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[TheAdlerian]

Is there a way to discuss all this on a meta level without arguing specifics of christianity? As a muslim this is like listening to comic book nerds or tolkien nerds argue specific issues and writer runs.

It's hard to follow, though I am interested in learning the different perspectives. It's just not all of us have the necessary background education of the lore.

Some on here are arguing talking points from lectures.
Some are arguing from points that aren't well thought out, or misinformed.

It would be nice to get a dialogue from people's own reasoning, and without trying to prove their point of view is canon to the lore. For people who aren't fans of that IP and can't follow specific issue runs.

The topic has gotten far removed from what is being said.

The thread topic is weird in and of itself, lol.

 

[Prison Mike]

 

[Airola]

The way I see foreknowledge and things like that is this:

1) Future does not exist, and past does not exist either
2) What has happened exists as ideas, and what can happen exists as ideas too
3) God has the largest possible knowledge that can be in free will existence, or rather, the entity that has the largest possible knowledge that can exist in free will existence, is God.
4) It is logically impossible to know what an entity with free will is going to choose
5) The type of knowledge that allows an entity to know every single free choice beforehand cannot exist, and it's quite like a square circle. It just doesn't exist.
6) If someone is all-knowing, he knows as much as it is logically possible to know.
7) God knows every single combination of choices and every possible outcome, but as those outcomes do not yet exist, they can't be known beforehand even in theory.
8) Constantly some outcomes become removed from the "idea existence" and constantly some outcomes become possible in the "idea existence".
9) Some outcomes can be things that will happen no matter what. In those cases every combination of possible choices and outcomes will bring out a certain outcome that can't be avoided. Those outcomes can be foretold by someone who has an access to that world of ideas. Obviously some events also are more likely to happen that others so sometimes someone who sees into "future" sees something that seems extremely likely to happen but doesn't because some unlikely choices by some people with free will didn't let it happen.
10) God might be able to alter the world to make some certain event become either more likely or unavoidable. The question might be how willing he is to make those divine interventions in a world where we are supposed to have free will.

 

[strange headache]

The way I see foreknowledge and things like that is this:

1) Future does not exist, and past does not exist either
2) What has happened exists as ideas, and what can happen exists as ideas too
3) God has the largest possible knowledge that can be in free will existence, or rather, the entity that has the largest possible knowledge that can exist in free will existence, is God.
4) It is logically impossible to know what an entity with free will is going to choose
5) The type of knowledge that allows an entity to know every single free choice beforehand cannot exist, and it's quite like a square circle. It just doesn't exist.
6) If someone is all-knowing, he knows as much as it is logically possible to know.
7) God knows every single combination of choices and every possible outcome, but as those outcomes do not yet exist, they can't be known beforehand even in theory.
8) Constantly some outcomes become removed from the "idea existence" and constantly some outcomes become possible in the "idea existence".
9) Some outcomes can be things that will happen no matter what. In those cases every combination of possible choices and outcomes will bring out a certain outcome that can't be avoided. Those outcomes can be foretold by someone who has an access to that world of ideas. Obviously some events also are more likely to happen that others so sometimes someone who sees into "future" sees something that seems extremely likely to happen but doesn't because some unlikely choices by some people with free will didn't let it happen.
10) God might be able to alter the world to make some certain event become either more likely or unavoidable. The question might be how willing he is to make those divine interventions in a world where we are supposed to have free will.

This makes less sense than Kyoto Aquarium's penguin relationship flowchart:

 

[sonomamashine]

Is God omnipotent? Does God have a plan?

GOD is perfect, what do you mean when you say plan ?

Jesus was talking for god and is supposed to be one with god, so please.

No i don't understand how someone is supposed to be one with GOD.
1+1=1 ?
is it a half of GOD that got murdered ? or ... please explain.

I have an explanation for that, which again comes from the logic of the Bible. Other religions may have different explanations.

Explanation:

God created angels, but they don't have free will and are not good company for god in heaven. God wants people like him in heaven.

This is all wrong, it doesn't make sense at all.
GOD created angels that are not good company ?
In my religion (Islam) they are worshiping GOD and they have free will like satan has free will.
God wants people like him in heaven ?
What do you mean by like him ? please explain.

God created people, who have free will, and then told them how to be positive beings. Earth is a test to see who wants to be with god and they do that by living and thinking the way god said. So, our free will and choices are what makes us like god and good enough to be in heaven with him.

No being will ever be like GOD, ever, even the messengers.

In heaven, life goes on for eternity. So, the billions of years the universe has existed are nothing compared to how old and how long heaven will last.

Humans live a maximum of like 100 years. It's less on average.

So, even the longest life lasts a microsecond compared to heaven. It would be like complaining you stubbed your toe 20 years ago to complain about your life on Earth when in heaven.

So, every bad thing that happens while we are alive is a test of how we handle it. So, a kid gets cancer, so what are we going to do about it? You get cancer, so are you going to become bitter and hate life now, or still be a calm and nice person? You see all kinds of suffering in the world and do you go help or go hide and play games?

The reason there's suffering is to see what we do about it and how we feel about life anyway.

All of that lasts like a fraction of a second.

When you suffer and get angry at life it's like where you were 8 taking some test you didn't study for and sweating it out and feeling sad. But, when you're 28, that moment won't bother you much.

they have a hard time understanding that this is a test, even if it's a kid, and i explained above that it could be due to many things involved.
unfortunately people get angry at god not at life, that's the issue.

Then go by your definition of omnipotence. Define it, and how it relates to God.

Does His plan include inflicting innocent children with bone cancer?

Everybody is involved in the test, even kids, don't forget about the kids who die everyday because of war, it's not only cancer.

Here is a simple question for you.

Let's say someone asks god about what you will do in a specific day, in 5 years from now. Will he know the answer or not?

Ofc he will. He is all-knowing. So let's say the answer is: "in that day he will crash his car on a tree" or something. He doesn't even need to answer. But he still knows it.

So, since god already knows what you will do in that specific day in 5 years from now... Can you change it? Can you avoid the crash? If yes then you just proved god wrong, no? If you don't crash god was wrong when he thought of the answer. Which means, he isn't all knowing at all. But if you can't change it then it means everything in your life is pre-determined. It's planed. So, explain it to me, if you are forced to follow a divine plan, how is that "free will"? it might look like that because you don't know your future but from the perspective of god, you are just following a plan that you can't avoid.

It's simple logic that you can't get around it. The only thing you can do is raise your shoulders and say "it's god's logic" or "you can't explain god". Which his a simple way to avoid discussion every time you get to a dead end.

Seems like you missed or misunderstood the answer i posted many posts above.
GOD is not forcing you to do anything, you are free to do whatever you want to do, and GOD already knows what your about to do, you can't understand it because your mind is limited, you can't see past the horizon because your eyes are limited.
GOD knows what you - a free willing human is about to do and he's not forcing you to do it, that's the power of GOD.

If god is "all powerful" and "all knowing" then there is no way around it. It's his fault.

He said to Adam and Eve to not eat the apple. Even though he absolutely knew the end result beforehand, so there was no point for him. He knew everything way before he created anything. But the only reason Eve ate the apple is because god let it be that way. He could just make Eve more resistant to temptations or something. But he didn't. So how it's not his own fault/choice? He chose to make her that way and then punished her for that. And cursed all humans in the proccess for some reason.

If you really want to blame humans for their own suffering, you must accept that god is not all-powerful and all-knowing. It's either one or the other.

GOD already knew the end result, that shows that Adam has a free will & was not controlled by GOD, that's contradicts your first post.
GOD told Adam not to eat the apple, the devil came to him thru a snake and SWORE to Adam that if you eat the apple you will live in heaven for ever, it was the FIRST lie EVER and Adam didn't know that someone could swear to GOD and lie, therefore he made a mistake and got send to earth, he (adam) regreted his act and GOD forgave him.

 

[showernota]

showernota If God is omnipotent and has a plan, does that mean his plan is to sometimes give children bone cancer? Why?

Does God give children bone cancer? No. I covered this earlier, only good things come from God. Does God allow suffering to happen? Yes (like I've also already said, foreknowledge and omnipotence does not equal causal determinism).

Why? Because affliction is part of sinful life. However, the good that comes from that affliction, which God uses to further His plan, if greater than the affliction. Suffering can draw us closer to Him, suffering can allow us to comfort others who suffer, and adversity can make us stronger and better people.

