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In an industry plagued by stagnation and monotony, "I never would have proposed making Pentiment without Game Pass" - Josh Sawyer

Heisenberg007

Gold Journalism
I'm not sure. Microsoft approved a game like Pentiment - which they wouldn't have if nit for GamePass.

But, Sony released God of War Ragnarok and Horizon Forbidden West. Two games that likely wouldn't exist if they had to go to PS+ day one.

I'm not sure I take this as a positive fir subscription services.
This.

I'm not sure why suddenly big $150-$200 million games with the highest possible production values are bad, and indie games with significantly lower production values and little combat/gameplay from trillion-dollar companies are good.
 

Ozriel

M$FT
I want to see a sucess story about Gamepass or a program that greenlights actual original products no matter what the size or status of the developer is - or scope of the project.

you mean like ID@xbox?

Sawyer peddling this stuff from a cozy position - where I doubt XGS actually gave a shit what he did, they just wanted content - doesn't mean much.

It'd be a good initiative.

For fucks sake, Gamepass is the reason why they wanted content. Hence this thread. You’re actually once again agreeing with Josh Sawyer 😂

Josh: “Thanks to MS subscription service where they need lots of content, I was able to convince them to let me work on this niche title!”

You: “he lies! MS only let him work on this because they needed content for GP”

You aren’t thinking this argument through at all.
 

anthraticus

Banned
This.

I'm not sure why suddenly big $150-$200 million games with the highest possible production values are bad, and indie games with significantly lower production values and little combat/gameplay from trillion-dollar companies are good.
Because they need to make the $$$ back on those zillion dollar games, so they dumb them down to high heavens making sure they appeal to everyone from pre teens to grandmas.
 

Ozriel

M$FT
Nonsense. A game like this could have easily gained some traction on Steam.

Sure, as an indie project on a very lean budget. By people who don’t usually command salaries as expensive as Josh Sawyer and his team.

‘Some traction on Steam’ but Pentiment has peak concurrents of 900+ players yesterday and Steamspy estimates max 50k owners. It’s super niche
 

adamsapple

Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
This.

I'm not sure why suddenly big $150-$200 million games with the highest possible production values are bad, and indie games with significantly lower production values and little combat/gameplay from trillion-dollar companies are good.

I'm not sure where you pulled that conclusion from.

That's not what Sawyer said at all.
 

Ozriel

M$FT
I'm not sure. Microsoft approved a game like Pentiment - which they wouldn't have if nit for GamePass.

But, Sony released God of War Ragnarok and Horizon Forbidden West. Two games that likely wouldn't exist if they had to go to PS+ day one.

I'm not sure I take this as a positive fir subscription services.

Eh, Really doubtful that either of those games cost more than Starfield to make. And that’s coming to GP day one.
Oh hey look at this low budget game by a big trillion dollar company...only possible with Gamepass.

You know how companies get trillion dollar valuations? By making sure pretty much every project is profitable.
Dedicating man-hours of multiple senior software developers to a niche game about medieval Europe isn’t exactly an attractive pitch if profits are paramount.

This just wants FOMO attention so that you subscribe to gamepass because that's what it's become about.

Even for you, this is a poor take.
 
Obra Dinn and Disco Elysium are both made by small indipendent studios, where all the best ideas and some refreshing gameplays come nowaday.

Big Studio make big and safe games, this is the rules in modern times. a game like Pentiment from a well know studios could be a lethal cash hole.

With gamepass, big studio can explore new genres, make side projects because this kind of services need contents and variety, and their asses ar covered by a big umbrella

This is what Sawyer mean

But at the same time it’s impossible to deny that the success of games like Obra Dinn and Disco Elysium, or Oxenfree helped Pentiment to be greenlighted
 
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Three

Member
You know how companies get trillion dollar valuations? By making sure pretty much every project is profitable.
Dedicating man-hours of multiple senior software developers to a niche game about medieval Europe isn’t exactly an attractive pitch if profits are paramount.
That's nice but all you seem to be doing is suggesting that the low budget game would not have sold at profit if people needed to buy it. I've seen higher budget indie games be made and sold enough to be profitable.

