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'We believe in generations:' PlayStation argues cross-gen games risk stifling innovation

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Grinchy

Banned
This is kinda shitty. Going out of your way to talk up the benefits of a new generation knowing one of your biggest games is cross-gen.

On the flip side, at least when everyone saw Horizon, some said it looked amazing, some said it was CGI that was "captured on a PS5" as a lie, and no one expected it was cross-gen at all. It annoys me that it is, but I guess we can be excited for the next-gen games like Demon's Souls and what will be coming down the road.
 
tenor.png
At lease, Sony still has great studios:
marvels-spider-man-miles-morales-gameplay-demo-ps5-6-37-screenshot_feature.jpg


It's just that we get a PS4 PRO PRO instead of a PS5 now (kudos to MS for being more straight forward about it on their side).
 
I mean, I expect Demon's Souls to be among the best games ever made, it looks absolutely incredible and I'm a huge Souls fan. Some of the games you mentioned look like glorified tech demos or walking sims. Scorn has a cool Giger aesthetic but the gameplay doesn't look impressive. BMI just looks like a shinier Shadow Warrior. Okay, I looked up Exo-Mecha, this is my first time seeing it... that looks like my jam honestly... like fuck that looks good. Okay, you scored 1 point on me. I still think they're all going to sell less and get lower Meta scores than the PS5 equivalents, though that's more a general argument than personal preference.

I don't see how BMI or Exo-Mecha are walking sims? This sounds a bit like an exaggerated insult usually directed at some Sony exclusives and flip it onto some confirmed Series games. The closest to a walking sim out of any of the games mentioned would probably be The Medium, which is also coming to PS5. But I'm sure that game will have some action elements to it as well.

The only gameplay we have of Scorn is from a few years ago, not too much in terms of updates. I don't know what you're expecting a game that takes inspiration from Alien - a slow, methodical, slow-burn of a scifi-horror classic -to be like but something that's guns akimbo and bang bang bang! would obviously not be it. The game may not look engaging for you personally but for people who love first-person adventure/puzzle-style games with some action in them (within healthy doses), it should be up their alley especially if they did the Giger-style aesthetic.

I don't agree that BMI is "just" a shinier Shadow Warrior, by that notion we can go back and call any modern FPS a prettier version of DOS DOOM, or Castle Wolfenstien, or Quake etc. The foundational template for FPS games hasn't really changed all that much since the '90s and in some ways FPS games are simpler than they used to be (less intricate level/map designs for example) in order to appeal to a wider demographic. What should matter is that a game looks fun, and that's what BMI looked like to me at the May event. Seems it looked that way for a lot of other people, too. Same goes for Exo-Mecha which seems you actually dig, so it's cool to see more people look into some of these lesser-known games (hoping to hear more news on that one soon, myself).

Truth be told I would not be surprised if those games I mentioned get lower scores than Miles Morales or R&C, and I definitely won't be surprised if they sell less (because they likely will sell less). But I don't think it's healthy to measure a game's value solely on Metacritic scores or unit sales, especially of late since we've seen some seemingly massive AAA games cause very strong divides between critics and gamers. Not every game needs to move multi-millions of copies to recoup costs and be profitable, for example.

We should also be aware that sometimes games just get reviewers who are a bad fit for them; I'm reminded of the oodles of "game reviewers" who couldn't even get past the easy parts of Cuphead, for example, which probably reflected the content of their reviews even if they probably gave it a high score just to "ride the wave" and not bring negative backlash to their reviews with a low score.

There's just as much peer-pressure influence in review circles as anywhere else in society so I wouldn't be surprised if the tone of reviews by and large are dictated by high-up sources who put out the initial scores, places like your IGNs or whatever. And while this would probably take things into a whole other topic, I think we should also be realistic and know that there's a good deal of politics and money on the line with these mainstream reviews, too, especially for certain AAA games. Reviewers don't want to lose their perks from platform holders and publishers, among other things.

Those are main reasons why I'd say regardless of how some of these games score, using MC- and ONLY MC (or just raw sales numbers)-as a way to ding them isn't for the best. It's like saying a movie like Tenet (which I recently saw and found fun/interesting...need to watch it again to piece things together tho lol) isn't as good as Captain Marvel because CM earned over $1 billion at the BO.

People also shouldn't have the ridiculous notion a game needs to be 90+ or else it's trash; I guess because of so many factors that skew modern reviews in ways dictated aside from the actual game quality this is why people hold on to this notion, but in a more honest industry we'd be seeing some of these massive AAA games cutting closer to mid-upper 70s to high 80s and just a very minute few hitting into the '90s let alone above that.