If your entire concept of life is living for ~70 years on Earth and then ceasing to exist after death, then you're not going to be receptive to this concept. However, it's all plainly told to us in Scripture. God has never promised us life would be easy, or that we would be free of having to experience the troubles of living in a fallen world. He has, however, promised that it would all be worth it. Considering He has never lied, there's no reason to doubt Him.

Romans 8: 18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us.

Romans 8: 22 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now.

Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

2 Corinthians
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort,
4 who comforts us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort those who are in any trouble, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God.
5 For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also abounds through Christ.

James 1: 12 Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him.

2 Corinthians 4:16 Therefore we do not lose heart. Even though our outward man is perishing, yet the inward man is being renewed day by day.
17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, is working for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory,
18 while we do not look at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen. For the things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Jesus said:

John 16: 33 These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”

It's awesome how weird you got.

Your character is about what you just posted.

You could have read the Sermon on the Mount 50 times already.

You're at best knowingly ignorant, and at worse lying about what the Bible says. Anyone reading this discussion can clearly see you're dodging.

Because they describe different concepts, one does not entail the other.

The prophecy is evidently related to King Ahaz during the Syro-Ephraimite invasion of Judah and the siege of Jerusalem around 735 bce by Syria and the Northern Kingdom, it was taken out of context.

What are the different concepts? Alma refers only to young unmarried women who would be virgins.

The prophecy is taken out of context now? You'll be shocked when you realize that these prophecies were originally written by David almost a thousand years earlier. Is applying them to Jesus taking them out of context?

13 They gape at Me with their mouths, Like a raging and roaring lion.
14 I am poured out like water, And all My bones are out of joint; My heart is like wax; It has melted within Me.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd, And My tongue clings to My jaws;
16 For dogs have surrounded Me; The congregation of the wicked has enclosed Me. They pierced My hands and My feet;
17 I can count all My bones. They look and stare at Me.
18 They divide My garments among them, And for My clothing they cast lots.

Here's Zechariah and Isaiah hundreds of years earlier, not that it matters due to context?:

Zechariah 12: 10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.

Isaiah 50: 6 I gave my back to those who struck me, and my cheeks to those who plucked out my beard; I did not cover my face from shame and spitting.

Isaiah 53:
Who has believed what he has heard from us?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 For he grew up before him like a young plant,
and like a root out of dry ground;
he had no form or majesty that we should look at him,
and no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief;
and as one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions;
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
and with his wounds we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned—every one—to his own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted,
yet he opened not his mouth;
like a lamb that is led to the slaughter,
and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent,
so he opened not his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away;
and as for his generation, who considered
that he was cut off out of the land of the living,
stricken for the transgression of my people?
9 And they made his grave with the wicked
and with a rich man in his death,
although he had done no violence,
and there was no deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him;
he has put him to grief;
when his soul makes an offering for guilt,
he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days;
the will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
11 Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied;
by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant,
make many to be accounted righteous,
and he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many,
and he shall divide the spoil with the strong,
because he poured out his soul to death
and was numbered with the transgressors;
yet he bore the sin of many,
and makes intercession for the transgressors.

 

[01011001]

Had he simply waited 2 thousand years all of his works would have been documented in 4K/HDR/120hz and there wouldn't be holy wars and confusion?

Why bestow this kind of wisdom to illiterate people in the desert?

well, isn't it convenient that it all stopped now that we have ways to not only record all of it but also study stuff scientifically

it's almost like... that shit is all made up nonsense

 

[darkangel-212559]

Maybe you didn't read the right book, maybe those who worship GOD ain't stupid, must be something out there you didn't read.

Yes GOD made it perfectly understandable, why do you think people worship him ? (of course it depends on what you read)

Wrong people knew about GOD since ADAM & EVE, because they descended from heaven.


You need to read real books instead of internet articles, all due respect this is all wrong.

How could you be so sure he's not existing, because you never saw him ?

In my religion i know about revelations & end of time.

You are talking about al jabria, believes that a person is leaded / forced and have no choice because he has no power to choose his actions, which is wrong.
It's like GOD threw you in the ocean and told you not to drawn, this is a misconception of GOD.
GOD knows the future and YOU decide of your own future

Maybe you didn't read the right book, maybe those who worship GOD ain't stupid, must be something out there you didn't read.

Yes GOD made it perfectly understandable, why do you think people worship him ? (of course it depends on what you read)

Wrong people knew about GOD since ADAM & EVE, because they descended from heaven.


You need to read real books instead of internet articles, all due respect this is all wrong.

How could you be so sure he's not existing, because you never saw him ?

In my religion i know about revelations & end of time.

You are talking about al jabria, believes that a person is leaded / forced and have no choice because he has no power to choose his actions, which is wrong.
It's like GOD threw you in the ocean and told you not to drawn, this is a misconception of GOD.
GOD knows the future and YOU decide of your own future and that's the power of GOD, you can't understand because your mind can't process, because you didn't knew he's capable of that, you kinda treating GOD like what a human can do, which is wrong.

'Wrong people knew about GOD since ADAM & EVE, because they descended from heaven.

Actually no. I'm not wrong.

1) Adam and Chava (Eves Hebrew name), did not descend from Heaven. As The Torah records it (Which Christians like to call The first Testiment, which we in Judaism do not), Adam was created from G-D himself using parts of the Earth. 2) Chava was created later after Adam asked for a companion.

2) After they were exiled from The Garden of Eden, knowledge about G-D soon descended into Polytheism, as people started to worship the Sun, Moon and Stars, as they mistakenly thought that these natural entities had their own divine power, rather than believing that it was only G-D who had power, and it was he who controlled the planets, the stars and nature itself.

This then spread into the worshiping of idols more generally, and things got from bad to worse. Noach was born roughly 10 generations after the creation of Adam and Chava in the secular year - 2705. The Jewish year being 1056.

Many years after the birth of Noach was the generation of the flood, after this occurred Abraham was born in the secular year -1813. Jewish year 1948.

By then knowledge of G-D was still known, but it was still within the context of idol worship. Abraham rebelled against that practice, as he knew that there was only 1 G-D and he dedicated his life, along with his wife Sarah, to spread this awareness.

It was not until Moses came along that G-D revealed himself to an entire nation and millions of people literally heard the voice of G-D speak the first three commandments of the 10 commandments and a whole nation, the Jewish people, accepted The Torah onto themselves, of which Moses had received directly from G-D in heaven. The charge then of the Jewish people, is ultimately to be a light unto the nations, to teach about G-D, spread monotheism and to bring spiritual light into the world. Which is following in the steps of our forefathers who themselves did this.

Next time think twice before you tell me I'm 'wrong'. I'm a religous Jew, I know my own history.

 

[sonomamashine]

I quoted you for this

Well actually the first prophet to actually transmit the the word of G-D in a clear and revealed way to an entire nation was Moses. Let's actually give credit where credit is due shall we.

Before Moses there was Abraham and Noah, but they would communicate monotheism, ethics and morals to singular people. So while they were also Prophets, it was with Moses that G-D was actually clearly revealed.

that is wrong, the first prophet was ADAM, Moses is the 15th prophet.

Actually no. I'm not wrong.

1) Adam and Chava (Eves Hebrew name), did not descend from Heaven. As The Torah records it (The first Testiment), Adam was created from G-D himself using parts of the Earth. 2) Chava was created later after Adam asked for a companion.

2) After they were exiled from The Garden of Eden, knowledge about G-D soon descended into Polotheism, as people started to worship the Sun, Moon and Stars, as they mistakenly thought that these natural entities had their own divine power, rather than believing that it was only G-D who had power, and it was he who controlled the planets, the stars and nature itself.

This then spread into the worshiping of idols more generally, and things got from bad to worse. Noach was born roughly 10 generations after the creation of Adam and Chava in the secular year - 2705. The Jewish year being 1056.

Adam was created from GOD himself using parts of the Earth. yes
HAWAA / Chava was created later after Adam asked for a companion. yes
Yes people started to worship the Sun, Moon and Stars, idols etc...
You quoted me for this ? :

Wrong people knew about GOD since ADAM & EVE, because they descended from heaven.

Yes people knew about GOD since Adam & Hawaa / eve, then after a while it got bad, people started to worship .......

