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[SlimySnake]

Behind on tools, behind on hardware, games delayed. I'm beginning to think those that purchased a XBOX S/X got a very rushed product. Thank goodness it plays old games well

its just PR. Its not behind on tools or hardware. they announced these consoles way back at E3 2018. They had plenty of time to get the tools ready, get the supply chain ready and of course get the games ready. It was clear from the July conference that their plan was never to launch with next gen games. All but one of the next gen games shown were CGi and the one that was shown was a prerendered teaser of a game that is early pre-production. so maybe 2-3 years away.

This is/was simply their plan. They were never going to outship sony. Especially not with two consoles. This was simply their plan and they executed it to the letter. Whether or not it was a good plan remains to be seen, but dont fall for PR.

 

[assurdum]

So Phil was late because he had to wait AMD to give to them the full access to RDNA2 but meanwhile he forgot to put infinity cache (a minor thing) on series X and preferred a more expensive RAM splitted to that. It sounds like very stupid to me with all respect to me.

 

[Jaguar Victory]

Well phil said he had an XSX not a dev kit in DECEMBER last year

Question is, was he lying then, or is he lying now ? Which is it ?

Chips wwere finalised 2H 2019 for both systems by the way.

You are smart enough to understand that engineering sample runs can be made prior to a tech being ready for mass production right?

 

[geordiemp]

You are smart enough to understand that engineering sample runs can be made prior to a tech being ready for mass production right?

And they will have run a 1000 or 2, so how does that relate to waiting for RDNA2 ?

I agree engineering samples and silicon finished in 2H 2019 means they did not start full production., which is unrelated

But the thread title says waiting for RDNA2 which is not correct

 

[Jaguar Victory]

And they will have run a 1000 or 2, so how does that relate to waiting for RDNA2 ?

I agree engineering samples and silicon finished in 2H 2019 means they did not start full production., which is unrelated

But the thread title says waiting for RDNA2 which is not correct

When did RDNA2 GPUs start the manufacturing process? Seems they came right in line with the XBOX. Seems we have plenty of RDNA2 GPU shortages like we have console shortages. The guy answered a question about console shipments and you guys turn it into console wars. He didn't say anything about the PS5. Specific AMD architecture can be a lot of things and does not disparage the PlayStation.

 

[NickFire]

When did RDNA2 GPUs start the manufacturing process? Seems they came right in line with the XBOX. Seems we have plenty of RDNA2 GPU shortages like we have console shortages. The guy answered a question about console shipments and you guys turn it into console wars. He didn't say anything about the PS5. Specific AMD architecture can be a lot of things and does not disparage the PlayStation.

On a purely surface level sure. But this is the top guy for MS's video game division. He knows how every word spoken and not spoken will be analyzed, dissected and talked about by analysts, media, and most importantly his customers and his competitor's customers. He easily could have made the excuse without giving cannon fodder to people to argue about.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

this.

I suspect sony is about to drop sales numbers soon and if the bloomberg articles were right, we are looking at 5 million sales already. MS was never going to match that.

Absolutely. And they've been signaling this over the past 6 months. They're currently trying to play to their only real strength at the moment which is the power narrative (which is of course only a narrative because the results in real games don't seem to reflect it).

It's disappointing but unsurprising for Spencer to be doubling down on this dumb waiting for "full RDNA2"-secret-sauce rhetoric, especially when the current crop of games are showing their console is getting beat by a console they are desperately trying to allege is architecturally inferior.

 

[Jaguar Victory]

On a purely surface level sure. But this is the top guy for MS's video game division. He knows how every word spoken and not spoken will be analyzed, dissected and talked about by analysts, media, and most importantly his customers and his competitor's customers. He easily could have made the excuse without giving cannon fodder to people to argue about.

"Hey Phil, why don't you have more consoles out"?

Do you think he should lie to make insecure console fanboys feel better or tell them the truth about why shipments are a little behind and why he couldn't serve all his potential customers?

 

[TLZ]

I don't know what to believe from this guy anymore.

 

[NickFire]

"Hey Phil, why don't you have more consoles out"?

Do you think he should lie to make insecure console fanboys feel better or tell them the truth about why shipments are a little behind and why he couldn't serve all his potential customers?

I only criticize him for playing it both ways. He criticizes you for posts like I am replying to btw.

Xbox head Phil Spencer says console tribalism is ‘one of the worst things about our industry’

I think he's referring to the small minority of radical overweight middle aged man boys that live in their basement and dirty their controllers with Cheetos on a daily basis.

www.neogaf.com

 

[farmerboy]

Both consoles feel a little "rushed", if you ask me.

But in my heart of hearts, this comes off as disingenuous. Without explaining the timelines involved or the tech they were waiting for, then it's not really saying much, is it?

