Support NeoGAF

[sublimit]

*Reads OP and looks at the people who "LOLed" at this.

*See all the usual names and avatars.*

*Feels good that everything is still normal in this forum.*

*Continues to read thread.*

 

[megreotsugua]

Also, kitty's reaction to the presser of yesterday...



People fall for marketing talk far too easily.

Who is she though? Why should we give weight to her findings?

DF should have been the ones telling you about this but they concentrated on the time of day in the game.

I'm glad DF didn't see any "signs" of VRS in PS5 games, which means PS5 games are crisp and full of details. I wonder if we'll see xsx games exhibiting blurry vrs on 3rd party games.

 

[Larogue]

It's gonna be ok

 

[kuncol02]

By that measure, Sony could've simply developed the APU themselves

Not with x86 architecture.

 

[Aguero9320]

Shameless spin, utterly shameless

 

[El Pistolero]

I am expecting a lot of “lazy devs” to hit the internet very soon!

 

[ReBurn]

Why is there so much butthurt about this? There are zero instances where any of this is an issue right now.

 

[JackMcGunns]

Much the same way that AMD has their own version of handling DLSS, that was never the question. Isn't this just classic goal post moving? like arguing for months that Big Navi will have DLSS 2.0 because it was made by the same engineers from nVidia, but then after it's officially confirmed that it doesn't support DLSS 2.0, the claim is that AMD will have its own version of machine learning super sampling and we all pretend its the same thing

 

[yurinka]

This seems like the double sided chip cooling patent, that wasn't use.
I wait for an official word from Sony or independent verification of the use in a game before I jump on this train.

A photo just for clarity:

 

[too much eslim]

You guys do realize MS has the Geometry engine too?

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

Not with x86 architecture.

At some point I'm expecting people to blame x86 :S

Sony hired AMD, but they choose to implement their own design for some parts. If they take this route it seem logical to think they believe their solution is better, if not why the trouble ? You don't custom your cutting edge, flagship hardware to make it less efficient.

Common misconception; back in the day ALL consoles were custom and yet some still clearly had advantages over others. Again, people are conflating custom with better. That is them reading an emotional bias into it. Objectively speaking, custom simply means "different".

Going by the assumptions some of you are throwing out, it's not much wonder why we've seen very little public synergy between Sony and AMD: why would the latter want to embrace the former openly in public engagements if the former, by the assertion of you guys, feels the latter's solutions are inferior (yet still turned to the latter for designing the APU)? It's a comedy of contradictions on your part when you break it down like this.

Whatever Sony's customizations are, will be fit for their design. That doesn't mean they're better than AMDs and, by association, Microsoft's. This is just more "secret sauce" wish fulfillment but it doesn't deal much with an objective reality because very few of the assumptions and speculations made are tied to things which have therein been tangibly tied to actual objective, official statements from the company directly, as coming to an actual product.

I'd actually go to say, in light of some things recently, that Sony's customizations by and large might've been less out of preference and more out of necessity; the rumors that they worked closely with AMD on Navi might've been true moreso in power envelopes for higher clocks, but it seems MS's side of the collaborations are forming a lot of the backbone of RDNA2 at a functionality level, given RDNA2 is mainly a PC-driven GPU product line, and MS & AMD's interests converge a lot on that front.

In any case, we've got hints that Tom Warren, Jason Ronald even maybe Andrew Goosen will be talking more about the things AMD revealed yesterday. If they do, and no one from Sony does similar (in an official capacity, not a "hint open to lots of interpretation on Twiter" like Matt Hargett has done (no slight at him btw; they were involved in the software engineering team for PS5 so they obviously know what it can do, but the Twitter conversations are limited due to strong NDAs he has to uphold), with how close we are to the consoles launching, well...that'll be answer enough on some things.

gaf in one way or the other never learn to restraint
it's too early for victory dance (or meltdown)
we miss rdna 2 and ps5 architecture details to be sure....

Have we?

People keep talking about Sony doing their own Hot Chips style event but...did they forget about Road to PS5? That followed the same time schedule of a similar event for the PS4, wherein they went into a lot of that system's technical specifications as well. People just seem to have forgotten that, maybe due to the embarrassment that was the XBO's televised May event later that year :/

Road to PS5 was aimed at developers, and Mark Cerny went into a lot of technical details there. If we were going to hear of all the important elements to PS5's design, by and large, that was the event to hear them at. We can look forward to dev insight on their own experiences with the hardware at future GDC events for sure I suppose, but don't expect any of them to suddenly drop out of the blue "Oh yeah btw, PS5 also has this bomb-ass super-intelligence AI tensor-like core feature in the GPU that's SUPER helpful for us devs. Which Mark didn't talk about in Road to PS5 which was aimed at developers, btw!"