Even for you, this is a poor take.
Your opinion. Pentiment is a game that would have little attention if it weren't for MS marketing and occasional PR statements like this. Imagine it wasn't on GP and being sold for £20 only, made by some indie dev who wasn't MS. Its exposure would be absolutely terrible. I suspect most people would not bat an eye.
 
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Heisenberg007

Gold Journalism
Because they need to make the $$$ back on those zillion dollar games, so they dumb them down to high heavens making sure they appeal to everyone from pre teens to grandmas.
Not always the case. Ubisoft has a formula that they stick to; and it has gone stale. But there's nothing dumbing down or playing it safe when it comes to a game like TLOU 2, GOW, Returnal, RDR 2, Zelda BOTW, Elden Ring, Death Stranding, etc.
 
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reksveks

Member
Like Tam from Gamespot idea that this is the 'one for you, one for me' bargain Sawyer did for a much more marketable game.
 
This is different discussion.

Even if he made a game with $100 million budget, it won't be using storytelling like cinemas.

That's what he is saying.
Saying what exactly? What is the purpose of saying you dont like how one of the biggest games of the year tells its story, other than to discard great story telling and mocap acting? Bruh, we're all not easily fooled by this salty pr talk. Did he have anything to say about the shitty performance and glitches of Cyberpunk when it released? Did he say anything about Gothan Nights? How about the shitty remake ports from GTA? Things that really impact the industry in a negative way. Or does he only have something negative to say about one of the critically acclaimed games to release this generation?
 
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Roberts

Member
This is different discussion.

Even if he made a game with $100 million budget, it won't be using storytelling like cinemas.

That's what he is saying.
This tweet has come up here more than once and it obviously triggered some insecurities amongst some people here. It reminds me of all the ding-dongs latching onto Scorsese when he didn't exactly praise MCU. What he said is not wrong, personally, and has every right to say it, but, holy shit, you don't have to agree with it and continue enjoying your Avengers and Thors.
 
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Heisenberg007

Gold Journalism
This is different discussion.

Even if he made a game with $100 million budget, it won't be using storytelling like cinemas.

That's what he is saying.
Why not?

Because he is not good at it? It can't be because it's bad, right?

Games have been trying to emulate storytelling at the level we see in high-quality books and films for years. That has been the final frontier, and only a few developers have been able to reach that mark: Santa Monica, Guerrilla, Rockstar, CDPR, Kojima, Bioware, etc. And these games and studios have been critically acclaimed for it and are considered some of the best in the business.

Why wouldn't he use storytelling like cinemas (which has been the ultimate goal for the gaming industry) and downplay critically acclaimed games that are rated much higher than his games?
 
Saying what exactly? What is the purpose of saying you dont like how one of the biggest games of the year tells its story, other than to discard great story telling and mocap acting? Bruh, we're all not easily fooled by this salty pr talk. Did he have anything to say about the shitty performance and glitches of Cyberpunk when it released? Did he say anything about Gothan Nights? How about the shitty remake ports from GTA? Things that really impact the industry in a negative way. Or does he only have something negative to say about one of the critically acclaimed games to release this generation?
Look at the date of that tweet, and seeing how you’re reacting to his tweet I guess his opinion really does trigger people🤷‍♂️.
 

Heisenberg007

Gold Journalism
This tweet has come up her more than once and it obviously triggered some insecurities amongst some people here. It reminds me of all the ding-dongs latching onto Scorsese when he didn't exactly praise MCU. What he said is not wrong, personally, and has every right to say it, but, holy shit, you don't have to agree with it and continue enjoying your Avengers and Thors.
No one's triggered bro. It's just a discussion. However, the only one insecure here seems to be Josh Sawyer who feels the need for downplaying other games and other creators' work, just to prop up his own (referring to the tweet).

He could say nothing. Or he could say that there is a place for every type of game: narrative-drive games are amazing because they take us closer to the high-quality level of storytelling we see in cinemas and he hopes there's a place for more unconventional games like Pentiment.

I'm sure people would have praised him for it and wished him good luck.

It doesn't really take a lot to not be a jerk. Here's an example of how Cory Barlog sided with Elden Ring when people criticized Elden Ring for being nominated for best narrative. Secure people don't feel the need to bring others down.

 

Ozriel

M$FT
That is exactly what he has been implying -- downplaying big AAA narrative-driven games to prop up his own game.



