay innovation. Sad really.

 

[hinch7]

At this point of this incredibly slow generation, I'm just ready for games. 'Next gen' graphics, mechanics plus game design be damned.

FFVII Rebirth came in just four years after Remake and beats the living snot out of most AAA games in quality and the sheer amount of content. Priorities.

 

[Skyfox]

You don't like GaaS?!

And the latest games have greatly expanded menu systems with sprinkled microtransactions for you to play with!

Don't you enjoy painstakingly thorough content unlocking procedures to progress each time you repurchase with brand new save files that you can start fresh with for each platform you move to?

Don't you enjoy continuing your adventures exploring progressive political insights into you games via social media?

 

[TheUndeadGamer]

Love the thumbnail to that video.
Will watch it now. Thanks OP.

 

[killatopak]

I don’t even know if I’ll enjoy next gen gameplay. It’s easier to make next gen graphics than next gen gameplay. It’s a lot easier in the past when the medium was new. You also have to deal with it being well received by people.

Next gen gameplay will thrive under indie where you don’t have to sell millions to break even and you’re allowed to experiment stuff without breaking bank as long as you have a niche audience.

 

[Lethal01]

Hardware generations will never be the thing that decides whether be the thing that deciedes whether a game has unique and interesting gameplay.
For every change in gameplay that is caused by or allowed by new hardware there a a hundred more that haven't happened just cause nobody has given it a shot yet.
And these new ideas wont really be objectively better than the old ones, just different.

 

[Guilty_AI]

The problem with the whole idea of "next-gen gameplay" is that it implies "gameplay" is something that needs to constantly evolve, which isn't necessarely true. Sometimes certain "old" formulas work just fine, perhaps a bit of refinement here and there but still largely playing the same.

Of course, you can create new gameplay concepts and take advantage of new tech to realize such ideas, i can think of many games that do such things, but it isn't really a necessity. If anything, i notice people tent to prefer simpler gameplay loops rather than complex systems and mechanics.

 

[Wandering Leopard]

It's a bad idea to look for innovation in the AAA space, you're likely to find safe (proven) mechanics - if you're lucky, you might find highly polished/refined mechanics and presentation.

 

[Matt_Fox]

The success story of this year has been Helldivers 2.

Simple gameplay loop done really well.

 

[SJRB]

What even is "next-gen gameplay"?

 

[HL3.exe]

The problem with the whole idea of "next-gen gameplay" is that it implies "gameplay" is something that needs to constantly evolve, which isn't necessarely true. Sometimes certain "old" formulas work just fine, perhaps a bit of refinement here and there but still largely playing the same.

Of course, you can create new gameplay concepts and take advantage of new tech to realize such ideas, i can think of many games that do such things, but it isn't really a necessity. If anything, i notice people tent to prefer simpler gameplay loops rather than complex systems and mechanics.

True, but I believe there are numerous untapped avenues to create an interesting, reactive, and believable world without relying on established tropes. However, conducting research and development in this direction has become increasingly risky in today's big budget landscape.

 

[Guilty_AI]

True, but I believe there are numerous untapped avenues to create an interesting, reactive, and believable world without relying on established tropes. However, conducting research and development in this direction has become increasingly risky in today's big budget landscape.

You can find plenty of game that explore such places, usually smaller ones that are less risky and need something to stand out from the rest.

It's really not as difficult as you're making it sound, there's no need for some extensive R&D, just creativity and an unique look at the things we have in today's gaming landscape.

 

[HL3.exe]

I don’t even know if I’ll enjoy next gen gameplay. It’s easier to make next gen graphics than next gen gameplay. It’s a lot easier in the past when the medium was new. You also have to deal with it being well received by people.

Next gen gameplay will thrive under indie where you don’t have to sell millions to break even and you’re allowed to experiment stuff without breaking bank as long as you have a niche audience.

The games you love and play now all started with messy and janky beginnings. The trendy survival subgenre games all have their foundation in many eurojank games from the 90's/00's, experimenting on a bigger scale is needed to break boundaries. Experiencing stuff you didn't even know you'd like. Indie filled in that gap, sure. But bigger budget studios have the knowledge and experience to push mechanics and design tropes with the proper R&D and production value, giving it that extra dimensionality. I'm personally more a fan of AA devs and titles, but in this budget climate, they're mostly extinct or lean on the same risk-averse design tropes to break even.

 

[Three]

The only big change in gameplay I've seen was when I got into VR and that's not really something tied to generations but could be done on last gen just fine. First ask yourself what "next gen gameplay" can I introduce then ask could it be done on last gen. The former is difficult and the latter is likely yes.