By and large we know what both systems can do and are capable of. The time for any major shocks or megatons in terms of some "top level secret sauce" that'll change the game is more or less over. At most we'll get some iterative discussions from the console manufacturers on elements of features AMD revealed yesterday that are in their consoles, but so far we've only heard MS Xbox engineers confirm that they're going to be doing this, no one from Sony (yet). And it'd make no sense for anyone at Sony to wait until after the PS5 is released, to suddenly talk about their implementation of things that were revealed two weeks prior, and further elaborated on by their competitor.

People really need to look at the situation more clearly.

 

[KURDISTAN YPG]

This explains why sony sfk was put there first snd people were saying microsoft hate sent out late sdk way later then so y.

But i find it very odd sony would bring ther own solution if the rdna 2 already comes with packed features.

 

[John Wick]

Rally the troops!!

Deploy the PR defense force, these patents are old news and the techniques have already been in use for years such as low resolution transparencies .. and fov rendering for VR.

Xbox has the latest VRS in hardware and can use it inside the lighting and shadow engine as well as in rasterization. Theres a reason MS VRS patent people talk about .. and Sonys, people dont.

All this means jack. All Xbox ever talks about is numbers ie teraflops and VRS this and that. Sony let's the games do the talking. Astro's Playroom and DualSense previews have been so glowing and positive hardly anyone cares about RDNA2 features. Now with Demons Souls gameplay all talk of SFS etc is dead. Just fangirls losing their minds.

 

[John Wick]

At some point I'm expecting people to blame x86 :S



Common misconception; back in the day ALL consoles were custom and yet some still clearly had advantages over others. Again, people are conflating custom with better. That is them reading an emotional bias into it. Objectively speaking, custom simply means "different".

Going by the assumptions some of you are throwing out, it's not much wonder why we've seen very little public synergy between Sony and AMD: why would the latter want to embrace the former openly in public engagements if the former, by the assertion of you guys, feels the latter's solutions are inferior (yet still turned to the latter for designing the APU)? It's a comedy of contradictions on your part when you break it down like this.

Whatever Sony's customizations are, will be fit for their design. That doesn't mean they're better than AMDs and, by association, Microsoft's. This is just more "secret sauce" wish fulfillment but it doesn't deal much with an objective reality because very few of the assumptions and speculations made are tied to things which have therein been tangibly tied to actual objective, official statements from the company directly, as coming to an actual product.

I'd actually go to say, in light of some things recently, that Sony's customizations by and large might've been less out of preference and more out of necessity; the rumors that they worked closely with AMD on Navi might've been true moreso in power envelopes for higher clocks, but it seems MS's side of the collaborations are forming a lot of the backbone of RDNA2 at a functionality level, given RDNA2 is mainly a PC-driven GPU product line, and MS & AMD's interests converge a lot on that front.

In any case, we've got hints that Tom Warren, Jason Ronald even maybe Andrew Goosen will be talking more about the things AMD revealed yesterday. If they do, and no one from Sony does similar (in an official capacity, not a "hint open to lots of interpretation on Twiter" like Matt Hargett has done (no slight at him btw; they were involved in the software engineering team for PS5 so they obviously know what it can do, but the Twitter conversations are limited due to strong NDAs he has to uphold), with how close we are to the consoles launching, well...that'll be answer enough on some things.



Have we?

People keep talking about Sony doing their own Hot Chips style event but...did they forget about Road to PS5? That followed the same time schedule of a similar event for the PS4, wherein they went into a lot of that system's technical specifications as well. People just seem to have forgotten that, maybe due to the embarrassment that was the XBO's televised May event later that year :/

Road to PS5 was aimed at developers, and Mark Cerny went into a lot of technical details there. If we were going to hear of all the important elements to PS5's design, by and large, that was the event to hear them at. We can look forward to dev insight on their own experiences with the hardware at future GDC events for sure I suppose, but don't expect any of them to suddenly drop out of the blue "Oh yeah btw, PS5 also has this bomb-ass super-intelligence AI tensor-like core feature in the GPU that's SUPER helpful for us devs. Which Mark didn't talk about in Road to PS5 which was aimed at developers, btw!"

By and large we know what both systems can do and are capable of. The time for any major shocks or megatons in terms of some "top level secret sauce" that'll change the game is more or less over. At most we'll get some iterative discussions from the console manufacturers on elements of features AMD revealed yesterday that are in their consoles, but so far we've only heard MS Xbox engineers confirm that they're going to be doing this, no one from Sony (yet). And it'd make no sense for anyone at Sony to wait until after the PS5 is released, to suddenly talk about their implementation of things that were revealed two weeks prior, and further elaborated on by their competitor.

People really need to look at the situation more clearly.

