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Horizon Forbidden West: Evolving Aloy (new character model and visual updates)

sircaw

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star trek yes GIF
Nope, it's going to be Aloy and those 3 elder mothers all sharing a hot spring.

No good looking orgies allowed "lollipop_disappointed:
 

tkscz

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Eh, they gave her a bigger head. That's really all I'm seeing.

Now I get it, they made her fatter for cosplayers so they could more easily identify with her. Duh! It all makes sense now.



Hey fatties in the west: put the twinkies down so we can get fit and friendly made-up characters in video games again. We don't all want to have to become weeabos. Thanks! :messenger_tears_of_joy:
I may be married now but if you ever threaten to take my fat women away again, we'll have some problems


What the actual fuck. She looks 12.
 
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junguler

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NeoGAF is a mixture of insane people, insane people who produce genuinely funny posts, and a smattering of normal, well adjusted individuals who have reasonable and occasionally insightful takes.

This thread contains all three types of people.
please give some examples for each type and @ them so we can know who they really are.
 
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She looks a bit older now (she's 34) but she doesn't look much bigger.



The only guys running away from a date with this women thinking "she is too fat" are the alphas on this channel!

On a side note before we could assume pics on dating site I actually ran away from a fat date (she could not keep up) by going through a park... I'm so mean, I'm going to hell.
 

Croatoan

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Aloy is another Actress to 3d model fail. Actress looks feminine, Aloy looks masculine. What gives you say? Well, directly copying (scanning) real women makes the 3d model of them look male. Putting makeup on them can help partially fix this issue, but obviously in a game like Horizon you can't have your post apoc heroine running around in eye shadow. So you HAVE to stylize the female scans or man face happens. This phenomenon should be given a catchy name, "3d Man Face Syndrome" or something. I have no idea why this happens but you can scan just about any woman's face a get the same result. Something to do with the uncanny valley? Male faces also suffer from scanning but mostly because they look uncanny.

Stylization helps both male and female faces become more acceptable. Western companies wont do it, or wont do much of it, because the usual suspects (within the company) get pissed when you try to idealize a real woman's face. Get used to male looking female characters as seen in Horizon Zero Dawn and Control. Its politics limiting an artists ability to create.

Companies that don't rely on 100% directly scanned characters will have better looking models.

edit: I'd like to clarify that scanned models ARE edited but they are edited to clean them up, adjust high poly (zbrush, etc), get proper edge flow (Re-topo), fix various scanned texture issues, and make stuff look more realistic using the actress/actor as a basis (something that, IMO just never translates well and ends up looking...uncanny). Thing is, we don't need more realism, we need more artistry and imagination. There are a lot of good looking characters out there that start as a scan and then become stylized/idealized and still look realistic. There are also a lot of good looking characters that start as 2d art and are made from scratch with no real actor or actress as a base.

To be honest, I have never really seen a good actor to 3d model conversion other than Death Stranding. Whatever Kojima's process is works.

Edit 2: Part of the problem with Aloy is that hairstyle does absolutely nothing for her face shape. It actually makes everything worse.

Edit 3: Funnily enough it appears that GG actually thought the scanned model was too feminine and made her more masculine on purpose. Why you want a female to look more masculine is flabbergasting to me but well its current year so...yeah. Anyways I stand behind what I said above but I must also point out that a lot of real women look more manly without make up. I mean, there is a reason that stuff exists.
 
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reezoo

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I am glad gaming industry has move away from the way it used to design female game characters. It’s also a sign of gamers and game creators getting mature age wise or otherwise. For me personally, it has made it a lot easier for me to play games in front of my kids specially in front of my daughter. I recently finished HZD and there was no issue playing that game when they are around. I also have Neir Automata but having second thoughts playing it when they are watching.
 

Coolwhhip

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I am glad gaming industry has move away from the way it used to design female game characters. It’s also a sign of gamers and game creators getting mature age wise or otherwise. For me personally, it has made it a lot easier for me to play games in front of my kids specially in front of my daughter. I recently finished HZD and there was no issue playing that game when they are around. I also have Neir Automata but having second thoughts playing it when they are watching.

Wait so you are okay with your kid watching you murder everything on screen, but you draw the line at female characters showing skin?
 
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tkscz

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It's Piper Perri, and she was 20 when she did that scene.


I bet she looked worse about 2 hours after that pic was taken.

I know you're telling the truth but I can't see that as an adult woman. It's like that 1000 year old dragon situation.
 
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Hezekiah

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OK OP was a long ass post which I didn't get through. Does all this mean Guerilla are doing away with the fat face?
 
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reezoo

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Wait so you are okay with your kid watching you murder everything on screen, but you draw the line at showing skin?
This is a common pattern, to bring violence into the picture as counter argument. First, no I am not comfortable and I don’t play games in front of them that actually have violence grounded in reality. Example, I play HZD or Spider-Man in front of them but not The Last of Us.
 