Many years after the birth of Noach was the generation of the flood, after this occurred Abraham was born in the secular year -1813. Jewish year 1948.

By then knowledge of G-D was still known, but it was still within the context of idol worship. Abraham rebelled against that practice, as he knew that there was only 1 G-D and he dedicated his life, along with his wife Sarah, to spread this awareness.

It was not until Moses came along that G-D revealed himself to an entire nation and millions of people literally heard the voice of G-D speak the first three commandments of the 10 commandments and a whole nation, the Jewish people, accepted The Torah onto themselves, of which Moses has received directly from G-D in heaven. The charge then of the Jewish people, is ultimately to be a light unto the nations, to teach about G-D, spread monotheism and to bring spiritual light into the world. Which is following in the steps of our forefathers who themselves did this.

NNext time think twice before you tell me I'm 'wrong'. I'm a religous Jew, I know my own history.

Wrong, after NUH / Noah ---> HUD / Eber ---> SALIH ---> IBRAHIM / Abraham.
Abraham rebelled against that practice, then was thrown on fire that didn't affect him by the grace of GOD, yes he dedicated his life to worship GOD, he's the one who built the kaaba.
Moses was sent to pharaon, we all know the story, he was drown...
Moses did rescue bani israel, didn't take them long to worship a golden caw, while Moses went on top of a mountain to worship GOD.
GOD didn't reveal himself to anyone, he spoke with Moussa / Moses, Moses asked to see GOD, GOD told him if that mountain stood still you'll see me, but the mountain crumbled in debrees.
You'll excuse my english, i'm not a native speaker, you'll get the jist.

 

[TheAdlerian]

Does God give children bone cancer? No. I covered this earlier, only good things come from God. Does God allow suffering to happen? Yes (like I've also already said, foreknowledge and omnipotence does not equal causal determinism).

Why? Because affliction is part of sinful life. However, the good that comes from that affliction, which God uses to further His plan, if greater than the affliction. Suffering can draw us closer to Him, suffering can allow us to comfort others who suffer, and adversity can make us stronger and better people.

If your entire concept of life is living for ~70 years on Earth and then ceasing to exist after death, then you're not going to be receptive to this concept. However, it's all plainly told to us in Scripture. God has never promised us life would be easy, or that we would be free of having to experience the troubles of living in a fallen world. He has, however, promised that it would all be worth it. Considering He has never lied, there's no reason to doubt Him.






Jesus said:




You're at best knowingly ignorant, and at worse lying about what the Bible says. Anyone reading this discussion can clearly see you're dodging.



What are the different concepts? Alma refers only to young unmarried women who would be virgins.

The prophecy is taken out of context now? You'll be shocked when you realize that these prophecies were originally written by David almost a thousand years earlier. Is applying them to Jesus taking them out of context?

Here's Zechariah and Isaiah hundreds of years earlier, not that it matters due to context?:

You are ignorantly arguing something anyone can look up and read in minutes.

It must be awesome to be that stupid.

 

[TheAdlerian]

This is all wrong, it doesn't make sense at all.
GOD created angels that are not good company ?
In my religion (Islam) they are worshiping GOD and they have free will like satan has free will.
God wants people like him in heaven ?
What do you mean by like him ? please explain.

It is right and makes sense.

You can google it but angels have far less free will than humans. They are servants of god in a way that humans could not be. For instance, if god tells an angel to go to point A, the angel is not going to wander off or ignore god's command. So, angels are beings but far more limited in choice than humans.

In Islam god creates humans and jinn and they can do whatever they want to. We aren't servants of god.

Humans:

God created humans because we can reject him and aren't his pets or slaves. So, those people who live like god are people who truly people deserving of being in heaven. Infidels in Islam are people who rejected god before birth and blatantly do not want to follow his laws. So, they will not go to heaven. People who do follow them will go to heaven.

God created humans because he wanted to, they are beings he made to see what they do and if they want to join him in heaven.

At the end of the Bible, only a small number of people will go to heaven and when they get there they will spend eternity in bliss with god.

People who are like god:

Those are people who are kind, giving, creative, love the world around them, and basically appreciate all of the life that god gave them.

In simple terms, god is an artist and painted an amazing picture for you. If you like what he painted and take care of it, then you are an art lover, like god.

 

[showernota]

You are ignorantly arguing something anyone can look up and read in minutes.

Here's the entirety of the sermon on the mount. You'll avoid telling us which verse Jesus says all sins are equal.

5 1 And seeing the multitudes, He went up on a mountain, and when He was seated His disciples came to Him. 2 Then He opened His mouth and taught them, saying:​

3 "Blessed are the poor in spirit, For theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 4 Blessed are those who mourn, For they shall be comforted. 5 Blessed are the meek, For they shall inherit the earth. 6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, For they shall be filled. 7 Blessed are the merciful, For they shall obtain mercy. 8 Blessed are the pure in heart, For they shall see God. 9 Blessed are the peacemakers, For they shall be called sons of God. 10 Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, For theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 11 "Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. 12 Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
13 "You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt loses its flavor, how shall it be seasoned? It is then good for nothing but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot by men.

The Light of the World​

14 You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. 16Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.

Jesus' Attitude toward the Law​

17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus' Attitude toward Anger​

21 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.' 22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire. 23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. 26 Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.

Jesus' Attitude toward Adultery​

27 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not commit adultery.' 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.

Jesus' Attitude toward Divorce​

31 "Furthermore it has been said, 'Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.' 32 But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery.

Jesus' Attitude toward Oaths​

33 "Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord.' 34 But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God's throne; 35 nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. 36 Nor shall you swear by your head, because you cannot make one hair white or black. 37 But let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No.' For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.

Love for Enemies​

38 "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' 39 But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40 If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. 41 And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. 42 Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away.
43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.
6 1 "Take heed that you do not do your charitable deeds before men, to be seen by them. Otherwise you have no reward from your Father in heaven. 2 Therefore, when you do a charitable deed, do not sound a trumpet before you as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory from men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. 3 But when you do a charitable deed, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 that your charitable deed may be in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will Himself reward you openly.
5 "And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. 6 But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly. 7 And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words. 8 Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him.

9 In this manner, therefore, pray: Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. 10 Your kingdom come. Your will be done On earth as it is in heaven. 11 Give us this day our daily bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, As we forgive our debtors. 13 And do not lead us into temptation, But deliver us from the evil one. For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen. 14 "For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Jesus' Teaching on Fasting​

16 "Moreover, when you fast, do not be like the hypocrites, with a sad countenance. For they disfigure their faces that they may appear to men to be fasting. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. 17 But you, when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face, 18 so that you do not appear to men to be fasting, but to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly.

Treasure in Heaven​

19 "Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; 20 but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
22 "The lamp of the body is the eye. If therefore your eye is good, your whole body will be full of light. 23 But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in you is darkness, how great is that darkness!

God and Mammon​

24 "No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.

Care and Anxiety​

25 "Therefore I say to you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink; nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food and the body more than clothing? 26 Look at the birds of the air, for they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? 27 Which of you by worrying can add one cubit to his stature? 28 So why do you worry about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin; 29 and yet I say to you that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 30 Now if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is, and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will He not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? 31 Therefore do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' 32 For after all these things the Gentiles seek. For your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. 33 But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about its own things. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble.

Judging Others​

7 1 "Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. 3 And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me remove the speck from your eye'; and look, a plank is in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye. 6 Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces.
7 "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. 9 Or what man is there among you who, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent? 11 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!
12 Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

The Narrow Gate​

13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

I Never Knew You​

21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' 23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'
24 "Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: 25 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: 27 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall." 28 And so it was, when Jesus had ended these sayings, that the people were astonished at His teaching, 29 for He taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

 

[ArtemisClydeFrog]

Infidels in Islam are people who rejected god before birth and blatantly do not want to follow his laws. So, they will not go to heaven.

lmao what the fuck? Rejected god before birth?

 

[showernota]

It is right and makes sense.

You can google it but angels have far less free will than humans. They are servants of god in a way that humans could not be. For instance, if god tells an angel to go to point A, the angel is not going to wander off or ignore god's command. So, angels are beings but far more limited in choice than humans.

Jude 6: 6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.

Revelation 12: 7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought,
8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer.

1 Corinthians 6: 3 Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life?

In Islam god creates humans and jinn and they can do whatever they want to. We aren't servants of god.

Now you're wrong about everything islam too. There's no free will there.