 

[Killjoy-NL]

People seem more concerned about graphics and 60fps over gameplay innovation. Sad really.

Maybe because we have people complaining non-stop about lack of 60fps and ray-tracing?

 

[lh032]

dragon dogma 2, next gen 30fps.

 

[HL3.exe]

What even is "next-gen gameplay"?

A gameplay experience you can't have on previous generation. A new mechanic, simulation complexity or game-logic that is now possible with a leap in hardware. (Think of it like 'Assassin's Creed 1 not being possible on the PS2' or the simulation and physics leap of GTASA -> GTA IV). A thing that was common and expected in the 90's/00's with every new generation of hardware.

 

[Klik]

Most boring start of new gen ever

 

[Killjoy-NL]

A gameplay experience you can't have on previous generation. A new mechanic, simulation complexity or game-logic that is now possible with a leap in hardware. (Think of it like 'Assassin's Creed 1 not being possible on the PS2'). A thing that was common and expected in the 90's/00's with every new generation of hardware.

Wouldn't the real-time loading-speeds as seen in Ratchet & Clank and Spiderman 2 classify as such?

After all, "next-gen gameplay" will primarily be improvement/evolution of what we've already seen countless times before.

 

[HL3.exe]

Wouldn't the real-time loading-speeds as seen in Ratchet & Clank and Spiderman 2 classify as such?

After all, "next-gen gameplay" will primarily be improvement/evolution of what we've already seen countless times before.

Definitely! only, it's still implemented as presentational gimmick rather than a core gameplay mechanic. If i'm remembering correctly you could only swap in specific planned spots, or it being part of a scriped set-piece. It's rarely used as a flexible player-driven gameplay mechanic (not that they didn't try though).

 

[Slimboy Fat]

People seem more concerned about graphics and 60fps over gameplay innovation. Sad really.

60fps is better gameplay as far as I am concerned. While we haven't seen much innovation there has been non-graphical improvements that make games more enjoyable such as less loading and a move towards open-world designs.

 

[tommycronin]

VR

 

[SmokedMeat]

VR and that’s it.

Otherwise, outside of Nintendo and indies what gameplay?

 

[Markio128]

If gamers wanted innovation they wouldn’t be buying Fifa and COD in droves, and VR would be selling like hot pies.

Also, what the fuck is next gen gameplay? Controlling games with the power of our farts?

 

[SolidQ]

Assassin's Creed 1 not being possible on the PS2

Isn't there was cancelled version PS2 AC?

What even is "next-gen gameplay"?

Something based on physic? We're still don't have physic in games or very minor physic

 

[hyperbertha]

Deus mankind divided and dishonored 2 gave a glimpse into next gen gameplay. Complex immersive sim systems driven gameplay in a relatively large level without loading screens. Hitman trilogy has also come close. Rimworld/dwarf fortress pushes the boundaries of base building sims.

But sadly, such games aren't popular. The average gamer is too stupid to ever want anything more complex than cod/Spiderman.

The only successful example is baldur's gate 3. We'll see if other studios try to emulate it.

 

[The Infectious Paradox]

Check your anus

 

[SHA]

I highly doubt people will jump to next Gen without a fucking clue about contents.

 

[midnightAI]

First, I'll pose this.... Not 'Where', but..... 'What' is next gen gameplay?

(and dont answer something that hasnt been done before, because that is a non-answer)

 

[IAmRei]

For me ToTK, the gameplay, the scale, the physic execution, and the designs are mindblowing. Not the AAA style graphic, but still the gameplay are complex.

 

[crackajack]

Jaguar was on par with Cell, so naturally the only improvements that were done were on the visuals. But I have no clue what current devs do with Zen power, ie not anymore netbook low end crap.

Games like maybe Legendary Tales might be the only glimpses in games trying to wander off known paths. Otherwise the VR-space is also hardly different, not at all achieving the same as 2D to 3D did.

 

[MALpractice311]

Devs are wasting power chasing shit like Lumen and Nanite and Ray Tracing, such that they have no actual horsepower left to program interesting enemy AI and cool physics engines.

 

[Guilty_AI]

First, I'll pose this.... Not 'Where', but..... 'What' is next gen gameplay?

Highly interactive jiggle physics

 

[midnightAI]

Highly interactive jiggle physics

I'm looking forward to Stellar Blade also

 

[rodrigolfp]

What even is "next-gen gameplay"?

Every gameplay on PS6.

 

[Schmendrick]

Definitely far beyond any "last gen" possibilities in other ways than graphics, then again PC isn`t really defined by generations.