He made a tweet in 2020 to prop up his game released in Q4 2022? All to ‘downplay’ games that aren’t targeting the same audience as his small release?

Waving T-Mobile GIF by Magenta
 
Why not?

Because he is not good at it? It can't be because it's bad, right?

Games have been trying to emulate storytelling at the level we see in high-quality books and films for years. That has been the final frontier, and only a few developers have been able to reach that mark: Santa Monica, Guerrilla, Rockstar, CDPR, Kojima, Bioware, etc. And these games and studios have been critically acclaimed for it and are considered some of the best in the business.

Why wouldn't he use storytelling like cinemas (which has been the ultimate goal for the gaming industry) and downplay critically acclaimed games that are rated much higher than his games?
Because like he said he doesn’t find it interesting🤷‍♂️, not all game directors are trying to be Hollywood directors.Lets not act like josh is some scrub game dev either.These are the games he directed

Fallout:NV - 84 meta
Pillars 1: 89 meta
Pillars 2: 88 meta
Pentiment: 86 meta

Not bad.
 

Ozriel

M$FT
That's nice but all you seem to be doing is suggesting that the low budget game would not have sold at profit if people needed to buy it. I've seen higher budget indie games be made and sold enough to be profitable.

It’s likely it would have sold at profit, but that’s not guaranteed. It’s less about the budget and more about the fact that it’s super niche.

It’s also extremely hypocritical for you to pontificate like this when this was your thought about the game mere months ago

cQGLkQY.jpg


Going from ‘it looks terrible’, ‘it’s a ripoff’ and ‘it looks like a flash game’ to ‘there’s no risk, it would have sold at a profit’ is really really weird.

Your opinion. Pentiment is a game that would have little attention if it weren't for MS marketing and occasional PR statements like this. Imagine it wasn't on GP and being sold for £20 only, made by some indie dev who wasn't MS. Its exposure would be absolutely terrible. I suspect most people would not bat an eye.

Thank you for agreeing with Sawyer and outlining why he was skeptical it would be greenlit.

You folks easily forget that for every hour Sawyer and team worked on Pentiment, that’s an hour not spent on a bigger, more crowd pleasing AAA title that would drive more GP subs.
 

Chukhopops

Member
Saying what exactly? What is the purpose of saying you dont like how one of the biggest games of the year tells its story, other than to discard great story telling and mocap acting? Bruh, we're all not easily fooled by this salty pr talk. Did he have anything to say about the shitty performance and glitches of Cyberpunk when it released? Did he say anything about Gothan Nights? How about the shitty remake ports from GTA? Things that really impact the industry in a negative way. Or does he only have something negative to say about one of the critically acclaimed games to release this generation?
Bruh the tweet is from 2020…

Also his point is that he doesn’t find it interesting because of lack of choice. Just below the tweet he talks about Cage and Quantic Dream:


If you don’t get it at this point it’s on you.

He’s completely right, what’s the point of story in a video game if you can’t influence it?
 
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Why not?

Because he is not good at it? It can't be because it's bad, right?

Games have been trying to emulate storytelling at the level we see in high-quality books and films for years. That has been the final frontier, and only a few developers have been able to reach that mark: Santa Monica, Guerrilla, Rockstar, CDPR, Kojima, Bioware, etc. And these games and studios have been critically acclaimed for it and are considered some of the best in the business.

Why wouldn't he use storytelling like cinemas (which has been the ultimate goal for the gaming industry) and downplay critically acclaimed games that are rated much higher than his games?
Because heavy story driven games are good and all, but limited in scope. Videogame is a medium capable of much much more.

It’s ok to like Ragnarok or Tsushima, but as a videogames they are both very stale and flat. Awesome blockbuster like End Game for cinema are good for gaming industry, but everyone need to accept that at the same time they are the lowest and easiest expression of the medium.
 
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Handel

Member
Why not?

Because he is not good at it? It can't be because it's bad, right?

Games have been trying to emulate storytelling at the level we see in high-quality books and films for years. That has been the final frontier, and only a few developers have been able to reach that mark: Santa Monica, Guerrilla, Rockstar, CDPR, Kojima, Bioware, etc. And these games and studios have been critically acclaimed for it and are considered some of the best in the business.