The DualSense is a game changer. I couldn't care less who used what customization. All talk of 12tflops means nothing with no decent software. I'm more excited to try DualSense and Astro(along with Sackboy) to feel how amazing it looks and feels to play. Demons Souls gameplay made it even more hard to wait

 

[vpance]

Honestly, ask yourself. Would rather have a Cerny designed GPU or an AMD one? Or one done by both? Nuff said.

 

[Clear]

Honestly, ask yourself. Would rather have a Cerny designed GPU or an AMD one? Or one done by both? Nuff said.

The real question is would you rather have a GPU designed to a specific purpose, or one designed for generic use?
Off-the-rack versus bespoke suit in short.

 

[martino]

People really need to look at the situation more clearly.

it's not clear at all for now.
we will at least have a lot more detail from rdna2

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

The real question is would you rather have a GPU designed to a specific purpose, or one designed for generic use?
Off-the-rack versus bespoke suit in short.

They both have customizations. You guys are trying to leverage terms like "generic" and whether you realize it or not, are belittling AMD while doing so. The same AMD Sony turned to in order to help develop their next-generation APU, so what would that say about Sony?

Once again, customized != inherently better. It's clear in the language some of you are using that you are attempting to convey this but there's no direct correlation. It just means different, and there's evidence mounting now that Sony's customizations were out of necessity since the dev partnership between MS and AMD for RDNA2 seems to run a lot deeper than people were willing to acknowledge early on.

it's not clear at all for now.
we will at least have a lot more detail from rdna2

It's clear enough for us to have a general idea of where things are at the moment. AMD are launching these card extremely soon, sometime in early-mid November would be most likely, in time with the console launches. There are plenty of papers on RDNA and RDNA2 around that go into the architecture, and AMD have seemingly revealed a lot of the big aspects of the architecture wrapping up with yesterday's show.

This is starting to sound a lot like the talk that became popular around the Github leaks. "We need more info" became a bullet point to dissuade references and talk about the leaks whatsoever, especially around certain spots. Even when those were the only proofs of hard data on the GPUs at the time we were discussing them. And it turned out they were at least mostly right on the high-level details, and gave a very good dev timeline of events (particularly for PS5). A lot of which still matches up with details we are learning even now.

But again, some people are thinking too much with their emotional side and not enough with the logical/rational side. You need healthy measures of both.

 

[Dnice123]

I clicked on this thread expecting new comments or clarifications from Cerny or Naughty Dog. What I got was more...

 

[martino]

They both have customizations. You guys are trying to leverage terms like "generic" and whether you realize it or not, are belittling AMD while doing so. The same AMD Sony turned to in order to help develop their next-generation APU, so what would that say about Sony?

Once again, customized != inherently better. It's clear in the language some of you are using that you are attempting to convey this but there's no direct correlation. It just means different, and there's evidence mounting now that Sony's customizations were out of necessity since the dev partnership between MS and AMD for RDNA2 seems to run a lot deeper than people were willing to acknowledge early on.



It's clear enough for us to have a general idea of where things are at the moment. AMD are launching these card extremely soon, sometime in early-mid November would be most likely, in time with the console launches. There are plenty of papers on RDNA and RDNA2 around that go into the architecture, and AMD have seemingly revealed a lot of the big aspects of the architecture wrapping up with yesterday's show.

This is starting to sound a lot like the talk that became popular around the Github leaks. "We need more info" became a bullet point to dissuade references and talk about the leaks whatsoever, especially around certain spots. Even when those were the only proofs of hard data on the GPUs at the time we were discussing them. And it turned out they were at least mostly right on the high-level details, and gave a very good dev timeline of events (particularly for PS5). A lot of which still matches up with details we are learning even now.

But again, some people are thinking too much with their emotional side and not enough with the logical/rational side. You need healthy measures of both.

Github was mostly right. the keyword is mostly.Or is this a bad stealth 9 tf narrative ?
Thank for the ad hominem but let's discuss it would you ?
Who is the one really on emotion here ? the one filling the blank or the one waiting infos ? (be rational here )
Again we won't have to wait long to have enough details. Why end debate now ?
I don't even see what is your contribution here ? saying absence of something is proof of absence ? (be rational here again )
Because saying let's wait...is not saying VRS and mesh shader will be there...it's just saying it's difficult to conclude anything with current level of info.
But if you want to assume it's not there be , fine.
And if we ear nothing about it in the next weeks i will begin to join you but not the day after.
jumping to conclusion make you look like the one that need a win for some side.....

 

[duhmetree]

I can't believe it has come to this. Microsoft PR really knows how to rally their troops. Its like some Zoolander type of trigger words.

Full RDNA2... what does that mean? as in for games?