 

[Krappadizzle]

I'm playing through Half-Life 2 at the moment on my way up to Alyx. Seems like Alyx is really the only thing I can think of as "next-gen" as I would imagine it. These last 2 generations of games have just been pretty versions of the PS360 generation with a few notable exceptions. Graphics are so good and have been so good for a while I was sure that physics and a.i. would be the next big step we'd see. Maybe by the start of the next-gen we'll see improvements in those areas.

 

[Guilty_AI]

Definitely far beyond any "last gen" possibilities in other ways than graphics, then again PC isn`t really defined by generations.

What the fuck am i even watching, why are there apache helicopters in the middle of a medieval battle?

 

[WitchHunter]

True! After the countless 'but what about next gen GrApHiCs' threads, this video appeared in my feed that articulately presents the issues and rationale behind the discrepancy in modern AAA games, highlighting their impressive visuals but gameplay resembling that of the PS360 era. Hopefully, there will be a significant leap in underlying game logic and structural experimentation following the numerous recent flops in the AAA(A) category. However, it's doubtful, as rather than addressing the core problem, some publishers might opt to exit the AAA space altogether.

Where izz nexgenn gempleyy??
"boomer shooters"

 

[Krappadizzle]

Where izz nexgenn gempleyy??
"boomer shooters"

If ya'll aren't playing Boomer Shooter's, ya'll are missing out. It's the only thing refreshing in the FPS genre that isn't Indie AA Immersive Sims.

 

[Dacvak]

We had a solid 5 or so years back in the mid-late 2000s where the future was so bright for exploratory and novel gameplay. Stuff like Half-Life 2, Mirror’s Edge, Crysis, and Red Faction are just a few examples of games that, at the time, made me think “well things are only gonna get crazier from here on.” I really thought we’d be looking at more physics-based gameplay. Even the Wii—yes, everyone’s favorite wagglebox—had some weird and unique gameplay ideas that devs weren’t afraid to experiment with, for better or worse.

Instead, we’ve taken steps away from that style of experimental gameplay in a lot of ways, and it’s a huge bummer. Most games released these days are so homogenized that you can watch a ten second clip from a trailer and immediately know exactly how that game is going to play and feel. I can’t tell you how dejected and jaded I felt watching that new Xbox Partner Showcase and realizing that like 95% of those games are experiences we’ve already had, just with slightly different visuals and settings.

Where’s the god damn creativity in this industry?

 

[Luipadre]

Nobody cares about gameplay. Every OT and games topic filled with graphics and fps talks. Even FF7 rebirth topics were all about gfx and gfx modes prerelase and that game fucking bangs

 

[Comandr]

Part of the problem is insufficient tools or processing power. We can look at games like Dragon's Dogma 2 as an example of this. Even on the all powerful PS5, the game can only run at 30FPS in most scenarios. With the size of the world and sheer amount of calculations it has to make for physics and interactions, the PS5's processor just can't keep up. Not that Xbox is any better. This isn't a GPU issue. The CPU is just not fast enough to process the sheer number of advanced calculations that people want or are expecting from "next gen gameplay."

I think next gen gameplay will probably be upon us pretty soon; with the advent of unreal 5, LiquiGen, other advanced physics systems, AI in gaming and fully realized interactive NPCs. Being able to interact with the world in a realistic and believable manner.

Yakuza 8 just came out, and it's fantastic. Ichiban can HALLOOO! ALOHA! at everyone and you wave at each other. That's fun. But what if the interaction went deeper. What if you could actually talk to the NPCs, in your own voice, and ask them about their days, where they liked to eat, and- actually act like a real tourist. Like Ichiban, the player doesn't know anything about this area. Where the good restaurants are, good shops selling particular goods, like that fucking tabacco set I can't find; bad areas of town to avoid. Maybe some of them know, maybe some of them don't. What if instead of just running out of range every time a group of thugs shouted HEY ASSHOLE! or WHAT YOU LOOKIN' AT? You could actually talk your way out of it. "Look out behind you!" and then run when they're distracted, or "Don't want any trouble!"

These are just a couple examples on how implementing AI into NPCs with the capacity to react and respond intelligently to dynamic player input could RADICALLY change the way a player played the game. Truly, each playthrough would be unique. And it's not far off.

 

[WitchHunter]

If ya'll are playing Boomer Shooter's, ya'll are missing out. It's the only thing refreshing in the FPS genre that isn't Indie AA Immersive Sims.