Croatoan

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I am glad gaming industry has move away from the way it used to design female game characters. It’s also a sign of gamers and game creators getting mature age wise or otherwise. For me personally, it has made it a lot easier for me to play games in front of my kids specially in front of my daughter. I recently finished HZD and there was no issue playing that game when they are around. I also have Neir Automata but having second thoughts playing it when they are watching.
Most people are talking about Aloy's face, not that she isn't showing skin. Her face sucks and looks manly. The actress she is based on is quite pretty though.
 
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BadBurger

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Get vaccinated
She looks a bit older now (she's 34) but she doesn't look much bigger.




The final product, even in the first game, looks almost nothing like her. I wonder why they hired an actress to do the fundamental mocap for all of their facial animations and such, only to change the character's fundamental proportions (and hence appear very different). I figured modern animators and directors would rather keep the appearance of the actors, like Quantic Dream does, or Guerilla did with Delsin Rowe, etc. It's not like she's portraying a character of a different race, or is some Greek goddess or something.
 

reezoo

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Most people are talking about Aloy's face, not that she isn't showing skin. Her face sucks and looks manly. The actress she is based on is quite pretty though.
Some of the responses in this thread are more then about her face. I wanted to share a perspective of a person who grew up with gaming. Average gamers age has moved from teens to 30+. A lot of it is getting reflected into the gaming content. There are still games that cater for younger audiences but gaming content will spread out to cater for all ages as time moves on. Movie industry is a good example of it.

what is an average age of PlayStation owner? A lot will make sense based on it.

Sorry second edit, take an example of Kratos, he no longer looks as young as in first God of War game. I didn’t see much around him ageing.
 
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Tqaulity

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Just because the team has been pushing the boundaries on the PlayStation 5 version of Horizon Forbidden West, doesn’t mean that the PlayStation 4 version will be compromised, notes Bastien. “We actually developed and tested the game simultaneously on both PlayStation 4 and PlayStation 5, because it’s very important to us as a studio to ensure PlayStation 4 players get an equally immersive experience.
Ummm...WTF??! Is this not an oxymoron? How can you "push of the boundaries" of a system that is 6-8x more powerful (with 100x faster IO) and not compromise the lower system? How can the system with less than 20% of the raw performance and no 3D audio, no Dualsense features, no SSD get an "equally immersive experience"?

I love Guerilla, but this is everything that is wrong with this "cross gen" phase (or at least I hope its a phase). Sure the game looks like a marked step up from the original game but again the engine is still based on the PS4. PS5 will just push more pixels and frames (once again) which is NOT "pushing the boundaries" of the next gen platform.
 

MikeM

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NeoGAF is a mixture of insane people, insane people who produce genuinely funny posts, and a smattering of normal, well adjusted individuals who have reasonable and occasionally insightful takes.

This thread contains all three types of people.

Tom Cruise 80S GIF


This is a common pattern, to bring violence into the picture as counter argument. First, no I am not comfortable and I don’t play games in front of them that actually have violence grounded in reality. Example, I play HZD or Spider-Man in front of them but not The Last of Us.

I play COD Warzone and Cold War in front of my three year old. She knows its fake and doesn't pretend to shoot people at all. I guess it depends on the kid and the parent.

I recently let her watch me play the start of A Plague's Tale.
Well, lets just say I wasn't expecting what happened and she learned an early life lesson that dogs do die and never come back.
 
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Coolwhhip

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Tom Cruise 80S GIF




I play COD Warzone and Cold War in front of my three year old. She knows its fake and doesn't pretend to shoot people at all. I guess it depends on the kid and the parent.

I recently let her watch me play the start of A Plague's Tale.
Well, lets just say I wasn't expecting what happened and she learned an early life lesson that dogs do die and never come back.

Expect a call from Netflix soon.
 

Vaelka

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My problem with Aloy is she is dry as fuck! Guerrilla chose most most boring way to make “strong female lead”. Also based on trailer she still loudly talking to herself but motly talking to the players which makes it super awkward.

But I leaned my lesson from KZ Shadow fall and original Horizon, I just dont like how Guerrilla make games.

The fact that she gets put up on a pedestal as like '' the best female character in gaming '' is just so bizarre to me.
And characters talking to themselves and giving the most obvious tips imaginable is extremely irritating to me.
It makes both the protagonist come across like a moron acting like they just figured out something amazing and like the game is treating me like a moron too who needs to be told what a ladder is or to shoot the gigantic glowy thing ( why even make it a gigantic glowy thing then ).

Aloy really struck me as a blank slate character, she was so uninteresting and bland because they wanted everyone to be able to '' identify with her ''. So they couldn't give her an actual personality of her own.

I am glad gaming industry has move away from the way it used to design female game characters. It’s also a sign of gamers and game creators getting mature age wise or otherwise. For me personally, it has made it a lot easier for me to play games in front of my kids specially in front of my daughter. I recently finished HZD and there was no issue playing that game when they are around. I also have Neir Automata but having second thoughts playing it when they are watching.

Part of being a mature person imo is being able to enjoy things and not worry about whether it's '' mature '' or not.
Not every game in existence is meant for you and your daughter either, literally no one is saying that every female character in existence has to be like 2B or whatever.
Like what does your daughter have to do with anything?
This is what ratings are for, and don't pretend like you didn't have games with female characters like these before...
And if 2B's design is what you consider to be '' too adult '' for your daughter in Nier Automata then I seriously question your parenting.

If you're embarrassed about playing Nier Automata because of 2B then that says more about you than the game and you're the one being immature.
I used to play Soul Calibur with my two sisters in front of my mom and they had no issues with Ivy, my mom thought she was hilarious.
Some of y'all just need to relax a little.

The whole maturity argument is also just really weird because it sure as hell is treated like mature content.
If it's '' immature and for teenage boys '' then why do games often get mature ratings because of it?
The actual adult thing is being able to just enjoy what you enjoy without being a judgemental twat about it or feeling embarrassed about things for ultimately totally arbitrary reasons.
It's especially annoying because this is solely directed towards women, no one talks like this about games with men who are half-naked.
 
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Croatoan

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The final product, even in the first game, looks almost nothing like her. I wonder why they hired an actress to do the fundamental mocap for all of their facial animations and such, only to change the character's fundamental proportions (and hence appear very different). I figured modern animators and directors would rather keep the appearance of the actors, like Quantic Dream does, or Guerilla did with Delsin Rowe, etc. It's not like she's portraying a character of a different race, or is some Greek goddess or something.
Sorta explained this in my post above. It isn't easy to transition from real person to 3d model. Scanning a real person usually ends up with an ugly character (uncanny valley) and an artist has to come in and really mess with the model to make it look right. Its honestly kind of counter intuitive but sometimes you have to idealize a real person's scan to make it actually look like the real person. Or a better way to put it is that sometimes you have to stylize a real person's face to make the human mind accept the 3d model (aka. get it out of the uncanny valley). Doing this is often times frowned upon in companies who follow a certain political mindset as you are technically trying to make the actress or actor more attractive.

Its an odd phenomenon. Also, some people scan better than others, and some companies intentionally make characters more ugly than their "actors or actresses".
 
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vpance

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Aloy is another Actress to 3d model fail. Actress looks feminine, Aloy looks masculine. What gives you say? Well, directly copying (scanning) real women makes the 3d model of them look male. Putting makeup on them can help partially fix this issue, but obviously in a game like Horizon you can't have your post apoc heroine running around in eye shadow. So you HAVE to stylize the female scans or man face happens. This phenomenon should be given a catchy name, "3d Man Face Syndrome" or something. I have no idea why this happens but you can scan just about any woman's face a get the same result. Something to do with the uncanny valley? Male faces also suffer from scanning but mostly because they look uncanny.

Stylization helps both male and female faces become more acceptable. Western companies wont do it, or wont do much of it, because the usual suspects (within the company) get pissed when you try to idealize a real woman's face. Get used to male looking female characters as seen in Horizon Zero Dawn and Control. Its politics limiting an artists ability to create.

Companies that don't rely on 100% directly scanned characters will have better looking models.

edit: I'd like to clarify that scanned models ARE edited but they are edited to clean them up, get proper edge flow, fix various scanned texture issues, and make stuff look more realistic using the actress/actor as a basis (something that, IMO just never translates well and ends up looking...uncanny). Thing is, we don't need more realism, we need more artistry and imagination. There are a lot of good looking characters out there that start as a scan and then become stylized/idealized. There are also a lot of good looking characters that start as 2d art and are made from scratch with no real actor or actress as a base.

To be honest, I have never really seen a good actor to 3d model conversion other than Death Stranding. Whatever Kojima's process is works.

Edit 2: Part of the problem with Aloy is that hairstyle does absolutely nothing for her face shape. It actually makes everything worse.

It's not a scanning issue, the character modelers from the first game said they modified her face to be more masculine.
 

Croatoan

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It's not a scanning issue, the character modelers from the first game said they modified her face to be more masculine.
That's a disturbing fact then, and reeks of politics. In my experience dealing with scan data "man face syndrome" does exist. Of coarse once an artist has that data they can manipulate it however they want.
 
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Coolwhhip

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Sorta explained this in my post above. It isn't easy to transition from real person to 3d model. Scanning a real person usually ends up with an ugly character (uncanny valley) and an artist has to come in and really mess with the model to make it look right. Its honestly kind of counter intuitive but sometimes you have to idealize a real person's scan to make it actually look like the real person. Or a better way to put it is that sometimes you have to stylize a real person's face to make the human mind accept the 3d model (aka. get it out of the uncanny valley). Doing this is often times frowned upon in companies who follow a certain political mindset as you are technically trying to make the actress or actor more attractive.

Its an odd phenomenon. Also, some people scan better than others, and some companies intentionally make characters more ugly than their "actors or actresses".

Then how did Rare already perfect the technology in the 90s?

 

Croatoan

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Then how did Rare already perfect the technology in the 90s?


Magic.


Actually if you remove the make up and hair from that model she would look male. To be perfectly honest, if you removed the make up and hair from a lot of real women they would look male (at least facially). There is a reason make up exists, and women have their own hairstyles. If you find a woman that looks good without makeup then you have found real beauty.

I have a feeling Aloy would look better with her hair down. Either that or her face thinned.
 
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Vaelka

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Wait so you are okay with your kid watching you murder everything on screen, but you draw the line at female characters showing skin?

Dads like these are usually extremely insufferable for most girls growing up as soon as they get older.
It's a recipe for your daughter to hate you in the future.

Being a prude and acting like women showing skin is a crime and dehumanizing is straight up misogynistic and also extremely controlling and infantilizing behaviour.
This is in reality more about dads feeling overly protective and wanting their daughters to be '' pure '', it's extremely creepy and weird especially when they want to control what other adult women do and how they dress because of their daughters existence.
Just fuck off.
If they don't want their kids to play certain games or watch certain movies then fine, but the moment it enters into a bunch of morality policing and controlling behaviour it goes too far.
 

reezoo

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Tom Cruise 80S GIF




I play COD Warzone and Cold War in front of my three year old. She knows its fake and doesn't pretend to shoot people at all. I guess it depends on the kid and the parent.

I recently let her watch me play the start of A Plague's Tale.
Well, lets just say I wasn't expecting what happened and she learned an early life lesson that dogs do die and never come back.
Cartoons are one of the most violent things that human produces but again 0 connection with reality
The fact that she gets put up on a pedestal as like '' the best female character in gaming '' is just so bizarre to me.
And characters talking to themselves and giving the most obvious tips imaginable is extremely irritating to me.
It makes both the protagonist come across like a moron acting like they just figured out something amazing and like the game is treating me like a moron too who needs to be told what a ladder is or to shoot the gigantic glowy thing ( why even make it a gigantic glowy thing then ).

Aloy really struck me as a blank slate character, she was so uninteresting and bland because they wanted everyone to be able to '' identify with her ''. So they couldn't give her an actual personality of her own.



Part of being a mature person imo is being able to enjoy things and not worry about whether it's '' mature '' or not.
Not every game in existence is meant for you and your daughter either, literally no one is saying that every female character in existence has to be like 2B or whatever.
Like what does your daughter have to do with anything?
This is what ratings are for, and don't pretend like you didn't have games with female characters like these before...
And if 2B's design is what you consider to be '' too adult '' for your daughter in Nier Automata then I seriously question your parenting.

If you're embarrassed about playing Nier Automata because of 2B then that says more about you than the game and you're the one being immature.
I used to play Soul Calibur with my two sisters in front of my mom and they had no issues with Ivy, my mom thought she was hilarious.
Some of y'all just need to relax a little.

The whole maturity argument is also just really weird because it sure as hell is treated like mature content.
If it's '' immature and for teenage boys '' then why do games often get mature ratings because of it?
The actual adult thing is being able to just enjoy what you enjoy without being a judgemental twat about it or feeling embarrassed about things for ultimately totally arbitrary reasons.
It's especially annoying because this is solely directed towards women, no one talks like this about games with men who are half-naked.
as I mentioned in my other reply the mature part is not just for the sake of it. There are other “forces”, age of gamers widening, average age much higher, even average age of game creators. All these things will influence content created for games. Some game creators will target one set of audience some other but there will be more variety now compared to the 90s and 00s.
 

reezoo

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Dads like these are usually extremely insufferable for most girls growing up as soon as they get older.
It's a recipe for your daughter to hate you in the future.

Being a prude and acting like women showing skin is a crime and dehumanizing is straight up misogynistic and also extremely controlling and infantilizing behaviour.
This is in reality more about dads feeling overly protective and wanting their daughters to be '' pure '', it's extremely creepy and weird especially when they want to control what other adult women do and how they dress because of their daughters existence.
Just fuck off.
If they don't want their kids to play certain games or watch certain movies then fine, but the moment it enters into a bunch of morality policing and controlling behaviour it goes too far.
You are reading the whole thing wrong buddy. The idea is to be not misogynistic and dehumanise women by objectifying them.