3rd Party = parity; so much wow
1st Party = Sony dominating. It might be Late 2021/2022 before we see any AAA Xbox games. It's not even close.

So, 'full' RDNA2 is not worth what people think its worth. If you're beating your chest like a buffoon, please stop.

 

[John Wick]

They both have customizations. You guys are trying to leverage terms like "generic" and whether you realize it or not, are belittling AMD while doing so. The same AMD Sony turned to in order to help develop their next-generation APU, so what would that say about Sony?

Once again, customized != inherently better. It's clear in the language some of you are using that you are attempting to convey this but there's no direct correlation. It just means different, and there's evidence mounting now that Sony's customizations were out of necessity since the dev partnership between MS and AMD for RDNA2 seems to run a lot deeper than people were willing to acknowledge early on.



It's clear enough for us to have a general idea of where things are at the moment. AMD are launching these card extremely soon, sometime in early-mid November would be most likely, in time with the console launches. There are plenty of papers on RDNA and RDNA2 around that go into the architecture, and AMD have seemingly revealed a lot of the big aspects of the architecture wrapping up with yesterday's show.

This is starting to sound a lot like the talk that became popular around the Github leaks. "We need more info" became a bullet point to dissuade references and talk about the leaks whatsoever, especially around certain spots. Even when those were the only proofs of hard data on the GPUs at the time we were discussing them. And it turned out they were at least mostly right on the high-level details, and gave a very good dev timeline of events (particularly for PS5). A lot of which still matches up with details we are learning even now.

But again, some people are thinking too much with their emotional side and not enough with the logical/rational side. You need healthy measures of both.

Custom is better for Sony. Why? Because the PS5 isn't a PC. So having features which benefit Sony and developers are more important than standard PC customisation.

 

[John Wick]

I can't believe it has come to this. Microsoft PR really knows how to rally their troops. Its like some Zoolander type of trigger words.

Full RDNA2... what does that mean? as in for games?

3rd Party = parity; so much wow
1st Party = Sony dominating. It might be Late 2021/2022 before we see any AAA Xbox games. It's not even close.

So, 'full' RDNA2 is not worth what people think its worth. If you're beating your chest like a buffoon, please stop.

Right now Sony is trending mega positive. Xbox not soo much. They need something to grasp on to. Every other week MS try to spin something as a negative for PS5. Even their mouthpieces are trying their best to spread fud.

 

[sinnergy]

Sony has Splash shading tm

heard it here first !!

 

[John Wick]

At some point I'm expecting people to blame x86 :S



Common misconception; back in the day ALL consoles were custom and yet some still clearly had advantages over others. Again, people are conflating custom with better. That is them reading an emotional bias into it. Objectively speaking, custom simply means "different".

Going by the assumptions some of you are throwing out, it's not much wonder why we've seen very little public synergy between Sony and AMD: why would the latter want to embrace the former openly in public engagements if the former, by the assertion of you guys, feels the latter's solutions are inferior (yet still turned to the latter for designing the APU)? It's a comedy of contradictions on your part when you break it down like this.

Whatever Sony's customizations are, will be fit for their design. That doesn't mean they're better than AMDs and, by association, Microsoft's. This is just more "secret sauce" wish fulfillment but it doesn't deal much with an objective reality because very few of the assumptions and speculations made are tied to things which have therein been tangibly tied to actual objective, official statements from the company directly, as coming to an actual product.

I'd actually go to say, in light of some things recently, that Sony's customizations by and large might've been less out of preference and more out of necessity; the rumors that they worked closely with AMD on Navi might've been true moreso in power envelopes for higher clocks, but it seems MS's side of the collaborations are forming a lot of the backbone of RDNA2 at a functionality level, given RDNA2 is mainly a PC-driven GPU product line, and MS & AMD's interests converge a lot on that front.

In any case, we've got hints that Tom Warren, Jason Ronald even maybe Andrew Goosen will be talking more about the things AMD revealed yesterday. If they do, and no one from Sony does similar (in an official capacity, not a "hint open to lots of interpretation on Twiter" like Matt Hargett has done (no slight at him btw; they were involved in the software engineering team for PS5 so they obviously know what it can do, but the Twitter conversations are limited due to strong NDAs he has to uphold), with how close we are to the consoles launching, well...that'll be answer enough on some things.



Have we?

People keep talking about Sony doing their own Hot Chips style event but...did they forget about Road to PS5? That followed the same time schedule of a similar event for the PS4, wherein they went into a lot of that system's technical specifications as well. People just seem to have forgotten that, maybe due to the embarrassment that was the XBO's televised May event later that year :/

Road to PS5 was aimed at developers, and Mark Cerny went into a lot of technical details there. If we were going to hear of all the important elements to PS5's design, by and large, that was the event to hear them at. We can look forward to dev insight on their own experiences with the hardware at future GDC events for sure I suppose, but don't expect any of them to suddenly drop out of the blue "Oh yeah btw, PS5 also has this bomb-ass super-intelligence AI tensor-like core feature in the GPU that's SUPER helpful for us devs. Which Mark didn't talk about in Road to PS5 which was aimed at developers, btw!"

