Garani
Member
No they don't. And we have seen what happened the moment that Microsoft imposed Windows on the Nokia phones: they drawed the brand into the ground.
Windows is a problem.
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Sony custom RDNA2 have their own VRS and mesh shading - Cerny and Naughty dog
- Thread starter geordiemp
- Start date
No they don't. And we have seen what happened the moment that Microsoft imposed Windows on the Nokia phones: they drawed the brand into the ground.
Windows is a problem.
Gaelyon
Gold Member
Sony hired AMD, but they choose to implement their own design for some parts. If they take this route it seem logical to think they believe their solution is better, if not why the trouble ? You don't custom your cutting edge, flagship hardware to make it less efficient.
Maybe if Sony was transparent and open about the feature and chip like the ps4 none of this would happen. When you are being a secret squirrels people will accuse you of things. The wait for the rdna 2 reveal and nda excuse is over. It's time for a full look at it like Microsoft has shown.
megreotsugua
Banned
or Checkerboard VRS perhaps? Can checkerboarding possibly be applied to different parts of the screen?
Wandering Leopard
Member
I think people are failing to understand that the capabilities AMD talked about yesterday are just features of DX12u; which means any developer (or Sony for that matter) could write their own similar versions - as long as they don't simply copy exactly how MS has with DX12u.
Additionally, I don't think we'll ever know for sure what's in Sony's GNM/GNMX libraries because Sony has a history of not publicly revealing this type of information.
Additionally, I don't think we'll ever know for sure what's in Sony's GNM/GNMX libraries because Sony has a history of not publicly revealing this type of information.
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onesvenus
Member
No, it hasn't. It's always said that Cerny did something in PS4 Pro that influenced AMD's roadmap but there's an interview with Cerny just released after the PS4 Pro launch that dismisses that rumour saying that they looked at what was available in AMDs own roadmap and took it. Nothing else.
Serious. They talked about their in-depth collaboration with Microsoft in creating RDNA2 in yesterday's conference. As expected there was nothing about Cerny or the supposed Sony partnership
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Lol, people was saying PS5 hadn't raytracing hardware until 1 month ago where Spiderman showed Raytracing. Cerny confirmed Raytracing several months ago.
J_Gamer.exe
Member
There is allot of mis understanding on RDNA2 features, especially where Sony wanted their own VRS and own mesh shader type operations.
See below. Hopefully puts the confusion to rest why Sony used their own methods rather than standard AMD. Its called customisation.
Mark Evan Cerny Inventions, Patents and Patent Applications - Justia Patents Search
USPTO patent applications submitted by and patents granted to Mark Evan Cernypatents.justia.com
These are Cerny and Naught dog.
Surely Sony should have sacked off their best in class io unit and gone with direct storage and SFS etc so they could brag about having the same things a pc will use. 'the same capabilities' amd said... as Microsoft bragged.
It doesn't matter that what Sony produced is exclusive, built only for ps5 not pc therefore better for a console and ingenious, they could have bragged about terminology
This is so dumb lol.
martino
Member
one of the usage is to not lost processing where it's not needing that much for example when in motion
in a good looking game (not infinite) if you don't see it in motion who care if cherry picked still image reveal it ?
ex : here https://fr.slideshare.net/IntelSoft...the-user-experience-in-real-time-game-engines
because of warring and photo bull-shot mode creating image representing conditions you will never see or less than 1% of your gameplay, people lost sight of what matter. It needs to be good and fluid when you are playing the dam game.
Whatever what still images reveal.
And of course VRS will success or fail more or less attempting to do that.
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Wandering Leopard
Member
Sony are not obligated to do what MS does. While I do think it's interesting for people who post on gaming forums, the only thing that matters to the average gamer is the end result - the games.
And at least for now, the most impressive looking next gen games we've seen are on PS5 (however their devs are going about it seems to be working).
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Hendrick's
If only my penis was as big as my GamerScore!
Garani
Member
This is petty.
Demon2blades
Member
Other people have confirmed it though to my knowledge both are custom and none of them are 100% copy's of what amd consider full pc rDNA 2 but sony has been quiet on that front admittedly .
From what they have shown though we have already seen great looking games from Sony with some games having next gen graphics and gameplay mechanics while the same can't be said about the other side as much and we have the info from third party's performance targets between the two consoles tells me there's not much in it at all and this is much ado about nothing imo.
