• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Insomniac: Our ray-tracing is excellent and industry leading right now on console

assurdum

Banned
John hasn't implemented the technique before in code. You'll have to read up on it and perhaps watch some graphics programming classes on the various papers for SSS.
And here we go. So you don't own the game but because you are a developer, you know it's coded with a lower precision tech just from a first glance of a capture. I know many talented developers get wrong about their eye catch impression too many time, so forgive me if I take your impressions with a big grain of salt.
 
Last edited:
Yeah CP2077 models look more like wax than skin:

cyberpunk-2077-nvidia-geforce-e3-2019-rtx-on-4k-in-game-screenshot-004.png


I look at that RTX 30 series screenshot and I CRINGE! Extremely low res.

MilesMorales_PS5_MilesGanke_Legal.png


Do you even have eyes?
e70.gif


:messenger_squinting_tongue:
 

VFXVeteran

Banned
As a PC gamer, Control is NOT a more impressive game than MM. In fact i feel its graphics are overrated, and have said the same on here many times. If you are talking purely RT, then its not even a fair comparison as MM is mostly reflections, while Control is mostly lighting (while also having some reflections).

MM is by far the better looking game, with or without RT.

I can concur with this Stuart but I think you aren't attacking the bias. If you remove RT from Spiderman MM and even incorporate the regular SPiderman PS4 game, they would both look better than Control overall. Control has a lot of shortcomings with regards to art direction, details and overall presentation.

--- BUT ---

You can't take that information and attach RT reflections on it and claim that MM is the best implementation of RT of any game ever released. That's complete and utter BS. Which is what's being said here.
 

assurdum

Banned
But it's not more effective. It removes the shader evaluations from the main shader of spiderman. And there is lack of blurred reflections on objects that aren't completely mirror-like.



I'm not talking about that Bo. Go grab a screenshot of the in-game characters arm. I'm not talking about the NPCs.
Can you prove Controls hasn't the same issue or other limits too?
 
Last edited:

VFXVeteran

Banned
And here we go. So you don't own the game but because you are a developer, you know it's coded with a lower precision tech just from a first glance of a capture. I know many talented developers get wrong about their eye catch impression too many time, so forgive me if I take your impressions with a big grain of salt.

All you have to do is look at every single videogame that boasts SSS and the results are similar. You are bragging about the quality of SSS on a screenshot showing a guys ear. Do you know how many games do the same thing?
 

assurdum

Banned
All you have to do is look at every single videogame that boasts SSS and the results are similar. You are bragging about the quality of SSS on a screenshot showing a guys ear. Do you know how many games do the same thing?
And? What's exactly the point? I think extrapolate SSS quality just from a capture by another person could be deceiving.
 
Last edited:

Stuart360

Member
I can concur with this Stuart but I think you aren't attacking the bias. If you remove RT from Spiderman MM and even incorporate the regular SPiderman PS4 game, they would both look better than Control overall. Control has a lot of shortcomings with regards to art direction, details and overall presentation.

--- BUT ---

You can't take that information and attach RT reflections on it and claim that MM is the best implementation of RT of any game ever released. That's complete and utter BS. Which is what's being said here.
Like i said VFX, i'm not saying MM has better ray tracing, i'm saying MM is the better looking game, with or without ray tracing.
I'm sure the RT in Control, on a high end rig, is more impressive than MM, but imo MM is still a way nicer looking game overall.
 
That's your opinion. And ND hasn't shown shit yet and you already putting them on top. Bias much?

They released a swang song on the PS4 that rivals PC games, and trumps PC games in some aspects while running on a 1.84 tflops machine instead of 20/30 tflops machine... or whatever Nvidia is touting these days to milk their whales...

You give ND 10 tflops as the baseline with that I/O.... Jesus almighty have mercy... for the salt will be plentiful, and the rivers will overflow...

But as we wait... Guerrila, and SSM will soon be showering the masses. I'm going to enjoy seeing PCMR resurrect DICE from the grave to fight the much needed war that CDPR will not be able to win once those big hitters land.
 
Last edited:

VFXVeteran

Banned
They released a swang song on the PS4 that rivals PC games, and trumps PC games in some aspects while running on a 1.84 tflops machine instead of 20/30 tflops machine... or whatever Nvidia is touting these days to milk their whales...

You give ND 10 tflops as the baseline with that I/O.... Jesus almighty have mercy... for the salt will be plentiful, and the rivers will overflow..
.

But as we wait... Guerrila, and SSM will soon be showering the masses. I'm going to enjoy seeing PCMR resurrect DICE from the grave to fight the much needed war that CDPR will not be able to win once those big hitters land.

