Hendrick's
If only my penis was as big as my GamerScore!
Wake me up when a game uses global ray tracing.
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PlayStation 5 Ray Tracing First Look: Gran Turismo 7, Ratchet & Clank, Pragamata + More! (DF)
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martino
Member
They are few the ones not serious and not concerned about DF emotions !Ok got to take a note to not forget to put the /s mark in my subtle sarcastic remarks, always forget to...
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silent head
Member
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Hendrick's
If only my penis was as big as my GamerScore!
I'd much rather see a 60fps mandate. That way the devs are forced to make that more the best it possibly can be. With options they will optimize for 30 to get those visuals and then just dial things back until they hit 60 and call it a day for performance mode. I guarantee the metrics show the vast majority of people okay in the graphical fidelity modes and not performance, so there is little incentive.
martino
Member
my descendant ---->
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None of your points say anything against GT using raytracing. You are tracing into your BVH and no one is forcing you to have your highest quality models in there.
GT is obviously using raytracing. I find it in the interiour even more impressive than the reflections in the car's body paint.
009EspadaSageJay
Member
Sony should of done something like this in there conference slow down the footage and highlight certain things kinda like what NVIDIA does at there events Either way a really good informative video.
alabtrosMyster
Banned
Raytracing is potentially better for any art style, anything that has shadows, indirect lights or reflections will benefit from it, if anything because they are easier to implement (as far as I know), but also because shadows and reflections have infinite resolution, so you can be very close to something and still have a clean image... Obviously if you really don't care at all, that won't phase you...
I personally care, but I care more for 60fps games (we would still get games that look better than last gen).
Dolomite
Member
The games listed all apply ray tracing in some fashion. Many combine actual full raytracing( very expensive on the GPU) with clever techniques like checkerboarding RT in Gran Turismo, or Global illumination for some of the non-ray traced reflections in Pragmata. Ratch and clank uses really good RT on Clank's model as his face literally reflects an image of his body in real time even though it's off camera. Then in other instances like destructible environments, There's no evidence of RT, infact reflections at all to speak of. All in all though it looks like Sony has gotten a great grasp on the art. It feels good knowing that you don't necessarily need Hardware RT cores to get results just as good.
shenmue mugen
Member
I hope so because the modelling of the hair of that girl from Pragmata needs some work....
It's so bad that it stood out...
ethomaz
Banned
Path tracing is regular ray-tracking.
Ray-tracking has two algorithms for render and one of them is Path tracing.
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itsjustJEFF
Member
Agreed. Until we can get FULL ray-tracing across the board, it's overrated fanboy war type shit. 80% of the stuff DF pointed out most people probably didn't notice. The only time you notice them is during breakdowns like the ones DF does. Once you're playing the game, you forget real quick. But, I do understand that, maybe for some, they feel a sense of pride or joy when playing their game and knowing that this version is slightly better. I personally never felt more joy or pride when I played 3rd party games on PS4 that looked slightly better. I also was never down or sad, when my version of a game on PS2 didn't look as good as it did on the OG Xbox.
I personally think that those breakdown videos that DF does and others do just turns some people into graphic snobs/elitist. They'll take the words and terms they use in those breakdown videos and regurgitate them. "It's Native 4k or nothing... my highly tuned eyes can tell"
That's not the intention of those videos, at least I hope not, but it really does turn some people into graphic snobs/elitist.
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VFXVeteran
Banned
I wasn't very impressed with the RT showing. Reflections is so basic and using SSR sortof already gives a reasonable approximation. The shortcuts they used aren't really ingenuity as they are just logically limiting ray-intersections and cutting down the ray casts. All typical for getting good mileage for performance increases.
I'd like to see GI, ray-traced shadows, and other uses of RT.
I'd like to see GI, ray-traced shadows, and other uses of RT.
Insane Metal
Member
I might be wrong here but I suspect XSX will be a lot stronger for RT than PS5.
