Support NeoGAF

[Neo_game]

How so? They couldn't sell enough PS3 and so Sony lost all their profits from PS1 and 2. Just managed to scrap past 360 and that was after all their xb1.5 calling tactics.

You know right, Microsoft lost billions of $ due to RROD fiasco ?
https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2015-07-02-peter-moore-recounts-xbox-360-red-ring-of-death-saga

I think 360 actual number would not be more 60million as many owner had to buy the console multiple number of times.

As far as PS5 price goes. I can't see it more than 500$.

 

[SlimySnake]

Well they could easily say ps5: worlds fastest consoles for marketing stuff its easily understood by consumers and its a true statement.

Except that MS is already claiming they have the fastest, most powerful console. Of course they are lying about it, but thats MS for you.

 

[Jigsaah]

Well they were probably planing to do it in a big live event with many devs but that is screwed now.so either they wait and do it that way in 2 months or they do it online .

If the controller is any clue, the PS5 is gonna be sexy as hell. I just wanna see it already. I think it's gonna be white and sapphire blue. Dodge Viper.

 

[SlimySnake]

The OP quotes:

"The biggest impact from COVID 19 is on the reveal of PS5, not production or release".

again, my question is how does COVID 19 affect the reveal of the console for Sony when it obviously hasn't affected the reveal for Microsoft?

I shouldn't say this is bs...but I would like to know specifically how this is taking place.

I thought you were talking about manufacturing since thats the crux of the article.

dont think anyone is saying covid19 wont affect the reveal of xbox. im sure they will be doing their e3 event digitally. It's just that MS had already said they would be doing an E3 presentation where as Sony dropped out before the covid 19 lockdowns. It seems Sony had an event planned that was cancelled and now they are trying to figure out how to do that reveal just like MS.

 

[Jigga117]

Except that MS is already claiming they have the fastest, most powerful console. Of course they are lying about it, but thats MS for you.

?

 

[SlimySnake]

?

 

[DrAspirino]

Apparantly poor people think it's much cheaper at 499 than at 500.

It's not just poor people. It's a psychological trick to make a figure subconciously appear cheaper than it really is. Obviously, when you think for 1 second, you see the trick, but there are people that doesn't even take the second and see that number closer to 400 than 500.

 

[Agnostic2020]

To be fair they always say fastest most powerful xbox . I m sure if sony wants to use worlds fastest console like their job postings they will.

 

[Moogle11]

I’ll probably wait a while in any case. Last gen the consoles didn’t have enough exclusives to really be worth it for probably a year and a half or so anyway.

It will be a bit tough if something I really want to play like Horizon 2 is a launch/launch window title and not cross gen, but a console isn’t worth it for one exclusive—much less if stock is limited and a hassle to find one to buy. If anything I’ll likely just upgrade my PC and be satisfied with better versions of multiplats and MS games (along with my Switch) to keep busy for a bit into next gen and buy in when more exclusives are out, any hardware kinks may have been fixed, maybe more color options available and probably some better deals, sales or bundles.

Also probably better to prioritizing a 4k tv first as well.

 

[Jigsaah]

I thought you were talking about manufacturing since thats the crux of the article.

dont think anyone is saying covid19 wont affect the reveal of xbox. im sure they will be doing their e3 event digitally. It's just that MS had already said they would be doing an E3 presentation where as Sony dropped out before the covid 19 lockdowns. It seems Sony had an event planned that was cancelled and now they are trying to figure out how to do that reveal just like MS.

Wait, people don't consider the Xbox revealed yet? I mean we know what it looks like, the specs, the controller...I mean how is this not considered revealed already? I mean people have taken the damn thing apart.

 

[Entroyp]

$499 seems like a fair price to me. Now let me preorder the damn thing.

 

[Sosokrates]

And in real-world use, most people will not be able to see "that" much of a difference in resolution that's 15% different. Especially if the game is running at native 4K on the XSX and 1800p with CBR to 4K on the PS5.