I’m going to link to myself back in May, saw the writing in the wall back then.


And now watch every single "gaming tech site" that tore MS a new anus for cross-gen support, suddenly not mention it anymore, nor do the same to Sony for having a lot more (somewhat surprising IMHO, after their earlier messaging) cross-gen 1st-party than expected.

I won't even be surprised if they somehow start arguing in favor of cross-gen now that it seems Sony is going a lot with that strategy, and tear MS yet another new anus for only having Halo Infinite as a cross-gen title now :LOL: .

Honestly, most "gaming" media sites suck complete ass. No professionalism whatsoever.
 
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I don't see how BMI or Exo-Mecha are walking sims? This sounds a bit like an exaggerated insult usually directed at some Sony exclusives and flip it onto some confirmed Series games. The closest to a walking sim out of any of the games mentioned would probably be The Medium, which is also coming to PS5. But I'm sure that game will have some action elements to it as well.

If you read my post it's clear I didn't mean BMI or Exo-Mecha with that comment.

The only gameplay we have of Scorn is from a few years ago, not too much in terms of updates. I don't know what you're expecting a game that takes inspiration from Alien - a slow, methodical, slow-burn of a scifi-horror classic -to be like but something that's guns akimbo and bang bang bang! would obviously not be it. The game may not look engaging for you personally but for people who love first-person adventure/puzzle-style games with some action in them (within healthy doses), it should be up their alley especially if they did the Giger-style aesthetic.

Exciting argument, some people are all about Bugsnax, too.

I don't agree that BMI is "just" a shinier Shadow Warrior, by that notion we can go back and call any modern FPS a prettier version of DOS DOOM, or Castle Wolfenstien, or Quake etc. The foundational template for FPS games hasn't really changed all that much since the '90s and in some ways FPS games are simpler than they used to be (less intricate level/map designs for example) in order to appeal to a wider demographic. What should matter is that a game looks fun, and that's what BMI looked like to me at the May event. Seems it looked that way for a lot of other people, too. Same goes for Exo-Mecha which seems you actually dig, so it's cool to see more people look into some of these lesser-known games (hoping to hear more news on that one soon, myself).

No, it literally looks like Shadow Warrior to me.

Truth be told I would not be surprised if those games I mentioned get lower scores than Miles Morales or R&C, and I definitely won't be surprised if they sell less (because they likely will sell less). But I don't think it's healthy to measure a game's value solely on Metacritic scores or unit sales, especially of late since we've seen some seemingly massive AAA games cause very strong divides between critics and gamers. Not every game needs to move multi-millions of copies to recoup costs and be profitable, for example.

I don't disagree with this but that's not the way other people are handling this argument.

We should also be aware that sometimes games just get reviewers who are a bad fit for them; I'm reminded of the oodles of "game reviewers" who couldn't even get past the easy parts of Cuphead, for example, which probably reflected the content of their reviews even if they probably gave it a high score just to "ride the wave" and not bring negative backlash to their reviews with a low score.

There was definitely the one guy who couldn't pass the tutorial. I'm no fan of game reviewers, I'm speaking to the idea of how big these games will be, who has the "big" launch line-up, it's all nonsense but it is the terms people are arguing in, Demons Souls doesn't look good because it's "just a remake", Miles Morales doesn't look good because it's "just an expansion" so I countered with "your games are indie tech demos and walking sims that won't score or sell as much"

There's just as much peer-pressure influence in review circles as anywhere else in society so I wouldn't be surprised if the tone of reviews by and large are dictated by high-up sources who put out the initial scores, places like your IGNs or whatever. And while this would probably take things into a whole other topic, I think we should also be realistic and know that there's a good deal of politics and money on the line with these mainstream reviews, too, especially for certain AAA games. Reviewers don't want to lose their perks from platform holders and publishers, among other things.

I mean, yeah... but that's all to my point.

Those are main reasons why I'd say regardless of how some of these games score, using MC- and ONLY MC (or just raw sales numbers)-as a way to ding them isn't for the best. It's like saying a movie like Tenet (which I recently saw and found fun/interesting...need to watch it again to piece things together tho lol) isn't as good as Captain Marvel because CM earned over $1 billion at the BO.

People also shouldn't have the ridiculous notion a game needs to be 90+ or else it's trash; I guess because of so many factors that skew modern reviews in ways dictated aside from the actual game quality this is why people hold on to this notion, but in a more honest industry we'd be seeing some of these massive AAA games cutting closer to mid-upper 70s to high 80s and just a very minute few hitting into the '90s let alone above that.

