Dilma has been a terrible president but trying to bypass institutions to remove her from power has result in this. You can't denounce these moves as anti democratic but look the other way when it was the opposition doing it, or thinking of it as a "lesser evil", or "we'll get Cunha next!" kind of thoughts. You either believe in democracy's autoregulation or you don't.
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Brazil is in the Middle of a f***** Outrage right now
- Thread starter KeyChainDude
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What was bypassed?
The institutions weren't bypassed. The judiciary, via the Supreme Court, and the Legislative are following the Constitution to the letter. Until today's circus, that is, which will be overturned by either the Supreme Court, the House or both and then things will proceed as normal.
I do. Impeachment is a democratic process.
There is no institution being bypassed, everything is being done entirely according to the law unless you interpret the law in such a way so that every institution, including the supreme court, is breaking the law.
This now is a stunt. You can't compare the two other than by saying "politicians do stuff".
No institutions were bypassed.
Ok bypass might be the wrong word, more like bend around the system. The opposition went for impeachment without a solid case, and expecting that Dilma's decline in popularity was going to be enough.
How is today's circus not following the Constitution? In paper so far everything is proceeding as normal, I'm not lawyer though but as far as I can see no law was "broken" here.
But that's what the process is for. To decide if the case is solid or not.
If the senate votes against, then that's it. I will be sad that the outcome I think is right didn't happened, but hey, that's democracy, you don't always get what you want.
If the supreme court says it is bullshit, I trust they know their stuff better than I do.
If I think everyone is wrong or in a conspiracy; I will try and vote for politicians who echo those feelings (or become a crazy person who thinks everyone is in a conspiracy against me and there is no choice, but to take arms and raise hell), but anyway, see how this is a normal democratic issue?
You can apply this reasoning to any law that passes or not.
I don't know. This is one of the issues. It was such a weird move, nobody knows even who should answer it, if the supreme court or the senate.
Right now it seems just that, a weird move, it doesn't seem like something this person has the power to do and I believe some other institution will say it so and keep him in check.
If it turns out he has the power to do this, then I'll be bummed, but, well, back to answer number 1.
It does seems like he shouldn't be allowed to do what he just did, tho. But it isn't something he did and other people checked to see if he could do, then voted on it and so on and so on; he just went and done it and now Brasilia is paralyzed because of this one dude's actions.
No, they went for the impeachment expecting to get two thirds of Congress to approve. In fact the impeachment process that was opened in the House was written by a founding member of the Worker's Party (yep!) as well as one of the most respected jurists in the country. The legal basis is sound.
You agree with the basis of the argument used to nullify the vote of more than two thirds of the House of Representatives?
In the same way they used to nulify the vote of 54 million brazilians =P
The moment the impeachment started the way it started (with Cunha and everyone), it was destined to chaos
The Brazilians that voted for president also voted for the House of Representatives and Senate, and they will judge her impeachment over the next 6 months following the Constitution, as sanctioned by the Supreme Court. That's how our democracy works.
Those same millions of people voted for Congress as their representatives.
Are you even trying?
Yes. Very hard.
The moment Dilma has illegally used the government machine to win the re-election, it was destined to chaos.
Let's not kid ourselves that the problem began with the impeachment.
The moment Pedro Álvares Cabral put his feet on this country was the moment everything was destined to chaos, lets not kid ourselves.
Actually, you are quite right!
http://economics.mit.edu/files/4123
Institutions set forth by the type of colonization of different parts of the world have significant, long-lasting impacts on the stability and institutions today.
When in a supposedly democratic vote people were praising the dictatorship and other insanity in such vote you have to at least take a second look at how that went down.
And I know the argument is bs, but that voting was pretty disgusting and anti-Dilma people were giving it a pass because I guess the end justify the means or something, and this is the problem I'm talking about.
Tiu Neo
Member
That's not what I wanted to say (it was a joke, of course), but I still remember learning about this on my history classes, and it's kinda interesting.
Bolsonaro is an ultra-conservative crazy man. He represents the 1% of ultra-conservatives that voted for him, that's part of every democracy in the world. He was booed by several people in Congress while making his hate speech and will be prosecuted for it. That doesn't absolve Dilma of her own crimes.
