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[assurdum]

Dont be silly man.

Control is a different level of Raytracing, he is specifically saying Industry leading on Console because he knows if he says Industry Leading outright, someone will show him gameplay of full wormage Control.

ND for instance can say Industry Leading facial animations because theres nowhere in the Industry they arent in that tier.
Insomniac cant say the same for raytracing, they are industry leading on console because there arent better examples of Raytracing right now on console.
But there are better examples of Raytracing in the Industry as a whole.
And Control is that example.

I dont want to derail the thread but this is just an overview of what Control is doing with Raytracing:
Ray-Traced Reflections
Ray-Traced Transparent Reflections
Ray-Traced Indirect Diffuse Lighting (Cheaper than full GI so not quite the full wormage of what RT is capable of)
Ray-Traced Contact Shadows
Ray-Traced Debris

I'm not want to sound pedantic but Control too has lot of compromise to achieve RT. If I'm not wrong it's extremely low resolution buffer and I'm not entirely sure if their ray tracing reflections is better of what we seen in Spiderman. Sure, raytracing in Controls get a lot more use, so it's definitely a step up but it's not without compromise. We should see how it works something like this by some first parties Sony because it s hard to evaluate if Control is the only more advanced tech possible for the industry to raytrace a game.

 

[Knitted Knight]

Here is a good question for the mental gymnastics driven folk:

Is Control a more graphically impressive looking game than Miles Morales? Considering all that's being rendered on a moment to moment basis at any given time?

Because if the exercise is a disengenous one throwing buzzwords around for purity's sake then Minecraft is King.

 

[Allnamestakenlol]

I mean, it does look good, but how many RT games are there on console? Just sounds funny to say you're the industry leader when there's little in the way of competition.

 

[Knitted Knight]

I mean, it does look good, but how many RT games are there on console? Just sounds funny to say you're the industry leader when there's little in the way of competition.

That's not Insomniac's fault. Other platforms depending on multiplats will always be at a disadvantage. But then again, those are the shortcomings of those platforms.

 

[Black_Stride]

Yeah, sounds cool and all, but the problem is that Control doesn't impress in overall IQ. It looks okay-ish, even good with RT, but nothing compared to MM.

Maybe Cyberpunk can take the cake. We'll see.

IQ?....Image Quality?

Do you mean art style/art direction....which is fair. Not every technically amazing game is universally considered beautiful, and Controls skin shader isnt the best ive seen.
I always thought Days Gone was technically amazing but looked generic as fuck....Fortnite RT technically amazing fuck that artstyle to hell.
So if its an artstyle critique thats impossible for me to change.....and I mostly agree I think Spiderman from an Artistic standpoint is a better looking game......from a technical perspective...Control is another league.

Is that a game?

Yup Control.

 

[Birdo]

He walks like Jar Jar Binks

 

[Imtjnotu]

Doesnt matter. Fully path traced. End of story.

 

[assurdum]

Here is a good question for the mental gymnastics driven folk:

Is Control a more graphically impressive looking game than Miles Morales? Considering all that's being rendered on a moment to moment basis at any given time?

Because if the exercise is a disengenous one throwing buzzwords around for purity's sake then Minecraft is King.

More Metro Exodus on pc.

 

[onQ123]

Yup Control.

That look really good

 

[Knitted Knight]

More Metro Exodus on pc.

What about it? Same as Control more or less. It's not beating Spider-man's rendering pipeline with the amount of stuff that's rendered on screen - nor at the speed that is rendered either at the flip of a swing.

 

[Stuart360]

Here is a good question for the mental gymnastics driven folk:

Is Control a more graphically impressive looking game than Miles Morales? Considering all that's being rendered on a moment to moment basis at any given time?

Because if the exercise is a disengenous one throwing buzzwords around for purity's sake then Minecraft is King.

As a PC gamer, Control is NOT a more impressive game than MM. In fact i feel its graphics are overrated, and have said the same on here many times. If you are talking purely RT, then its not even a fair comparison as MM is mostly reflections, while Control is mostly lighting (while also having some reflections).

MM is by far the better looking game, with or without RT.