It has already been shown that running @4k will completely destroy any extra bandwidth needed to make fancy things.
 
Last edited:

Black_Stride

do not tempt fate do not contrain Wonder Woman's thighs do not do not
Lol... it's not from a subjective artistic standpoint alone. Even though on both areas it takes the cake. It's about how much is being rendered on the screen at any given time. The rendering pipeline in the engines of those games is nowhere close to being able to mimic what Insomniac's engine in Miles Morales is doing at any given time. You have massive draw distances, insane number of NPCs (pedestrian (varied models), objects such as moving cars (varied models), wild life, interactive NPCs of varying degrees - from normal pedestrians to enemy encounters, whether in stories or side-actives all throughout the city... to massive distinctive structures of varying sizes with reflecting surfaces top to bottom etc etc etc.... and on top of all of that, at the flip of a swing from the player.... you can swing in mere seconds through several street blocks of geometry and high res assets without hitting into massive pop in, without LOD being affected or any other hitch imaginable that degrades image quality - or performance for that matter. The list is endless to describe the dynamism that Insomniac's engine is rendering at any given time, in a lively world, at 4K, with RayTracing, at those swing speeds without a hitch. It's not comparable at all.

The only game comparable right now on PC is Watch Dogs, and it's simply, not up to par (which is why no one brings it up). So bringing up Control, or Metro etc... that's a disingenuous, losers game because the debate becomes not about what's the best but buzzword purity - which in that case, Minecraft would trump all of them combined (and we all know no one gives a crap about Minecraft).

Your post has a lot of conjecture regarding the Northlight engine.
We have no evidence Northlight could or couldnt manage a whole city if it needed to.
If anything id be inclined to believe it totally could because the entire world of Control sans some side mission bosses like the former are streamed in much like MM streams in areas it needs without hitching or loading.....but thats not really the point because we cant say with any certainty Northlight would or wouldnt hitch without literally a like for like comparison....which we cant do.

All we are doing right now is comparing Raytracing use/quality......and regardless of artstyle Controls Raytracing is beyond Miles Morales.....MM is only doing lower LOD Reflections and its not infinite distance ray firing which we wouldnt be able to compare anyway because MM has generally longer draw distances.

The amount of carnage in a scene in Control could easy rival MM and remember everything in Control is not only reflected, shadowed and has I.Diffuse lighting applied, most of the environments are heavily destructible and that generated debris isnt ignored by RT.

So objectively Controls Raytracing implementation is more impressive than Miles Morales.....subjectively the artstyle/art direction is up to whoever is judging.

This will be my last post on the subject really because we are derailing the thread away from the point.

The Community Manager at Insomniac believes their RT solution is an Industry Leader on console....and I fully agree with him at this time..
An Industry Leader outright.......absolutely not.
If you want to test him tweet him and ask him....or anyone in the industry actually if they think Miles Morales is the Industry Leader outright....no developer/graphic artist/graphic programmer will say yes.
But as I said.
Dont want to derail the thread more than it already has been derailed.

Miles Morales is the Industry Leader of Raytracing on Console.

control-how-to-start-header.jpg
 

Stuart360

Member
They released a swang song on the PS4 that rivals PC games, and trumps PC games in some aspects while running on a 1.84 tflops machine instead of 20/30 tflops machine... or whatever Nvidia is touting these days to milk their whales...

You give ND 10 tflops as the baseline with that I/O.... Jesus almighty have mercy... for the salt will be plentiful, and the rivers will overflow...

But as we wait... Guerrila, and SSM will soon be showering the masses. I'm going to enjoy seeing PCMR resurrect DICE from the grave to fight the much needed war that CDPR will not be able to win once those big hitters land.
There probably wont be much salt, or not in the direction you feel, as even Cerny said you need 8tf just to run PS4 games at 4k. Why do you think so many 'next gen' games just look like current gen games?, or actually do have a current gen version also releasing.
No doubt ND will produce some fantastic stuff on PS5, but the jump next gen from current gen will probably be the smallest yet IMO.
 
Last edited:

The Fartist

Gold Member
ND doesn't beat out every other game dev in the industry every single time they release something... Nor are they guaranteed to do so from here till eternity. I have friends that have left ND and they don't even think that.
I never said they beat out every dev and I don't think they do either. You're the one who said that he shouldn't put ND on such a high horse because they haven't shown anything on PS5, yet. I'm saying people have every right to put them on such a high horse if one feels it's appropriate since they have well over two decades of generation defining games. It's a valid opinion, if you disagree then you're the one who's biased. You don't have to like ND games, (I don't like their Jak series), to respect them and the wizardry they pull off.

