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In your honest opinion, who is the better gaming company leader? Phil Spencer or Jim Ryan?
- Thread starter Eddie-Griffin
- Start date
Henry Panic
Banned
Both brands peaked with PS3 and 360 and have been on decline since the last year of both of those.
I expect this gen to be bad unless all those MS acquisitions amount to something with their money
I expect this gen to be bad unless all those MS acquisitions amount to something with their money
ZehDon
Gold Member
Well, I think I hit a nerve. And yet, for all the words, you didn't actually post anything. Not a single example or fact to back up literally anything. You just wrote: "Ryan MUST be doing something SIGNIFICANT because he's the CEO! He ALONE has made PlayStation successful!".
As of today, right now, Jim Ryan's PlayStation's biggest change from his predecessors is its pricing structure. That's literally it. Everything else is just continuing along from the work left behind from House, Boyd, and Yoshida's excellent work at the start of the PS4 era. When the GaaS titles start landing, we'll see the fruits of Ryan's work. Until then, Jim Ryan hasn't really "done" much besides charge more for less.
On the other side, Xbox exists today because Phil Spencer worked to keep it alive. Literally - without Spencer, Microsoft was apparently pretty close to simply getting out of gaming until he convinced them to stay in the game. Stepping in and keeping the brand alive at its lowest point VS stepping in and raising the brand's prices at its highest point?
James Sawyer Ford
Member
Keeping the platform on life support seems like lip service to me to dramatize the state Xbox was in. Doubtful it was ever seriously considered
The fact remains that Phil hasn’t done much to engender excitement for the platform despite keeping it alive. The problems with managing studios are long lasting, unresolved, and seemingly with no end in sight.
Rocco Schiavone
Member
Both suck.
Techno_Inked
Member
You didn't hit anything besides your own wall of ignorance and fantasy land. If Phil wasnt there, Microsoft would just find a different poster boy to splash the money. It isn't much of a big difference who splashes the money as long as there's money.
Changing pricing structure takes analytical skills. Like you said, Playstation lost subscribers yet they are making more revenue in turn. That takes business insight. Which you don't have.
Also you only pointed out that 1 lil point about PSN tiers and even then failed logical business reasoning. Now think bout how you can even fill 1% of Jim Ryan's shoes when he's improved so many aspects of Playstation.
ZehDon
Gold Member
Well, Spencer and Nadella tell the same story. If you want to call it into question, that's fine - but there's nothing to support it given the absolutely disaster that was the Xbone.
As for generating excitement, Xbox is currently having its best generation ever, according to their PR statements. Game Pass is carrying the Xbox brand right now, and it's going so well, PlayStation have taken steps to emulate it. I'd say he's doing something, given that success.
Techno_Inked
Member
ZehDon
, indeed use your dumb emojis instead of good reasoning and business insight. No wonder you can't align your mind with Jim Ryan.Both Jim and Phil only want your money. Yet you really think Phil is your lord and savior of your poor gamer soul.
In the end both Jim and Phil are asshats. But out of the 2 Jim is definitely the more capable one.
HeisenbergFX4
Gold Member
Ybarra has said to me before Xbox almost died off so people can make of that what they want
Xbox is really having a great generation because gamepass is carrying it but Xbox needs to get the next year right and not delay the big titles in the pipeline
I will be honest I had always used my PS5 for its exclusives and literally everything else was on my Series X because FOR ME the hardware is simply superior when I take into account the Elite controller
Have to admit have been playing the new COD more on the PS5 of late because of finding more matches with cross play off.
nial
Gold Member
Thread should have ended here.
ChorizoPicozo
Member
Honestly.....we should wait until next year.
James Sawyer Ford
Member
That's the problem, what you are saying is a dramatized version of the story. Mattrick left after the Xbox One launch and the management team was disjointed. So, during the course of natural business discussions from Nadella (who isn't someone experienced in gaming), Phil won over his confidence. It does not sound like the division was ever in serious danger of being abandoned.
Those are PR statements, and it seems natural these days that platforms are selling better/faster sooner in their lifecycle. This isn't unique to Xbox.
Under the surface though, they've had to outright buy studios to the tune of $100B. That's a huge cash comittment for something seemingly in such great condition. So I am doubtful of the claims of success just like I'm doubtful of the claims of GamePass profitability and all the other creative accounting used to spin things in a more positive light. The truth is they still haven't delivered to their consumers the games they expected when they became Xbox fans in the OG or 360 era.