If they were waiting, they would have been waiting last year, not this year. That means they could have told us about limited numbers a lot earlier. I really think we're hearing this now because they want to soften Sony's sales numbers.

 

[sinnergy]

Full RDNA2 good things come to those who wait, my body is ready Phil!

 

[R3claimer117]

Hopefully waiting will prove to be the correct decision when the RDNA2 features become a staple of next gen development.

It was the right decision I’m sure it will once those features start being implemented fully.

 

[BootsLoader]

https://www.theverge.com/2020/11/24...spencer-sony-ps5-hardware-decisions-interview





I guess this ends all of the talk. So what we were hearing about the dev kits were true. It's kind of funny that the hardware wasn't finalized until 4-5 months ago.

Imagine how badly optimized and built the system is. Even Microsoft is not familiar with their system.

 

[mckmas8808]

this.

I suspect sony is about to drop sales numbers soon and if the bloomberg articles were right, we are looking at 5 million sales already. MS was never going to match that.

What Bloomberg article had these fake stats? LOL!!!

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

From a certain point of view Anakin Skywalker was dead.

Well this Star Wars joke/reference goes right over my head but in regards what I said, the name 'Project Scarlett' is engraved on all retail XSX APUs.

 

[mckmas8808]

When did RDNA2 GPUs start the manufacturing process? Seems they came right in line with the XBOX. Seems we have plenty of RDNA2 GPU shortages like we have console shortages. The guy answered a question about console shipments and you guys turn it into console wars. He didn't say anything about the PS5. Specific AMD architecture can be a lot of things and does not disparage the PlayStation.

He literally compared their supply to Sony's in his quote. Did you not read it?

 

[jroc74]

this.

I suspect sony is about to drop sales numbers soon and if the bloomberg articles were right, we are looking at 5 million sales already. MS was never going to match that.

Yeah, I think PS5 sales are gonna be shocking.

 

[Jaguar Victory]

He literally compared their supply to Sony's in his quote. Did you not read it?

Relative supply, yes.

 

[ReBurn]

This is simply pre-emptive damage control in view of when the first hard sales numbers start to come out.

Yes, it's true XSX and XSS development was behind the PS5 schedule, but we also know from Bloomberg that Xbox simply ordered significantly less units from TSMC than Sony did...

....and understandably so when there's no reasonable business justification for them following up after the poor selling XB1 with a plan to try and sell as many consoles as Sony's PS5 at launch. As a brand they haven't really grown in any region in terms of hardware sales over the past 6 years. Quite the opposite. So a more modest launch was always expected and planned for from the outset. Hence MS's focus on services like GamePass rather than console sales.

Do you believe that Microsoft is going to release hard sales numbers on Xbox series consoles? You shouldn't believe that.

Microsoft isn't going to try to go toe to toe with Sony on hardware sales because they know they're not going to be able to. That's why they're trying to turn everyone's PC into an Xbox with DirectX 12 and Game Pass and increase their share of software revenue.

 

[blastprocessor]

Did someone say blast processing?

 

[nowhat]

Did someone say blast processing?

You did.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

When did RDNA2 GPUs start the manufacturing process? Seems they came right in line with the XBOX. Seems we have plenty of RDNA2 GPU shortages like we have console shortages. The guy answered a question about console shipments and you guys turn it into console wars. He didn't say anything about the PS5. Specific AMD architecture can be a lot of things and does not disparage the PlayStation.

Honestly your post sums up my frustration about this. The process of designing a chip takes years (see how many times Lisa Su has mentioned making 'big bets' 5 years before Zen/RDNA came to market) and Phil in the interview here is tapping into your and others poor knowledge of this process. Phil seems to be directly linking waiting for RDNA 2 features (which could be true) with the manufacturing process starting in late Summer this year.

For me these two things would have been at least 1 year apart in time and would not have affected each other IMO. They clearly didn't finish the chip design in late summer....

 

[mckmas8808]

Honestly your post sums up my frustration about this. The process of designing a chip takes years (see how many times Lisa Su has mentioned making 'big bets' 5 years before Zen/RDNA came to market) and Phil in the interview here is tapping into your and others poor knowledge of this process. Phil seems to be directly linking waiting for RDNA 2 features (which could be true) with the manufacturing process starting in late Summer this year.

For me these two things would have been at least 1 year apart in time and would not have affected each other IMO. They clearly didn't finish the chip design in late summer....

100% on point and why I'm starting to get upset with Phil. The memes about him are starting to become reality in my eyes now. I didn't see it before, but I'm seeing it now. There's always a "wait for........" reason with this guy. And the thing is this.........