Captain Marvel didn't release during a pandemic with many theaters closed down. It also endured a controversy where people were talking about empty theaters opening weekend, questioning the Disney narrative. Some theater owners reported showings that sold out online but no one picked up tickets for, for instance. Some people don't like "conspiracy theories" but that one was pretty interesting especially since it was only a few months later it came out Disney had been cooking their books.

I agree with what you're saying, I also think it doesn't make sense to say "this game won't be 40 hours long, it's an expansion" or "this game is just a remake so not exciting"



And now watch every single "gaming tech site" that tore MS a new anus for cross-gen support, suddenly not mention it anymore, nor do the same to Sony for having a lot more (somewhat surprising IMHO, after their earlier messaging) cross-gen 1st-party than expected.

I won't even be surprised if they somehow start arguing in favor of cross-gen now that it seems Sony is going a lot with that strategy, and tear MS yet another new anus for only having Halo Infinite as a cross-gen title now :LOL: .

Honestly, most "gaming" media sites suck complete ass. No professionalism whatsoever.

Jim Ryan said he believed in generations but he then said he believed it meant there are exclusive benefits and features, as in... I play a game on PS5 I get the benefit of features like ray-tracing, higher framerates, better resolutions, SSD speeds, etc. He never claimed they weren't doing cross-gen games. He claimed games should take advantage of next-gen benefits and features, if they do while still having a PS4 version he's said nothing wrong.

I mean, if you want to talk about lying it IS weird Halo Infinite is the ONLY cross-gen support Microsoft is doing, maybe that's not a lie, maybe technically ONE GAME makes their claim truth, but it seems like more of a distortion than how Jim Ryan actually worded things. Personally I'd rather games not be cross-gen but if I CAN'T TELL, like how HFW looked INCREDIBLE then it doesn't really matter. The point of not wanting cross-gen is cross-gen holding a game back (think the downgrade Dark Souls ll got, think the downgrade Watch_Dogs got, etc.) not just in principle not wanting people to have access to shiny thing I have.

Yeah, sure, the media sites suck.
 

Ascend

Member
I’m going to link to myself back in May, saw the writing in the wall back then.

tenor.gif
 

Men_in_Boxes

Snake Oil Salesman
Can anyone point to the first truly next gen game we're going to get? Has anything been announced yet?

The only game I can think of is Beyond Good and Evil 2.
 
I'm confused, what is everyone upset about?

Sony made it seem like all first party games going forward would be built from the ground up for the PS5 . But it turns out that Horizon Zero Dawn 2, Spider man miles Morales and maybe even God of War 2 and most of the PS5 launch games will all be coming to PS4 and PS5.

Some people feel this move will hold back next gen because developers might have to use the PS4 as a baseline.

People ripped MS for creating the Series S and supporting the Xbox one for 2 more years because they felt this would hold back the Series X but Sony is doing the exact same thing with the PS4 but they did not say this upfront like MS did.
 
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Sony made it seem like all first party games going forward would be built from the ground up for the PS5 . But it turns out that Horizon Zero Dawn 2, Spider man miles Morales and maybe even God of War 2 and most of the PS5 launch games will all be coming to PS4 and PS5.

Some people feel this move will hold back next gen because developers might have to use the PS4 as a baseline.

To make a long story short people ripped MS for creating the Series S and supporting the Xbox one for 2 more years because they felt this would hold back the Series X but Sony is doing the exact same thing with the PS4 but they did not say this upfront like MS did.

The way they announced Miles Morales and HFW was to say PS4 versions are being made in parallel to PS5 versions. That still suggests the PS5 version is built from the ground up, Whether not phrasing it that way is PR doesn't change that it's the only official word on it we have.
 

Nikana

Go Go Neo Rangers!
The way they announced Miles Morales and HFW was to say PS4 versions are being made in parallel to PS5 versions. That still suggests the PS5 version is built from the ground up, Whether not phrasing it that way is PR doesn't change that it's the only official word on it we have.

Unless they have different teams working on the game its not built from the ground up on PS5.
 
I mean, I expect Demon's Souls to be among the best games ever made, it looks absolutely incredible and I'm a huge Souls fan. Some of the games you mentioned look like glorified tech demos or walking sims. Scorn has a cool Giger aesthetic but the gameplay doesn't look impressive. BMI just looks like a shinier Shadow Warrior. Okay, I looked up Exo-Mecha, this is my first time seeing it... that looks like my jam honestly... like fuck that looks good. Okay, you scored 1 point on me. I still think they're all going to sell less and get lower Meta scores than the PS5 equivalents, though that's more a general argument than personal preference.
Best game ever? Pretty subjective. Personally I don't get the appeal of the tedium of Souls games, but lots of people love them. It'll be interesting to see how the game is different vs the original.
 