Your "vetted" title makes GAF look bad.
 
Last edited:
control-ray-traced-debris-001-on-all-rt-on.jpg

^Note that the little rocks are debris particles generated by damaging the environment yet still correctly lit, reflected and shadowed.

control-ray-traced-transparent-reflections-001-on-all-rt-on.jpg

^Even the glass that you shattered....all the little pieces still have raytraced reflections.



I think its undeniable that Miles Morales is the current benchmark for RT on console.....but it isnt the current Benchmark for RT in the Industry.

I don't disagree with you, that's why I said 'overrall visual presentation'. RT aside, WD looks very current gen. MM marries great RT with amazing general visuals.
 

Bo_Hazem

Banned
Another batch of screenshots I've made from youtube videos that are "MASSIVELY" compressed compared to direct feed footage, and yet they look better than anything we've seen on other platforms. Spiderman MM uses film grain and lens distortion to the edges to add that organic, film-like look:

vlcsnap-2020-11-08-14h09m40s158.png


vlcsnap-2020-11-08-14h11m09s053.png


vlcsnap-2020-11-08-14h11m40s887.png


vlcsnap-2020-11-08-14h11m57s658.png


vlcsnap-2020-11-08-14h12m14s143.png


vlcsnap-2020-11-08-14h12m35s101.png


PS4 models are still unmatched on any platform to date, and while other lesser studios trying to catch up with PS Studios, the bar has yet been raised again! At this point, PS Studios are having internal competition.

vlcsnap-2020-11-08-14h15m12s477.png


vlcsnap-2020-11-08-14h46m14s827.png


vlcsnap-2020-11-08-17h25m26s295.png


vlcsnap-2020-11-08-17h29m39s042.png


vlcsnap-2020-11-08-17h30m21s590.png


vlcsnap-2020-11-08-17h38m11s578.png


Subsurface Scattering

vlcsnap-2020-11-08-14h15m28s989.png


400% zoom and details are still insane!

vlcsnap-2020-11-08-14h16m17s857-400-percent-zoom.png


Hope you enjoyed them!

vlcsnap-2020-11-05-16h28m45s961.png


Put in mind that those are video stills, not true photos, so quality is being lost in the process with video compression, yet other games would dream to hit this level let alone direct feed!

 

assurdum

Banned
Hey you asked for a screenshot of an in game characters arm, and he gave you one!
I'm not discussing the competence of a person for his job BUT say to be infallible to spot graphic feature just for it, it's really opinable and I see many talented developers on YouTube said the same thing but spread absurdity in their analysis of a gameplay trailer although they were quite talented to code.
 
Last edited:

Amiga

Member
Thanks to @Falc67 , crazy screenshots, I think direct feed from PS5:

image_marvel_s_spider_man_miles_morales-42816-4526_0001.jpg


image_marvel_s_spider_man_miles_morales-42816-4526_0002.jpg


image_marvel_s_spider_man_miles_morales-42816-4526_0003.jpg


image_marvel_s_spider_man_miles_morales-42816-4526_0004.jpg


image_marvel_s_spider_man_miles_morales-42816-4526_0005.jpg


image_marvel_s_spider_man_miles_morales-42816-4526_0006.jpg


INSANE DETAILS!

image_marvel_s_spider_man_miles_morales-42816-4526_0007.jpg


image_marvel_s_spider_man_miles_morales-42816-4526_0008.jpg


image_marvel_s_spider_man_miles_morales-42816-4526_0009.jpg


image_marvel_s_spider_man_miles_morales-42816-4526_0010.jpg


image_marvel_s_spider_man_miles_morales-42816-4526_0011.jpg


image_marvel_s_spider_man_miles_morales-42816-4526_0012.jpg


Mindblowing!

image_marvel_s_spider_man_miles_morales-42816-4526_0013.jpg


image_marvel_s_spider_man_miles_morales-42816-4526_0014.jpg


image_marvel_s_spider_man_miles_morales-42816-4526_0015.jpg


image_marvel_s_spider_man_miles_morales-42816-4526_0016.jpg


image_marvel_s_spider_man_miles_morales-42816-4526_0017.jpg


image_marvel_s_spider_man_miles_morales-42816-4526_0018.jpg


image_marvel_s_spider_man_miles_morales-42816-4526_0019.jpg


image_marvel_s_spider_man_miles_morales-42816-4526_0020.jpg


image_marvel_s_spider_man_miles_morales-42816-4526_0021.jpg


image_marvel_s_spider_man_miles_morales-42816-4526_0022.jpg


image_marvel_s_spider_man_miles_morales-42816-4526_0023.jpg


image_marvel_s_spider_man_miles_morales-42816-4526_0024.jpg


image_marvel_s_spider_man_miles_morales-42816-4526_0025.jpg


I've never seen a game this sharp, clean, with mindblowing RT implementation and graphics!