You could the same with the X1 @ 900p and the ps4 @ 1080p.
Some People still like to have the better visuals.

Its the same shit as last time you have people saying its not that big of deal, so dont talk about it and you have people who point out that some people do appreciate the res bump.
I think both stances are true, I was never putting these things into question.

Iwill just call out anu downplaying or upplaying of spec differences.

 

[Jigga117]

Based on specs I don’t see how this is a lie. Your comparing ONE spec being the SSD vs the overall console and you accuse MS of lying. The same MS that has been open about their console vs name announcement, last minute edit to Game developers conference video and controller. Yet no introduction of the console itself. MS has been consistent and people say this is some alternative strategy Sony is doing.......okay.

 

[SlimySnake]

Based on specs I don’t see how this is a lie. Your comparing ONE spec being the SSD vs the overall console and you accuse MS of lying. The same MS that has been open about their console vs name announcement, last minute edit to Game developers conference video and controller. Yet no introduction of the console itself. MS has been consistent and people say this is some alternative strategy Sony is doing.......okay.

Fastest how? Their GPU clocks are lower than the PS5. Their SSD speeds are lower. They have a slight 0.1 ghz advantage in CPU clocks and RAM bandwidth, but that doesnt make it the fastest console.

If it's not a lie, it's BS marketing. Their console is more powerful, but not fastest by any means.

 

[Jigga117]

Fastest how? Their GPU clocks are lower than the PS5. Their SSD speeds are lower. They have a slight 0.1 ghz advantage in CPU clocks and RAM bandwidth, but that doesnt make it the fastest console.

If it's not a lie, it's BS marketing. Their console is more powerful, but not fastest by any means.

Are you seriously basing it on that????
Wow

so a Mustang GT is faster than a C8 Corvette. The logic is AMAZING

 

[Agnostic2020]

Based on specs I don’t see how this is a lie. Your comparing ONE spec being the SSD vs the overall console and you accuse MS of lying. The same MS that has been open about their console vs name announcement, last minute edit to Game developers conference video and controller. Yet no introduction of the console itself. MS has been consistent and people say this is some alternative strategy Sony is doing.......okay.

Well ps5 is the faster console in every sense. ssd is faster also Ps5 gpu is even faster than xsx gpu due to much higher clocks . So yeah ps5 is the faster console.

 

[Agnostic2020]

Are you seriously basing it on that????
Wow

Wow what ? He is 100% factually correct

 

[Sosokrates]

The thing is...the difference really is negligible. It ranges from 2.25% to 16% at most in the XSX's favor in regard to all but one aspect of GPU performance (as is shown in my calculations) and possibly 23.28% in regard to the one remaining aspect of GPU performance (rasterization) in the PS5's favor. So, I don't see why people are arguing that the XSX has HUGE advantages when its advantages are small and are accompanied by a disadvantage (rasterization).

I never said the XsX has a huge advantage, but its not nothing either, I ve already said it will result in about 15% res advantage or, higher RT setting or 10% better fps. Also the ps5 does not have a rasterization advantage over the XsX.
On RDNA2 the benefit of a clockspeed over 1800mhz diminishes rapidly.
Raytracing has the biggest advantage on the XsX because of it has 44% more CU's, that is 44% morr RT hardware, the PS5s varible clock advantage may close the gap by a few percent but for RT above 1800mhz is going to see very small improvements.

 

[Classicrockfan]

Just waiting for that bestbuy preorder to go live.

 

[GiJoint]

Except that MS is already claiming they have the fastest, most powerful console. Of course they are lying about it, but thats MS for you.

Well...they do. There’s no shame in that.

 

[SlimySnake]

Are you seriously basing it on that????
Wow

so a Mustang GT is faster than a C8 Corvette. The logic is AMAZING

 

[frogger]

If both PS5 and XSX are $500 at launch, no way I am buying PS5 at launch.