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Snake29
RSI Employee of the Year
Reading your post, you must hate good quality games.
ZehDon
Gold Member
Well, actually, it was Balmer who was running Microsoft when Mattrick left. Nadella didn't take over for nearly a year later. And even then, it took most of the Xbone generation for Spencer to convince Nadella to let Xbox operate as its own division, instead of being under the greater umbrella of other divisions within Microsoft. That happened around 2018, if memory serves. 2013 to 2018 is an eternity when you're stuck with the Xbone hardware, a decimated first party, and fans who literally abandoned the brand en masse. Spencer kept it going.
Well, publicly traded companies can't lie about little things like "profits". People go to jail. So, if you believe Microsoft is openly and actively committing fraud, you must have some serious fucking receipts to be dropping those kinds of accusations. Can I see them please?
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balls of snow
Member
Its Phil, he got all the western rpg's in one box to play. Now he just need to deliver the goods.
For Jimbo I dont approve of branching ALL the IPs to become tv and movies. You are already making excellent interactive summer blockbusters.
For Jimbo I dont approve of branching ALL the IPs to become tv and movies. You are already making excellent interactive summer blockbusters.
James Sawyer Ford
Member
This wasn't in a financial statement. It was some off the cuff comment. You can easily obfuscate reality by hiding costs when talking about profitability, even in financial statements. Companies aren't required to disclose every detail. Microsoft intentionally hides many, and brags about non-financial metrics to positively spin their position.
Kudos to Phil for keeping Xbox going, but just doing that isn't some amazing achievement. The brand has floundered when it comes to business identity from a software standpoint. It's a repeated failure of his that is obviously one of the most important aspects of the business
bentanchorbolt
Banned
You can't reason with most people. They are not capable of seeing things through others point of view. If you like something and they don't, to them, it's because it's shit and you have bad taste.
The fact is, this is the best first two years of any Xbox and nearly 30 million people have Game Pass which folks here love to act like has no games. It's whatever dude. You gotta realize arguing with these people is pointless. They simply do not live in a world where they allow themselves to be objective.
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Iced Arcade
Member
Jim Ryan looks like someones moldy old uncle that no one wanted to have kids with and Phil Spencer looks that older cousin who doesn't fit in with the rest of the cousins but has to sit at the kids table and tries to join in on the adult coversations from across the room.
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ZehDon
Gold Member
Public statements in published interviews constitute public declarations. It's why Elon Musk's tweets get him in hot water; there's no such thing as "off the cuff" when you're talking the financials of a publicly traded company. So, as I said: can I see the receipts for Microsoft's fraud?
Well, that's just moving the goal posts, isn't it?
"Phil didn't keep Xbox going - it was never in doubt"
"Ok, sure, it was in doubt, but keeping Xbox going isn't an achievement"
HeisenbergFX4
Gold Member
Actually it kind of is if Xbox was in fact in that kind of trouble especially considering what he has done for Xbox
fart town usa
Gold Member
Neither makes games that I'm all that interested in but I gave it to Jim because I love the PS5 and Sony has Mark Cerny.
also, just realized that Cerny is Garth, lol.
also, just realized that Cerny is Garth, lol.
James Sawyer Ford
Member
I am not claiming financial fraud. I am claiming that GamePass is only possible when viewed from a very specific lens that doesn't consider ALL costs of operating the Xbox studios business.
It's not moving the goal post. Just keeping the business going isn't going to cut it in terms of my vantage point of a successful executive for a huge gaming company. It's simply part of your job, and not a particularly difficult one in a business environment that's highly advantageous to the parent company.
James Sawyer Ford
Member
I don't believe it was ever in serious danger. The Xbox One had a pretty good start even with the turmoil of Mattrick's departure. It was certainly selling more than any other Xbox before it for quite a while, just like the Series S/X are doing now.
The narrative that it was some enormous disaster is a bit false. It failed to live up to the expectations of Xbox gaining momentum globally, and they regressed in the US/UK, but it still was a very well adopted console.
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In Cold Blood
Banned
For one, Phil Spencer is a legit gamer while Jim Ryan couldn't give a shit about games.