One or 2 warriors wow lol. All Sony has to do is put on hot chips style event and no more questions or crap. You can try to defend them being secret squirrels all you want but that is the cause of this crap. The ps4 had almost none because they were open and transparent from February launch year
Epic Sax CEO
Banned
People will foolish repeat that this is not RDNA2... It's so annoying. This don't means that the PS5's GPU have less, on the contrary, it probably have more. Additional instructions like how Sony asked AMD to backport Rapid Packed Math (16+16bit) and add ID Buffer into the PS4 Pro's GPU.
TheAmazingSpiderMan
Member
hahaha oh man, this ladies and gentlemen, is the epitome of an armchair dev.
The guy was apart of the team who engineered the PS5 and you are??
Mr. PlayStation
Member
There is allot of mis understanding on RDNA2 features, especially where Sony wanted their own VRS and own mesh shader type operations.
See below. Hopefully puts the confusion to rest why Sony used their own methods rather than standard AMD. Its called customisation.
Mark Evan Cerny Inventions, Patents and Patent Applications - Justia Patents Search
USPTO patent applications submitted by and patents granted to Mark Evan Cerny
These are Cerny and Naught dog.
If any of the above patents makes its way to the GPU desktop lineup, it means the collaboration was a success, according to Mark Cerny.
Cerny said PS5 was RDNA 2, and what happened here? 1 or 2 warriors too?
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geordiemp
Member
Well if my brain thinks as fast as yours, maybe it does take all night to type the words mark cerny patent into google.
Thank god I am not you. Anyway I have a day job to do, so back to real work. You keep your good work up.
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SatansReverence
Hipster Princess
Yet he compares a form of dynamic resolution scaling to geometry culling.
FranXico
Member
Are you sure those are the ones who are in for a surprise?
New Yorks Finest
Banned
There is allot of mis understanding on RDNA2 features, especially where Sony wanted their own VRS and own mesh shader type operations.
See below. Hopefully puts the confusion to rest why Sony used their own methods rather than standard AMD. Its called customisation.
Mark Evan Cerny Inventions, Patents and Patent Applications - Justia Patents Search
USPTO patent applications submitted by and patents granted to Mark Evan Cerny
These are Cerny and Naught dog.
Hol up, hold up..first of all, who tha @#$% you be?! You work for Sony, engineer with Masters degree?? Before folks can actually take you seriously.
All you plastic warriors wait for an official deep dive video comparisons from REAL licensed engineers, with REAL tech videos professionally put together........You feel me...Geordie?
Calm your Sony panties, and relax spreading bs.
The Alien
Banned
Sony used the full compliment of RDNA2....except for these 2 features. They decided to use a custom solution. Interesting.
Back in June, Digital Foundry claims PS5 doesn't exhibit any evidence of VRS(Variable Rate Shading) from PS5 showcase (per Gaf thread). Were they not able to detect this at all or not present at all.
Wonder how that impacts 3rd party development.
Back in June, Digital Foundry claims PS5 doesn't exhibit any evidence of VRS(Variable Rate Shading) from PS5 showcase (per Gaf thread). Were they not able to detect this at all or not present at all.
Wonder how that impacts 3rd party development.
Geki-D
Banned
An odd thing to say. I'd fear more for the Xbox crowd's mental state when they come to that exact same conclusion and realize those extra TFs they love to flaunt aren't actually doing much of anything.
Knitted Knight
Banned
I agree with the sentiment however I don't believe with the ultimatum kind of push (sucks for enthusiast that's all). This is the same rationale for the FUD we saw before of: Is the PS5 real? Why hasn't Sony shown BC? etc...
Different marketing departments this time around - clearly a different marketing strategy. Different head at the top. Things get done differently.
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Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Until you read the actually article and the patents quoted and then reopen the thread
.Still find it interesting how 2.5x SFS improved efficiency was NOT against PRT/Tiled Resources or other virtual texturing implementation, but against “raw HW capability”. As MS also said when describing SF and SFS being incremental improvements over PRT to make it easier and more efficient to implement.
Krisprolls
Banned
Wow, clearly you should help him, obviously he doesn't know what he says, he only helped building the PS5 after all. We need more people like you. When you're finished please tell the NASA engineers how to launch rockets, they need you too.