Why wouldn't he use storytelling like cinemas (which has been the ultimate goal for the gaming industry) and downplay critically acclaimed games that are rated much higher than his games?
Games are a different medium, that has the ability to tell stories in their own unique ways due to the interactive element, so the best game stories should be different then the best movies/games. Each medium has it's strengths, and it's doing games a disservice to say they're lesser stories if they don't have a certain element of film/tv storytelling, just like it's doing film a disservice to ding it for not replicating things largely unique to book storytelling.

That so many games are trying for wannabe Hollywood, and that the best of those games get drooled over by older gamers/game critics trying to feel like their hobby has "matured", is a disservice to the mediums evolution in storytelling. Games can certainly borrow some techniques from other mediums to enhance their storytelling, but the interactive element should be at the forefront of game storytelling. This is what devs like Fumito Ueda understand that so few others do, even some inspired by his work. Ico utilizes camera techniques from film, but the game has few cutscenes or dialogue, and the storytelling comes mostly through interactions with Yorda and the castle. Big twists in the story aren't explicitly stated, but are implied through visual design, and enhanced through the way you have to interact with the scenario laid out via gameplay.
 
Saying what exactly? What is the purpose of saying you dont like how one of the biggest games of the year tells its story, other than to discard great story telling and mocap acting? Bruh, we're all not easily fooled by this salty pr talk. Did he have anything to say about the shitty performance and glitches of Cyberpunk when it released? Did he say anything about Gothan Nights? How about the shitty remake ports from GTA? Things that really impact the industry in a negative way. Or does he only have something negative to say about one of the critically acclaimed games to release this generation?

Why not?

Because he is not good at it? It can't be because it's bad, right?

Games have been trying to emulate storytelling at the level we see in high-quality books and films for years. That has been the final frontier, and only a few developers have been able to reach that mark: Santa Monica, Guerrilla, Rockstar, CDPR, Kojima, Bioware, etc. And these games and studios have been critically acclaimed for it and are considered some of the best in the business.

Why wouldn't he use storytelling like cinemas (which has been the ultimate goal for the gaming industry) and downplay critically acclaimed games that are rated much higher than his games?

His company makes games differently and it would be quiet obvious he would have different views on what makes a good game.

Nothing surprising here.
 

Roberts

Member
No one's triggered bro. It's just a discussion. However, the only one insecure here seems to be Josh Sawyer who feels the need for downplaying other games and other creators' work, just to prop up his own (referring to the tweet).

He could say nothing. Or he could say that there is a place for every type of game: narrative-drive games are amazing because they take us closer to the high-quality level of storytelling we see in cinemas and he hopes there's a place for more unconventional games like Pentiment.

I'm sure people would have praised him for it and wished him good luck.

It doesn't really take a lot to not be a jerk. Here's an example of how Cory Barlog sided with Elden Ring when people criticized Elden Ring for being nominated for best narrative. Secure people don't feel the need to bring others down.



Cory is just about the nicest guy in the business and don’t think he is even capable at throwing shade at others.

But it’s funny you mention him, because he clearly understands the distinction between these two mediums and it shows in his game. Sawyer was talking about more derivative approach of making game narratives to look like cinema.
 
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GhostOfTsu

Banned
Because heavy story driven games are good and all, but limited in scope. Videogame is a medium capable of much much more.

It’s ok to like Ragnarok or Tsushima, but as a videogames they are both very stale and flat. Awesome blockbuster like End Game for cinema are good for gaming industry, but everyone need to accept that at the same time they are the lowest and easiest expression of the medium.
Games are a different medium, that has the ability to tell stories in their own unique ways due to the interactive element, so the best game stories should be different then the best movies/games. Each medium has it's strengths, and it's doing games a disservice to say they're lesser stories if they don't have a certain element of film/tv storytelling, just like it's doing film a disservice to ding it for not replicating things largely unique to book storytelling.
All this shade at Ragnarok and GOT and then look how fast they will switch when Hellblade 2 comes out. It will make your head spin.

Now VNs and text adventures are all the rage 😅
 
All this shade at Ragnarok and GOT and then look how fast they will switch when Hellblade 2 comes out. It will make your head spin.