Phil Spencer is an actual developer. He has helped develop games, so he knows the industry 10 times more than Jim Ryan does.
Phil came in when Xbox was on the bones of its ass.
It had just performed what will go down in history as the worst product release in history.
A buisness that had whitled down to only 4 studios and a hand full of game IPs.
They had just let their biggest and most successful studio walk away for nothing.
It was a shit show.
He then had to go into MS HQ and vindicate to the brass that Xbox should be continued and infact invested in.
Remember there was a number of influential stakeholders who were calling for the xbox to be shut down.
Jim Ryan walked into a super successful company with the dominant position in the industry. Most of what he has done has been negative.
It's a no brainer.
Plus, Phil is pretty.
Phil Spencer is an actual developer. He has helped develop games, so he knows the industry 10 times more than Jim Ryan does.
Phil came in when Xbox was on the bones of its ass.
It had just performed what will go down in history as the worst product release in history.
A buisness that had whitled down to only 4 studios and a hand full of game IPs.
They had just let their biggest and most successful studio walk away for nothing.
It was a shit show.
He then had to go into MS HQ and vindicate to the brass that Xbox should be continued and infact invested in.
Remember there was a number of influential stakeholders who were calling for the xbox to be shut down.
Jim Ryan walked into a super successful company with the dominant position in the industry. Most of what he has done has been negative.
It's a no brainer.
Plus, Phil is pretty.
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ZehDon
Gold Member
Only one of these can be true. Pick one.
Cool, so actually keeping the company in existence isn't the work of a "successful executive". Interesting perspective. How about producing the best console generation in the twenty-year history of your brand:
Is that the work of a "successful executive"? Or are you "doubtful of the claims" of Microsoft's CEO?
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James Sawyer Ford
Member
No they are not. You can claim profitability by claiming dev costs aren't an expense.
Cool, yeah, that's pretty much a BASELINE expectation of anyone halfway competent at their job at that level.
Interesting perspective that it's some amazing achievement that a gaming company, with the benefit of massive subsidies from Windows, Cloud, and Office, can manage to stay in business.
But, this conversation isn't whether Phil has done a baseline level job. Has he been a disaster? No. But he certainly is far from inspiring anyone with the output of Xbox since he's taken over. The Xbox One was also the "best start" to the Xbox ever during their PR extravaganza, too.
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Syphon Filter
Member
They are on par, but I prefer old sony leadership since now sony mostly puts out overrated movie "games" like ragnarok.
ZehDon
Gold Member
If you don't want to pick one, we're done. Microsoft aren't being fraudulent and Game Pass is profitable. If you've got receipts that say otherwise, post them: virtually every major news site would be interested to see them. If not, then you're just another drone on the internet who doesn't understand their own wild accusations.
In the post you didn't read, I explained that Xbox is having its best generation in its history.
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Cheezewizz
Banned
You'd have to be somewhat of a cuck to vote for Jim Ryan. I say that because from everything I've seen from him. I'd bet that not only does he not play games or even use his own product... but that when speaking privately. I'd also bet he talks shit about those who do.
From when Ryan took over, I don't think Playstation is in a better place today compared to then.
Spencer likes to talk a bit too much for his own good sometimes. But Xbox is in a far better place than it was when he took over. To his credit, he alluded to how he was going to right the Xbox ship way back in 2015-2016 or so, and he methodically followed that plan. Right up to the games part, which we're currently in, but shouldn't be. I think he's done a good job, but for whatever reason, when he tries to get games for Xbox he just struggles.
From when Ryan took over, I don't think Playstation is in a better place today compared to then.
Spencer likes to talk a bit too much for his own good sometimes. But Xbox is in a far better place than it was when he took over. To his credit, he alluded to how he was going to right the Xbox ship way back in 2015-2016 or so, and he methodically followed that plan. Right up to the games part, which we're currently in, but shouldn't be. I think he's done a good job, but for whatever reason, when he tries to get games for Xbox he just struggles.
James Sawyer Ford
Member
The receipts I have are the additional payroll to the tune of like 10,000 extra employees making games that are Day 1 on GamePass not including the Activision acquisition should it go through. Pretty easy for the service to be profitable when you don't include them.
Xbox One was also having its "best generation in history" at the start. Gaming is bigger today than in 2010 which is bigger than it was in 2000. Shocker.