I know, I just couldn't help it, it's a nice and surprising study. It has been questioned and the data reevaluated multiple times and the results are still robust
http://g1.globo.com/politica/proces...cisao-em-de-anular-sessao-do-impeachment.html
LOLOLOL
back to square one!
The speaker of the House himself has removed his own annulment of the impeachment proceedings!
LOLOLOL
back to square one!
The speaker of the House himself has removed his own annulment of the impeachment proceedings!
LMAO
Basically: a governor here (from the Maranhão state) and the "federal public attorney" (no idea how to call the "advogado-Geral da União" in english, sorry) instructed the lower house speaker to annull the impeachment process, because the senate would "obviously" accept this shit and stop the process that's already ongoing there. This governor from the communist party, by the way) promised support for a future senate candidacy of the current speaker, and as he's a Dilma's supporter, so it was an easy decision to him.
But things obviously didn't go as expected, as the senate speaker dismissed completely this annulment, as the impeachment is already ongoing and to be voted tomorrow in the senate, so the governor is saying that he didn't promise anything to the house speaker, the attorney (that admitted talking to him about this annulment) also said that didn't promise anything, the house speaker already backtracked on his decision to try to save his position in his party (spoilers: he won't, he'll be kicked soon) and is basically abandoned, trying to explain what he did.
And as he did this without consulting ANYONE from the lower house, not even the technical board of the lower house, he's probably going to suffer a process from the ethical committee for his actions yesterday and is at risk of losing his position as a deputy.
This is Brazil.
Basically: a governor here (from the Maranhão state) and the "federal public attorney" (no idea how to call the "advogado-Geral da União" in english, sorry) instructed the lower house speaker to annull the impeachment process, because the senate would "obviously" accept this shit and stop the process that's already ongoing there. This governor from the communist party, by the way) promised support for a future senate candidacy of the current speaker, and as he's a Dilma's supporter, so it was an easy decision to him.
But things obviously didn't go as expected, as the senate speaker dismissed completely this annulment, as the impeachment is already ongoing and to be voted tomorrow in the senate, so the governor is saying that he didn't promise anything to the house speaker, the attorney (that admitted talking to him about this annulment) also said that didn't promise anything, the house speaker already backtracked on his decision to try to save his position in his party (spoilers: he won't, he'll be kicked soon) and is basically abandoned, trying to explain what he did.
And as he did this without consulting ANYONE from the lower house, not even the technical board of the lower house, he's probably going to suffer a process from the ethical committee for his actions yesterday and is at risk of losing his position as a deputy.
This is Brazil.
ldcommando
Banned
Sarney approves
Pro government groups scaring the commerce, forcing people that don't agree with them to close their store's doors:
https://www.facebook.com/FortalezaCidadeDaLuz/videos/900236670085055/
They're repeating "CLOSE THE DOORS"
Another one, breaking store's products:
https://www.facebook.com/cdentista/videos/907069572753647/
https://www.facebook.com/FortalezaCidadeDaLuz/videos/900236670085055/
They're repeating "CLOSE THE DOORS"
Another one, breaking store's products:
https://www.facebook.com/cdentista/videos/907069572753647/
forknknife
Banned
OK, I really won't bother doing that. It's an extremely obvious thing and the government support these actions, but to not waste my time I'll just edit the post and remove that sentence, and apologize for posting without proof.
ldcommando
Banned
Some reporters got assaulted as well.
Here's a picture of the government's palace yesterday:
Yep, they "occupied" a federal building with political propaganda. From the same organizations you see in the other two videos.
lol, you know it, I know it, everyone knows it.
His righteous indignation is transparent.
forknknife
Banned
They don't need to pay anybody. People go out on the streets because they are pissed, and some will do stupid shit like those in that video.
Exactly the same as the people on those protests in the OP with the only difference being that the anti-impeachment supporters are at least not riddled with bigots racist misogynist homophobes, and that's an important detail.
You're really comparing 20 people burning tires and closing roads to 1.5 million people out on the streets. Okay then.
Raijin_Cain
Member
DILMA IS OFFICIALLY OFF THE JOB!
OK, only for up to 6 months as the Senate will now judge her case.
But everyone says its almost impossible she will come back.
In fact in the Senate vote, the opposition only needed 41 votes. They had 55.
To kick her out for good, they will need 54.
So even on this first vote opposition already had all the votes they needed.