The mystical energies of the cosmos intertwine with the ethereal vibrations of the universe, creating a harmonious dance of cosmic proportions. The ancient whispers of the arcane weave through the fabric of reality, guiding those attuned to the secrets of the unseen realms. As the stars align and the moon waxes full, the veil between worlds thins, allowing glimpses into the mysteries that lie beyond mortal comprehension.

 

[WitchHunter]

Part of the problem is insufficient tools or processing power. We can look at games like Dragon's Dogma 2 as an example of this. Even on the all powerful PS5, the game can only run at 30FPS in most scenarios. With the size of the world and sheer amount of calculations it has to make for physics and interactions, the PS5's processor just can't keep up. Not that Xbox is any better. This isn't a GPU issue. The CPU is just not fast enough to process the sheer number of advanced calculations that people want or are expecting from "next gen gameplay."

I think next gen gameplay will probably be upon us pretty soon; with the advent of unreal 5, LiquiGen, other advanced physics systems, AI in gaming and fully realized interactive NPCs. Being able to interact with the world in a realistic and believable manner.

Yakuza 8 just came out, and it's fantastic. Ichiban can HALLOOO! ALOHA! at everyone and you wave at each other. That's fun. But what if the interaction went deeper. What if you could actually talk to the NPCs, in your own voice, and ask them about their days, where they liked to eat, and- actually act like a real tourist. Like Ichiban, the player doesn't know anything about this area. Where the good restaurants are, good shops selling particular goods, like that fucking tabacco set I can't find; bad areas of town to avoid. Maybe some of them know, maybe some of them don't. What if instead of just running out of range every time a group of thugs shouted HEY ASSHOLE! or WHAT YOU LOOKIN' AT? You could actually talk your way out of it. "Look out behind you!" and then run when they're distracted, or "Don't want any trouble!"

These are just a couple examples on how implementing AI into NPCs with the capacity to react and respond intelligently to dynamic player input could RADICALLY change the way a player played the game. Truly, each playthrough would be unique. And it's not far off.

Sky blue. Banana good. Mount Everest tall. Hot sun. Shoes comfy. Banana mountain? No. Stay cool.

 

[AJUMP23]

I hope the game plays for me.

 

[nemiroff]

The video suggests that “innovation” might be like an infinite pool - one you can dip into whenever needed. However, as a designer, I understand that reality doesn’t quite work that way. “Innovation” is a highly ambiguous word, often thrown around casually when one can't articulate thoughts well. And often "innovation" just ends up being a form of iteration anyway - Or even just a first random discovery.

Now with that said, not too long ago I read a paper on "Innovation of Meaning", which IMO is a more tangible and useful framework, also in the gaming industry (context down below).

Innovation of Meaning (IoM) is a framework that aims to innovate the “reason why”
people use a product or service. However, as current research is limited to the strategic
generation phase, and we lack an understanding of how to embody new meaning
in a new solution. This gap is critical, as development teams may pursue a reinterpretation
of meaning strategy, causing the perceived meaning to substantially differ from
the one strategically conceived. Moreover, the current dominant approaches derive
from the design disciplines, which are founded on the opposite principles (outside-in
vs inside-out).

(Which in a way also explains why devs are nervous about changing things up, also hence why indies are more fearless.)

Interestingly, Nintendo infamously followed this framework to a tee with the Wii and the Switch, and it somewhat explains the success.

In one of his most famous examples,
Verganti (2011) describes the case of Wii. In 2006, gaming was
intended as a way to exit from physical reality and immerse in a deep,
virtual one. Nintendo changed the meaning by providing a product
whose use was meant to be social: Gaming as a way to connect more
deeply with family or friends in the real world through virtual support.
Changing the meaning of the console allowed exiting from an overcompetitive
market to become the leading game console in terms of
units sold.

Now, when it comes to games, I think Nintendo has been good at extending this to some of their titles like TotK (despite it looking like ass), and we need more of it from other devs as well.

And remember, there was a lot of criticism of lack of CPU processing power on the PS4 and Xbox One from developers, and many clearly suggested innovations (including physics and animation) happening once better CPUs (XSX and PS5 ) showed up. But did that actually materialize...? Probably not..

 

[rofif]

Definitely far beyond any "last gen" possibilities in other ways than graphics, then again PC isn`t really defined by generations.

Wow such next gen!!! Hold left mouse buttons and shoot at those straight moving targets!
Uebs already exists.

to op. What would you expect of next gen gameplay?! For game to bj you? This is what gaming is. What else do you expect to do.
Elden ring is the peak.

Once we get next gen ai gameplay you will regret this

 

[Bumblebeetuna]

When was the last time we saw something truly special? Maybe the AI in Fear?