ZehDon
Gold Member
So, no receipts then. I'd cool it on the fraud accusations, friend.
Xbone had its best gen for about a month before it collapsed. We're two years in to Xbox Series X, and it's still sold out in more than a few places. Do you have any other false equivalencies you'd like to post?
But that's not what is this about.
Because even if you like quality games, you can recognize, that Jim Ryan's input as a CEO has nothing to do with quality of Sony's first-party games. He is CEO from 2019. So basically all games that are coming out rn (Horizon, GT7, God of War, Ratchet, Returnal) was approved and budgeted before he came to his role. I'm trying to evaluate both of them from the time they came into their roles.
So, Ryan from 2019
Revealed PS5
Bullshited everybody with "We believe in generations" statements
Raised prices of his consoles almost 2 years after their release
Revealed PSVR2
Revamped PS Plus
Tried to shut down old PS Store which backfired
Bought several studios started with Insomniac in 2019
Closed Japan Studio
Started publishing PS Studios games on PC
Lead the charge into increasing price of games
is charging players with next-gen fee with first-party games
is leading charge into GaaS games
TLDR; When he came into his position, he received business which is greatly set-up by his predecessors, and his decision while sometimes good and make financial sense come across as profit-driven and not consumer friendly.
Spencer from 2014
Got rid of mandatory Kinect with Xbox One
Brought backwards compatibility with 360
Closed several studios starting with Lionhead
Cancelled Scalebound
Made Xbox One X
Created Game Pass
Decided that first-party games will come into Game Pass Day one
Convinced Microsoft's leadership that they need to invest into Xbox more which directly lead to purchase of Mojang, several other studios, Bethesda and Activision Blizzard
Increased number of first-party studios from 5 to 23 (30+ after Activision BLizzard)
Championed cross-play
Tried to increase price of Xbox Live Gold
Made Xbox Series consoles (with cheapest and also most powerful console on the market) and Xbox All-Access Plan
Pushed into broad ecosystem with consoles/PC/cloud all interconnected
Started to release Xbox first-party on PC day one
Xbox Play Anywhere, Smart Delivery, FPS Boost...that are all his babies
TLDR; Spencer inherited trainwreck of a platform that came out with tragic reveal of Xbox One. He not only "saved" Xbox, but he also convinced Microsoft that they need to invest into platform to be successful in future. He also made some questionable decisions, but honestly his only "sin" is that he started investing into first-party output late (from 2018) so competing platforms are still ahead in this category.
Of course, if you are ignoring fact that Ryan came into power in 2019 and you are giving him credit for stuff that his predecessors did, I can see that you like his work more. But I have feeling that many people in this thread are acting like "Ryan has better first-party games so he is better." Which does not need to be necessarily true.
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James Sawyer Ford
Member
That makes me and Phil about even on the "no receipts thing", then. Cool it on the straw man arguments, because you don't need to be fraudulent to not be transparent about the entire truth.
Wasn't just a month. Xbox One ended up not being as big as 360 but it wasn't such a disaster that Xbox was on the cutting room floor.
Really? We are now trying to pretend, that Xbone was a success just to diminish success of Series X/S?
Xbox One had a good sales for a first few months after release. Then came kinectless Xbone that pumped up sales even more, but after one year it was clear, that Xbox One is not IT. Microsoft had to bundle games with system just to get it off shelves and main bulk of sales was always during Black Friday period with discounts and stuff like that.
And yes, Xbox was on the cutting floor when Nadella became CEO of Microsoft. It's well known story.
James Sawyer Ford
Member
I am NOT saying it was a success. But it still sold 60 million units. Xbox 360 sold 84 million in comparison. It's not AS BiG of a disaster as some claim.
Everything is matter of perspective.
Xbox One was not success not because it sold 50+ million consoles. But because PS4 sold almost 120 million consoles. And because Microsoft went from "we are main place to play multiplatform games" to "we are last place to do that."
Xbox 360 was success because it managed to sell almost as many consoles as PS3 after monster success that Sony had with PS2.
That's why I always say that this Microsoft does not need to be sad if PS5 will outsold Series X/S. Because it will. Their main focus should be to narrow a gap. Which is currently happening.