Im very happy that this corrupt group that had been leeching my country for 13 years is finally being kicked.
Also, to end on a lighter note, a little .GIF edited to images of Lula this morning:
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a320/skybart/lula.1_1.gif
OK, only for up to 6 months as the Senate will now judge her case.
But everyone says its almost impossible she will come back.
In fact in the Senate vote, the opposition only needed 41 votes. They had 55.
To kick her out for good, they will need 54.
So even on this first vote opposition already had all the votes they needed.
Im very happy that this corrupt group that had been leeching my country for 13 years is finally being kicked.
Also, to end on a lighter note, a little .GIF edited to images of Lula this morning:
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a320/skybart/lula.1_1.gif
The new government is corrupt, sure, but the old government was corrupt and incompetent. That incompetency cause the greatest recession we've had in 80 years.
I'm reading everywhere that this was an coup de grace disguised as an impeachment, where media manipulated everyone.
Is this really true? Is funny to see some people on Chile taking sides with obvious political colors, so I trust more on the actual brasilians who live there instead of the guys with agendas on my country (even though those same brasilians could had agendas too)
Is this really true? Is funny to see some people on Chile taking sides with obvious political colors, so I trust more on the actual brasilians who live there instead of the guys with agendas on my country (even though those same brasilians could had agendas too)
No it wasn't a coup. The Constitution was followed to the letter, as recognized by Supreme Court multiple times (and 8 of the 11 justices were nominated by Lula and Dilma).
The constitution was followed from beginning to end.
The controversy is whether or not the manipulations of the budget can be considered enough for an impeachment or not. Legal experts are divided, with the country's supreme court saying yes and the country's association of lawyers also saying yes. I would argue that, having seen the nearly hundreds of hours of the defense's argument on why the impeachment is not legal, I was left utterly unconvinced (go back to the first few pages and you will see that I had the opposite opinion at first). The financial operations authorized by the presidency went against the laws of the country, hence the impeachment.
The government is obviously screaming coup, and will do so for the foreseeable future (ironically, they requested 50+ impeachments when they were opposition).
As someone who voted for the impeached person, it was not a coup.
People saying it was a coup believe in the most contrived conspiration theory possible. They have to believe that the Federal Police (managed by the Federal Government, which Dilma was the leader) was in the coup, together with the judiciary, the legislative, the media, the "market". All that because they don't like PT, even though Lula had 80% approval rating when he left - after one of our biggest corruption scandals (meaning people do not care for who is in power, not even what is happening, if the economy is improving, everyone is happy).
But after the commodity burst, Dilma has taken a very populist approach (freezing prices, spending money, corrupting everything on the way) that got us deeper into this economical/political mess. There's no one to blame other than Dilma herself (she should have resigned last year). So i'm glad this is over and we can focus on fixing her mess now.
It depends on your definition of coup.
It was an oficialy elected goverment being taken without proving a single accusation against her, but they followed every law on this, even if the person who started the impeachment was one of the most corrupt politicians in this country, who belongs to the political party of the vice president that now has majority on the senate, chamber of deputies and presidency.
Actually, the officially elected president was replaced by the officially elected vice-president, and as mentioned above the accusations had ample legal backing.
No amount of reading the script and repeating this fallacy will make it true.
The impeachment was started by one of PT's founder. Cunha just accepted.
And even then, are you forgetting that the 2/3 of both houses and STF (the majority appointed by Lula and Dilma) are ok with this?
How can you claim coup is beyond reason.
LOL
Probably not, but it should.
So far the only thing the new president did was to appoint a new ministery and he already screwed up some.
coup d'etat.
Lol I mixed it with finn balor finisher, thanks for the clarification
forknknife
Banned
Why don't you all go out on the streets to protest against the fact that political parties keep members under investigation for corruption in their teams?
Seems weird to me that all those millions of people get so livid and go out on the streets for a case of missmanagement and you stay home while watching a bunch of corrupts take over the government like they deserve it.
If this is really an anti corruption movement as so many of you say and not a biased political one against Dilma's government then show it, damn it.
Seems weird to me that all those millions of people get so livid and go out on the streets for a case of missmanagement and you stay home while watching a bunch of corrupts take over the government like they deserve it.
If this is really an anti corruption movement as so many of you say and not a biased political one against Dilma's government then show it, damn it.
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