 

[assurdum]

What about it? Same as Control more or less. It's not beating Spider-man's rendering pipeline with the amount of stuff that's rendered on screen - nor at the speed that is rendered either at the flip of a swing.

Raytracing is more used too compared Spiderman. There isn't nothing of superior in the Spiderman pipeline compared to a pc game with an enthusiastic graphic setting from what I know.

 

[Black_Stride]

Here is a good question for the mental gymnastics driven folk:

Is Control a more graphically impressive looking game than Miles Morales? Considering all that's being rendered on a moment to moment basis at any given time?

Because if the exercise is a disengenous one throwing buzzwords around for purity's sake then Minecraft is King.

So from a subjective artistic standpoint?

Ill bite......Artistically I think Spiderman looks better....with or without RT.
I really like Insomniacs rendering style.

Controls biggest weakness IMO is the skin shaders and some of the materials arent what I would considering top notch, but again thats subjective.

Objectively Control is leading the way in RT usage and there is no way to NOT be impressed by scenes when you break everything apart and you notice everything is correctly lit/shadowed/reflected.
Marveling at yourself in a glass pane only to notice an enemy behind you in the reflection firing a missile turning around and catching said missile is nothing short of awe inspiring.

I got so many moments of shit this is the future while playing Control.
Im sure I will feel the same as I play Miles Morales.

 

[jigglet]

I agree it looks great. This looks like a great launch game.

 

[MadchesterManc]

I would expect Control to have a better RT implementation than an open world game considering it's set inside a building. A literal corridor shooter.

 

[Hudo]

Gameplay is improved on all areas from the first apparently. Downside is it's obviously not as long, but more focused.



As an overall visual presentation, it looks better than any PC game with RT right now imo...maybe Metro comes close? But Watch Dogs legion looks crap in parts by comparison

I think the more focused approach might help. The open-world aspect of the base game felt a bit... directionless in a sense.

 

[RGB'D]

As a PC gamer, Control is NOT a more impressive game than MM. In fact i feel its graphics are overrated, and have said the same on here many times. If you are talking purely RT, then its not even a fair comparison as MM is mostly reflections, while Control is mostly lighting (while also having some reflections).

MM is by far the better looking game, with or without RT.

While this is entirely subjective and your opinion, maybe you should get a better rig? While MM is pretty and the RT is impressive; CONTROL is multiple levels above MM's offerings and is pushing so much more with the RT. Literally hurling a enemy through a glass wall and seeing explode into a million shards was one of the most awe-inspiring things I've ever seen in a videogame.

 

[regawdless]

I would expect Control to have a better RT implementation than an open world game considering it's set inside a building. A literal corridor shooter.

Yeah obviously. It's more advanced and can be scaled more, due to powerful GPUs of course. Nothing to see.

 

[RGB'D]

While this is entirely subjective and your opinion, maybe you should get a better rig? While MM is pretty and the RT is impressive; CONTROL is multiple levels above MM's offerings and is pushing so much more with the RT. Literally hurling a enemy through a glass wall and seeing explode into a million shards was one of the most awe-inspiring things I've ever seen in a videogame.

That said, MM is impressive in its own right and should pave the way for the future on consoles.

 

[alucard0712_rus]

1080p

Resolution and anti-aliasing way less important in path-traced games, as aliasing on those are much less visible than in rasterized games.
But there is new problem - Noise. It will be new "aliasing".

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

While this is entirely subjective and your opinion, maybe you should get a better rig? While MM is pretty and the RT is impressive; CONTROL is multiple levels above MM's offerings and is pushing so much more with the RT. Literally hurling a enemy through a glass wall and seeing explode into a million shards was one of the most awe-inspiring things I've ever seen in a videogame.

Yeah it has good destruction physics

Still not as good looking peope made it out to be

 

[Bo_Hazem]

^Note that the little rocks are debris particles generated by damaging the environment yet still correctly lit, reflected and shadowed.

^Even the glass that you shattered....all the little pieces still have raytraced reflections.



I think its undeniable that Miles Morales is the current benchmark for RT on console.....but it isnt the current Benchmark for RT in the Industry.