He KNOWS BETTER! He totally understands the console creation process from front to back, so it's maddening that he's pushing this narrative for console warriors, video game podcasters, Youtubers, and media to carry next year. He.....Knows.....What.....He's......Doing.

 

[Allandor]

Honestly your post sums up my frustration about this. The process of designing a chip takes years (see how many times Lisa Su has mentioned making 'big bets' 5 years before Zen/RDNA came to market) and Phil in the interview here is tapping into your and others poor knowledge of this process. Phil seems to be directly linking waiting for RDNA 2 features (which could be true) with the manufacturing process starting in late Summer this year.

For me these two things would have been at least 1 year apart in time and would not have affected each other IMO. They clearly didn't finish the chip design in late summer....

This could also mean, that just one component (or more) of the chip wasn't working properly. Just like the rumors about problems with hardware decompression point to. E.g. the rumors say, that the decompression logic did not work until july (or around july this year) dev kits.

That he used a prototype of the xbox last year does not mean anything. This could be a pimped xbox one x or whatever in the case of the xbox series x. Who knows. This is more or less PC hardware there shouldn't be a problem to run games on it.

 

[TaylorSwiftFan]

It's not any sort of "secret sauce" they just waited for mesh shaders, sfs, vrs, silicon dedicated to ML to be added to the SOC, as they've stated before. It isn't some great mystery.

So why doesn’t MS come out and say what those features are and how they’ll benefit gamers?

 

[NoMoChokeSJ]

Not 20% better than the competition it isn't. And that’s the problem - which is why the forum continues to be a FUD battleground because there’s no clear winner.

Yeah but most of that is the forum more than the message of the company. I also think its awful hard to lay claim to anything until the generation really gets going.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

This could also mean, that just one component (or more) of the chip wasn't working properly. Just like the rumors about problems with hardware decompression point to. E.g. the rumors say, that the decompression logic did not work until july (or around july this year) dev kits.

That he used a prototype of the xbox last year does not mean anything. This could be a pimped xbox one x or whatever in the case of the xbox series x. Who knows. This is more or less PC hardware there shouldn't be a problem to run games on it.

My bet is what Phil had was real near-final APU-based hardware (not off the shelf PC components). Probably not final clocks and the software side was probably very barebones and buggy.

Remember Austin Evans, John Linneman and Richard Leadbetter all got hands-on with XSX (and shown XSS!) at the very beginning of March just two months later than Phil took his console home. The HW was in a very advanced state/chip finished and in dev kits even if the software side really wasn't. Even Ray Tracing was demoed on the GDK I think so I doubt it could be anything other than the real APU given AMD didn't have HW RT GPUs.

 

[Team Andromeda]

So why doesn't MS create consoles with a more clear pathway to it being finished on time? To me, this is clear damage control. Is it just impossible to applaud Sony for having many more consoles at launch without having excuses for MS?

The moment you sign off the Silicon as final to be manufactured is the moment you can't make any changes or improvements to the chipset

 

[Hendrick's]

I see that sly dog Phil pulled a fast one on you all and is really ruffling some feathers.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

I see that sly dog Phil pulled a fast one on you all and is really ruffling some feathers.

For his last few interviews I've been quietly like:

Like you say, sly dog!

ETA: I should add that I also think Jim Ryan in different ways is also a sly dog.

 

[Killer Sakoman]

https://www.theverge.com/2020/11/24...spencer-sony-ps5-hardware-decisions-interview





I guess this ends all of the talk. So what we were hearing about the dev kits were true. It's kind of funny that the hardware wasn't finalized until 4-5 months ago.

Cut the bullshit, they don't have shortage of units. It's definitely sold out in the US, but million others are collecting dust outside.
I don't even know why they decided to launch it in the middle east at the same time as US. Retailers here are begging people to buy XSX and XSS.

 

[Jaguar Victory]

Honestly your post sums up my frustration about this. The process of designing a chip takes years (see how many times Lisa Su has mentioned making 'big bets' 5 years before Zen/RDNA came to market) and Phil in the interview here is tapping into your and others poor knowledge of this process. Phil seems to be directly linking waiting for RDNA 2 features (which could be true) with the manufacturing process starting in late Summer this year.

For me these two things would have been at least 1 year apart in time and would not have affected each other IMO. They clearly didn't finish the chip design in late summer....

Design and production are two different things Milk. I know as much as you do so that sounded a little dismissive. I know about tapeouts and iteration and redesigns and silicone. We know if AMD was ready to ship spec earlier they wouldn't have waited to release their GPUs. Unless we're suggesting they didn't have the order capacity at GloFo and TSMC.

 

[Invalid GR]

So they waited for a GPU specific function that wasn't present 4-5 moths prior to launch but somehow got the green light then tested that it didn't brake any variables (thermals etc) and managed to keep up with production in order to ship before the competition but couldn't get their tools ready...