Now VNs and text adventures are all the rage 😅
No, my name is not ”Hellbla”

I have the same stance with Hellblade: it’s very important to have game like this, but their are not the greatest in what the medium can image and build
 

Kokoloko85

Member
All this shade at Ragnarok and GOT and then look how fast they will switch when Hellblade 2 comes out. It will make your head spin.

Now VNs and text adventures are all the rage 😅
Its gonna turn from Walking sim genre to Epic for the fanboys.
They’ll say shit like its got stealth so its different…. Truth is they wish they had a game like GOWR and TLOU
 

Chukhopops

Member
Its gonna turn from Walking sim genre to Epic for the fanboys.
They’ll say shit like its got stealth so its different…. Truth is they wish they had a game like GOWR and TLOU
Hellblade / TLOU / Ragnarok / etc: linear story that you cannot influence in any way.

Games Sawyer makes/likes: open narratives where you can influence the story.

If it’s too complicated for you just wait 30 seconds and an NPC will give you a hint.
 

adamsapple

Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
That is exactly what he has been implying -- downplaying big AAA narrative-driven games to prop up his own game.




That is a tweet from 2+ years ago, it has nothing to do with what he said about Pentiment in this topic. Also, even in that tweet taking the implication that he's calling AAA games with big budgets bad is an INCREDIBLE stretch.


It’s likely it would have sold at profit, but that’s not guaranteed. It’s less about the budget and more about the fact that it’s super niche.

It’s also extremely hypocritical for you to pontificate like this when this was your thought about the game mere months ago

cQGLkQY.jpg


Going from ‘it looks terrible’, ‘it’s a ripoff’ and ‘it looks like a flash game’ to ‘there’s no risk, it would have sold at a profit’ is really really weird.

The goal posts change, they always do.
 
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Tams

Member
Lol, enjoy it while Microsoft is prepared to throw the money around.

This always comes in phases though. They'll turn the money taps off eventually. Hopefully those who get money out of it manage to sufficiently fill their buckets before then.
 
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Heisenberg007

Gold Journalism
Games are a different medium, that has the ability to tell stories in their own unique ways due to the interactive element, so the best game stories should be different then the best movies/games. Each medium has it's strengths, and it's doing games a disservice to say they're lesser stories if they don't have a certain element of film/tv storytelling, just like it's doing film a disservice to ding it for not replicating things largely unique to book storytelling.

That so many games are trying for wannabe Hollywood, and that the best of those games get drooled over by older gamers/game critics trying to feel like their hobby has "matured", is a disservice to the mediums evolution in storytelling. Games can certainly borrow some techniques from other mediums to enhance their storytelling, but the interactive element should be at the forefront of game storytelling. This is what devs like Fumito Ueda understand that so few others do, even some inspired by his work. Ico utilizes camera techniques from film, but the game has few cutscenes or dialogue, and the storytelling comes mostly through interactions with Yorda and the castle. Big twists in the story aren't explicitly stated, but are implied through visual design, and enhanced through the way you have to interact with the scenario laid out via gameplay.
I agree with you. In my opinion, there is a place for every type of interactive media.
 

Heisenberg007

Gold Journalism
So, in your words the big AAA narrative-driven are emulating the storytelling and mechanics of cinema?
They do, and some games like GOWR, Death Stranding, TLOU 2 even add to it, instead of only emulating that. There's a place for it in the industry, as that has been a big goal over the years. To call it "not interesting" is a disservice.
 

Bernkastel

Ask me about my fanboy energy!
Starfield was already being made well before Microsoft's involvement and their canceling the PS5 version that was also being made.
Microsoft bought Bethesda in 2020 and they were in talks to acquire them since 2018. Why do you think there was anything other a PC version in 2020 when the next gen consoles had not even been released? Also Bethesda usually develops for PC first and then optimizes for consoles.
 

Bernkastel

Ask me about my fanboy energy!
They do, and some games like GOWR, Death Stranding, TLOU 2 even add to it, instead of only emulating that. There's a place for it in the industry, as that has been a big goal over the years. To call it "not interesting" is a disservice.
Weird that people didn't like the movie games remark(not that I ever used it), but are you proposing that those games you mentioned are "emulating the storytelling and mechanics of cinema"?
 
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