 

[Agnostic2020]

Lol god only knows what he is talking about

 

[geordiemp]

Well, not just higher cooling costs. They also have a more expensive controller (See the coretech video) and a heavily customized, far more powerful SSD. See my post above.

Whatever the pricing of the RDNA2 card will be, it will affect sony and ms the same. The silicon for the PS4 and Xbox One cost Sony and MS $100 and $110 each. MS paid more because theirs was slightly bigger at around 35mm2 more. The difference should be the same this time around with how much I/O stuff sony has cramed in there.

if you think the APUs will be such small differences then I dont know what to tell you.

Both APUs have IO stuff, so your logic is biased, just becasue they have 12 vs 8 lines to their SSD ? Really ?

You think Sony thought they would save 10 bucks going toa 36 CU APU.

LOL you are miles off.

 

[SlimySnake]

Wow what ? He is 100% factually correct

See, this is what I am talking about when i talk about Cerny choosing SSD over tflops. Its a poor decision because of people like this guy and most people in general too dumb to realize what tech specs do. They spent a gen teaching everyone to care about tflops, and now its gonna come back to bite them in the ass because people like jigga here simply dont know what any of this means.

 

[Jigga117]

Wow what ? He is 100% factually correct

You all can’t seriously think that way based on that over certain numbers.Then say it is faster. I guess we will see but I find it funny how we know things when it comes to PC and building them and somehow we are only going off certainspecs and that makes it faster because this or that number is higher but overall the system is less powerful. If all we are talking about is possible loading Games faster I may understand but claiming now the system is faster based on the overall specs not seeing it

 

[Sosokrates]

And the X one X is 43% stronger than the PS4 Pro. The PS4 Pro one has the most impressive games.

I really dont understand replys like these, they dont disprove what im saying.

I mean why did sony even go for 10tflops why not 8tflops?, i bet there exclusives would still look some of the best.

I think its best people just accept the XsX has a hardware advantage which is not insignificant and move on.

 

[frogger]

Fastest how? Their GPU clocks are lower than the PS5. Their SSD speeds are lower. They have a slight 0.1 ghz advantage in CPU clocks and RAM bandwidth, but that doesnt make it the fastest console.

If it's not a lie, it's BS marketing. Their console is more powerful, but not fastest by any means.

If the SSD could spin, it will spin fast enough to generate two extra teraflops.

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

I think your barking up the wrong tree. ?

More likely the RDNA2 APU from AMD is more than the estimated costs people have used for 5700 die costs.

Remember RDNA2 is 50 % more efficient than RDNA1 per watt and from the presentation by AMD they suggested it was part EUV (probably critical layers). No way AMD and TSMC selling that APU cheaply, EUV is astronomical litho costs.

So the APUs are probably the bigger cost than airmchair analysts think, and will affect Ps5, XSX and Lockart by their respective die sizes equally.

My bet is Ps5 $ 500, XSX US$ 600, Lockart US$ 400.

Good points. But using EUV for only critical layers rather than the whole chip would still be cheaper than going full EUV for all the layers, right? And we don't know exactly what deals MS and Sony have with AMD on the wafers, though I assume this wouldn't mean much for AMD when going to the fabs for wafer production (unless by some chance MS and/or Sony are paying AMD to cover the cost on the wafer production at the fabs in exchange for some big discounts after first few million or whatever).

MSRP-wise I always felt PS5 could go for $499 and be good. MS have said they want XSX to be competitive in price with PS5 so I doubt it'll be $599; $599 at most but I could see them going for $499 and eating the losses. Honestly I don't think Lockhart should even come out but I don't want to get into that right now (and none of that has to do with the unfounded thoughts that Lockhart would hold XSX back, which have been debunked numerous times. IMO it doesn't make business sense anymore and it'll eat into XSX production budgets, etc.).

Fastest how? Their GPU clocks are lower than the PS5. Their SSD speeds are lower. They have a slight 0.1 ghz advantage in CPU clocks and RAM bandwidth, but that doesnt make it the fastest console.