Surah 32: 13. Had We willed, We could have given every soul its guidance, but the declaration from Me will come true: “I will fill Hell with jinn and humans, altogether.”

Surah 7:
178. Whomever Allah guides is the guided one. And whomever He sends astray—these are the losers.
179. We have destined for Hell multitudes of jinn and humans

Sahih Muslim 6256a: There was argument between Adam and Moses. Moses said to Adam: You are our father. You did us harm and caused us to get out of Paradise. Adam said to him: You are Moses. Allah selected you (for direct conversation with you) and wrote with His own Hand the Book (Torah) for you. Despite this you blame me for an act which Allah had ordained for me forty years before He created me.

Sahih Muslim 2658a: Allah fixed the very portion of adultery which a man will indulge in. There would be no escape from it.

Surah 76:
29. This is a reminder; so whoever wills, let him take a path to his Lord.
30. Yet you cannot will, unless Allah wills. Allah is Knowing and Wise.
31. He admits into His mercy whomever He wills. But as for the wrongdoers, He has prepared for them a painful punishment.

 

[TheAdlerian]

lmao what the fuck? Rejected god before birth?

Judaism and Islam are pretty much the same religion at the core.

I cannot remember the technical term for this idea, but both religions believe that your spirit before birth is a full version of you. Before birth and angel comes and tells you all about judaism/islam, which is god's law.

If you accept it, you are born a jew/muslim. If you do not you are born an infidel.

An infidel is a criminal against god because you rejected god.

They believe that no matter what an infidel says, deep inside they remember rejecting god and know the correct religion. However, due to being such perverts, they will act like they can't remember.

In judaism/islam you aren't to make friends with any infidel even if they're nice because they are perverts. It's your job to destroy infidels, lie to them, rape them, steal from them, murder them, and subvert their societies. All of those are Jewish "mitzvots" which are holy duties. Muslims have the same commands.

If you look at this from a cult perspective, it's great brainwashing to create a bunch of savage criminal followers. You convince people that wrong is right and allow them to indulge in every vice men enjoy, which feeling good.

Also, you create massive paranoia in followers by making them feel surrounded. Everything is bad coming from the infidel. A smile has something evil behind it because it's from the infidel.

So, your nice neighbor deserves to be murdered because he is your nice neighbor! He's trying to seduce us!

Very sinister and all of that is a major reason people have hated jews for so long.

 

[German Hops]

lmao what the fuck? Rejected god before birth?

Yeah, this discussion just went full on Asperger.

 

[ArtemisClydeFrog]

 

[Soodanim]

You’re focused on human behavior to moral truth, rather than the concept of moral truth itself. You’re saying some guys thousands of years ago made up morals. Before that, people did not have a conscience?

That’s the opposite of what I’m saying. I'm saying morals are intrinsic to us because we know what we don't want to happen to us. We don't want to be attacked, or stolen from, etc. Morality is based on these common things. The concept of moral truth is moral relativism from one entity (God or person(s) that wrote that part of the bible, depending on your belief) presented as moral absolutism.

Do you have children? It’s an extreme belief to think all morals are taught. What about the children who are naturally good? Why do we perceive them as being naturally good?

You've taken an example of a boisterous child who doesn't realise he's hurting another child way off course. I didn't say morals are taught at all. If children are perceived as naturally good, it's because they are a blank slate in the sense that they haven't acquired negative traits and they have no biases outside of instinct. Children don't judge people. But children can also lack empathy. We all know that kids can be cruel.

Evolution is survival of the fittest. At what point did that change, and what benefit does it give us?

Not sure how this came into it, but okay. Evolution by way of natural selection is subverted by human interference keeping those who wouldn't otherwise survive alive long enough to reproduce. The second part of your question is too broad for me to answer.

God was not pissed, He was grieved.


Again, you’re arguing that it would be more normal for God to have made us automatons and played with us like dolls. Free will means no determinism. Foreknowledge does not mean causation.

How does God ‘scrapping it all’ make more sense? God can’t make a mistake, so your preferred version of a god is already illogical. God is merciful, which is why He clothed Adam and Eve and designed a plan for redeeming mankind.

God was sad that something he made and knew would go wrong (omniscience) went wrong. Cool.

I'm saying that God set up this little Petri dish experiment, made some rules, picked a random time in humanity's timeline to throw it at them, dropped in at a few times to do things like send a couple bears to maul some children, sent his son to absolve everyone of not following the rules he made, then since then there's been an ever decreasing number of reasons to believe he exists at all. If he really wanted people to follow his rules, he would let it be known. But no, it's all "mysterious ways".

If scrapping it all doesn't sense, what was that flood about? That was a few animals short of hitting the reset button.

Make world
Make rules
Let people not follow rules
Give people lack of reasons to follow rules
Get mad (sorry, sad) when people don't follow rules
Kill most of the world for not following rules
People still don't follow rules
Flooding didn't work
God can't make a mistake, but he still changed his tactics after being vengeful didn't work
Sends son to say "Okay I forgive you, here's some miracles"
Nothing since in this entire age of technology, science, discovery, and evidence

That's what this whole thread is about.

The stories fall apart in the modern age because we have access to so much more information, both in the sense of other religions and our ever growing understanding of the universe. Not to mention we stopped killing people who question it.

If God can't make a mistake, then his choice to create humans with free will is not a mistake, and by extension what happens with that free will because he knew the possibilities when he did it. Or is this a case of his washing his hands of the whole affair? "I just lit a fire over here, I didn't make the fire spread and burn down that entire building. Not my fault, I'm without fault here."

Would you have a child, knowing it will need it’s diaper changed before it’s potty-trained, then ‘scrap’ the child when it’s time to change the diaper and start over with a new one? That would be crazy behavior. The other option would be to get a robot baby with no actual life.

This misses the point. It's not that God made mistakes and there's a better way, it's that it's not true anyway and it all falls apart. That's why "God of the gaps" exists, because people keep stripping it back to still be relevant. Creationism's gone for most people, they're all just stories. That's already the case for the entire Bible, if you ask some people that follow it. It's a long form Aesop's fables designed to teach through metaphor, and outside of the teachings that are worth listening to it has no factual relevance.

 

[kuncol02]

At the end of the Bible, only a small number of people will go to heaven and when they get there they will spend eternity in bliss with god.

What you think that means:

Apocalypse 7:9​

After this I saw a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and tribes, and peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne, and in sight of the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands

 

[darkangel-212559]

I quoted you for this

that is wrong, the first prophet was ADAM, Moses is the 15th prophet.


Adam was created from GOD himself using parts of the Earth. yes
HAWAA / Chava was created later after Adam asked for a companion. yes
Yes people started to worship the Sun, Moon and Stars, idols etc...
You quoted me for this ? :

Yes people knew about GOD since Adam & Hawaa / eve, then after a while it got bad, people started to worship .......

Wrong, after NUH / Noah ---> HUD / Eber ---> SALIH ---> IBRAHIM / Abraham.
Abraham rebelled against that practice, then was thrown on fire that didn't affect him by the grace of GOD, yes he dedicated his life to worship GOD, he's the one who built the kaaba.
Moses was sent to pharaon, we all know the story, he was drown...
Moses did rescue bani israel, didn't take them long to worship a golden caw, while Moses went on top of a mountain to worship GOD.
GOD didn't reveal himself to anyone, he spoke with Moussa / Moses, Moses asked to see GOD, GOD told him if that mountain stood still you'll see me, but the mountain crumbled in debrees.
You'll excuse my english, i'm not a native speaker, you'll get the jist.

I don't go by The Koran. And I will not engage in further discussion with you on this topic.

The same goes for the rest of this thread. I get too emotionally involved, which is not good for my state of being.

 

[TheAdlerian]

What you think that means:

Apocalypse 7:9​

After this I saw a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and tribes, and peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne, and in sight of the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands

I assume that's the idea that all humanity will be judged at the end of the world.

There's two different ideas with the one being that when we die we go to heaven and the other is that everyone waits until the end of the world and then they go or don't.

 

[TheAdlerian]

Yeah, this discussion just went full on Asperger.

What is "retarded" is not reading the religious books and then talking about them.

You guys are like people talking a movie and you never saw it.

Why would you do that?

 

[kuncol02]

I assume that's the idea that all humanity will be judged at the end of the world.