Source:

Was planning to play 60fps mode, but higher fidelity and RT make a big difference, just have to experience it.
 

Self

Member
Do you mean art style/art direction....which is fair.

No, I mean Control's simple geometry, texture variance and quality, objects rendered at once etc. The physics/destruction engine and RT are better though. It still looks way inferior overall.

Hence my suggestion to wait for Cyberpunk which seems to have much more going on.
 

Captain Hero

The Spoiler Soldier
Is there going to be a mission where I must go to every window to see my reflection ? Or did we lose our minds to RT marketing shit ?

I prefer they put the power in everything except RT because it’s useless and take more power from these consoles, I’m not gonna play a game because a goddamn reflection!
 
Last edited:

Bo_Hazem

Banned
...and open-world. I really don't doubt seeing 4K/60+RT in smaller sandbox games.

I think that Spiderman MM + Ratchet and Clank: Rift Apart are using polygon/atom streaming using Atom View, explains the insane draw distance of the RT and the mindblowing detailed models and assets yet for that massive map of Manhattan it's still only 50GB due to no LOD system but polygon-budget/frame that Epic Games borrowed from Sony Atom View to make/license their own Nanite tech.

Watch at 00:45



They showed it in 2017, Sony bought them in 2019 and added them to Sony Innovation Studios and they are working heavily with Sony Pictures but their engine/plugin is compatible with games:

Atom View is a revolutionary point-cloud rendering, editing, and coloring software solution for volumetric virtual production. Atom View enables content creators to visualize, edit, color correct and manage volumetric data. Atom View can combine multiple volumetric data sets captured from different angles producing a single output for use in virtual film productions, video games, and interactive experiences with true photoreal cinematic quality. This advanced software engine is giving content creators incredible technology to tell stories in new and amazing ways.

 
Last edited:

The Fartist

Gold Member
Is there going to be a mission where I must go to every window to see my reflection ? Or did we lose our minds to RT marketing shit ?

I prefer they put the power in everything except RT because it’s useless and take more power from these consoles, I’m not gonna play a game because a goddamn reflection!
I bet you hate anti-aliasing and high poly counts too, huh?
 

rodrigolfp

Haptic Gamepads 4 Life
No, I mean Control's simple geometry, texture variance and quality, objects rendered at once etc. The physics/destruction engine and RT are better though. It still looks way inferior overall.

Hence my suggestion to wait for Cyberpunk which seems to have much more going on.
We don't need to wait for Cyberpunk to judge RT implementations. That's what the thread is about.
 

Mister Wolf

Member
No, I mean Control's simple geometry, texture variance and quality, objects rendered at once etc. The physics/destruction engine and RT are better though. It still looks way inferior overall.

Hence my suggestion to wait for Cyberpunk which seems to have much more going on.

This is more important than the higher quality character models I'm seeing in these next gen games. I don't know about other people but that would be my top priority when designing a game so I appreciate Remedy's approach.



In my 30+ years of playing games I cant think of any other time I've seen an interactable dynamic world on this level. Seen plenty of pretty static games though. They are a dime a dozen. All those quick time events and cinematic finishers peaked at GOW 3.
 
Last edited:

rodrigolfp

Haptic Gamepads 4 Life
This is more important than the higher quality character models I'm seeing in these next gen games. I don't know about other people but that would be my top priority when designing a game so I appreciate Remedy's approach.



In my 30+ years of playing games I cant think of any other time I've seen an interactable dynamic world on this level. Seen plenty of pretty static games though. They are a dime a dozen.

Puddles >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> /s

edit: oh, and puddles only and at pathetic 30fps. If a crossgen game is using RT only for reflections, this could tell something about RT rendering power of this AMD chips.
 
Last edited:

VFXVeteran

Banned
I never said they beat out every dev and I don't think they do either. You're the one who said that he shouldn't put ND on such a high horse because they haven't shown anything on PS5, yet. I'm saying people have every right to put them on such a high horse if one feels it's appropriate since they have well over two decades of generation defining games. It's a valid opinion, if you disagree then you're the one who's biased. You don't have to like ND games, (I don't like their Jak series), to respect them and the wizardry they pull off.

Your "vetted" title makes GAF look bad.