If it's not a lie, it's BS marketing. Their console is more powerful, but not fastest by any means.

Technically speaking TFs are a measure of computational throughput per second, with 'second' being a unit of time, which is linear. Since it's a measurement of time (and time is a linear measurement, i.e it always moves forward at a constant rate of measure and scale), technically whatever produces more per second can claim to be faster, so calling XSX the "fastest console" in that matter isn't actually lying or stretching the truth.

But really, none of that should matter because these are marketing buzzwords meant to catch people's attention. They don't have much worth outside of that.

 

[Sosokrates]

See, this is what I am talking about when i talk about Cerny choosing SSD over tflops. Its a poor decision because of people like this guy and most people in general too dumb to realize what tech specs do. They spent a gen teaching everyone to care about tflops, and now its gonna come back to bite them in the ass because people like jigga here simply dont know what any of this means.

Indeed, they have no choice to go this route, they have lost the tflop battle.

 

[mckmas8808]

You could the same with the X1 @ 900p and the ps4 @ 1080p.
Some People still like to have the better visuals.

Its the same shit as last time you have people saying its not that big of deal, so dont talk about it and you have people who point out that some people do appreciate the res bump.
I think both stances are true, I was never putting these things into question.

Iwill just call out anu downplaying or upplaying of spec differences.

A 31% difference in resolution from 1080p is bigger and more noticeable, than a 15% resolution difference from 4K. Plus I remember people making a bigger deal of the extra $100 price between the Xbox One and the PS4, than the better GPU.

 

[frogger]

I mean why did sony even go for 10tflops why not 8tflops?, i bet there exclusives would still look some of the best.

I think its best people just accept the XsX has a hardware advantage which is not insignificant and move on.

Because there is no other logical way.

 

[Sosokrates]

Fastest how? Their GPU clocks are lower than the PS5. Their SSD speeds are lower. They have a slight 0.1 ghz advantage in CPU clocks and RAM bandwidth, but that doesnt make it the fastest console.

If it's not a lie, it's BS marketing. Their console is more powerful, but not fastest by any means.

From a marketing standpoint MS could say they have the fastest, they have the faster cpu and ram afterall, from a legal standpoint either one could say they are the fastest.

 

[Agnostic2020]

You all can’t seriously think that way based on that over certain numbers.Then say it is faster. I guess we will see but I find it funny how we know things when it comes to PC and building them and somehow we are only going off certainspecs and that makes it faster because this or that number is higher but overall the system is less powerful. If all we are talking about is possible loading Games faster I may understand but claiming now the system is fast based on the overall specs not seeing it

bro U r all over the place . I do not know what to say . Xsx has the slower,wider but more powerful gpu. Dont know why u think a more powerfull gpu has to mean it is also faster. Xsx is slower than ps5.but more powerful by 18% .

 

[Bladed Thesis]

The limited supplies and worry from Bloomberg is a nothing burger.

It's mainstream media talking about video games. Are we shocked they are talking out their ass for clicks?

 

[Sosokrates]

A 31% difference in resolution from 1080p is bigger and more noticeable, than a 15% resolution difference from 4K. Plus I remember people making a bigger deal of the extra $100 price between the Xbox One and the PS4, than the better GPU.

Well thats a matter of opinion, like its your opinion that the difference between 1800p and 2160p is negligible.

 

[geordiemp]

Good points. But using EUV for only critical layers rather than the whole chip would still be cheaper than going full EUV for all the layers, right? And we don't know exactly what deals MS and Sony have with AMD on the wafers, though I assume this wouldn't mean much for AMD when going to the fabs for wafer production (unless by some chance MS and/or Sony are paying AMD to cover the cost on the wafer production at the fabs in exchange for some big discounts after first few million or whatever).

