MaestroMike
Gold Member
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UFC 285: Jones vs. Gane - T-Mobile Arena - March 4
- Thread starter MaestroMike
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INC
Member
Khabib over Jones all day.
Jones has had more entertaining fights, but khabib technical ability is just another lvl, from a control PoV, in my opinion
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Bragr
Banned
I have never seen anyone annihilate his division more than early Jones, not Anderson, not GSP, not Hughes, not Khabib, not BJ, not Fedor, not Gomi, I have never seen anything like it.
It was shocking to watch how he ran through everyone with barely any effort. He was miles ahead of anyone else.
INC
Member
No doubt, but 26-1-0, to 29-0.......still khahib on pure stats.
Mighty mouse also fucked up his division, you can argue his fighter pool, is pretty meh tho, at that weight
Either way can't wait to see Jon's in the ring again
SpiceRacz
Member
abstract alien
Member
mxbison
Member
Khabib had 4 title fights. Jones has had 15...
Not comparable.
Guys with resumes similar to Jones would be GSP, Silva, Aldo, etc.
GymWolf
Member
Also not comparable the fact that he popped several times and some of his fights were not dominant at all.
We can discuss all day on who deserve the title of goat i think.
mxbison
Member
Sure, stance on PEDs definitely matters a lot in the Jones discussion.
Khabib is a tough one for me, he could've probably easily smashed another 5-6 challengers but he chose to retire, so we'll never know.
Anyway, really looking forward to this great card.
Needlecrash
Member
I feel like Jon Jones might edge out a win, but Gane ain't gonna make it easy for sure.
GymWolf
Member
Can we consider the fact that khabib dominated pretty much everyone where jones looked absolutely beatable in 4 of his last 5 fights or the fact that even when he won by finish in some fights against machida or other people he was not really dominatong until he founded a finish.
Machida nailed him with some big hits and people underestimate how good jones chin is (same for khabib but he was never hitten clean more than like 10 times, jones got hit clean more than 10 times just against reyes)
HOW you win is a big factor here when we are splitting hairs trying to decide the goat.
Not sure how we can ignore the dude having an unfair advantage over his adversaries but ok.
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indigo-cyclops
Member
Jones cause I went to high school and drank with the fella
GymWolf
Member
The entire mma commnunity is having this argument since forever, so it definitely exist.
Also you know better than me that lower weightclass are more skilled than the higher ones where power is almost always the more important things, bantamweight\flyweight are more skilled than lightweights that are more skilled than welterweights that are more skilled than heavyweights, it always has been like this.
A 205 petr yan would obliterate a division, a 135 quinton jackson would be nowhere close top 15.
I think jones is the better fighter aswell, but not the current jones, maybe the one from 10 years ago.
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AeonGaidenRaiden
Member
Jones might of popped for substances but if you look at his resume, the guys he demolished were equally on the juice so I cant take that away from him. Way more defenses, way more killers he took care off. I mean the more recent ones...Cormier an olympic gold medalist, couldnt score ONE takedown against jones, wile Jones rag-dolled him 24/7. Khabib to me is on the same level as Ronda, came in the division that was inexperienced compared to him and he just mowed anyone he ran into...but only maybe last 5 fights he had stern competition, the other 20+ guys some randoms with a fight record of 3-5.
Bones the goat always.
Bones the goat always.
Irobot82
Member
Like 20+ of his record were literal nobodies. 6 of his 13 UFC fights were decisions.
MaestroMike
Gold Member
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MaestroMike
Gold Member
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EverydayBeast
thinks Halo Infinite is a new graphical benchmark
Jones is a ring general has the crowd factor where all of a sudden this Gane comes and it’s not his fault but going up against JON BONES JONES?
I got bets on Jones, speaking of bets, valentina shevchenko will be queen of the ring STILL.
I got bets on Jones, speaking of bets, valentina shevchenko will be queen of the ring STILL.
GymWolf
Member
You can just call me gym.My lord and savior
Chronicle
Member
SpiceRacz
Member
205 had a fuck ton of talent when Jon was coming up in the UFC and all the way to the mid 2010s. That was the deepest and most talented division in the UFC. LW today is not what it was 10 years ago. Historically, a lot of the best guys across different divisions were more spread out among different promotions. That's changed over time, but when the UFC bought Pride, they inherited the 205ers and that was easily the best division in the sport. They literally had all of the best guys at 205 under their promotion. You couldn't say that about any other division at the time. And that was the case for a good long while. To say that the guys Jon fought were less skilled is insane. He was literally beating guys in the deepest division of the sport.
Context matters. If you go back and look at the competition that Jon fought from let's say, 2011 to now, Jon has fought better competition, period. He's beat more former champions. It's easy to go back and dismiss some of Jon's more recent opponents based on how they performed after they lost to Jon. But that's silly, because in the run up to their title fights, they all looked a lot better before than afterwards. You could say the same for a lot of GSP's opponents, Anderson Silva's opponents, etc.