There's two different ideas with the one being that when we die we go to heaven and the other is that everyone waits until the end of the world and then they go or don't.

And there you are fundamentally wrong. In very same chapter you have answer who they are.

Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”
I answered, “Sir, you know.”
And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore,
“they are before the throne of God
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne
will shelter them with his presence.
‘Never again will they hunger;
never again will they thirst.
The sun will not beat down on them,
nor any scorching heat.
For the Lamb at the center of the throne
will be their shepherd;
‘he will lead them to springs of living water.
‘And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.’"

That are people AFTER judgement. Bible says that straight there.

 

[TheAdlerian]

And there you are fundamentally wrong. In very same chapter you have answer who they are.

Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”
I answered, “Sir, you know.”
And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore,
“they are before the throne of God
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne
will shelter them with his presence.
‘Never again will they hunger;
never again will they thirst.
The sun will not beat down on them,
nor any scorching heat.
For the Lamb at the center of the throne
will be their shepherd;
‘he will lead them to springs of living water.
‘And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.’"

That are people AFTER judgement. Bible says that straight there.

What you quoted is from the beginning of Revelations, not the end, lol.

 

[lukilladog]

Does God give children bone cancer? No. I covered this earlier, only good things come from God. Does God allow suffering to happen? Yes (like I've also already said, foreknowledge and omnipotence does not equal causal determinism).

Why? Because affliction is part of sinful life. However, the good that comes from that affliction, which God uses to further His plan, if greater than the affliction. Suffering can draw us closer to Him, suffering can allow us to comfort others who suffer, and adversity can make us stronger and better people.

If your entire concept of life is living for ~70 years on Earth and then ceasing to exist after death, then you're not going to be receptive to this concept. However, it's all plainly told to us in Scripture. God has never promised us life would be easy, or that we would be free of having to experience the troubles of living in a fallen world. He has, however, promised that it would all be worth it. Considering He has never lied, there's no reason to doubt Him.






Jesus said:




You're at best knowingly ignorant, and at worse lying about what the Bible says. Anyone reading this discussion can clearly see you're dodging.



What are the different concepts? Alma refers only to young unmarried women who would be virgins.

The prophecy is taken out of context now? You'll be shocked when you realize that these prophecies were originally written by David almost a thousand years earlier. Is applying them to Jesus taking them out of context?

Here's Zechariah and Isaiah hundreds of years earlier, not that it matters due to context?:

Not necessarily virgins, there is consensus on that...but that is a moot point, remember that we are talking about a very specific prophecy here which doesn´t apply to Jesus, because putting aside the 700 year mismatch on the siege of Jerusalem which is when that prophecy could have been fulfilled, it would have been uttered when the woman was young and if you wish, virgin. But it doesn´t mention a miraculous birth, in the original verse they used the word "harah" (to conceive), in perfect tense, the best translation of the verse is that the young woman was already pregnant, Isaiah was predicting the child´s gender, and directed her to name him Emmanuel.

 

[lukilladog]

I'm saying morals are intrinsic to us because we know what we don't want to happen to us. We don't want to be attacked, or stolen from, etc. Morality is based on these common things. The concept of moral truth is moral relativism from one entity (God or person(s) that wrote that part of the bible, depending on your belief) presented as moral absolutism.

But animals have some access to morals too I think?, you don´t like moral realism?. And this moral relativism from a deity, I think it depends on whether he dictates morals on reason or not, if he does it arbitrarily you would be right but theologians would not concede that I think, but if he does it on reason then he is not the source of morality right?

 

[showernota]

That’s the opposite of what I’m saying. I'm saying morals are intrinsic to us because we know what we don't want to happen to us. We don't want to be attacked, or stolen from, etc. Morality is based on these common things. The concept of moral truth is moral relativism from one entity (God or person(s) that wrote that part of the bible, depending on your belief) presented as moral absolutism.

“It’s a concept taught to kids at an early age” is how you described morals, and now you’re changing your argument.

You’re saying that morals are intrinsic because no one wants something bad to happen to them. Let’s go back to what you told us Jesus said:

Matthew 7:12 “Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

Now let’s look at other ‘religions’ negative version of this principle, which is similar to your interpretation:

Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful.
— Udanavarga 5:18

Do not do unto others whatever is injurious to yourself.
— Shayast-na-Shayast 13.29

If the entire Dharma can be said in a few words, then it is—that which is unfavorable to us, do not do that to others.

— Padmapuraana, shrushti 19/357–358

One of those is morally superior, because it is applied on a positive sense versus a negative sense.

You've taken an example of a boisterous child who doesn't realise he's hurting another child way off course. I didn't say morals are taught at all.

You said verbatim that morals are taught.

If children are perceived as naturally good, it's because they are a blank slate in the sense that they haven't acquired negative traits and they have no biases outside of instinct.

Ok, but where does the ‘instinct’ for good come from? Why would we even have a concept of good and bad?

Children don't judge people. But children can also lack empathy. We all know that kids can be cruel.

Kids can be cruel, but not all kids. The point is there is no chemistry in our body that would cause us to perceive universal moral standards. Most people would feel guilt over physically hurting another person, it’s not a learned trait. Some don’t, obviously, but that is a slim fraction.

Not sure how this came into it, but okay. Evolution by way of natural selection is subverted by human interference keeping those who wouldn't otherwise survive alive long enough to reproduce. The second part of your question is too broad for me to answer.

Where does the impetus for human interference come from? Why isn’t it just survival of the fitrest

God was sad that something he made and knew would go wrong (omniscience) went wrong. Cool.

Thanks for agreeing He wasn’t pissed off at humans.

Again, your only other option is robot people with no free will. What would even be the point of creation?

I'm saying that God set up this little Petri dish experiment, made some rules, picked a random time in humanity's timeline to throw it at them, dropped in at a few times to do things like send a couple bears to maul some children, sent his son to absolve everyone of not following the rules he made,

Real quick, Jesus does not absolve ‘everyone.’ Only those who repent, confess He is their savior, and believe in the grace He gave us.

then since then there's been an ever decreasing number of reasons to believe he exists at all. If he really wanted people to follow his rules, he would let it be known. But no, it's all "mysterious ways".

This is all covered:

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith [it is] impossible to please [Him,] for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and [that] He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

If scrapping it all doesn't sense, what was that flood about? That was a few animals short of hitting the reset button.

You said scrap it at Adam and Eve, meaning scrapping mankind. Did God scrap mankind?

If God can't make a mistake, then his choice to create humans with free will is not a mistake, and by extension what happens with that free will because he knew the possibilities when he did it. Or is this a case of his washing his hands of the whole affair? "I just lit a fire over here, I didn't make the fire spread and burn down that entire building. Not my fault, I'm without fault here."

Again, your only other option is no free will. God would be playing with dolls. What a terrible god that would be.

What you quoted is from the beginning of Revelations, not the end, lol.

Revelation*

Not necessarily virgins, there is consensus on that...but that is a moot point, remember that we are talking about a very specific prophecy here which doesn´t apply to Jesus, because putting aside the 700 year mismatch on the siege of Jerusalem which is when that prophecy could have been fulfilled, it would have been uttered when the woman was young and if you wish, virgin. But it doesn´t mention a miraculous birth, in the original verse they used the word "harah" (to conceive), in perfect tense, the best translation of the verse is that the young woman was already pregnant, Isaiah was predicting the child´s gender, and directed her to name him Emmanuel.

I disagree the point is moot. It is the first and strongest argument against the virgin birth of Jesus, and we see it falls apart completely when actually looked at.

It also goes back to “a child born from a woman” is a dumb sign. Judaism god has bad signs.

So what came of that prophecy according to Singer? God told it to Isaiah and it was never resolved?

 

[Soodanim]

“It’s a concept taught to kids at an early age” is how you described morals, and now you’re changing your argument.

You’re saying that morals are intrinsic because no one wants something bad to happen to them. Let’s go back to what you told us Jesus said:

Now let’s look at other ‘religions’ negative version of this principle, which is similar to your interpretation:




One of those is morally superior, because it is applied on a positive sense versus a negative sense.

You said verbatim that morals are taught.

Ok, but where does the ‘instinct’ for good come from? Why would we even have a concept of good and bad?

Kids can be cruel, but not all kids. The point is there is no chemistry in our body that would cause us to perceive universal moral standards. Most people would feel guilt over physically hurting another person, it’s not a learned trait. Some don’t, obviously, but that is a slim fraction.