MSRP-wise I always felt PS5 could go for $499 and be good. MS have said they want XSX to be competitive in price with PS5 so I doubt it'll be $599; $599 at most but I could see them going for $499 and eating the losses. Honestly I don't think Lockhart should even come out but I don't want to get into that right now (and none of that has to do with the unfounded thoughts that Lockhart would hold XSX back, which have been debunked numerous times. IMO it doesn't make business sense anymore and it'll eat into XSX production budgets, etc.).

EUV is an astronomical investment in Lithography process, to get that 50 % perf / watt to pay back the massive investment by TSMC ........AMD and TSMC will have wanted almost 50 % more than RDNA1 per wafer is my thoughts.

You factor that into the APU prices over 5700 and maybe the Ps5 and XSX and Lockart will make more sense IMO and why decsions were made.

IF RDNA2 is cheap then Ps5 die and narrow and fast makes no logic sense I agree.

 

[Jigga117]

See, this is what I am talking about when i talk about Cerny choosing SSD over tflops. Its a poor decision because of people like this guy and most people in general too dumb to realize what tech specs do. They spent a gen teaching everyone to care about tflops, and now its gonna come back to bite them in the ass because people like jigga here simply dont know what any of this means.

First of all I am retired Air Force network admin. Build computers all my life and READ. I don’t blindly follow one individual or a company. I can have this discussion and still play the PS5 when it releases and enjoy games I like. You can sit there on your phone, tablet or computer and seriously try and use a couple of specs makes the system faster and ignore software and hardware we know about and other info we yet to get.

 

[SlimySnake]

if you think the APUs will be such small differences then I dont know what to tell you.

Both APUs have IO stuff, so your logic is biased

You think Sony thouight they would save 10 bucks going toa 36 CU APU.

LOL you are miles off.

CUs dont take up much space. A dual CU in RDNA is less than 5mm2. a 7nm+ dual CU should be even less than that. 40% more CUs is basically 40-50mm2. MS has i/o but Sony's i/o is far more extensive. we know MS is at 360mm2. Sony isnt going to come under 300mm2. thats impossible.

They dont have cache scrubbers built into the GPU. They have SRAM and an i/o coprocessor from what i understand, Sony has an extra one and their decompression block is far more advanced and bigger. Same goes for their DMA controller. Their audio chip is the same size as a CU. We are looking at 35mm2 gap between the two max. perhaps even less. You pay for the silicon, not the tech in it.

And thats just the GPU, their ssd will be more expensive simply because of how powerful it is. Their Custom flash controller is going to be more expensive.

I dont think you know how any of this works.

 

[JimboJones]

From a marketing standpoint MS could say they have the fastest, they have the faster cpu and ram afterall, from a legal standpoint either one could say they are the fastest.

Yup, technically they are the fastest in some sense but so is Sony in another.
Just marketing doing their job.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

So.... $500 US for next gen consoles = $700 Cdn = $800 with tax (Ontario is 13%) + add a few starting games = $1,000 Cdn

Wow.

 

[mckmas8808]

Well thats a matter of opinion, like its your opinion that the difference between 1800p and 2160p is negligible.

Exactly! And my opinion will be shared by "most" people. You can look at DF's articles and YouTube videos and see the difference 1800p and 4K games. It's not "THAT" noticeable.

 

[Sosokrates]

Yup, technically they are the fastest in some sense but so is Sony in another.
Just marketing doing their job.

I would not be surprised if ms use the term "Fastest, Most powerful console in the world"

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

CUs dont take up much space. A dual CU in RDNA is less than 5mm2. a 7nm+ dual CU should be even less than that. 40% more CUs is basically 40-50mm2. MS has i/o but Sony's i/o is far more extensive. we know MS is at 360mm2. Sony isnt going to come under 300mm2. thats impossible.

They dont have cache scrubbers built into the GPU. They have SRAM and an i/o coprocessor from what i understand, Sony has an extra one and their decompression block is far more advanced and bigger. Same goes for their DMA controller. Their audio chip is the same size as a CU. We are looking at 35mm2 gap between the two max. perhaps even less. You pay for the silicon, not the tech in it.