By and large we know what both systems can do and are capable of. The time for any major shocks or megatons in terms of some "top level secret sauce" that'll change the game is more or less over. At most we'll get some iterative discussions from the console manufacturers on elements of features AMD revealed yesterday that are in their consoles, but so far we've only heard MS Xbox engineers confirm that they're going to be doing this, no one from Sony (yet). And it'd make no sense for anyone at Sony to wait until after the PS5 is released, to suddenly talk about their implementation of things that were revealed two weeks prior, and further elaborated on by their competitor.

People really need to look at the situation more clearly.

The other thing you fail to mention is that Sony keep most of their cards close to their chest. Only ever release info when pressured to do so etc. MS usually always go in depth to their technology whereas Sony rarely do.
These features mainly affect developers rather than consumers so I'm sure the dev community will know what's in or out. Sony very well could have these features or not or they could have custom ones more suited to console.

 

[cragarmi]

We need a deep dive on the Geometry Engine. It's their baby after all.

Majority of devs don't even know what it does except for principal programmers. Those hardly talk...

Matt can spill the beans and has the contacts within Sony obviously but he's very shy other than hinting about GE's actual worth to dispel FUD. But it's clearly not his job anymore - specially if Sony has an NDA on it. It would look unprofessional on his part among his peers and friends. At this point he's just an observer feeding RGT drips (the source(s) RGT hypes/talks about).

In the end though, real time performance with software is King. So we'll get that soon on November 10-12.

I think Sony are just happy for the games to do the talking, I expect there will be time to here from Cerny more in due course, but I don't think we will see anything until after launch. It may have helped if they had called it something other than Geometry Engine, as that was already an established term which has just caused confusion, which MS is now trying to capitalise on.

 

[Portugeezer]

PS5 preorder cancellation cancelled.

 

[geordiemp]

They both have customizations. You guys are trying to leverage terms like "generic" and whether you realize it or not, are belittling AMD while doing so. The same AMD Sony turned to in order to help develop their next-generation APU, so what would that say about Sony?

Once again, customized != inherently better. It's clear in the language some of you are using that you are attempting to convey this but there's no direct correlation. It just means different, and there's evidence mounting now that Sony's customizations were out of necessity since the dev partnership between MS and AMD for RDNA2 seems to run a lot deeper than people were willing to acknowledge early on.



It's clear enough for us to have a general idea of where things are at the moment. AMD are launching these card extremely soon, sometime in early-mid November would be most likely, in time with the console launches. There are plenty of papers on RDNA and RDNA2 around that go into the architecture, and AMD have seemingly revealed a lot of the big aspects of the architecture wrapping up with yesterday's show.

This is starting to sound a lot like the talk that became popular around the Github leaks. "We need more info" became a bullet point to dissuade references and talk about the leaks whatsoever, especially around certain spots. Even when those were the only proofs of hard data on the GPUs at the time we were discussing them. And it turned out they were at least mostly right on the high-level details, and gave a very good dev timeline of events (particularly for PS5). A lot of which still matches up with details we are learning even now.

But again, some people are thinking too much with their emotional side and not enough with the logical/rational side. You need healthy measures of both.

Sony will let the games do the talking, When XSX being a 20 % bigger chip with 17 % more TF does not give a performance differential for that additional silicon which is expensive on TSMC 7nm. Then what does that tell you.

We will then get lots of posts about COVID, SDK, lazy devs, dog ate my homework, it will be more powerful next year or in 2 or 3 years when games developed for XSX from ground up in 2024 come out or whatever.

Do you feel confident in 17 or 18 % differential so I can book mark it. If they are the same or close enough, and 20 % more XSX silicon, that is a fail especially with ps5 having the Fast IO hardware in apu.

 

[Clear]

They both have customizations. You guys are trying to leverage terms like "generic" and whether you realize it or not, are belittling AMD while doing so. The same AMD Sony turned to in order to help develop their next-generation APU, so what would that say about Sony?

The problem is that MS are planning to target a whole bunch of platforms with their entire dev-pipeline, its not a situation that allows them the same degree of focus that Sony has. There's just no getting around the fact that all their DirectX and similar API's need to be able to support a whole lot more than just SX; there's a much more in terms of legacy support that needs to be figured in.

 

[mitchman]

I'll simplify this,

Both consoles have advanced Geometry culling systems. (not even going into AMD dropping GE for Mesh Shading), XSX has VRS in addition to mesh shading.