Control is a linear game, you should expect this level or more with ND games or GOW: Ragnarok if they focus more indoor/linear. The draw distance is extremely short. Looks great indeed, but let's not mix up a massive open world with a very linear game.

 

[Stuart360]

While this is entirely subjective and your opinion, maybe you should get a better rig? While MM is pretty and the RT is impressive; CONTROL is multiple levels above MM's offerings and is pushing so much more with the RT. Literally hurling a enemy through a glass wall and seeing explode into a million shards was one of the most awe-inspiring things I've ever seen in a videogame.

I'm not saying MM has better ray tracing, i'm saying MM is a better looking game, with or without ray tracing.
And my rig is fine thankyou. Its not a RTX card but its good enough for 1080p/60 max settings in games, and thats all i'm after until i get my 3080 in a few months.

 

[Knitted Knight]

So from a subjective artistic standpoint?

Ill bite......Artistically I think Spiderman looks better....with or without RT.
I really like Insomniacs rendering style.

Controls biggest weakness IMO is the skin shaders arent what I would considering top notch, but again thats subjective.

Objectively Control is leading the way in RT usage and there is no way to NOT be impressed by scenes when you break everything apart and you notice everything is correctly lit/shadowed/reflected.
Marveling at yourself in a glass pane only to notice an enemy behind you in the reflection firing a missile turning around and catching said missile is nothing short of awe inspiring.

I got so many moments of shit this is the future while playing Control.
Im sure I will feel the same as I play Miles Morales.

Lol... it's not from a subjective artistic standpoint alone. Even though on both areas it takes the cake. It's about how much is being rendered on the screen at any given time. The rendering pipeline in the engines of those games is nowhere close to being able to mimic what Insomniac's engine in Miles Morales is doing at any given time. You have massive draw distances, insane number of NPCs (pedestrian (varied models), objects such as moving cars (varied models), wild life, interactive NPCs of varying degrees - from normal pedestrians to enemy encounters, whether in stories or side-actives all throughout the city... to massive distinctive structures of varying sizes with reflecting surfaces top to bottom etc etc etc.... and on top of all of that, at the flip of a swing from the player.... you can swing in mere seconds through several street blocks of geometry and high res assets without hitting into massive pop in, without LOD being affected or any other hitch imaginable that degrades image quality - or performance for that matter. The list is endless to describe the dynamism that Insomniac's engine is rendering at any given time, in a lively world, at 4K, with RayTracing, at those swing speeds without a hitch. It's not comparable at all.

The only game comparable right now on PC is Watch Dogs, and it's simply, not up to par (which is why no one brings it up). So bringing up Control, or Metro etc... that's a disingenuous, losers game because the debate becomes not about what's the best but buzzword purity - which in that case, Minecraft would trump all of them combined (and we all know no one gives a crap about Minecraft).

 

[Terenty]

I have to say, Sony first-party games are always on a different level, consistently. Those detailed textures, GPU particles, industry-leading RT reflections, very high quality image quality, hair rendering, etc. are something else and truly a joy to behold!

Too bad they lack creativity to pair it with something worthwhile gameplay wise

 

[Chiggs]

I don’t think Miles Morales is all that incredible. It looks sharp and clean and polished, but it’s not a step-change or anything.

 

[VFXVeteran]

Industry leading*

Versus what exactly....isnt the only other title tested WatchDogs?
We have yet to see DMC5SE, GodFall(lol), Bright Memory and Stray get tested, or have those analysis slipped under the radar?

P.S I dont doubt its an amazing implementation, just seems weird to call it out so early when other RT titles are literally waiting in the wings for embargos to lift.



*On Console.

Yea, agree here. Especially since it disables the shader when reflecting. It's not accurate to the letter. All of these implementations are crude approximations and they cut too much details on the secondary bounce. The other thing is that the next-gen consoles aren't strong enough to implement blurred reflections. That requires a whole new set of GPU power that even the 3090 can't give.

