Support NeoGAF

[The Hamburglar]

that is not due to 4k or raytracing. That is due to GT7 being just GTS port with GT7 skin + extra shiny effects. It is clear as day it was not build from ground up for next gen.

We know on other hand that Forza 8 will be, it will be shown in less than month and it will be launch title. I really want to see what next gen racing game will look like. I really feel with racing games we can really hit photorealism in gameplay this gen. Forza 7 in dubai at times feels like that due to baked static shadow with amazing baked GI and photogrametry:

you’re kidding yourself if you don’t think 4K and ray tracing isn’t that taxing which eats better graphics. The drop in FPS for 4K is a joke and for what? The image quality isn’t even that impressive espicslly on smaller monitors not to mention the loss In detail in motion. Throw in RT and where’s the head room for better graphics?

 

[Bryank75]

You didn't understand the point of my post did you... damn that shit went way over your head Oh I guess you're not the average consumer. Damn, do we have an engineer in our midst?!?!

He comes in spewing conspiratorial nonsense and claiming everything in the conference was fake..... then gets bombarded with facts.... ignores all the facts and continues spewing nonsense!

 

[ethomaz]

that is not due to 4k or raytracing. That is due to GT7 being just GTS port with GT7 skin + extra shiny effects. It is clear as day it was not build from ground up for next gen.

We know on other hand that Forza 8 will be, it will be shown in less than month and it will be launch title. I really want to see what next gen racing game will look like. I really feel with racing games we can really hit photorealism in gameplay this gen. Forza 7 in dubai at times feels like that due to baked static shadow with amazing baked GI and photogrametry:

I mean the GT7 track they showed on PS5 didn't even exists in GTS lol

 

[Dontero]

I mean the GT7 track they showed on PS5 didn't even exists in GTS lol

What i meant by that is technology and engine they are using with similar quality of assets.
GT5 also had PS2 tracks and cars despite being "next gen game". It is not like Deep Forest track here presented is amazing graphically, they are still using 2D trees ffs. Though it might be due to work in progress state.

 

[JeloSWE]

It is so awesome to have someone that knows what they are talking about here!
Do you think dropping resolution down to 1440p would allow devs hit 60fps with some good RT effects consistently? I know it is different for every game but... in a general 3rd person wide-linear game?

Simple answer is probably yes. The more complex answer is that it depends on multiple factors. GT7 is an excellent example of how you can achieve high image fidelity with lots of cutting edge techniques if you optimize and go about it smartly. There will be some quality sacrifices that we can live with. But some developers don't have time, knowledge, resources or even the desire to do it. They will settle with 30 fps and use the overhead to throw in a bit more but less optimized stuff on screen.

 

[Bryank75]

Simple answer is probably yes. The more complex answer is that it depends on multiple factors. GT7 is an excellent example of how you can achieve high image fidelity with lots of cutting edge techniques if you optimize and go about it smartly. There will be some quality sacrifices that we can live with. But some developers don't have time, knowledge, resources or even the desire to do it. They will settle with 30 fps and use the overhead to throw in a bit more but less optimized stuff on screen.

Hopefully the knowledge and approach spreads through at least PS Studios... I really would like as many 60fps games as possible.

 

[JeloSWE]

What i meant by that is technology and engine they are using with similar quality of assets.
GT5 also had PS2 tracks and cars despite being "next gen game". It is not like Deep Forest track here presented is amazing graphically, they are still using 2D trees ffs. Though it might be due to work in progress state.

I get where you are coming from. I'm one part super impressed by the demo from a technical standpoint regarding reflections, general lighting and camera exposure looked phenomenal in many shots with possible cockpit GI bounce lighting as well., also the GTS cars are already at a freaking high quality, they are good enough for me even this gen. But I agree the vegetation and trees really should use higher quality assets. I'm hoping that the they get updated and this is only temporary ones used in the demo. I think, when we see more stages from the game and updated UI that we will be impressed.

 

[wordslaughter]

you’re kidding yourself if you don’t think 4K and ray tracing isn’t that taxing which eats better graphics. The drop in FPS for 4K is a joke and for what? The image quality isn’t even that impressive espicslly on smaller monitors not to mention the loss In detail in motion. Throw in RT and where’s the head room for better graphics?

I agree that 4Kis not impressive on smaller monitors but if you're playing on a larger TV, say 65inch+, from my experience the clarity that 4K offers is noticeable and obvious. Especially if you sit very close to it.