Insane Metal
Member
BTW
JareBear: Remastered
found my avatar!!
JareBear: Remastered
found my avatar!!
ZehDon
Gold Member
Given the limited RT hardware the PS5 has to play with, I wasn't expecting more than low resolution reflections with numerous concessions, and some global illumination approximations such as real-time GI on characters in combination with pre-baked GI for geometry. Looks like I wasn't too far off the mark. We'll see further improvements as the generation goes on, no questions there, but I suspect it'll just be more intelligent concessions to work around the hardware limitations. I don't think the hardware can really muster much more than that given the low CU count.
SleepDoctor
Banned
No mention on Horizon?
Impressive that R & C is 4k/30fps with rt.
Impressive that R & C is 4k/30fps with rt.
CrustyBritches
Gold Member
It's hard to say how it will work until we see RDNA 2 benchies, but if I had to venture a guess it would be that the RT performance gap will exceed the rasterization gap between the 2 consoles. Can't wait to see what AMD has in store with Big Navi. It's probably out of my budget range, but I'm curious to see how they'll do with RT in comparison to Turing/Ampere. I've been under the assumption that Ampere will have better RT, so I'm planning on getting either 3070 or 3080.
Dontero
Banned
You clearly don't understand how RT works. You can't swap LOD in reflections because in RT reflections are that of original object. Not fake ones like cubemaps or projection where you basically show other object not reflection that looks like reflection of original object.
Nothing in GT7 trailer suggest that they are using RT. At least at the moment. They could add it later.
There is on other hand plenty of evidence that they are NOT using RT like this:
This is clearly using cubemaps + screen space reflection not raytracing.
Cockpit stuff also is could be easily done with screen space reflections or even baking.
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Thugnificient
Banned
Think they said it uses RT only for the player's car,You clearly don't understand how RT works. You can't swap LOD in reflections because in RT reflections are that of original object. Not fake ones like cubemaps or projection where you basically show other object not reflection that looks like reflection of original object.
Nothing in GT7 trailer suggest that they are using RT. At least at the moment. They could add it later.
There is on other hand plenty of evidence that they are NOT using RT like this:
This is clearly using cubemaps + screen space reflection not raytracing.
Cockpit stuff also is could be easily done with screen space reflections or even baking.
wordslaughter
Banned
I think the digital foundry guy is so excited about raytracing he's seeing raytracing in places where none exists.
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JeloSWE
Member
It's you who clearly don't understand how RT works, I'm sorry. I've been doing 3D rendering since the Amiga days, I've worked with AAA games and still work with game graphics daily so hopefully I know what I'm talking about.You clearly don't understand how RT works. You can't swap LOD in reflections because in RT reflections are that of original object. Not fake ones like cubemaps or projection where you basically show other object not reflection that looks like reflection of original object.
Nothing in GT7 trailer suggest that they are using RT. At least at the moment. They could add it later.
There is on other hand plenty of evidence that they are NOT using RT like this:
This is clearly using cubemaps + screen space reflection not raytracing.
Cockpit stuff also is could be easily done with screen space reflections or even baking.
What you are pointing out in the image, those discrepancies are a couple of things. First, the actual shader, the thing deciding reflectiveness, color, transparency etc of the object/mesh, is in real time raytracing often swapped for a simpler less calculation intensive version in the actual reflection, you could easily make a blue ball appear red in the reflection, a transparent surface opaque or disable it's reflectiveness entirely so you don't spawn yet another reflection ray. Secondly, the mesh/geometry, again we are striving for performance, so here we could use one with fewer polygons, and if we already have the LOD levels for that object in memory we could use it if need be. Finally, to speed things up even further, you can exclude objects selectively from the reflections entirely if you wish to do so.
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Bryank75
Banned
At the very start of the video Herman / Alex shows how an a GTX 2080ti... performance is hit by double digits by ray tracing..... it goes from nearly 60fps to mid to high 30's.