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Then people can't really complain when there is misinformation. When the companies hide information click bait Insiders ect will happily fill that void.
Knitted Knight
Banned
Yes. That's on their marketing department head Eric Lempel and ultimately on Jim to decide on his performance. They can't complain on some stuff.
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Evilms
Banned
Geki-D
Banned
None of this stuff was known when the console opened for pre-orders and seemingly already had as many orders in 12 hours as the PS4 did in 12 weeks so I think Sony are doing ok with that "misinformation" out there. I get that to pedantic tech-heads this stuff is important, but 98% of the people who actually buy a console don't give a fuck, and Sony knows this. That's why they don't spend any time explaining it when they have other stuff to announce that people really care about, like, you know, games.
I'm not saying it's not interesting to know this stuff, but for Sony these details are super low priority when it comes to promoting the PS5 and shifting units.
longdi
Banned
Maybe it is cheaper faster for them? Maybe it has to go this way because of custom io.
Just because 'custom' don't mean only 1-way more performant. It can also mean workaround certain short comings.
When will Cerny do a bares all interview with DF?
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ZywyPL
Banned
Patented =/= implemented, patents can be held for decades before they are actually utilized, if ever. But I'll give you an A for the effort for this desperate narrative spin to counter the yesterday's news, took you some time, but here we are. Although it's rather confusing when one time we hear it's RDNA3 features and the other day it's Sony's custom solution, which one is it then? Can you people meet on Discord or something and make up your mind, and follow one, unified narrative please?
longdi
Banned
And according to OP, he had been on a crusade to build up yesterday Amd event, we were supposed to finally hear the secret sauce results of collaboration between mark and lisa team!
All i heard yesterday wrt to collaboration was MS MS DX12u DXR MS. MS of course returned the favor later.
The name 'Sony' was only heard at their opening speech. In vein of `thanks for using our tech`
Goes to show why he has to revisit old patent discussion, which most have attributed to PsVR origins. He didn't even have the decency to add the links after repeated askings
Really makes one wonder what's his purpose in all this...
All i heard yesterday wrt to collaboration was MS MS DX12u DXR MS. MS of course returned the favor later.
The name 'Sony' was only heard at their opening speech. In vein of `thanks for using our tech`
Goes to show why he has to revisit old patent discussion, which most have attributed to PsVR origins. He didn't even have the decency to add the links after repeated askings
Really makes one wonder what's his purpose in all this...
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sobaka770
Banned
Ok here's what I get from all of this.
MICROSOFT
- Has DirectX hardware on AMD chip and stock VRS which is "Full RDNA"
SONY
- Doesn't use DirectX and has custom Geometry Engine chip
For console warriors let me summarize: Sony never has and probably never will use DirectX in favor of its own libraries/Vulkan. They are a hardware company and know how to write good low-level code and optimise it. MS is a software company that writes mostly code across a lot of hardware variants and their strength is not optimisation to the iron but in writing code that works across different hardware configurations. The upside is that Sony can come up with better customer solutions and really showcase the power of its API in console exclusives. Microsoft uses DirectX which is unified across Xbox and PC. DirectX is not necessarily optimised to iron to the same extent as it works across platforms and therefore must have somewhat higher abstraction level. In practice this means that since RDNA2.0 is part of PC graphics cards, the DirectX part which is useless to Sony is a natural part for Microsoft because AMD is interested in pushing its presence on PC. It also means that Sony probably has better custom low-level solution which will show in its first-party offerings.
It also explain well how MS has a much easier PC porting and backwards compat process as by having DirectX it simply abstracts the hardware and can scale up the older games. Sony needed to test its games on PS5 because their non-generic APIs need testing when moving from one set of hardware to another. That's why Sony cannot just upscale all its games that easily without patches and why porting even H:ZD was a process for them.
It is a tradeoff in software space between maximum optimisation vs cross-compatibility. At hardware level MS can claim full RDNA but it's meaningless - Sony just doesn't NEED all the hardware build for PC and MS DX optimisers, they have their own.