I can tell if a game is running at 1440p or 4k on my TV immediately. Some of my friends can't though.

But I do agree with your frustration. On a console, you really are losing out on potentially better graphics by chasing the native 4K bulletpoint. On a PC you can just pay for whatever resolution/framerate you want.

 

[ethomaz]

I get where you are coming from. I'm one part super impressed by the demo from a technical standpoint regarding reflections, general lighting and camera exposure looked phenomenal in many shots with possible cockpit GI bounce lighting as well., also the GTS cars are already at a freaking high quality, they are good enough for me even this gen. But I agree the vegetation and trees really should use higher quality assets. I'm hoping that the they get updated and this is only temporary ones used in the demo. I think, when we see more stages from the game and updated UI that we will be impressed.

GTS assets were created for generation ahead Kaz said... they just use an lower detailed version of the asset in GTS.

Think like GT7 users a high quality LOD version of what is used in GTS.

 

[TYRiAX]

Hrm im feeling that I should stick with my 1080p screen for ps5 to maximise framerate potential...

 

[StreetsofBeige]

You clearly don't understand how RT works. You can't swap LOD in reflections because in RT reflections are that of original object. Not fake ones like cubemaps or projection where you basically show other object not reflection that looks like reflection of original object.

Nothing in GT7 trailer suggest that they are using RT. At least at the moment. They could add it later.

There is on other hand plenty of evidence that they are NOT using RT like this:

This is clearly using cubemaps + screen space reflection not raytracing.
Cockpit stuff also is could be easily done with screen space reflections or even baking.

Who knew rear lights and rims don't reflect when the rest of the car does. lol

Looks like Sony tried to fake in as many reflections as possible, but didn't think anyone would freeze frame it and point out half the reflections are trash or missing.

 

[ethomaz]

OMG Sony now is using fake RT.
Unbelievable what point you guys go.

Fake RDNA2.
Fake VRS.
Fake RT.

 

[vaibhavpisal]

now that you are saying this i remember that for example every sony dev use some different type of upscaling, some use the checkboard, insomniac has his own method, same for ND etc.
let's just hope that they come out with something as good as dlss2.0 for nextgen, and this is not green warrior or some other bullshit, i just saw with my eyes how good this shit looks on my pc with a 4k panel.

Is checkerboarding not good enough?

If you will put pc game on same settings as console, it will be hard to differentiate dlss from checkerboarding, even if seen side by side. Make sure settings are same. Without zooming in like 800%. At which point you will start to see artifacts from digital zooming and not looking at pixels one to one.

Dlss is ai based and is rather advanced concept. But checkerboarding is a clever use of resources. It uses data from previous frames which should give good results.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

OMG Sony now is using fake RT.
Unbelievable what point you guys go.

Fake RDNA2.
Fake VRS.
Fake RT.

If PS5's RT and lighting are so good why is the image people are talking about have terrible reflections?

The rims and rear lights don't even have a reflection at all.

 

[ethomaz]

If PS5's RT and lighting are so good why is the image people are talking about have terrible reflections?

The rims and rear lights don't even have a reflection at all.

Did you watch the video? The RT reflections are being done at 1/4 of the resolution... 1080p instead 4k... there is some tech like CB being used in RT reflections.

Edit - It is better to copy the article.

GT7 is on another level: environment reflections are properly mapped onto bodywork, all cars and indeed the player's car are also reflected, as are elements that are off-screen. It's a significant upgrade to the materials work on the player vehicle, while materials like glass seem to receive ray traced reflections too.
The game renders at what looks like native 4K resolution, so achieving these results at 60fps requires some innovative approaches to ray tracing. First of all, reflection resolution looks to be quarter resolution, cutting down the RT workload significantly. On top of that, a curious element is that moving edges in reflections exhibit sawtooth lines, much like checkerboarding. This makes me wonder whether interlacing or checkboarding the reflections is another push by Polyphony for higher performance - we saw a similar technique in Metro Exodus's real-time ray traced global illumination on PC.

BTW the imagine did not have terrible reflections.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Did you watch the video? The RT reflections are being done at 1/4 of the resolution... 1080p instead 4k... there is some tech like CB being used in RT reflections.

Edit - It is better to copy the article.



BTW the imagine did not have terrible reflections.

The rear light reflections are more like zero resolution. Not even there.

 

[Vroadstar]

OMG Sony now is using fake RT.
Unbelievable what point you guys go.

Fake RDNA2.
Fake VRS.
Fake RT.