Where does the impetus for human interference come from? Why isn’t it just survival of the fitrest

Thanks for agreeing He wasn’t pissed off at humans.

Again, your only other option is robot people with no free will. What would even be the point of creation?

Real quick, Jesus does not absolve ‘everyone.’ Only those who repent, confess He is their savior, and believe in the grace He gave us.

This is all covered:


You said scrap it at Adam and Eve, meaning scrapping mankind. Did God scrap mankind?

Again, your only other option is no free will. God would be playing with dolls. What a terrible god that would be.



Revelation*


I disagree the point is moot. It is the first and strongest argument against the virgin birth of Jesus, and we see it falls apart completely when actually looked at.

It also goes back to “a child born from a woman” is a dumb sign. Judaism god has bad signs.

So what came of that prophecy according to Singer? God told it to Isaiah and it was never resolved?

Nope, no argument changed. The only thing I'll change is the wording, because you didn't get what I'm saying. You focused way too much on the kids part, when really that was only said to demonstrate how basic and elementary the whole concept is when you're asserting you need deities to tell you whether it's right or wrong to randomly smack someone in the face. So, to put it all together one last time: It's such a basic, shared concept that humans have, that any adult can tell you the same basic things. It's so basic in fact, that you can tell a child that is hurting someone when they're a bit too excited "You wouldn't like it if they did that to you" and they get it.

How on Earth is Jesus' version morally superior just because you prefer the way it's worded? All you've done is prove that moral truth isn't Christian thing, rather a concept that transcends any one religion. Honestly, this point was so far-fetched that I'm starting to suspect you're trolling.

Instincts come from the same place all instincts come from.

Of course there's no chemical that would cause us to perceive universal moral standards in that sense, because universal moral standards. It goes back to instinct and empathy. Dogs display the same characteristics, it's not that special. It's part of natural selection. The animals that look after their groups tend to live, and the ones that go off without caring about others have a higher chance of dying and a lower chance of mating to reproduce. That ties into your question about interfering with natural selection, too. Empathy gives us people who take care of the sick. Combine that with those that have the curiosity and desire to understand the world, and you have modern medicine.

What would be the point? Great question. What was the point of God doing this in the first place? What is the point in creating a world then condemning the vast majority to hell or purgatory for not following the rules? Why didn't he pop his head in earlier and cut through all the other gods that existed to the cultures worldwide up to that point? Could have saved himself some trouble if he had a word with Egypt 3000 years earlier and cut through that pantheon before it got going.

You're scoffing at the idea that God might start again, but what was Noah's Ark and the flood all about if not starting again? A soft reboot and a hard reboot are still reboots.

The Christian god as described isn't that great even without being the terrible doll maker.
Make humans
Let them do what they want, love them anyway
Except if you don't worship me, it's one of the big 10

Where's the freedom in that? Is it truly free will if you're punished for not being free the precise way he wants you to be?

 

[showernota]

Nope, no argument changed. The only thing I'll change is the wording, because you didn't get what I'm saying. You focused way too much on the kids part, when really that was only said to demonstrate how basic and elementary the whole concept is when you're asserting you need deities to tell you whether it's right or wrong to randomly smack someone in the face. So, to put it all together one last time: It's such a basic, shared concept that humans have, that any adult can tell you the same basic things. It's so basic in fact, that you can tell a child that is hurting someone when they're a bit too excited "You wouldn't like it if they did that to you" and they get it.

Ok, We'll move on from you saying morals are taught. Now they're a basic shared concept. I'll ask the same question I've been asking, why and how do morals exist? If we are just matter in motion, what mechanism in mankind has determined that stealing is wrong, or that cruelty to animals is evil? Why can we even differentiate between good and evil, and why does it make a difference to us if something is good or bad?

Usually children see the response of the hurt child, and feel guilt. Why do they feel guilt? We're still just talking about the behavior exhibited in response to objective morals.

How on Earth is Jesus' version morally superior just because you prefer the way it's worded? All you've done is prove that moral truth isn't Christian thing, rather a concept that transcends any one religion. Honestly, this point was so far-fetched that I'm starting to suspect you're trolling.

I'll make it more clear. Jesus said "Treat people the way you want to be treated," i.e, "Be good to people." The others say "Don't do evil things to other people, because then they'll do something bad to you." No need for the ad hominem.

Instincts come from the same place all instincts come from.

Instincts that respond to some sort of intangible moral rule, in this case.

Of course there's no chemical that would cause us to perceive universal moral standards in that sense, because universal moral standards. It goes back to instinct and empathy. Dogs display the same characteristics, it's not that special. It's part of natural selection. The animals that look after their groups tend to live, and the ones that go off without caring about others have a higher chance of dying and a lower chance of mating to reproduce. That ties into your question about interfering with natural selection, too. Empathy gives us people who take care of the sick. Combine that with those that have the curiosity and desire to understand the world, and you have modern medicine.

Animals are also fine with stealing, murdering, sexual assault, cannibalism, etc. I would not say animals have similar moral standards to humans. Can they behave altruistically, certainly.

Humans have empathy and care for the sick, that's great. If it was scientifically determined that sick people should all die for the good of the world, that would be bad right?

What would be the point? Great question. What was the point of God doing this in the first place? What is the point in creating a world then condemning the vast majority to hell or purgatory for not following the rules?

No one is forced to do what they do. We all have the same opportunity to come to God. Also, again, arbitrarily 'following the rules' is not what Christianity is:

John 3: 36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Why didn't he pop his head in earlier and cut through all the other gods that existed to the cultures worldwide up to that point? Could have saved himself some trouble if he had a word with Egypt 3000 years earlier and cut through that pantheon before it got going.

We already covered why He doesn't pop in now (mysterious ways, as you put it), so apply that.

You're scoffing at the idea that God might start again, but what was Noah's Ark and the flood all about if not starting again? A soft reboot and a hard reboot are still reboots.

You said scrap Adam and Eve. Meaning the end of mankind, and God making a new race of puppet people. We're still the same naturally sinful people, so we weren't scrapped, reset, or rebooted.

The Christian god as described isn't that great even without being the terrible doll maker.
Make humans
Let them do what they want, love them anyway
Except if you don't worship me, it's one of the big 10

Where's the freedom in that? Is it truly free will if you're punished for not being free the precise way he wants you to be?

If you can consider God exists, and you're upset He wants you to have a relationship with Him, you're probably overemphasizing how 'precise' it is. Why wouldn't you worship the creator of reality? This his very "But DAAAAAD!" energy,

 

[strange headache]

Why wouldn't you worship the creator of reality? This his very "But DAAAAAD!" energy,

Why would an omnipotent and omniscient being care about being worshipped?
God seeking to be worshipped would imply a need that he cannot fulfill himself, which would imply that he's not omnipotent.

If god does not want to be worshipped, then why worship him? You don't worship the universe for merely containing all of reality.
This is religion's ultimate downfall, its portrayal of an omnipotent and omniscient creator makes no goddamn sense.

There is no god and of there would be one, he certainly would not be anything like described by monotheism.

 

[showernota]

Why would an omnipotent and omniscient being care about being worshipped?
God seeking to be worshipped would imply a need that he cannot fulfill himself, which would imply that he's not omnipotent.

Does God need to be worshipped? You say it implies a need because of what, exactly? You say need because now you can imply what you want.

It does imply that the creation of mankind was at least equally good in comparison to a static state of aseity to God.

If god does not want to be worshipped, then why worship him? You don't worship the universe for merely containing all of reality.

Now you say God does(not) want to be worshipped. Where do you get that from?

How about God expects and desires to be worshipped. The desire in this case, is because our eternal salvation depends on it:

1 Timothy 2: 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

2 Peter 3: 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

This is religion's ultimate downfall, its portrayal of an omnipotent and omniscient creator makes no goddamn sense.

There is no god and of there would be one, he certainly would not be anything like described by monotheism.

He certainly would not be anything like described by you, in this case.

 

[Cravis]

 

[TheAdlerian]

Why would an omnipotent and omniscient being care about being worshipped?
God seeking to be worshipped would imply a need that he cannot fulfill himself, which would imply that he's not omnipotent.

If god does not want to be worshipped, then why worship him? You don't worship the universe for merely containing all of reality.
This is religion's ultimate downfall, its portrayal of an omnipotent and omniscient creator makes no goddamn sense.