The tweet being paraded around is trying to compare 2 entirely different functions of a rendering pipeline.

The point is that the tweet specifically mentions "optimization capabilities" in the rendering pipeline, even if they are in different parts of it. Read those two words again.

 

[mitchman]

Yet he compares a form of dynamic resolution scaling to geometry culling.

No, he compares the optimization capabilities of the two.

 

[Hawking Radiation]

No, he compares the optimization capabilities of the two.

You're responding to a clown. Don't bother wasting your time with that turd.

 

[Dave_at_Home]

Someone should tell him that variable rate shading has nothing to do with geometry.

Geometry is handled by mesh shading.

Geometry Engine is a hold over from GCN which AMD dropped in favour of supporting Microsofts solution.

Not sure if you know this, but Matt Hargett is a former principle software engineer on the PS5. I'm guessing he knows what he's talking about...

 

[SatansReverence]

Not sure if you know this, but Matt Hargett is a former principle software engineer on the PS5. I'm guessing he knows what he's talking about...

The point is that the tweet specifically mentions "optimization capabilities" in the rendering pipeline, even if they are in different parts of it. Read those two words again.

Who he is matters little when he is making an apples to oranges comparison that a grade schooler wouldn't.

 

[Krisprolls]

In this thread, we learn a gaffer knows more about the PS5 than PS5 engineers themselves.

Preorder cancelled. I'll buy the SatansReverence Box 5 instead.

 

[oldergamer]

DF should have been the ones telling you about this but they concentrated on the time of day in the game.

unfinished game. How hard is that to understand??

 

[oldergamer]

Never in the history of gaming have people over analyzed an unfinished game to this extent. We all know it wasn't done and not close to being polished. End of story until we get a glimpse of the final game.

 

[too much eslim]

Surely Sony should have sacked off their best in class io unit and gone with direct storage and SFS etc so they could brag about having the same things a pc will use. 'the same capabilities' amd said... as Microsoft bragged.

It doesn't matter that what Sony produced is exclusive, built only for ps5 not pc therefore better for a console and ingenious, they could have bragged about terminology



This is so dumb lol.

Even though they have games coming to PC? And specifically started looking for developers with PC experience?

 

[Dave_at_Home]

Who he is matters little when he is making an apples to oranges comparison that a grade schooler wouldn't.

I think it matters plenty. Also, this. <blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Right, I’m talking about VRS on surface geometry that shouldn’t be culled because it’s relevant for the scene/camera/occlusion/bounce </p>&mdash; Matt Hargett (@syke) <a href="">June 19, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Edit: Welp. Screwed that up a bit.

 

[Lloyd22]

i believe in what mark cerny is doing, he will find better option for VRS and mesh shading.

 

[Jaguar Victory]

Sony will let the games do the talking, When XSX being a 20 % bigger chip with 17 % more TF does not give a performance differential for that additional silicon which is expensive on TSMC 7nm. Then what does that tell you.

We will then get lots of posts about COVID, SDK, lazy devs, dog ate my homework, it will be more powerful next year or in 2 or 3 years when games developed for XSX from ground up in 2024 come out or whatever.

Do you feel confident in 17 or 18 % differential so I can book mark it. If they are the same or close enough, and 20 % more XSX silicon, that is a fail especially with ps5 having the Fast IO hardware in apu.

I see. So we should all just get Nintendos.

 

[Epic Sax CEO]

Honestly, ask yourself. Would rather have a Cerny designed GPU or an AMD one? Or one done by both? Nuff said.

Without a moment of doubt, David Wang.

 

[Lethal01]

I see. So we should all just get Nintendos.

Age of Calamity is tons of fun, can't wait for it to drop.

 

[Fitzchiv]

All this means jack. All Xbox ever talks about is numbers ie teraflops and VRS this and that. Sony let's the games do the talking. Astro's Playroom and DualSense previews have been so glowing and positive hardly anyone cares about RDNA2 features. Now with Demons Souls gameplay all talk of SFS etc is dead. Just fangirls losing their minds.

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

Custom is better for Sony. Why? Because the PS5 isn't a PC. So having features which benefit Sony and developers are more important than standard PC customisation.

You mean the 3P devs who pretty much also..develop their games for PC? By that notion a similar set of API tools to program against between console and PC would be important to them.

Also you have an oxymoron: "standard PC customization". You can't even give a definition to what this is, can you? How is something standard if it's a customization? Wouldn't the term 'customization" imply it's a differentiation from a standard? How do you begin to describe what is "standard" PC? The standard of various buses, sub-systems, API sets etc. for PC have changed wildly ever since the days of the first IBM PC-compatible.