Goes to show how much the R&C demo was doing.... on top of loading through portals and level transformation. It truly is far more amazing than it looks.... it looks effortless which is the real magic.
Goes to show how much the R&C demo was doing.... on top of loading through portals and level transformation. It truly is far more amazing than it looks.... it looks effortless which is the real magic.
Dontero
Banned
So in other words you use RT to get worse effect than with cubemaps or even worse than simple screen space reflection. What was the point of RT again ? To produce correct reflections when used for reflections.
If you have actual experience in business then point me out where is RT here. Because clearly they are using cubemaps and screen space reflections in case of that mirror shot from two sides shot it could be just simple reprojection much like mirror is.
Moreover it is not like they are dancing at the edge here of technology when they use still 2D trees and LOD is clearly subpar for supposed next gen game
Official dev quote is that they are doing RT only for Clank reflections.
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ethomaz
Banned
More FUD.You clearly don't understand how RT works. You can't swap LOD in reflections because in RT reflections are that of original object. Not fake ones like cubemaps or projection where you basically show other object not reflection that looks like reflection of original object.
Nothing in GT7 trailer suggest that they are using RT. At least at the moment. They could add it later.
There is on other hand plenty of evidence that they are NOT using RT like this:
This is clearly using cubemaps + screen space reflection not raytracing.
Cockpit stuff also is could be easily done with screen space reflections or even baking.
GTS cleary uses ray-tracing for reflection and you say it doesn't lol
Dontero
Banned
Hey look raytracing in GT5. Do you see those reflections ? they clearly show ray tracing because they reflect stuff. XD
Bryank75
Banned
Official word from DF says that it is on most surfaces and objects and only select objects are not included.... afterall it is a work in progress.
Stuart360
Member
That screen shot perfectly explains what i have said about ray tracing plenty of times in the past (even though that screen isnt actually ray tracing), we are going to get tons of games with overly shiny surfaces. I mean why is the ground so shiny in that workshop?, are they working on glass?.You clearly don't understand how RT works. You can't swap LOD in reflections because in RT reflections are that of original object. Not fake ones like cubemaps or projection where you basically show other object not reflection that looks like reflection of original object.
Nothing in GT7 trailer suggest that they are using RT. At least at the moment. They could add it later.
There is on other hand plenty of evidence that they are NOT using RT like this:
This is clearly using cubemaps + screen space reflection not raytracing.
Cockpit stuff also is could be easily done with screen space reflections or even baking.
ethomaz
Banned
Are you trying to troll? Did you watch your video?
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DrScissorsMD
Banned
Cereal dynamics lmao
ethomaz
Banned
What Alex said about that.
DF: PlayStation 5 Ray Tracing First Look: Gran Turismo 7, Ratchet & Clank, Pragamata + More!
Well the reason it is too shiney is because the ray traced reflections in GT7 seem to Lack contact hardening, so technically it is too shiney. The reflections do not get more diffuse and starker along the reflection itself, which makes them overly bright and sharp for the whole scene. Edit: I...
www.resetera.com
You can make ray-tracking doesn't look shinny.
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Bryank75
Banned
High performance garages are exactly like that... they use a PU coating and vinyl decals and keep the floor immaculate..... that is how they work.
Makes it easier to see dropped screws / bolts or oil or water leaks etc.
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Stuart360
Member
That shot isnt ray tarcing though, the reflection would be a perfect match if it was. Also i thought you guys hated that Alex?What Alex said about that.
DF: PlayStation 5 Ray Tracing First Look: Gran Turismo 7, Ratchet & Clank, Pragamata + More!
Well the reason it is too shiney is because the ray traced reflections in GT7 seem to Lack contact hardening, so technically it is too shiney. The reflections do not get more diffuse and starker along the reflection itself, which makes them overly bright and sharp for the whole scene. Edit: I...
ethomaz
Banned
Hated? He is biased towards MS... I'm biased too if you not know... why should I hate him?