You already know the answer when one person nitpicks the reflections of rims and rear lights, maybe it best of GT7 reflects both instead of the car or is it? LOL

 

[Vroadstar]

The rear light reflections are more like zero resolution. Not even there.

You are a known X fan so it's not like you are really concerned about the reflections

 

[StreetsofBeige]

You are a known X fan so it's not like you are really concerned about the reflections

What reflections? lol

 

[Vroadstar]

What reflections? lol

Exactly my point LOL

 

[Lethal01]

Shit looks good and you won't notice it in motion until someone points it out (like this video).

I'd say there's 2 things that will stick out to the layman, the screenspace reflections that are mixed in, the artifact of screenspace reflections are pretty extreme.
The aliasing on the reflections are also pretty bad sometimes. hopefully they can find a way to filter it.

 

[iHaunter]

If PS5's RT and lighting are so good why is the image people are talking about have terrible reflections?

The rims and rear lights don't even have a reflection at all.

Selective RT, it's literally in the video. We don't know how much will be optimized, but I'm assuming it's to save resources where they matter. Full RT is hard even for a $1300 GPU let alone a $500-$600 console. Your expectations are beyond unrealistic.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Selective RT, it's literally in the video. We don't know how much will be optimized, but I'm assuming it's to save resources where they matter. Full RT is hard even for a $1300 GPU let alone a $500-$600 console. Your expectations are beyond unrealistic.

If they are going to do quarter res reflections, then at least pick and choose the good parts to reflect. A car should be priority. People second. Things like the grey metal ceiling least important. If PD wants to skimp on resources, blur out the ceiling more. The ceiling and light fixtures have more reflection details than the cars.

 

[Lethal01]

You clearly don't understand how RT works. You can't swap LOD in reflections because in RT reflections are that of original object. Not fake ones like cubemaps or projection where you basically show other object not reflection that looks like reflection of original object.

Nothing in GT7 trailer suggest that they are using RT. At least at the moment. They could add it later.

There is on other hand plenty of evidence that they are NOT using RT like this:

This is clearly using cubemaps + screen space reflection not raytracing.
Cockpit stuff also is could be easily done with screen space reflections or even baking.

What? no..
I use these kinds of tricks all the time when I'm rendering scenes for work, you can make the reflections have no textures, no shading, etc. and tracing lower LODS is something I remember was specifically mentioned as a way to optimize ray tracing for realtime.

Edit: Nvm, I see it's been handled.

 

[rnlval]

Did the XSX gameplay showcase demonstrate Ray Tracing ? Do The Ascent have Ray Tracing ?

 

[Balducci30]

Imo raytracing, 4K and 60fps all are kinda unnecessary. As a casual gamer I legitimately can’t tell that much of a difference - I’d rather the effort be put elsewhere tbh

 

[sendit]

If they are going to do quarter res reflections, then at least pick and choose the good parts to reflect. A car should be priority. People second. Things like the grey metal ceiling least important. If PD wants to skimp on resources, blur out the ceiling more. The ceiling and light fixtures have more reflection details than the cars.

Agreed. Imagine seeing only the reflection of a car and not the person standing next to it against a reflective surface. Ever consider a career change in game design?

 

[Kumomeme]

My screenshots of Pragmat's RT :

Dragons Dogma 2 might look more amazing than we thought

 

[sinnergy]

Do you think the XSX could do something similar with extremely complex next gen games?

Minecraft is a pretty simple game compared to something like HellBlade 2 or the next Gears for example.

Developers explained that it can be used on complex models, their system is universal.

Path tracing is a bit more power hungry so we will see.

 

[llien]

Over rated feature

Indeed.
The only way for it to give "wow" effect is to apply it to a game which has no light/reflection/shadows whatsoever in the base version (Minecraft anyone?)

 

[raul3d]

Indeed.
The only way for it to give "wow" effect is to apply it to a game which has no light/reflection/shadows whatsoever in the base version (Minecraft anyone?)

Raytracing is defnitly not an overrated feature. In its current state, realtime raytracing is just an additional tool for developers that can be used in combination with the current rasterized approximations. Like every other tool, it has advantages and tradeoffs.

However, even in its current form, realtime raytracing defnitly enables effect that were borderline impossible before. For example reflections of off-screen objects on non-planar surfaces or accurate shadows for point and area light sources.

 

[GaviotaGrande]

that is not due to 4k or raytracing. That is due to GT7 being just GTS port with GT7 skin + extra shiny effects. It is clear as day it was not build from ground up for next gen.