If Series X/S will sold 70+ million consoles, Microsoft can be happy even if PS5 will sell 110 millions. Because that's the sing that they successfully overcome Xbox One gen and that Xbox brand still has strenght.
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ZehDon
Gold Member
One is a CEO of a publicly traded company, with legal obligations to report profitability and losses to their investors and taxation regulators, who has explained their business is profitable in a published interview.
The other is a forum dweller who believes a USD$2.2 trillion-dollar company is fraudulently declaring its profitability status for brownies points in the Console Wars with the source of "my ass".
If you think your ramblings are on par with Spencer's statements, then we've found the straw man.
And you're back to calling Spencer and Nadella liars, as well as other members of this board, who are in a position to know such things, when you're literally just lying about documented facts.
If you don't have anything meaningful to add other than these fucking insane accusations, we're done with this joke of an exchange.
James Sawyer Ford
Member
He’s under no obligation to consider dev costs under the loss side of GP
Nah, that’s you making the claim because you can’t think critically enough to understand there’s far more nuance that goes into it and where there’s no obligation for MS to holistically detail
No, I read the statements by Phil. Wondering whether the business can be viable is not the same thing as seriously considering cutting it at any moment in time.
We’re done here because all you can do is throw out childish insults and straw man arguments and lack the capability of analyzing anything beyond surface level
James Sawyer Ford
Member
That’s great and all if they can manage that, but it’s a separate discussion from whether or not that should still be judged as great leadership by Phil or merely average expectations. Their huge buying spree of devs should guarantee that level of success, but I won’t credit Phil for buying Activision when he’s literally been given the gift of blank checks to buy large swaths of the industry to cover up a decade worth of failures
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Snake29
RSI Employee of the Year
Why don't you just use facts? Jim Ryan is part of Sony Computer Entertainment since the start of PlayStation (1994). Phil didn't join Xbox from the start and was employee for some other Windows software products. Saying he knows the industry 10 times more or better is rather exaggerated and also nonsense it seems to me.
G Godot25
It's not bullshit lol. It just looks like everyone is talking inside an echo chamber these days. It had nothing to do with games in general. People completely ignored the context around it:
This is the full statement.
Phil Spencer might be a great guy in real life, same as Jim. But the problem with him and his other colleagues who like to act like childs sometimes on twitter, are trying way to hard to convince the xbox community that they still exist, and also tries hard to be likeable. He does not deliver.
If he were to leave at Xbox it would be a much harder blow to Xbox when it happens at PlayStation.
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drganon
Member
Counterargument is, that without Spencer there would probably be no Xbox. Because he presented a vision, that ultimately convinced Nadella that they not only will stay in gaming business, but they will also start to invest more money. Which directly resulted in Spencer getting a promotion inside of Microsoft.
There is not enough talk about times, when Xbox was under Windows division inside Microsoft. And chief of that division was Terry Myerson who constantly underfunded Xbox division which directly lead to barren first-party output. Spencer is the man responsible for taking Xbox outside of Windows division and now Xbox is treated as a separate entity.
So yeah. Spencer need to get a credit. But most people will only look at "Jesus, Microsoft did not have AAA first-party game in 2022" without context and then they think that Ryan is better exec than Spencer. What is better than convincing your boss, that you should spend almost 80 billion dollars in 2 years to get you new toys?
Please. Even if you look at a whole quote it directly implies, that when you start new gen, you should throw everything first-party related behind that console and only that console. And of course, people on the internet took it at face value especially since few months before that they almost crucified Matt Booty (XGS chief) for saying, that they expect 1-2 years cross-gen period. So Ryan knew what he was doing when he said that.
Jesus. They even announced bunch of first-party games at first PS5 event where they "forget" to tell everybody that games like Forbidden West, GT7 and Miles Morales will also come to PS4. Geee, I wonder why.
And tbh. I think that they planned to get behind PS5 first-party wise. But that plan was scrapped after they found out that they would not be able to migrate people fast enough to next-gen (which was their plan from the beginning) due to COVID and tough production of new consoles. Even fact, that until HFW they did not have policy in place that managed if next-gen upgrade in cross-gen games would be paid or free should tell you that much.
So yeah. I stand by my statement that Ryan "bulshitted" everybody with "We believe in generations" statement. Because it is not about that sentence alone. But about what they have done in leadup to PS5 generation regarding cross-gen games.
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