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Dontero
Banned
Yes, that was troll if you didn't notice it and since you are German and know no humor i will also explain purpose of this troll: Back in GT5 days there were plenty of people even high tier experts who claimed GT5 also had raytraced reflections because someone made some tech demo on PS3 with raytracing thus GT5 had raytracing or something.
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ethomaz
Banned
I think PD is trying to simulate that.
BTW high performance cars are heavy shinny too.
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Bryank75
Banned
Yes, that's it... it's paint layered below and then the driver vinyl stickers go on after it dries. You can see that clearly there.I think PD is trying to simulate that.
itsjustJEFF
Member
Didn't DF just confirm RT in that trailer? People throwing around terms like "cube map" "screen space reflections" like they know WTF that actually mean
Are we questioning DF now? I thought we believed them? Cause we for damn sure stopped believing Devs and Engineers. Like damn, who can we trust? Forum engineers? Tech Tubers? LOL
The Hamburglar
Banned
This is my issue with ray tracing and the 4K chasing. People actually thought it could be cross gen or it didn’t look that impressive graphically, why?
PlayStation 5: what to expect from next-gen console ray tracing
With nigh-on 30 titles revealed at last week's PlayStation 5 software showcase, there's certainly plenty of material fo…www.eurogamer.net
because next gen resources are going to waste on these fluff items. Remember when silent hill 2 and mgs2 were shown? I want to see that leap in graphics not the same shit in 4K.
itsjustJEFF
Member
Yea, that's shiny as hell. I wonder if it being that shiny servers some other purpose.
Dontero
Banned
Note to myself. If i want to present something as a fact i have to make video and post on youtube with some kind of production work put into it. Once you have a tie and video on youtube you are clearly right.
DF are great guys for casual crowd who don't follow technology.
Bryank75
Banned
I think the best thing to do is let the devs experiment with the new tech...
Let them see how they can best use their budget.... I think they will come back to things like the Unreal GI solution eventually and come up with clever ways to use the new tech sparingly but to maximum effect eventually..... while hitting optimal detail and fps.
We are just backseat drivers in here.
Let them see how they can best use their budget.... I think they will come back to things like the Unreal GI solution eventually and come up with clever ways to use the new tech sparingly but to maximum effect eventually..... while hitting optimal detail and fps.
We are just backseat drivers in here.
JeloSWE
Member
The biggest benefit with RT over SSR is that we can reflect stuff that are not visible in the frame. RT can shoot the ray from the camera, bounce of the floor with an ange and hit an object out side of the cameras direct view, such as the roof of the crowd stand that we can see being reflected in the floor in the orange area. Heck an even easier example is mirrors, now we can render the character from a it's POV in front of it without having to resort to fakery like putting an exact replica opposite and making the mirror transparent instead. That would be completely impossible with SSR.
You keep saying that a cube map is either used or could solve most of the reflections, that is incorrect. Cubemaps are often static so they don't update when things move in the scene. However, they can be updated, they can be set to constantly re-rendered from say the main cars center point but it's expensive and slow to do it every frame, what's even worse is that it's too general, if you try to use it for the floor, as soon as you look at the scene from another position than the cars the reflections no longer line up properly and start looking skewed or completely wrong.
They could be using SSR but there are so many objects like rims (pink) and object shading/lighting (turquoise) being different in the reflections, and that wouldn't be the case if they used SSR as it would use what we are seeing on screen.
So the strength of RT is that the reflections are accurate, they reflect things obscured from view where SSR just produces artifacts and things moving in the scene updates in the reflection properly.
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Bryank75
Banned
It is so awesome to have someone that knows what they are talking about here!The biggest benefit with RT over SSR is that we can reflect stuff that are not visible in the frame. RT can shoot the ray from the camera, bounce of the floor with an ange and hit an object out side of the cameras direct view, such as the roof of the crowd stand that we can see being reflected in the floor in the orange area. Heck an even easier example is mirrors, now we can render a character in front of it without having to resort to fakery like putting an exact replica opposite and making the mirror transparent instead. That would be completely impossible with SSR.