We know on other hand that Forza 8 will be, it will be shown in less than month and it will be launch title. I really want to see what next gen racing game will look like. I really feel with racing games we can really hit photorealism in gameplay this gen. Forza 7 in dubai at times feels like that due to baked static shadow with amazing baked GI and photogrametry:

Forza 7 looks like a cartoon. Don't fool yourself.

If you want to see what next-gen of racing games should look like, check out my screenshots of Assetto Corsa (a 2014 game) with mods, here:

Next-gen Racing Graphics Face-off | (Next-gen means current-gen)

More Asseto Corsa with mods

www.neogaf.com

 

[Dontero]

Forza 7 looks like a cartoon. Don't fool yourself.

If you want to see what next-gen of racing games should like, check out my screenshots of Assetto Corsa (a 2014 game) with mods, here:

Yeah i saw those screenshots and even commented.
And no F7 doesn't look like a cartoon idk why do you think that. F7 is uneven because some tracks use photogrametry like dubai while other don't and coupled with less than stellar lighting condition it can look bad.

 

[Jon Neu]

GT7 was the most impressive show at the event.
Really nice.

Really?

I found it really underwhelming.

 

[93xfan]

Do you think the XSX could do something similar with extremely complex next gen games?

Minecraft is a pretty simple game compared to something like HellBlade 2 or the next Gears for example.

Definitely not. Even on top tier PCs, it’s only been attempted on Minecraft and games with simple geometry like Quake 2, due to how expensive it is.

 

[llien]

However, even in its current form, realtime raytracing defnitly enables effect that were borderline impossible before. For example reflections of off-screen objects on non-planar surfaces or accurate shadows for point and area light sources.

I chuckled at "accurate", that's a nice way to put "heavily denoised 'something' produced using a very limited number of rays".




Off-screen objects do not "exists" on scenes to improve performance. One could use rasterization hacks to emulate that too.

At the end of the day, we have GoW PS4, running on a puny 7870 and laughable CPU with amazing effects, no fancy tech applied.
Is it lots of effort to do? Yes it is.
Could one find bad artifacts, if one digs into it? Yes, one can, as with RT.
Can devs just "slap" cheap RT effect and it would work? No, they can't, it's fairly fragile and comes with its own list of gotchas.

Think about the very fact that people are arguing if the demoed effect was RT or raster.

So what do we have at the end of the day? A promising technology that could one day let game developers to develop cool effects with much smaller effort.

PS
Should I mention "realtime" next to "RT" to make it sound cooler? What about rasterization, should it be mentioned it is "realtime" too? Just asking.

 

[emmerrei]

I'm of the opinion that implementing RT in the newer console, in this stage it's just a waste of time and resource. It isn't ready yet, just drop it completly and move on. The console isn't even out, and we're already seeing the obvious limits of the current implementation, with subpar internal resolution and such.

 

[JeloSWE]

Yeah i saw those screenshots and even commented.
And no F7 doesn't look like a cartoon idk why do you think that. F7 is uneven because some tracks use photogrametry like dubai while other don't and coupled with less than stellar lighting condition it can look bad.

I never said that, you are misquoting me. It was GaviotaGrande who said it.

 

[Thirty7ven]

Really?

I found it really underwhelming.

Want to see how Forza and GT compare because I have to agree. Part of the problem is that GT Sport on a PS4 pro/hdr already looks absurdly good.

 

[Coulomb_Barrier]

If they are going to do quarter res reflections, then at least pick and choose the good parts to reflect. A car should be priority. People second. Things like the grey metal ceiling least important. If PD wants to skimp on resources, blur out the ceiling more. The ceiling and light fixtures have more reflection details than the cars.

Yeah I'm sure you know more than the experts at Polyphony Digitial. Give your trolling a rest.

 

[MightySquirrel]

They have had it since ps4 pro, temporal checkerboarding.



I am sure it will be used or the newer more temporal one by sony first party in 60 FPS versions (or performance modes)

Sony just showing their native 4k and RT solution, which also hurts a 2080ti allot....so commended.

Dont worry, pc master race will come back with 3080 and stuff, but for now consoles have power !

GAF really needs facepalm emoticon.

 

[MightySquirrel]

that is not as good as DLSS 2.0

It is not even comparable.

 

[GaviotaGrande]

Yeah i saw those screenshots and even commented.
And no F7 doesn't look like a cartoon idk why do you think that. F7 is uneven because some tracks use photogrametry like dubai while other don't and coupled with less than stellar lighting condition it can look bad.