There is no god and of there would be one, he certainly would not be anything like described by monotheism.

A famous philosopher named Spinoza talked all about this stuff in the 1600s.

He was Jewish and wrote a book called A treatise of Religion that debunks judaism and says it's all mythology and invented around Roman times by narcisstic hustlers. The jews tried to have him assassinated and he had to move to Holland.

Spinoza goes on the point out that the whole idea of worshiping type religions makes no sense for the reasons you said and more. There's no real sense in practicing a religion as if there's a god he has a plan, he has thought of everything, and so you asking for things or hoping for them isn't going to change his mind.

If they do change his mind then something wacky is going on because you were capable of thinking of better outcomes than him.

I could argue against that but that's what Spinoza thought.

 

[Kev Kev]

 

[showernota]

A famous philosopher named Spinoza talked all about this stuff in the 1600s.

He was Jewish and wrote a book called A treatise of Religion that debunks judaism and says it's all mythology and invented around Roman times by narcisstic hustlers. The jews tried to have him assassinated and he had to move to Holland.

We have evidence of Hebrew beliefs from as early as ~600 BC and the dead sea scrolls from ~400 BC, hundreds of years before the Romans.

Meaning the Macedonians, then Persians, then Seleucids were in control of region during that period. The Seleucids tried to destroy Judaism in favor of Hellenistic beliefs long before the Romans showed up.

 

[Gunslinger]

Everyone would have complained that Jesus is a white male and not a black women.

Given the region he was born he was probably not white if i had to guess.

 

[TheAdlerian]

We have evidence of Hebrew beliefs from as early as ~600 BC and the dead sea scrolls from ~400 BC, hundreds of years before the Romans.

Meaning the Macedonians, then Persians, then Seleucids were in control of region during that period. The Seleucids tried to destroy Judaism in favor of Hellenistic beliefs long before the Romans showed up.

AROUND THE TIME OF THE ROMANS.

Hinduism can be traced back to ancient Lithuania but that's not where it took off, it took those people traveling to India for it to take off.

Meanwhile, there's no archeological proof that much of any of the Jewish stories were real. Spinoza, Voltaire, and modern researchers assume that they were probably a band of desert pirate types who lived outside of Egypt.

 

[TheAdlerian]

Given the region he was born he was probably not white if i had to guess.

If Jesus ever existed he was likely an Indian type white person.

The Aryan migration went from Eastern Europe across Europe and then another brand went down through India and up into the mideast.

That can be traced through Indo-European languages and similarities among religions. For instance, Egyptian religion, Greek, and Nordic are all the same but with morphed names and whatnot due to time and distance. In the mideast, Mithras, Zoroastrianism, etc are all related to Indian religions that morphed into what I mentioned and Judaism and christianity.

That's why people in the mideast are either obviously white or mixed with black, like Arabs. It's why they look like some Hispanics as it's the same concept genetically.

 

[PleaseDontBanMe]

i wish Israel and Palestine would stop beefing

all life is precious

all lives matter

 

[Soodanim]

Ok, We'll move on from you saying morals are taught. Now they're a basic shared concept. I'll ask the same question I've been asking, why and how do morals exist? If we are just matter in motion, what mechanism in mankind has determined that stealing is wrong, or that cruelty to animals is evil? Why can we even differentiate between good and evil, and why does it make a difference to us if something is good or bad?

Usually children see the response of the hurt child, and feel guilt. Why do they feel guilt? We're still just talking about the behavior exhibited in response to objective morals.

I'll make it more clear. Jesus said "Treat people the way you want to be treated," i.e, "Be good to people." The others say "Don't do evil things to other people, because then they'll do something bad to you." No need for the ad hominem.

Instincts that respond to some sort of intangible moral rule, in this case.

Animals are also fine with stealing, murdering, sexual assault, cannibalism, etc. I would not say animals have similar moral standards to humans. Can they behave altruistically, certainly.

Humans have empathy and care for the sick, that's great. If it was scientifically determined that sick people should all die for the good of the world, that would be bad right?

No one is forced to do what they do. We all have the same opportunity to come to God. Also, again, arbitrarily 'following the rules' is not what Christianity is:


We already covered why He doesn't pop in now (mysterious ways, as you put it), so apply that.

You said scrap Adam and Eve. Meaning the end of mankind, and God making a new race of puppet people. We're still the same naturally sinful people, so we weren't scrapped, reset, or rebooted.

If you can consider God exists, and you're upset He wants you to have a relationship with Him, you're probably overemphasizing how 'precise' it is. Why wouldn't you worship the creator of reality? This his very "But DAAAAAD!" energy,

You're still asking the question I've answered. Animals that look after each other stay alive. Pack/herd survival breeds empathy by way of exclusion of the solo creatures. We evolved from animals that live in groups. We say stealing is wrong because we don't want to be stolen from, and that's something pretty much every human has in common.

Ad hominem would be addressing you instead of the argument. I'm saying the argument is so flawed and without logic that it makes me question your intentions, because I struggle to see how you could honestly present that argument with a straight face. "Do unto others" is a neutral line at best. It covers everything, including bad and good. The others are in no way inferior. Notice how you had to use id est to explain what it meant by extension? Same goes for the others. Actually, if you want to get into it, the neutral stance permits negative action so long as the person doing it doesn't mind, so an unempathetic person just got a green light from Jesus. The others specifically say not to do harmful things. To take it even further, the 10 Commandments from the same religion tell you what not to do. Are they morally inferior because of the way they are worded?

Questions about the greater good would be outside of the scope of this discussion. I will say, though, that if we are talking about for the good of this planet and all species included, humans are the one species that is both fucking the planet up and would not ruin the food chain if we weren't here. Look how much better the world got when places started being locked down. It didn't take long for nature to start cleaning up.

John 3:36. Thanks for that. Here's what that is comparable to:
You are stood on a trap door. You are surrounded by doors, each with a person next to it. You've been told by each of the people that their door will lead you to safety, and that the others will lead to your death. Staying on the trap door will also lead to your death. The people tell a different version of their story. Some have been there longer, some are newer. But ultimately none of them are more convincing than the others, as they can't prove anything to you - only stories.

That's what this is. You've just proven to me that you're free to not choose correctly and spend eternity in hell. Nice free choice that is. Cheers, Yahweh. What a nice bloke you are.

Why wouldn't I want to worship the creator of reality? I've been given no reason to. I've not been given a single bit of evidence that leads me to believe any of it is anything more than stories to be thrown in the pile with the rest of mythology with the only difference being that monotheism makes for less varied stories. At least with a pantheon you've got something to work with for modern fiction.

If God wants to poke his head through my window and explain to me what's going on, I'm all ears. Hopefully on that day he can drop off a copy of the Bible without all the contradictions too, I'll happily read the whole thing.

 

[German Hops]

If God wants to poke his head through my window and explain to me what's going on, I'm all ears. Hopefully on that day he can drop off a copy of the Bible without all the contradictions too, I'll happily read the whole thing.

 

[strange headache]

Does God need to be worshipped? You say it implies a need because of what, exactly? You say need because now you can imply what you want.
How about God expects and desires to be worshipped. The desire in this case, is because our eternal salvation depends on it:

Please read my comment more carefully.

I was talking about the paradoxical result that arises if an omnipotent being needs or desires (it's the same thing really) to be worshipped. Why would an omnipotent being have the desire to be worshipped? It is frikkin' omnipotent. If it desires something then only because it cannot fulfill that need on its own, which would mean that it is not omnipotent.

So either your god is not omnipotent, hence his desire, or he is omnipotent and doesn't need to be worshipped. In any case, worshipping an omnipotent being is paradoxical and dumb.

A famous philosopher named Spinoza talked all about this stuff in the 1600s.

There is a pretty cool modern interpretation of that problem in one of the older Star Trek movies:

 

[ResilientBanana]

Consistent miracles would have been grand and a way of life which would have been a no brained.

 

[showernota]

You're still asking the question I've answered. Animals that look after each other stay alive. Pack/herd survival breeds empathy by way of exclusion of the solo creatures. We evolved from animals that live in groups. We say stealing is wrong because we don't want to be stolen from, and that's something pretty much every human has in common.

I think we’ve reached an impasse. The intrinsic feelings of guilt and shame are a result from hurting others, not simplY fearing the same experience.