And thats just the GPU, their ssd will be more expensive simply because of how powerful it is. Their Custom flash controller is going to be more expensive.

I dont think you know how any of this works.

You're working off a lot of assumptions here when MS haven't even gone into divulging everything in regards the I/O setup or even the GPU modifications. While they don't have cache scrubbers, "cache scrubbers" are basically memory scrubbers, which is nothing new in the computing space. Memory scrubbing has been a thing since the 1980s.

MS have added ECC detection to their GDDR6 memory which is effectively the same memory-scrubbing concept in practice, just at the DRAM level rather than SRAM one.

EDIT: Also regarding the SRAM in the memory controller of PS5, that's their way of going aside from using a DRAM cache, and the SRAM cache is not very big at all. I would venture between 4 - 8 MB, *maybe* 16 or 32 MB being generous. I'd assume it's there to add more granularity of NAND data chunks for GPU access if things need to be granulated lower than the page level for streaming of the data to the GPU.

EUV is an astronomical investment in Lithography process, to get that 50 % perf / watt to pay back the massive investment by TSMC ........AMD and TSMC will have wanted almost 50 % more than RDNA1 per wafer is my thoughts.

You factor that into the APU prices over 5700 and maybe the Ps5 and XSX and Lockart will make more sense IMO and why decsions were made.

IF RDNA2 is cheap then Ps5 die and narrow and fast makes no logic sense I agree.

Interesting. Well in any case, I hope MS and Sony don't price the systems TOO high. They're gonna have peripherals, games and subscription services to recoup any losses, so I don't see the point in a $550 PS5 or $600 XSX even if their BOMs may be pushing them somewhat close to those prices.

 

[Sosokrates]

Exactly! And my opinion will be shared by "most" people. You can look at DF's articles and YouTube videos and see the difference 1800p and 4K games. It's not "THAT" noticeable.

I never said it would not.
People said the same about the X1s 900p. But people still find value in the console with more power and it has value from a marketing stand point.

 

[JimboJones]

I would not be surprised if ms use the term "Fastest, Most powerful console in the world"

Brings me back to the OG Xbox days when it launched.

 

[Adam_802]

lmaoooooooo

 

[Agnostic2020]

First of all I am retired Air Force network admin. Build computers all my life and READ. I don’t blindly follow one individual or a company. I can have this discussion and still play the PS5 when it releases and enjoy games I like. You can sit there on your phone, tablet or computer and seriously try and use a couple of specs makes the system faster and ignore software and hardware we know about and other info we yet to get.

If you are a tech person You need to watch the road to ps5 to understand why ps5 is the gaster console . For fuck sake cerny has allocated biggest chunk of apu for an io to ensure the system.is the fastest we have ever seen.

I suggest u watch it. Its interesting for tech heads

 

[SlimySnake]

First of all I am retired Air Force network admin. Build computers all my life and READ. I don’t blindly follow one individual or a company. I can have this discussion and still play the PS5 when it releases and enjoy games I like. You can sit there on your phone, tablet or computer and seriously try and use a couple of specs makes the system faster and ignore software and hardware we know about and other info we yet to get.

And I am a Software Architect. Means nothing when we are discussing specs of a console we did not help design or build. The way you replied to me was abrupt, flippant and bizarre, and left me with no choice but to assume you are a fanboy.

As for me, check out what Im going through in the next gen speculation thread. im being accused of being a MS fanboy spreading FUD.

lets try this again. Fastest means either fastest clocks or fastest read/write speeds. if MS wants to say they have the fastest console because their CPU is 3.6 ghz compared to PS5's 3.5 ghz gpu then technically they would be correct, but we all know it's BS because Sony has fastest GPU clocks and fastest SSD speeds.

 

[WorldHero]

If Series X launches at the same price, things could get interesting very quick.