 

[geordiemp]

I see that sly dog Phil pulled a fast one on you all and is really ruffling some feathers.

Jim Ryan and Phil should go on a date, they are both suits that talk absolute bollocks

 

[Unknown?]

We've heard it all before, Phil...

 

[demigod]

Ahhh, lyin ass phil damage controlling cuz he knows the competition has more units and outsold them. I told you guys. The writing was on the wall during preorder stage when Gamestop had more than double the units of playstation vs xbox.

 

[Akuji]

Mr spencer is someone that I would never trust more then my own biased opinion about anything. Sure I may be wrong on a lot of thingsbut this man is just overhyping every e3 Xbox conference telling the same story about „games are coming“ for years ... and yet here we are.

I really hope he shuts the fuck up for atleast 2 years. Working hard on managing a thriving Xbox studio landscape that focuses on great game output and creating teams on par with Nintendo and Sony studios.

When the games are on the shelf to buy, then he can talk all he wants because he earned it.

 

[cebri.one]

IT'S THE SECOND GPU!!!

Nah, probably bullshit. Nobody believes they are waiting for an AMD development 5 months before launch, lol.

 

[Fitzchiv]

You are smart enough to understand that engineering sample runs can be made prior to a tech being ready for mass production right?

Of course he is. He's also snide enough to knowingly play ignorant of it.

 

[Riky]

So why doesn’t MS come out and say what those features are and how they’ll benefit gamers?

They did, issued a statement after the AMD RDNA2 reveal. They also showed VRS on Gears 5 with Digital Foundry along with other videos that have been posted before with Mesh Shaders etc.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

Design and production are two different things Milk. I know as much as you do so that sounded a little dismissive. I know about tapeouts and iteration and redesigns and silicone. We know if AMD was ready to ship spec earlier they wouldn't have waited to release their GPUs. Unless we're suggesting they didn't have the order capacity at GloFo and TSMC.

I'm not sure what else to say to you, Jaguar. If you understand the process chips go through and the timelines then you would understand why the below quote from Phil in the Verge article makes zero sense for multiple reasons.

We started manufacturing late summer,” reveals Spencer. “We were a little bit later than the competition, because we were waiting for some specific AMD technology in our chip. We were a little bit behind where they were, where Sony was, in terms of building units.

Bear in mind Microsoft launched before Sony albeit by only 2-7 days.

 

[kyoji]

peep game and the option select he used. His statement does two things, when the hardware numbers release for systems sold they can use waiting on the amd tech till the last minute as an excuse for not being close to sony numbers sold. #2 when the comparisons continue to rollout and the differences between the 2 systems are small and not big like they marketed they can also blame waiting on late tech in there box.

You already see it being used on these forums as a crutch (tools). laughable and shameful at the same time.

There are no excuses this gen, xbox had a clean slate.

 

[farmerboy]

So they waited for a GPU specific function that wasn't present 4-5 moths prior to launch but somehow got the green light then tested that it didn't brake any variables (thermals etc) and managed to keep up with production in order to ship before the competition but couldn't get their tools ready...

Exactly. If they were waiting, they were waiting very early this year or last. Was there ever any confirmation when they started manufacture? I think there was for PS5.

 

[NullZ3r0]

All Xbox Series launch games were developed on non-final hardware. So that puts all the pixel counting of launch games into better perspective.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

All Xbox Series launch games were developed on non-final hardware. So that puts all the pixel counting of launch games into better perspective.

In what ways was the hardware not final?

 

[NullZ3r0]

BS and FUD

From Jason Ronald and Andrew Goosen:

In our quest to put gamers and developers first we chose to wait for the most advanced technology from our partners at AMD before finalizing our architecture. Now, with the upcoming release of Xbox Series X|S and the new AMD Radeon RX 6000 Series GPUs, developers have a common set of next-generation tools and performance capabilities that will empower them to deliver transformative gaming experiences across both console and PC.

Source

They're full of shit too, I suppose?

 

[NullZ3r0]

In what ways was the hardware not final?

This is common sense and true for every console launch game. It was just exacerbated even more this gen by MS waiting until the absolute last minute this time. This is consistent with rumors about underpowered Scarlett dev kits and Sony tools being more advanced. So with launch games we're basically seeing non-final Xbox dev kit code vs PS5 final hardware.

Edit: By "non-final" I'm talking about incomplete feature set and APIs. I believe that DirectX12U just got released a few months ago.

 

[AgentP]

Meanwhile you can find them online, sitting for hours on some retailers.

 

[sendit]

“The worlds most theoretically powerful console in need of better tools” -Xbox PR