 

[rodrigolfp]

The only game comparable right now on PC is Watch Dogs, and it's simply, not up to par (which is why no one brings it up). So bringing up Control, or Metro etc... that's a disingenuous, losers game because the debate becomes not about what's the best but buzzword purity - which in that case, Minecraft would trump all of them combined (and we all know no one gives a crap about Minecraft).

Topic is about Ray tracing. Ray traced reflections only <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< all the RT stuff in Control and Metro. Thats why the guy from Insomniac said "on console".

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

Too bad they lack creativity to pair it with something worthwhile gameplay wise

You just lack taste son

 

[Kikorin]

Nothing to be surprised about, Sony fp will lead the industry as always if we talk about tech and graphics, at least until Rockstar will release it's next game (GTA VI hopefully).

 

[VFXVeteran]

Here, this is from the DF video, the original photo demonstrating subsurface scattering on his right ear:

400% zoom!!!

And these are still heavily compressed video stills!

SSS crude approximation. An accurate implementation doesn't use texture masks around thin areas in order to show light scattering. Take a look at Cyberpunk 2077 gameplay where you see the SSS scatter across the arm and hands. When I see SSS implemented like this I always cringe because it's completely crude way of doing it properly. It's the least expensive algorithm available today.

 

[assurdum]

SSS crude approximation. An accurate implementation doesn't use texture masks around thin areas in order to show light scattering. Take a look at Cyberpunk 2077 gameplay where you see the SSS scatter across the arm and hands. When I see SSS implemented like this I always cringe because it's completely crude way of doing it properly. It's the least expensive algorithm available today.

The hell is an SSS approximated. Never heard about it.

 

[MasterCornholio]

Nice meme

 

[VFXVeteran]

Yeah, sounds cool and all, but the problem is that Control doesn't impress in overall IQ. It looks okay-ish, even good with RT, but nothing compared to MM.

Maybe Cyberpunk can take the cake. We'll see.

While you may not prefer the overall look in Control (I don't either), you also can't take 1 implementation of RT on Spiderman and claim it better than all. That's just objectively false. Control's implementation is clearly doing way more with the hardware than MM. Control's Ultra settings won't even run on a PS5/XSX.

 

[VFXVeteran]

The hell is an SSS approximated. Never heard about it.

That means how do I approximate the realworld light scattering phenomena with hardware that can't do it the proper way. It's approximated instead of evaluated analytically. All of the SSS approximations in games are the lowest common denominator because SSS is so expensive. It is the most expensive material of all the PBR shaders.

 

[assurdum]

While you may not prefer the overall look in Control (I don't either), you also can't take 1 implementation of RT on Spiderman and claim it better than all. That's just objectively false. Control's implementation is clearly doing way more with the hardware than MM. Control's Ultra settings won't even run on a PS5/XSX.

Of course you can. If you consider only the part raytraced.

 

[ReBurn]

IQ?....Image Quality?

Do you mean art style/art direction....which is fair. Not every technically amazing game is universally considered beautiful, and Controls skin shader isnt the best ive seen.
I always thought Days Gone was technically amazing but looked generic as fuck....Fortnite RT technically amazing fuck that artstyle to hell.
So if its an artstyle critique thats impossible for me to change.....and I mostly agree I think Spiderman from an Artistic standpoint is a better looking game......from a technical perspective...Control is another league.



Yup Control.

Those gifs are choppy. Is it like watching a slideshow when you play it or is it just how the gifs were encoded?

 

[Knitted Knight]

While you may not prefer the overall look in Control (I don't either), you also can't take 1 implementation of RT on Spiderman and claim it better than all. That's just objectively false. Control's implementation is clearly doing way more with the hardware than MM. Control's Ultra settings won't even run on a PS5/XSX.

Lol that game easily would (just depends on how much time they're willing to put in optimize for it - they're not very good at that). They just need to visit Naughty Dog more often. They clearly improved after a few visits to Naughty Dog....... one can only imagine what a full month stay with ND Ice team could do for their output.

 

[VFXVeteran]

Of course you can. If you consider only the part raytraced.

If you consider only the part ray-traced, you are stuck with mirror reflections. 99% of the world's materials are NOT mirror like. Control at least blurs the reflections on it's materials giving it a better approximation to realworld materials.