The other thing you fail to mention is that Sony keep most of their cards close to their chest. Only ever release info when pressured to do so etc. MS usually always go in depth to their technology whereas Sony rarely do.
These features mainly affect developers rather than consumers so I'm sure the dev community will know what's in or out. Sony very well could have these features or not or they could have custom ones more suited to console.

Actually, Sony are usually pretty open. Keeping cards "close to the chest", by that notion they should've kept the SSD I/O details and cache scrubbers close to their chest. Why put those things out? Oh yeah, because they were speaking to developers for the platform. So these things you're saying they're keeping "close to their chest" either don't exist, or weren't important enough to them to specify in Road to PS5.

There's not much reason to keep these kind of things close to the chest anyway; it's not like these companies can suddenly change the specs this late into the process if the competitor reveals something they didn't expect. So who benefits from holding these rather important confirmations "close to the chest"? For what purpose? How? We aren't speaking of rote, non-impactful features either; those sort of things we wouldn't expect to get details on obviously.

Now you've created another situation here: "MS usually always go in depth on their technology whereas Sony rarely do." Okay, so why are you and others expecting Sony to do a technological deep-dive to reveal more specifications in the first place, then? Didn't you just say they rarely do that sort of thing? So, if that happens to play out, then there won't be any outright clarification on what implementations of these sort of features they have, and we're back at square one: just reference patents, research papers, or theories that may or may not have any bearing on the actual product, out of good faith.

That works up to a point but eventually you have to start assuming that if clarifications aren't provided, chances are certain things may not be there.

Github was mostly right. the keyword is mostly.Or is this a bad stealth 9 tf narrative ?
Thank for the ad hominem but let's discuss it would you ?
Who is the one really on emotion here ? the one filling the blank or the one waiting infos ? (be rational here )
Again we won't have to wait long to have enough details. Why end debate now ?
I don't even see what is your contribution here ? saying absence of something is proof of absence ? (be rational here again )
Because saying let's wait...is not saying VRS and mesh shader will be there...it's just saying it's difficult to conclude anything with current level of info.
But if you want to assume it's not there be , fine.
And if we ear nothing about it in the next weeks i will begin to join you but not the day after.
jumping to conclusion make you look like the one that need a win for some side.....

I bring up Github and you immediately think I'm pushing the "sometimes 10.2, usually 9 TF" narrative? That says more about you than it does me, I've never once been about that narrative. Ever.

You don't have to treat this as an either/or thing. You can fill in the blanks all you want, but ultimately there needs to be some sort of official verification that can at least tie what you fill in to something of substance that's in an actual product. I hold MS to the same standards, so I'm not going to just keep doing "wishful thinking" with features that could theoretically be present in Sony's platform but there's little to any official listing of those features, especially with the consoles set to come out in mere weeks.

Absence of official verification is plausible proof that the thing one seeks to have verification on, may not exist or be present. Completely 100% logical conclusion. Why are you trying to frame this as something else?

"A win for some side...", it sounds like you are projecting here. I love all of these systems, have made that pretty clear in my posts on this forum. I'm just sorry that being truthful, objective and logical on some controversial topics regarding these systems upsets people :/

Sony will let the games do the talking, When XSX being a 20 % bigger chip with 17 % more TF does not give a performance differential for that additional silicon which is expensive on TSMC 7nm. Then what does that tell you.

We will then get lots of posts about COVID, SDK, lazy devs, dog ate my homework, it will be more powerful next year or in 2 or 3 years when games developed for XSX from ground up in 2024 come out or whatever.

Do you feel confident in 17 or 18 % differential so I can book mark it. If they are the same or close enough, and 20 % more XSX silicon, that is a fail especially with ps5 having the Fast IO hardware in apu.

Now this is just becoming a fanboy argument. I expected better from you geordiemp, you've been a lot more rational the past few weeks without pulling out these ridiculous strawman arguments.

I'm not taking any bets on this because I don't care enough to do that. The bet would be fraudulent anyway because you're making bad claims here. Simply conflating many things in this comment of yours by drawing lots of misguided correlations. As someone who actually likes both of these platforms, I'm not stooping down to that level and just hope reasoned logic eventually wins out and becomes a thing with some of you guys getting in the moment right now.

Cooler heads should prevail.

 

[geordiemp]

You mean the 3P devs who pretty much also..develop their games for PC? By that notion a similar set of API tools to program against between console and PC would be important to them.

Also you have an oxymoron: "standard PC customization". You can't even give a definition to what this is, can you? How is something standard if it's a customization? Wouldn't the term 'customization" imply it's a differentiation from a standard? How do you begin to describe what is "standard" PC? The standard of various buses, sub-systems, API sets etc. for PC have changed wildly ever since the days of the first IBM PC-compatible.