Some notable wins on Jon's resume:
Ryan Bader
Shogun Rua
Rampage
Machida
Gustafsson
Rashad Evans
Vitor Belfort
Chael Sonnen
Glover Teixeira
Daniel Cormier
Look at Khabib's resume. Who did he beat that's truly of note? Conor, Dustin, and Gaethje? I can't even remember if Conor was ranked at 155 at the time since he hadn't fought for 2 years. Khabib did beat RDA though, but that was before his title run. It's something though, I guess.
Fight Matrix has an algorithm for ranking fighters based on several different statistics. Khabib's not even in the top 10 all time.
https://www.fightmatrix.com/all-time-mma-rankings/all-time-absolute/
Without a doubt Jon Jones has a better resume than Khabib.
GymWolf
Member
Agree to disagree, it was the division with most star power so he had all the attention, hardly the most skilled one when i see some of those names...
Not to mention the fact that all those people were much smaller than jones, he had problems with actual good strikers who were big enough to stop his takedowns, hell even a journeyman like osp gave him some problems because he was similar to his size (but still smaller).
We can agree that jones had way more defences of his titles and that 10 years ago he was the goat on par with gsp, modern jones? Not so much.
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AeonGaidenRaiden
Member
A total of 14 of who's who on the roster. Not even one of those you can say for, are some random person that put on high fight gloves. Khabibs resume is laughable to this one minus of course the last 5 fights. GOAT.
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Bragr
Banned
Well, the higher weight classes play under different rules, and with more power and size, the fighting becomes different.
If anyone would fight like Peter Yan at 205, they would get annihilated, because you can't get away with the same things.
You can say that lightweight is deeper because it's closer to a human's natural weight, but you can also say that the power at 205 makes it harder to reign.
MaestroMike
Gold Member
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GymWolf
Member
Yeah but the fact that many fighter count so much on power means that just having a bit of footwork and techique can go long way.
Look gane and jones, they are unstoppable just for not being a sack of fat shit that is without breath after 3 min and with some out of the box striking.
In the lightweight and lower classes if you don't have a lot of talent and skill you go nowhere unless you have star power\dana white privilege.
You look the average heavy\lightheavy fight and your average light\feather\bantam\flyweight and the difference in skill is BIG.
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MaestroMike
Gold Member
Bragr
Banned
I think you are looking at this wrong, I agree the lighter weight classes are better and a lot deeper, but skill at 205 is not the same as skill at 155.
At 155, it's natural that they got more cardio with their small size, and they can grapple and slug it out more because they bring less power. Getting mounted at 205 is a death sentence, at 155 it's normal.
205 requires different things, it might look slower and sloppier, but that's because you have to fight differently and because the human body acts differently at different weights. It's like the female divisions, where they have no sense of striking and just stand there hitting each other. It's because the power threat is not very high so they can fight in different ways.
GymWolf
Member
False, you have a lot of good wrestler or bjj guys that end fights immediately via submission or ground and pound even in the lower classes, if anything they are even more deadly because they are just better at submission where light heavy and heavy usually just breath heavy when they are on top or they don't have enough cardio to sustain a lot of ground and pound, an old man like glover being the best bjj in the heavier classes tells you all you need to know about the skill level of the heavier classes, the dude wasn't even capable of submitting 2 pure strikers in the his past fights just because they were younger and stronger than him.
Same for the power or the strange comparison with women mma that are just fucking bad at fighting and that's why they suck asses, power is a factor because they naturally hit lighter than men but 95% of female fighters have just shitty striking technique.
You have flash ko in all the weight classes, some fighters make their fortune with their punching power, a lightweight is gonna have way less resistance to being koed than an heavyweight so you need way less force to score a ko, it's al proportioned dude, if only heavyweights were scoring ko the sport would be fucking boring.
I guess we agree to disagree on this one, in the end it's not important, i think you can switch who is the goat between jones, gsp, volk and khabib at any given moment.
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Bragr
Banned
It's true that the women are terrible, and the female divisions are 200 years behind the men's divisions, but a lot of the reasons for the poor striking is that they grow up training in an environment where power means little. It's normal for them to think and fight like that, it's the same in female boxing too. It's only some rare instances where women carry power, it's just not a concern, so learning to strike like a sack of potatoes is the norm.
Movements on the ground at higher weight classes are just a different beast, it takes more effort and leads to more devastating results, so you learn to keep your position. At 155, there are mounts during almost every card, at 205, it's super rare, especially these days.
Wrestling in general at higher weight classes is extremely tiring, 155 is tiny, and twisting in and out of positions is a different situation thing entirely. It's like cats fighting vs elephants fighting, you can't judge them the same, it's like a 100-pound dude vs a 200-pound dude, trying to climb a wall. The physics are not the same, so you can't judge them by the same rules.
Thirty7ven
Banned
He looks fat, and I’m surprised how media are just letting that slide.
There is a limit to how much extra muscle you can add when moving up a weight class. We are talking about an additional 43 pounds for someone who was already in exceptional shape.
Chronicle
Member
Pissed hot = cheater = no legacy
MaestroMike
Gold Member
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