 

[assurdum]

That means how do I approximate the realworld light scattering phenomena with hardware that can't do it the proper way. It's approximated instead of evaluated analytically. All of the SSS approximations in games are the lowest common denominator because SSS is so expensive. It is the most expensive material of all the PBR shaders.

I'm not entirely sure based on what you say SSS is more approximate and lower to the standard on the last Spiderman. John Linneman said the exact opposite and it tested the game .

 

[VFXVeteran]

Lol that game easily would. They just need to visit Naughty Dog more often. They clearly improved with a few visits at Naughty Dog....... one can only imagine what a full month stay with ND Ice team could do for their output.

ND isn't going to add more memory bandwidth to the PS5. Sorry.. you can't squeeze blood from a turnip.

 

[geordiemp]

If you consider only the part ray-traced, you are stuck with mirror reflections. 99% of the world's materials are NOT mirror like. Control at least blurs the reflections on it's materials giving it a better approximation to realworld materials.

So does spiderman, the glass adds an effect for non perfect reflection.

Just for humour, Go look at your posts a year ago, before spiderman, and now your defending control on PC that has dedicated RT hardware vs a console game.

How times have changed

 

[VFXVeteran]

I'm not entirely sure based on what you say SSS is more approximate and lower to the standard on the last Spiderman. John Linneman said the exact opposite and it tested the game .

John hasn't implemented the technique before in code. You'll have to read up on it and perhaps watch some graphics programming classes on the various papers for SSS.

 

[assurdum]

If you consider only the part ray-traced, you are stuck with mirror reflections. 99% of the world's materials are NOT mirror like. Control at least blurs the reflections on it's materials giving it a better approximation to realworld materials.

Of course I consider only the part raytraced there isn't anything else to compare. If it's more effective we can say the raytracing reflections used by Nsomniac is better compared to Control (for example).

 

[Bo_Hazem]

SSS crude approximation. An accurate implementation doesn't use texture masks around thin areas in order to show light scattering. Take a look at Cyberpunk 2077 gameplay where you see the SSS scatter across the arm and hands. When I see SSS implemented like this I always cringe because it's completely crude way of doing it properly. It's the least expensive algorithm available today.

Yeah CP2077 models look more like wax than skin:

I look at that RTX 30 series screenshot and I CRINGE! Extremely low res.

Do you even have eyes?

 

[VFXVeteran]

Of course I consider only the part raytraced there isn't anything else to compare. If it's more effective we can say the raytracing reflections used by Nsomniac is better compared to Control (for example).

But it's not more effective. It removes the shader evaluations from the main shader of spiderman. And there is lack of blurred reflections on objects that aren't completely mirror-like.

Yeah CP2077 models look more like wax than skin:

I look at that RTX 30 series screenshot and I CRINGE!

Do you even have eyes?

I'm not talking about that Bo. Go grab a screenshot of the in-game characters arm. I'm not talking about the NPCs.

 

[Knitted Knight]

ND isn't going to add more memory bandwidth to the PS5. Sorry.. you can't squeeze blood from a turnip.

It's about doing more with less. Not less with more. Which is why there is nothing out there to rival Spider-Man Miles Morales on PC.

The "saviors" in CDPR postponed the party (for the very few that can even enjoy such fidelity - which is an irrelevant statistic).

 

[rodrigolfp]

Guys PC warrior is here! Once again he decends from his lair to declare we are wrong! Another beautiful PlayStation game? No retards, it can only look good if it is running on a Windows PC!

Fuck outta here ya sad troll. Spider-Miles is straight fyyyyyyyyyaaaaahh.

Its running on AMD pc tech, so why should console warriors be proud?

 

[VFXVeteran]

It's about doing more with less. Not less with more. Which is why there is nothing out there to rival Spider-Man Miles Morales on PC.

That's your opinion. And ND hasn't shown shit yet and you already putting them on top. Bias much?

 

[Life]

Gotta say I'm pretty impressed with those shots above. The game moves so fast though - can't appreciate those visuals in their entirety.