Ad hominem would be addressing you instead of the argument.

You can do both at the same time

"Do unto others" is a neutral line at best. It covers everything, including bad and good. The others are in no way inferior. Notice how you had to use id est to explain what it meant by extension? Same goes for the others. Actually, if you want to get into it, the neutral stance permits negative action so long as the person doing it doesn't mind, so an unempathetic person just got a green light from Jesus.

Taken in a vacuum, sure. Since we’ve been discussing Christianity, I assumed I didn’t have to cover every base.

It is definitely not ‘neutral.’ Most people complain that Jesus is too extreme in His expectations of goodness (which is the point, all fall short of being good enough for God, which is why belief in Jesus is necessary to be good enough).

Luke 6: 35 “But love your enemies, do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High. For He is kind to the unthankful and evil.
36 “Therefore be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful.

Jesus does not imply permission to not do good, even of the other person ‘doesn’t mind.’

The others specifically say not to do harmful things. To take it even further, the 10 Commandments from the same religion tell you what not to do. Are they morally inferior because of the way they are worded?

I was explicitly comparing the multiple ‘golden rules.’ Why would I argue that we’re told what not to do by God? That would be incorrect. I’m not aware of analogs to other religions, but I’m sure they would be inferior.

Questions about the greater good would be outside of the scope of this discussion. I will say, though, that if we are talking about for the good of this planet and all species included, humans are the one species that is both fucking the planet up and would not ruin the food chain if we weren't here. Look how much better the world got when places started being locked down. It didn't take long for nature to start cleaning up.

Ok. I’d be a firm “that’s bad” if someone suggested sick and weak people be killed.

John 3:36. Thanks for that. Here's what that is comparable to:
You are stood on a trap door. You are surrounded by doors, each with a person next to it. You've been told by each of the people that their door will lead you to safety, and that the others will lead to your death. Staying on the trap door will also lead to your death. The people tell a different version of their story. Some have been there longer, some are newer.

That’s a misrepresentation and extreme oversimplification.

No one is isolated and relying on any person to arbitrarily pick a belief. Would you go to a car lot and just buy whatever a random person said was good? And your example is completely disregarding how bad other religions are.

But ultimately none of them are more convincing than the others, as they can't prove anything to you - only stories.

The hindu caste system and acceptance of human sacrifice convinces me it would not be what God wants.

The same goes for islam.

Quran (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

Sahih Muslim (1:33) - "I have been commanded to fight against people so long as they do not declare that there is no god but Allah, and he who professed it was guaranteed the protection of his property and life on my behalf except for the right affairs rest with Allah.'s

Anyone can look at these and go “that god(s) doesn’t sound good.” It’s easy to say “they’re all the same, poor people could be tricked into ‘picking’ the wrong door.” if you don’t know anything about the options.

That's what this is. You've just proven to me that you're free to not choose correctly and spend eternity in hell. Nice free choice that is. Cheers, Yahweh. What a nice bloke you are.

How else would free choice work? You’re here with all the information, and choosing to not believe. What if everyone is like you, consciously choosing to disregard everything?

Why wouldn't I want to worship the creator of reality? I've been given no reason to. I've not been given a single bit of evidence that leads me to believe any of it is anything more than stories to be thrown in the pile with the rest of mythology with the only difference being that monotheism makes for less varied stories. At least with a pantheon you've got something to work with for modern fiction.

Again, how much of other religions do you know? I’m saying the creator of reality entered creation, and died for us. All we have to do it believe that. There are no goofy rituals, no specific number of prayers, no worshipping livestock.

Now contrast that with other mythologies, and see what those gods do for people.

If God wants to poke his head through my window and explain to me what's going on, I'm all ears.

I’m also discussing with someone else that God ‘needs’ to be worshipped. And here you are saying that if God proved to you He existed you’d believe. This isn’t really directed at you, I just thought it was interesting.

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown [it] to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible [attributes] are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

Hopefully on that day he can drop off a copy of the Bible without all the contradictions too, I'll happily read the whole thing.

This would take us way off track, but I’d love to see you and German Hops ‘s best examples of contradictions in the Bible.

Please read my comment more carefully.

I was talking about the paradoxical result that arises if an omnipotent being needs or desires (it's the same thing really) to be worshipped.

Again, ‘needs’ and ‘desires’ are demonstrably not the same thing. That’s like saying ‘prefers’ and ‘must have’ are synonyms. Your entire argument is built on ignoring what words actually mean.

 

[strange headache]

Again, ‘needs’ and ‘desires’ are demonstrably not the same thing. That’s like saying ‘prefers’ and ‘must have’ are synonyms. Your entire argument is built on ignoring what words actually mean.

Again, your entire response is based on a semantics game in order to circumvent the more pressing paradoxical issue of an omnipotent "desiring" to be worshipped.
Why would an omnipotent being "desire" worship? Why would it express desire for anything really? If you're omnipotent, you've already got everything you need!

 

[Airola]

Please read my comment more carefully.

I was talking about the paradoxical result that arises if an omnipotent being needs or desires (it's the same thing really) to be worshipped. Why would an omnipotent being have the desire to be worshipped? It is frikkin' omnipotent. If it desires something then only because it cannot fulfill that need on its own, which would mean that it is not omnipotent.

So either your god is not omnipotent, hence his desire, or he is omnipotent and doesn't need to be worshipped. In any case, worshipping an omnipotent being is paradoxical and dumb.

Your view on love is weird.

It is a different thing to get someone to love and worship you by their own free will than forcing someone to love or worship you with your omnipotent power. If you don't understand the difference between them then I don't know what to tell you. Even though both ways makes the end result seem to be the same, they are not the same.

 

[strange headache]

It is a different thing to get someone to love and worship you by their own free will than forcing someone to love or worship you with your omnipotent power. If you don't understand the difference between them then I don't know what to tell you. Even though both ways makes the end result seem to be the same, they are not the same.

What part of "omnipotent" do you not understand?

 

[nkarafo]

The only reason people believe in god is because it's convenient.

As a sentient species that is aware of it's own mortality, the idea of not existing doesn't feel good. We can't even perceive the concept of nothingness. Plus, our egos are so big, we can't accept that space/time/matter will continue to exist without us experiencing them in some way.

So, religion comes in and offers us the thing we need the most. Everlasting existence. That's different than immortality. You still die but your "soul" still exists. It's not over yet. It will never be over. Maybe you will end up in heaven, feeling good 24/7. Or maybe you will end up in hell feeling bad 24/7. Maybe you will re-live as some other person. Maybe you'll become a ghost, stacking books and trolling the living ones because that looked fun in that movie you saw. Whatever, the point is that you will still exist in some way because you didn't live 70+ years, building up your memories, skills and personality for nothing! Fuck that!

Additionally, religion also offers bonus stuff like cosmic justice. The idea that a bad person will ultimately pay the price and a good person will be rewarded in the end. Such nice thoughts.

I wish reality was that interesting and magical. I would dig that. I also don't like the idea of not existing because i also have a huge ego and i want it to float in the universe forever. But the difference between me and a theist is that i know the difference between the truth and something that just makes me feel better.

I made discussions with other theists in the past and the conclusion is always the same. They literally believe in god because that's what makes them feel better and safer, not because it's necessarily the truth. I bet most theists know this back in their heads but they don't want to admit it.

 

[showernota]

Again, your entire response is based on a semantics game in order to circumvent the more pressing paradoxical issue of an omnipotent "desiring" to be worshipped.

I’m not, I’m just not going to play along with a false premise.

Why would an omnipotent being "desire" worship? Why would it express desire for anything really? If you're omnipotent, you've already got everything you need!

You’re working under the limited assumption that omnipotence means 100% sovereign control of everything at all times.

1, we are given free will, meaning God does not control everything we do (He could, but He does not).
2, God desires worship (I’ll call it love from now on) because why wouldn’t He?
3, Omnipotence does not mean you have everything, but the capability to have everything.
4, Can anyone have love if the love comes from someone who has no choice? It’s illogical.

You have a problem with the free will of man, not the omnipotence of God.

 

[Airola]

What part of "omnipotent" do you not understand?

Tell me how I'm wrong with "It is a different thing to get someone to love and worship you by their own free will than forcing someone to love or worship you with your omnipotent power."

Do you think someone being omnipotent requires that entity/person to make everyone love and worship him?