My title has nothing to do with GAF and who they represent. It's also a title that is just a fact of life whether you think it should or not. The criteria for having the 'vetted' is simply having worked in the industry and you or anyone can't take that away. Finally, we'd still be having the same conversation regardless of what my title says.
 

THEAP99

Banned
Thanks to @Falc67 , crazy screenshots, I think direct feed from PS5:

image_marvel_s_spider_man_miles_morales-42816-4526_0001.jpg


image_marvel_s_spider_man_miles_morales-42816-4526_0002.jpg


image_marvel_s_spider_man_miles_morales-42816-4526_0003.jpg


image_marvel_s_spider_man_miles_morales-42816-4526_0004.jpg


image_marvel_s_spider_man_miles_morales-42816-4526_0005.jpg


image_marvel_s_spider_man_miles_morales-42816-4526_0006.jpg


INSANE DETAILS!

image_marvel_s_spider_man_miles_morales-42816-4526_0007.jpg


image_marvel_s_spider_man_miles_morales-42816-4526_0008.jpg


image_marvel_s_spider_man_miles_morales-42816-4526_0009.jpg


image_marvel_s_spider_man_miles_morales-42816-4526_0010.jpg


image_marvel_s_spider_man_miles_morales-42816-4526_0011.jpg


image_marvel_s_spider_man_miles_morales-42816-4526_0012.jpg


Mindblowing!

image_marvel_s_spider_man_miles_morales-42816-4526_0013.jpg


image_marvel_s_spider_man_miles_morales-42816-4526_0014.jpg


image_marvel_s_spider_man_miles_morales-42816-4526_0015.jpg


image_marvel_s_spider_man_miles_morales-42816-4526_0016.jpg


image_marvel_s_spider_man_miles_morales-42816-4526_0017.jpg


image_marvel_s_spider_man_miles_morales-42816-4526_0018.jpg


image_marvel_s_spider_man_miles_morales-42816-4526_0019.jpg


image_marvel_s_spider_man_miles_morales-42816-4526_0020.jpg


image_marvel_s_spider_man_miles_morales-42816-4526_0021.jpg


image_marvel_s_spider_man_miles_morales-42816-4526_0022.jpg


image_marvel_s_spider_man_miles_morales-42816-4526_0023.jpg


image_marvel_s_spider_man_miles_morales-42816-4526_0024.jpg


image_marvel_s_spider_man_miles_morales-42816-4526_0025.jpg


I've never seen a game this sharp, clean, with mindblowing RT implementation and graphics!

Source:

And to think.. this is just a launch cross gen title..

Can't imagine what the full sequel will look like, wow;
 

The Fartist

Gold Member
My title has nothing to do with GAF and who they represent. It's also a title that is just a fact of life whether you think it should or not. The criteria for having the 'vetted' is simply having worked in the industry and you or anyone can't take that away. Finally, we'd still be having the same conversation regardless of what my title says.
Nice way of dodging my response, I wouldn't expect any less from you, though.

You think I'm jealous, that's cute.
 

VFXVeteran

Banned
Are you trolling? You asked for an NPC close up.

No go back and read, I said "in game main character".



Pause the vid at exactly 18:18 and look at that SSS on the arm. You can't put a mask texture on that. That entire arm is using the complex SSS algorithm and you can see the bleeding of the color of his skin as it goes into shadow. That's using a very good 3-lobe approximation iteration. Vastly superior to MM SSS.

Nice way of dodging my response, I wouldn't expect any less from you, though.

You think I'm jealous, that's cute.

I agree that ND has an incredible track record. But I don't put them on such a pedestal that I would assume their work would dwarf everyone else's work. It's like shitting on the other developers ability to come up with leading class shit. Sony exclusive companies don't pave the technology going forward. It is in fact, the 3rd party companies that do. Epic games has more advances than any 1st party Sony company right now. Why? Because they work with multiple platforms. Believe it or not, it's advantageous to have a flexible rendering engine that works with multiple hardware.
 
Last edited:

Bo_Hazem

Banned
Pause the vid at exactly 18:18 and look at that SSS on the arm. You can't put a mask texture on that. That entire arm is using the complex SSS algorithm and you can see the bleeding of the color of his skin as it goes into shadow. That's using a very good 3-lobe approximation iteration.

Sorry man but that's very poor looking goosebumps as if he's putting AC on full while being naked. Those textures are pretty massive and unrealistic and look as cheap and bad as fuck. Look at how more organic and natural it looks here, and small as well. This supposed-to-be-generic NPC has a much denser skin details yet not as good as Miles Morales:

vlcsnap-2020-09-18-23h51m02s839.png


Also how amateur is CDPR for putting those goosebumps in places that shouldn't be in the hand?
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom