Support NeoGAF

[Evilms]

 

[assurdum]

Cross-gen is okay. Pretending you're not isn't.

Two years in cross-gen is shaky but that's not the heart of the issue.

Again make new games cost tons of money, ps5 has a small userbase and people as you pretend to not use crossgen or pc port to get more revenues because it's unfair. If you want more new games, that's the "compromise".

 

[Griffon]

Well, since nobody can buy a PS5, it make sense to not shackle their next big games to a very limited platform.

 

[Bladed Thesis]

People really didn't read the Jim Ryan "we believe in generations" interview.

So is it the consumers' fault also when they read PS5 exclusive on GT7? Or when Sony ran a montage of PS5 Exclusives and had God of War Ragnarok symbol?

The issues ISN'T that Sony believes in generations or even TOLD US they believe in generations. The issue is FOR THESE SPECIFIC titles, Sony led consumers to believe these specific titles were not crossgen.

The amount of people acting like "oh yeah, that's expected" from both the GoW delay and the crossgen aspect are a lot of familiar names that said "wait until you see GoW" when Horizons was mentioned as crossgen. Somebody can go back and find the receipts. It happens EVERY time around here. Same group, same people. Same people who laughed and laughed and laughed when Sony gave the interview directly after MS said they would be supporting Xbox One for a few years. Now those same posters are like "wasn't this obvious"?

Be consistent. I held MS feet to the flames on that shit because I disagreed with it then (still do) and I'll hold Sony to the same level of accountability. Nay, a higher level of accountability. Because MS told me they were going to do it, as much as I disliked that stance. Sony blatantly showed me images that told me for the majority of their major titles they weren't going about it that way.

 

[KAL2006]

So, possibility #1 is, they lied, and GT7 was always going to be a PS5 exclusive. That sucks.

But possibility #2 is, in working on the project over the past year since we saw it, they re-evaluated the project and determined that a PS4 version could be produced as well (possibly with hiring a contract/subteam to do the porting,) and that financially, it has to be done one way or another since the market has had a tough year. So take out RT, create bakes of some of the light sources that was realtime GI, process a lower set of models, make some loading screens since you're going to need those now, and get to work porting down.

All we know is that a PS4 version exists. Everything about that version, and its impact on the PS5 version production, is speculation.



Your imagination cannot tell you what a true PS5 only AAA heavy bitter would look like either. You're making up a version of Horizon where the leaves are super-next-gen and you can just jump on a flying beast to go wherever you want on the map (which A. would be a mess for level design if flight was just ever-present because PS5 could do it, but also, they should be able to do flight even on PS4.) You'd be hard-pressed to name another game on another platform or on PS5 that is showing Horizon FW to be dated technology.

The actual game engine does what it does based on a decade+ of work at Guerrilla, with or without the existence of PS5, and the improvements they make for it in future Decima projects will be less about "the power of PS5" and more about just having more simulation algorithms to integrated into its toolkit. Decima is not a PS4 or PS5 engine, just like Unreal Engine 5 is not a next-gen engine or a past-gen engine or a mobile/Switch engine; it is an engine to make games, period.

I want to see something that cannot be done on PS4 too, but technology that really harnesses the power of these consoles in unheard-of ways is not on the market yet. We don't even know what those unheard-of ways are, even, if/when they ever do exist. UE5 is not done, and it will still have its drawbacks and "cross-gen qualities" when it deploys (and not just in cross-gen UE5 games, which will also exist; Nanite itself has distinct limitations that will make it not useable in circumstances and Lumen isn't a canopener either, so shiny new UE5 games will still mix regular models and baked lighting and you'll probably never notice the difference.) R&C Rift Apart is great and uses the SSD in a genius way, but it uses a lot of tech from Spider-Man MM so we're demanding new engines to qualify as next-gen, that game is out because it's "using a cross-gen engine." Then there's Returnal and Demon's Souls and All-Star Destruction and The Medium... those games aren't on past-gen, so they are what we have to go off of as far as "game design around CPU and SSD of [next-gen]", but you tell me, are they really what you were imagining when you close your eyes and dream about what next-gen is supposed to look like? Do you think those games all make TLoU2 or Ghost of Tsushima look dated?

Point is, what we're seeing on the market and coming up, that is next-gen right now. It'll get better, but I don't think it's the past that's holding us up. It's just really hard to do things that have never been done before, even with better hardware to do it with.

Demon Souls to me personally looks better than Horizon, however that games a 1:1 remake so game design is stuck on PS3 generation. Ratchet and Clank also looks better than Horizon and with the portals it seems like something that cannot be done on a PS4. However it's not a franchise I care about I would have preferred a heavy hitter like God of War get that treatment and not a cartooney game. Destruction All-stars and Returnal are B Tier games made by smaller teams so we won't see the next gen potential in those smaller games. When Sony originally announced PS5 and said they believe in generations I expected to be blown away by their games from their own studios who better to show off what next gen hardware can do. I didn't expect that studuos like Santa Monica and the next Gran Turismo to have their proper next gen only games come out 5-7 years after PS5 release that's very disappointing. I understand like some postets have mentioned and replied to me here that this isn't a paradigm shift similar to SNES to N64. However I can already see the limitations from that Horizon gameplay video, I can see limitations of last gen game design of a character pressing a button to crawl through a tight gap so they can hide load times for the next area and create chunks of areas to make games run properly. When PS4 launched j was blown away by Killzone Shadowfall. Yes the game was awful but it was something that seemed wasn't possible on PS3, not only everything was sharper with better lighting but we have way more open spaces. With inFamous Second Son the draw distance was crazy in comparison to any PS3 game. After Cernys presentation I truly believed a faster SSD and CPU would affect how games were designed, smarter ai, more destruction and better physics, less game design masking loading. Fast travel and etc.

 

[assurdum]

Sony is selling their future for current profits.


If all games are aviable in better form on pc and in playable form on older consoles. Ps5 adoption is going to take a hit in the long run.

Playstation future is looking more and more like current xbox.

Yeah. In fact ps5 stop to sell after Sony announced crossgen exclusive and pc port.

 

[MatrixReloaded101]

And yet Horizon Forbidden West is the best looking game I've ever seen. Your point is moot.

After seeing Horizon FW, I am more open to the idea of cross gen also. But this will greatly limit the elements in these games because everything has to run smoothly on the OG PS4.

This really makes me think Sony is in trouble finically because this shows a lack of confidence in their ability to sell the PS5 and match the PS4 install base over time. Money is the only reason they would go this route with these big first party games.

 

[Termite]

I have no problem with Sony doing this but their PR around it has been absolutely terrible. If you bought a PS5 specifically for these games you were duped.

Personally, sticking with my PS4 Pro and picking up an Xbox Series X for Game Pass is looking like an absolutely ace move right now. I'll still get to play GoW, GT7, Horizon FW with the only caveat probably being shitty load times. And I can wait until the PS5 slim and avoid the monstrosity that is the PS5's design, and as a bonus I don't have to play the scalper/bot game.

Meanwhile I'm working through all the Xbox games I missed out on last gen on XSX at 4k 60ps for a tiny annual fee. Beautiful.

 

[Sushen]

No matter how you put it, it's a bummer. The wait continues. Hopefully by the end of next year, we'll get the taste of next gen.

 

[IntentionalPun]

Herman and Ryan speak like politicians, rather than just being frank like Sony were during early PS4

Nobody would have cared if they came out early and said “we will have a mix of exclusives and cross gen games”.

In fact I’d say they have been purposefully vague and misleading to the point that they even confuse themselves internally and have made multiple mistakes on their splash screens with al the “PS5 exclusive”, “console exclusive” etc rubbish

I don't disagree; the info was there, but the one-liners were targeted at recent statements from Microsoft and it read very politician like I don't disagree... it's not like they didn't see the reaction to that interview and know people were thinking it meant "no cross gen."

They also initially showed of MIles Morales and only mentioned PS5.. people believed it was next-gen only up until pretty near it's release....

They've always been sleazy fucks.. gamers have always fallen for it. But the info was there lol

We are talking about the company that was the king of all terrible DRM.. from rootkits in music CDs, to pushing Blu-Ray which was planned to require, get this.. an internet connection.. to being the only 1st party pushing "online passes" type deals for used games.. that started the PS4 gen w/ a viral video making fun of MS's DRM plans.. meanwhile many PS4 games they sold actually wouldn't have fully worked if you loaned them to a friend. And gamers ate it up.. praised them as being "for the gamers".. it was fucking hilarious lol

 

[Esppiral]

Does that make you feel any better or something? You still have no next-gen shit to play on that machine. Phil himself lied a lot, about timed-exclusives, “best launch line up ever” etc.

I do own a ps5 dude I am well served, thanks

 

[killatopak]

nani

 

[bender]

The price of backward compatibility.

Seriously though, I can understand the disappointment but also appreciate the realties. The best laid plans got curb stomped thanks to COVID. Global manufacturing isn't going to normal again until 2023 if we are lucky. That's going to slow the potential userbase for all platforms so why not leverage your existing userbase given the architectures are so similar? We've still seen some exclusive games (Returnal and Ratchet) but for tentpole releases, this benefits both the consumer that can't get a PS5 and helps offset development costs.

 

[e&e]

The character move through the scenarios quite fast. Would be a fucking mess on HDD hardware. Tons of hiccups to load the assets.

Right...

 

[IntentionalPun]

The amount of people acting like "oh yeah, that's expected" from both the GoW delay and the crossgen aspect are a lot of familiar names that said "wait until you see GoW" when Horizons was mentioned as crossgen. Somebody can go back and find the receipts. It happens EVERY time around here. Same group, same people. Same people who laughed and laughed and laughed when Sony gave the interview directly after MS said they would be supporting Xbox One for a few years. Now those same posters are like "wasn't this obvious"?

Then point these people out.. this is 100% NOT me.

I've never cared about the cross-gen thing... I've been arguing it's the most likely possibility for the last 2 years here, due to how much software dev has changed in the last decade.

I've always pointed out that Sony are kinda full of shit too...

I also think their products are great so it's "whatever" to me.. stop caring so much what sociopath CEOs say and enjoy the games.

Here's me saying practically the same shit in November 2017:

PlayStation 5 [OT] Taking Over The World One SSD At A Time

www.neogaf.com

I'm not here to defend Sony.. I just think you guys care way too much... and weren't really paying attention.

People cared too much when they initially laughed at Microsoft when Ryan said that generations crap and they care too much now. Sony are sleazy car salesmen, always have been... but they make great fucking cars lol

 

[sublimit]

Well, since nobody can buy a PS5, it make sense to not shackle their next big games to a very limited platform.

Yes but i'm pretty sure most of the people who intend to buy a PS5 will not buy those games for PS4 and wait until they can get their hands on a PS5. So i really don't know if it will be worth it.

 

[sunnysideup]

Yeah. In fact ps5 stop to sell after Sony announced crossgen exclusive and pc port.

I think ps5 adoption will be hurt in the long run if all games are available on pc and ps4. And with all xbox games on pc. A lot of people are going to stay on ps4 and then continue to pc instead of ps5.

Games sell hardware.

They are selling their future hardware sales for current profits.

 

[THEAP99]

It is really fucked up to think about Microsoft potentially having more next gen only games coming up than Sony.

 

[sncvsrtoip]

The price of backward compatibility.

Good point, to be honest now I'm not sure I like it but still we could get crossgen without bc

 

[Javthusiast]

GT7 was supposed to be pure...

It is purely gt sport with some ray tracing sprinkles on top.

 

[FunkMiller]

The point is not that Sony are making cross gen games.

It’s that they weren’t clear and upfront about it. They deliberately left out that major games like GoW would be cross gen, in order to sell more Ps5’s.

It‘s shady, underhand bullshit.

 

[VeganElduderino]

I'm a PS5 owner and in no way I'm upset by this. I don't know why fanboys are being so childish (as always, from all sides but for different reasons), I'm still going to play GoW, which is going to be a great title as usual, but with much better loadings, most likely 60fps, etc.

Just enjoy the damn games

Fuckin A brotha , you saved me from writing it

 

[Exanthus]

So Ratchet and Clank is the only true next gen game currently?

Edit: forgot returnal

 

[FunkMiller]

It is really fucked up to think about Microsoft potentially having more next gen only games coming up than Sony.

This isn’t true either. Microsoft’s games have to run on Xbox One.

BiTh companies are pretty much doing the exact same thing. Arguing one is better or worse than the other is pointless.

 

[killatopak]

I’m kinda fine with this since I don’t really plan on buying a PS5 until we get a slim/pro model but this must have sucked for PS5 owners expecting these games to be PS5 exclusives.

Jimbo please.

 

[bender]

Good point, to be honest now I'm not sure I like it but still we could get crossgen without bc

Similar architecture makes cross generation titles much, much easier though.

 

[ManaByte]

It’s that they weren’t clear and upfront about it. They deliberately left out that major games like GoW would be cross gen, in order to sell more Ps5’s.

It‘s shady, underhand bullshit.

They’re the market leader. It’s OK /s.

 

[FunkMiller]

I'm a PS5 owner and in no way I'm upset by this. I don't know why fanboys are being so childish (as always, from all sides but for different reasons), I'm still going to play GoW, which is going to be a great title as usual, but with much better loadings, most likely 60fps, etc.

Just enjoy the damn games

I’m a Ps5 owner - who wouldn’t have bothered with a Ps5 yet if I’d known all these games would be cross gen. The same reason I haven’t bought a Series X. I buy new hardware for new games I can’t play anywhere else. That was the case with every other Playstation generation... why the fuck should I give them a free pass for doing this bullshit this gen?

 

[assurdum]

I think ps5 adoption will be hurt in the long run if all games are available on pc and ps4. And with all xbox games on pc. A lot of people are going to stay on ps4 and then continue to pc instead of ps5.

Games sell hardware.

They are selling their future hardware sales for current profits.

I think you give too much credit to stuff like this. It won't affect the hardware sales in any manner.

 

[Zannrebel]

People really didn't read the Jim Ryan "we believe in generations" interview.

Here's a snippet:

Sony's Jim Ryan: “We are going to launch PS5 this holiday and we're going to launch globally"

"A great deal has happened since we last spoke. Terrible things happening in the world, which puts everything that you …

www.gamesindustry.biz

This is what he said after the infamous "We believe in generations" quote:



He clearly said they plan on supporting PS4 for a couple of years.. he indicated they ALSO want to focus on things only possible on PS5.. that could include just using the Dual Sense controller and/or 3D audio, which cross gen games certainly will.

We even have cross-gen games utilizing the SSD well like MIles Morales.

And some next-gen only games like Ratchet with a level design only feasibly on SSD.

It's a mix.. like they said it was going to be.

And the games at this point.. appear to be pretty fucking great, including cross-gen Horizon. And it will likely have features that can "only be enjoyed on PS5" like Ryan said.

You forgot a quote.

"You've seen our most striking console design yet, and you've seen games that can ONLY BE ENJOYED WITH THE PS5's FEATURES AND POWER. At PlayStation we believe in GENERATIONAL TRANSITIONS and we've put years of work to make them happen. We want you to see the unique benefits of moving from one generation to the next."

- June 11 2020 (PS5 The Future Of Gaming Event) SIE President and CEO Jim Ryan.

​

 

[Unknown?]

you guys owe me and Phil an apology.

last year i said crossing a generation takes a few years. Phil words got trolled non stop.

But no, you just believed the jimbo hype and made fun of the reality we spoke of.

Once you release ONE game let alone next gen only, sure.

 

[Hawke502]

Dis real?

yeah, go to 00:20

 

[bender]

I’m a Ps5 owner - who wouldn’t have bothered with a Ps5 yet if I’d known all these games would be cross gen. The same reason I haven’t bought a Series X. I buy new hardware for new games I can’t play anywhere else.

I can appreciate the perspective. I was going to stick with my One X until it died.

 

[Krappadizzle]

Damn, they straight up lied. Disappointed in Kaz/PD decision here.

Playstation'S exclusive. The 5 was a typo.

 

[IntentionalPun]

You forgot a quote.

"You've seen our most striking console design yet, and you've seen games that can ONLY BE ENJOYED WITH THE PS5's FEATURES AND POWER. At PlayStation we believe in GENERATIONAL TRANSITIONS and we've put years of work to make them happen. We want you to see the unique benefits of moving from one generation to the next."

- June 11 2020 (PS5 The Future Of Gaming Event) SIE President and CEO Jim Ryan.

That is definitely misleading, as was labeling all the games with PS5 and not mentioning PS4.

I was talking about their initial interview though.

See my other posts in this thread.. Sony is full of shit.. but the writing was on the wall. Need to read between the lines with them. That was their attempt at the "this is how you borrow PS5 games" viral video from last generation (which was also hillariously corny considering their history of terrible DRM.)

 

[reksveks]

It is really fucked up to think about Microsoft potentially having more next gen only games coming up than Sony.

This isn’t true either. Microsoft’s games have to run on Xbox One.

BiTh companies are pretty much doing the exact same thing. Arguing one is better or worse than the other is pointless.

If we are talking based off current announcements irrespective of release date, definitely might be the case. Flight Sim, Motorsport and most of the '22 Games (Avowed, Hellblade2) are set to be next gen only. I am sure that Sony has more unannounced first party games though.

 

[assurdum]

You forgot a quote.

"You've seen our most striking console design yet, and you've seen games that can ONLY BE ENJOYED WITH THE PS5's FEATURES AND POWER. At PlayStation we believe in GENERATIONAL TRANSITIONS and we've put years of work to make them happen. We want you to see the unique benefits of moving from one generation to the next."

- June 11 2020 (PS5 The Future Of Gaming Event) SIE President and CEO Jim Ryan.

​

Go back to play on PS4 and tell me you don't have any uniques beneficial to play the same new games on ps5.

 

[Termite]

The one thing I think people don't take into account enough is that when you compare the userbase on last-gen machines to next-gen machines, most of the actual active purchasers move to the next-gen machines very quickly.

There may be 120m PS4's out there but there aren't 120m PS4 users ready and willing to purchase the newest games. Many of them are lapsed users, or price-conscious users, or users only interested in a certain genre niche etc. Whereas almost every next-gen owner is an early-adopter hungry for any new first-party "event" games.

In that way, an userbase of 80m on PS4 could have the same active audience as userbase of 8m on PS5 (figures entirely invented). It would be interesting to see what the sales figures for Miles Morales were because that was cross-gen and the userbase at that time was probably 120m to 3-4m. And yet I bet the PS5 sold a similar amount of copies, or at least a competitive amount. Wish I had the figures to tell.

 

[JLB]

As long as PS5 is the focus of development that makes sense. Make the game for the PS5 and pare it back to work with PS4. Works for PC.

If you were in the “we believe in generations” you would have been tagged as an xbot for saying this.

 

[sunnysideup]

I think you give too much credit to stuff like this. It won't affect the hardware sales in any manner.

I think you give to little credit.

In 2-3 years any piece of shit toaster level pc will be able ps5 games as well as ps5 can.

A rinky dink laptop will play all ps5 games and all xbox games. The shift from consoles to pc this gen is going to be tremendous.

I wonder if playstation can bounce back if that happens.

 

[Negotiator101]

 

[Umbasaborne]

Damn, they straight up lied. Disappointed in Kaz/PD decision here.

Lying is how Jim Lyin got his last name

 

[Zannrebel]

This isn’t true either. Microsoft’s games have to run on Xbox One.

BiTh companies are pretty much doing the exact same thing. Arguing one is better or worse than the other is pointless.

They do not, the only cross gen titles confirmed are halo infinite and pyconauts 2. Forza horizon 5 too most likely but thats not announced.

 

[assurdum]

I think you give to little credit.

In 2-3 years any piece of shit toaster level pc will be able ps5 games as well as ps5 can.

A rinky dink laptop will play all ps5 games and all xbox games. The shift from consoles to pc this gen is going to be tremendous.

I wonder if playstation can bounce back if that happens.

How many times we heard this thing? Honest question: where you ever seen all those gamers migrate on masses on pc after MS released their exclusives also on pc?

 

[Umbasaborne]

Again make new games cost tons of money, ps5 has a small userbase and people as you pretend to not use crossgen or pc port to get more revenues because it's unfair. If you want more new games, that's the "compromise".

They shouldnt have advertised those new games as ps5 exclusive then.

 

[Negotiator101]

Again make new games cost tons of money, ps5 has a small userbase and people as you pretend to not use crossgen or pc port to get more revenues because it's unfair. If you want more new games, that's the "compromise".

Crazy how your opinion changes when PS are involved were you so understanding when Microsoft said the same thing ages ago I wonder?

 

[daclynk]

This is creepy as fuck

 

[Papacheeks]

I’m a Ps5 owner - who wouldn’t have bothered with a Ps5 yet if I’d known all these games would be cross gen. The same reason I haven’t bought a Series X. I buy new hardware for new games I can’t play anywhere else. That was the case with every other Playstation generation... why the fuck should I give them a free pass for doing this bullshit this gen?

Sorry i have a hard time believing you. To each their own, but after booting up a PS5 and not seeing loading screens and the feedback from the controller its hard to go back to my PS4PRO.

I don't feel they lied, they just like you said were not as upfront as maybe they could have been like Microsoft was, but my issue with Microsoft is they showed you nothing in why a series x is worth it at least at launch.

But in terms of what they sold you? I believe they sold us expierences that are only realized 100% on PS5 hardware controller included.

I think the disconnect and the reason so many people are angry who half of them dont even have a PS5, is because of in general the marketing drove home "Only on PS5" and Covid in my opinion was the wrench that was thrown in that made it so even if they wanted to just focus on PS5, they legistcally couldn't.

I mean i agree their messaging hopefully is better, but what they sold me I don't think they lied to me on the expierence I am getting.

 

[FIREKNIGHT2029]

Yeah, GT7 will melt your eyeballs alright.

This is from the reveal trailer and I say it again... I am actually surprised that anyone believed that this wasn't a cross gen game. Low res textures, low poly trees and NPCs, no ambient occlusion... the grass/foliage is laughable. That scene from the reveal trailer (at 30 seconds mark btw) looks like a better PS3 game.

That trailer is old as fuck WIP tho' and was put together quickly for their presentation. I doubt the final game comes out with trees and textures looking that rough.

I'd wait to see more recent footage before declaring anything.

 

[FunkMiller]

They do not, the only cross gen titles confirmed are halo infinite and pyconauts 2. Forza horizon 5 too most likely but thats not announced.

What are you talking about? Unless they’ve made an announcement to the contrary, Xbox first party ganes are made to run on XBox One upwards, and PC.