Maybe calling it cartoony is over-exaggerating things a little bit. What I mean is that colors are too saturated and pop too much. Makes the picture look more like video-game fantasy than real life. I just took these 2 screenshots in F7 Dubai track. I think these shows what I mean:

I think that GT always got coloring much better than FM. Especially in GTS.

 

[Hunnybun]

yes... that's what people mean when saying it could easily run on PS4... remove RT reflections and you basically have GT Sport graphics. it's GT Sport at 4K with RT Reflections. that's not a big upgrade.
but I bet the final game will look much better when it releases in 3-4 years. because I absolutely think this early tech demo was just that, a tech demo and not even close to a final game.
all they did is up the resolution and throw some raytracing in there so they have something to show off. but in reality the game is most likely not even close to even an Alpha build.

Nah the environments look much better than GT Sport already. Not perhaps what I'm expecting from next gen, but still a decent improvement.

The overhead shot of Trial Mountain looked virtually photorealistic for example.

 

[Dontero]

I never said that, you are misquoting me. It was GaviotaGrande who said it.

Yeah it seems to be that i used some old comment as base with your quote. I really don't understand why modern web forum stuff is so fucking stone age. In Neogaf circa 2009-2010 you could easily quote people without whole chain behind quotes without fucking around deleting brackets and so on.

 

[ZywyPL]

As expected. Just as all other effects the devs can always use RT selectively instead of for full scene/every object, like those and those objects will have RT reflections, the others wont, those objects will have RT GI, the rest wont, and so on. The results so far are quite good I'd say. I cannot wait to see GT7 photomode, GT:S already produced outstanding results, adding RT to the mix can create some truly lifelike images.

 

[raul3d]

I don’t even know if I should reply to this, because I think that none of the arguments I present to you, will change your predetermined opinion. However, you are mixing shortcomings of specific raytracing implementations with the general technology, which makes no sense. None of the shortcomings you list are inherent to raytracing itself.

I chuckled at "accurate", that's a nice way to put "heavily denoised 'something' produced using a very limited number of rays".

The noisy pictures you show are from a talk about denoisers, of course these will show heavy noises in the raw result. This is the whole point of the talk. Yet, I would argue that even this denoised image has more accurate penumbras than your average rasterized approximation. Also your example is for a directional light source were a shadow mapped approximation works quite well – I was specifically talking about point and area light sources.

Off-screen objects do not "exists" on scenes to improve performance. One could use rasterization hacks to emulate that too.

I would really like to know how this hack would work, in order to get reflections of off-screen objects on a large moving object, like the cars in the GT trailer. Just a rough outline is enough.

Think about the very fact that people are arguing if the demoed effect was RT or raster.

Apparently, this is because the people that are arguing whether this was raytracing or not, do not know what raytracing actually is. I did not see a single technical person arguing about this. You could argue if the shown effects artistically look better or worse then they would have on PS4, but technically I don’t think it is up for debate.

So what do we have at the end of the day? A promising technology that could one day let game developers to develop cool effects with much smaller effort.

No, at the end of the day we have a promising technology that can already be used for effects that would not be possible otherwise. We would not be seeing these effects in the first wave of games, if this wasn’t the case.

PS
Should I mention "realtime" next to "RT" to make it sound cooler? What about rasterization, should it be mentioned it is "realtime" too? Just asking.

I rarely try to make technical discussions sound cool, I am more focused on the content.. but anyways: I used it to specifically distinguish the current form of raytracing we can use in realtime applications as opposed to offline rendering. Because in offline rendering raytracing is already the holy grail of rendering.

 

[Jon Neu]

Maybe calling it cartoony is over-exaggerating things a little bit. What I mean is that colors are too saturated and pop too much. Makes the picture look more like video-game fantasy than real life. I just took these 2 screenshots in F7 Dubai track. I think these shows what I mean:

I think that GT always got coloring much better than FM. Especially in GTS.

You know what has an extreme cartoony look with over saturated colors?

It’s an Horizon, but it’s Horizon Zero Dawn.

 

[Shmunter]

WORLD PREMIER! console exclusive. WORLD PREMIER!.....

 

[Shmunter]

I’m going to have to see the benefits first hand, because so far RT is quintessential diminishing returns from where I’m sitting. I appreciate RT is most definitely the future, but in a real-time setting where trade offs are constantly in tension, fakery can often be used for better overall effect, e.g like achieving 60fps. Eventually no doubt, but for now - I need more proof.