Actually, Sony are usually pretty open. Keeping cards "close to the chest", by that notion they should've kept the SSD I/O details and cache scrubbers close to their chest. Why put those things out? Oh yeah, because they were speaking to developers for the platform. So these things you're saying they're keeping "close to their chest" either don't exist, or weren't important enough to them to specify in Road to PS5.

There's not much reason to keep these kind of things close to the chest anyway; it's not like these companies can suddenly change the specs this late into the process if the competitor reveals something they didn't expect. So who benefits from holding these rather important confirmations "close to the chest"? For what purpose? How? We aren't speaking of rote, non-impactful features either; those sort of things we wouldn't expect to get details on obviously.

Now you've created another situation here: "MS usually always go in depth on their technology whereas Sony rarely do." Okay, so why are you and others expecting Sony to do a technological deep-dive to reveal more specifications in the first place, then? Didn't you just say they rarely do that sort of thing? So, if that happens to play out, then there won't be any outright clarification on what implementations of these sort of features they have, and we're back at square one: just reference patents, research papers, or theories that may or may not have any bearing on the actual product, out of good faith.

That works up to a point but eventually you have to start assuming that if clarifications aren't provided, chances are certain things may not be there.



I bring up Github and you immediately think I'm pushing the "sometimes 10.2, usually 9 TF" narrative? That says more about you than it does me, I've never once been about that narrative. Ever.

You don't have to treat this as an either/or thing. You can fill in the blanks all you want, but ultimately there needs to be some sort of official verification that can at least tie what you fill in to something of substance that's in an actual product. I hold MS to the same standards, so I'm not going to just keep doing "wishful thinking" with features that could theoretically be present in Sony's platform but there's little to any official listing of those features, especially with the consoles set to come out in mere weeks.

Absence of official verification is plausible proof that the thing one seeks to have verification on, may not exist or be present. Completely 100% logical conclusion. Why are you trying to frame this as something else?

"A win for some side...", it sounds like you are projecting here. I love all of these systems, have made that pretty clear in my posts on this forum. I'm just sorry that being truthful, objective and logical on some controversial topics regarding these systems upsets people :/



Now this is just becoming a fanboy argument. I expected better from you geordiemp, you've been a lot more rational the past few weeks without pulling out these ridiculous strawman arguments.

I'm not taking any bets on this because I don't care enough to do that. The bet would be fraudulent anyway because you're making bad claims here. Simply conflating many things in this comment of yours by drawing lots of misguided correlations. As someone who actually likes both of these platforms, I'm not stooping down to that level and just hope reasoned logic eventually wins out and becomes a thing with some of you guys getting in the moment right now.

Cooler heads should prevail.

Oh where is your fun, we can discuss the hardware till cows come home, there has to be some light fun as long as its civil, polite and respectful. Dont take my post too seriously, I was laughing as i was typing so its cool. I did not expect a serious answer.

There will be an interesting side to comparsions, if we can both dodge all the projectiles lol

 

[martino]

You don't have to treat this as an either/or thing. You can fill in the blanks all you want, but ultimately there needs to be some sort of official verification that can at least tie what you fill in to something of substance that's in an actual product. I hold MS to the same standards, so I'm not going to just keep doing "wishful thinking" with features that could theoretically be present in Sony's platform but there's little to any official listing of those features, especially with the consoles set to come out in mere weeks.

Absence of official verification is plausible proof that the thing one seeks to have verification on, may not exist or be present. Completely 100% logical conclusion. Why are you trying to frame this as something else?

"A win for some side...", it sounds like you are projecting here. I love all of these systems, have made that pretty clear in my posts on this forum. I'm just sorry that being truthful, objective and logical on some controversial topics regarding these systems upsets people :/

you began it and globally your opinion are way more sided than mine imo...
And you are the one that want to quickly jump to conclusion for whatever reason here.

edit : and again you jumped on me when i never said i think the feature are here....i'm just saying why jump so quickly to conclusion ?

 

[SatansReverence]

I think it matters plenty. Also, this. <blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Right, I’m talking about VRS on surface geometry that shouldn’t be culled because it’s relevant for the scene/camera/occlusion/bounce </p>&mdash; Matt Hargett (@syke) <a href="">June 19, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Edit: Welp. Screwed that up a bit.

Still comparing vrs to geometry culling...

VRS is not about geometry. How much simpler can that be stated???

 

[Silver Wattle]

This was never a concern for those of us that do not have a bias against playstation.

 

[Valued Gamer]

I have seen it said that because VRS and Mesh Shaders were developed by AMD and Microsoft jointly for RDNA 2, Sony wasn't able to get both on their GPU.
Could explain why it is missing.
Whether Sony has gone and done their own version I guess we will find out at a later date.