You keep saying that a cube map is either used or could solve most of the reflections, that is incorrect. Cubemaps are often static so they don't update when things move in the scene. However, they can be updated, they can be set to constantly re-rendered from say the main cars center point but it's expensive and slow to do it every frame, what's even worse is that it's too general, if you try to use it for the floor, as soon as you look at the scene from another position than the cars the reflections no longer line up properly and start looking skewed or completely wrong.
They could be using SSR but there are so many objects like rims (pink) and object shading/lighting (turquoise) being different in the reflections, and that wouldn't be the case if they used SSR as it would use what we are seeing on screen.
So the strength of RT is that the reflections are accurate, they reflect things obscured from view where SSR just produces artifacts and things moving in the scene updates in the reflection properly.
Do you think dropping resolution down to 1440p would allow devs hit 60fps with some good RT effects consistently? I know it is different for every game but... in a general 3rd person wide-linear game?
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Dontero
Banned
that is not due to 4k or raytracing. That is due to GT7 being just GTS port with GT7 skin + extra shiny effects. It is clear as day it was not build from ground up for next gen.
We know on other hand that Forza 8 will be, it will be shown in less than month and it will be launch title. I really want to see what next gen racing game will look like. I really feel with racing games we can really hit photorealism in gameplay this gen. Forza 7 in dubai at times feels like that due to baked static shadow with amazing baked GI and photogrametry:
Bryank75
Banned
Just because they used some of the same 4K models does not mean it is a port..... you can;t scan every car in the world, every two or three years..... especially when the car has not changed.that is not due to 4k or raytracing. That is due to GT7 being just GTS port with GT7 skin + extra shiny effects. It is clear as day it was not build from ground up for next gen.
We know on other hand that Forza 8 will be, it will be shown in less than month and it will be launch title. I really want to see what next gen racing game will look like. I really feel with racing games we can really hit photorealism in gameplay this gen. Forza 7 in dubai at times feels like that due to baked static shadow with amazing baked GI and photogrametry:
GT7 is not a multiplayer only game like GT:S... it has a campaign mode / career mode and new menus etc.
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itsjustJEFF
Member
You didn't understand the point of my post did you... damn that shit went way over your head
Oh I guess you're not the average consumer. Damn, do we have an engineer in our midst?!?!
Dontero
Banned
The biggest benefit with RT over SSR is that we can reflect stuff that are not visible in the frame. RT can shoot the ray from the camera, bounce of the floor with an ange and hit an object out side of the cameras direct view, such as the roof of the crowd stand that we can see being reflected in the floor in the orange area. Heck an even easier example is mirrors, now we can render the character from a it's POV in front of it without having to resort to fakery like putting an exact replica opposite and making the mirror transparent instead. That would be completely impossible with SSR.
You keep saying that a cube map is either used or could solve most of the reflections, that is incorrect. Cubemaps are often static so they don't update when things move in the scene. However, they can be updated, they can be set to constantly re-rendered from say the main cars center point but it's expensive and slow to do it every frame, what's even worse is that it's too general, if you try to use it for the floor, as soon as you look at the scene from another position than the cars the reflections no longer line up properly and start looking skewed or completely wrong.
They could be using SSR but there are so many objects like rims (pink) and object shading/lighting (turquoise) being different in the reflections, and that wouldn't be the case if they used SSR as it would use what we are seeing on screen.
So the strength of RT is that the reflections are accurate, they reflect things obscured from view where SSR just produces artifacts and things moving in the scene updates in the reflection properly.
Ok that left part seem like it does confirm they use some kind of RT. It does stretch to area that is after garage door. Didn't notice it before, thanks for input.
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