Elcid

Banned
Going to post this here too:
Like you guys have never seen a console launch before, of course games are cross gen the first 1-2 years. Some companies will continue that the entire time! This is a classic case of who gives a shit, you're making a big deal out of nothing.
Also comparing this to the series X and series S is dumb. The series X and S SHARE THE EXACT SAME VERSIONS, more akin to PS4 and PS4 Pro. So yes, next gen versions of games are actually held back by the series S. The PS4 and PS5 have different versions of games meaning they can do completely different optimization between the versions. There is a generational gap between a PS4 and PS5 version. The PS4 version of a game needs to support the PS4 and Pro. The PS5 only has to focus on the PS5, PS5 is NOT held back by PS4. There is a generational difference. This is NOT the case for the Xbox Series X and Xbox Series S.

In otherwords, Jim didn't lie.
 
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dalekjay

Member
I'm confused, what is everyone upset about?

Because SonyGaf nitpick stuff to justify that PlayStation is better but Sony just double crossed them by doing something that went against one of SonyGaf, then, XboxGaf is calling
bullshit on it



I’m selling popcorn do you want?
Also put 5$ on SonyGaf spinning the argument and put XboxGaf on defensive again but they will engineer a Sony personal Craig to counter sad Craig, but will fall flat because Craig come more naturally.
SonyGaf will probably use machine learning to make a even monster Craig.
 
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oldergamer

Member
Not possible given how amazing Spiderman looked. Have to hand it to SIE, not a single studio with even a whiff of incompetence. *cough* 343i *cough*
Don't use the studio or incompetence excuse. That is bullshit. Comparing a shipped polished game to something MS didn't even say was a Alpha?? Compare finished games to each other, fine. Not unfinished!

This was simply argued as being a horrible thing for the ENTIRE reason people though MS was doing it and sony wasn't.
 
Unless they have different teams working on the game its not built from the ground up on PS5.

The wording was made in parallel, not a game that simply works on both. It's wait and see on whether or not that's PR.


Doesn't even make sense.

Best game ever? Pretty subjective. Personally I don't get the appeal of the tedium of Souls games, but lots of people love them. It'll be interesting to see how the game is different vs the original.

"I EXPECT it to be AMONG the best games ever" - It is subjective, hence I. I also said expect and I also said among.
 
The way they announced Miles Morales and HFW was to say PS4 versions are being made in parallel to PS5 versions. That still suggests the PS5 version is built from the ground up, Whether not phrasing it that way is PR doesn't change that it's the only official word on it we have.

This is very wishful thinking

Most likely they will build these games off the PS4 pro and have slight enhancements for the PS5 version. These games are massive and expensive to make just on the PS4 alone. There is no way they have two separate teams.
 
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Redlight

Member
Fallout 76 is all-new, Deus Ex: Mankind Divided is all-new... Half-Life would rather give us VR gimmick games, sorry to everyone who loves Alyx but as a long-time Half-Life fan I am disappoint. We have gotten new entries... they suck... Outer Worlds kinda sucks too.

New games are risky. Some will be great, some will be garbage and occasionally true breakthroughs are made. That risk taking is what brings the truly amazing experiences though.

Those rare few are the games that drive things forward. TLoU was a risk, thank God we got that rather than a Jak and Daxter remake.
 

PerfectDark

Banned
Both games are Horizon 2 and Spiderman 2. They already have the game engine. They both are basically expansion or games built from the other.

Not sticking up for Sony but they are not going to start from scratch and build new versions of the same game on PS5. Maybe if it was a new IP or a IP not made within the last 5 years.
 

MarkMe2525

Member
Both games are Horizon 2 and Spiderman 2. They already have the game engine. They both are basically expansion or games built from the other.

Not sticking up for Sony but they are not going to start from scratch and build new versions of the same game on PS5. Maybe if it was a new IP or a IP not made within the last 5 years.
I think everyone is well aware of this. The issue is Sony went out of their way to imply and then let the idea that those games were ps5 only. I followed the news cycle and articles by mainstream tech sites were parroting this message while contrasting it with MS's (honest and forthright) take on crossgen(while usually praising Sony for their stance). Sony had ample time and opportunity to set the record straight. I do think people are overreacting but I will now take what Jim says with a large dose of salt from here on out.

Edit: I realize I could have responded with this to many of other posts. I'm not calling you out directly, just wanted to respond to your sentiment and people who share it.
 
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