MICROSOFT
- Has DirectX hardware on AMD chip and stock VRS which is "Full RDNA"
SONY
- Doesn't use DirectX and has custom Geometry Engine chip
For console warriors let me summarize: Sony never has and probably never will use DirectX in favor of its own libraries/Vulkan. They are a hardware company and know how to write good low-level code and optimise it. MS is a software company that writes mostly code across a lot of hardware variants and their strength is not optimisation to the iron but in writing code that works across different hardware configurations. The upside is that Sony can come up with better customer solutions and really showcase the power of its API in console exclusives. Microsoft uses DirectX which is unified across Xbox and PC. DirectX is not necessarily optimised to iron to the same extent as it works across platforms and therefore must have somewhat higher abstraction level. In practice this means that since RDNA2.0 is part of PC graphics cards, the DirectX part which is useless to Sony is a natural part for Microsoft because AMD is interested in pushing its presence on PC. It also means that Sony probably has better custom low-level solution which will show in its first-party offerings.
It also explain well how MS has a much easier PC porting and backwards compat process as by having DirectX it simply abstracts the hardware and can scale up the older games. Sony needed to test its games on PS5 because their non-generic APIs need testing when moving from one set of hardware to another. That's why Sony cannot just upscale all its games that easily without patches and why porting even H:ZD was a process for them.
It is a tradeoff in software space between maximum optimisation vs cross-compatibility. At hardware level MS can claim full RDNA but it's meaningless - Sony just doesn't NEED all the hardware build for PC and MS DX optimisers, they have their own.
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I think that might be the idea.
Jaguar Victory
Member
I mean you can do RayTracing on traditional GPU's for instance, but without proper hardware acceleration your results will vary.
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
I thought this was an official statement :S
At the end of the day this is still speculation, and it'd be nice if these features were explicitly delved into by Sony proper, like they did back in March in with the SSD, Tempest Engine, and the cache scrubbers. Lack of transparency ultimately isn't a good thing on this note because it just lets theories run wild.
Also like I was saying last night, "customization" doesn't mean all that much in the end. It just means differentiation. There's no quality inherently attached to that. The customization could be better, could be just as good as the default, or it could even be worst. We don't know. But you'd have to understand what the default is in the first place.
Now I see a lot of people using "standard AMD" or "standard RDNA" like badges of shame; it's a retroactive way of trying to weigh the scales (whatever those scales are) in their favor. But ultimately, it's silly. And I don't know if people who do that realize it or not, but that's also them indirectly shitting on AMD's own solutions. Yet, if those solutions were so bad, why would Sony have worked with them on the APU in the first place? See how this creates a conundrum? By that measure, Sony could've simply developed the APU themselves, but they haven't done that in over a decade.
It's just time to let "it" go. Wait for official statements; finding patents and research papers are nice and help a lot with speculation obviously, but ultimately still need some official details and statements to help truly tie them in as something that's being applied in practice in a working product. All of these companies, like Sony and Microsoft, have a ton of patents for technologies that won't be in the next-gen systems in any way, shape, or form. Should we keep thinking they're present though simply because the patents and papers exist? At some point, you have to have a cutoff, and these systems are coming out in two weeks.
At the end of the day this is still speculation, and it'd be nice if these features were explicitly delved into by Sony proper, like they did back in March in with the SSD, Tempest Engine, and the cache scrubbers. Lack of transparency ultimately isn't a good thing on this note because it just lets theories run wild.
Also like I was saying last night, "customization" doesn't mean all that much in the end. It just means differentiation. There's no quality inherently attached to that. The customization could be better, could be just as good as the default, or it could even be worst. We don't know. But you'd have to understand what the default is in the first place.
Now I see a lot of people using "standard AMD" or "standard RDNA" like badges of shame; it's a retroactive way of trying to weigh the scales (whatever those scales are) in their favor. But ultimately, it's silly. And I don't know if people who do that realize it or not, but that's also them indirectly shitting on AMD's own solutions. Yet, if those solutions were so bad, why would Sony have worked with them on the APU in the first place? See how this creates a conundrum? By that measure, Sony could've simply developed the APU themselves, but they haven't done that in over a decade.
It's just time to let "it" go. Wait for official statements; finding patents and research papers are nice and help a lot with speculation obviously, but ultimately still need some official details and statements to help truly tie them in as something that's being applied in practice in a working product. All of these companies, like Sony and Microsoft, have a ton of patents for technologies that won't be in the next-gen systems in any way, shape, or form. Should we keep thinking they're present though simply because the patents and papers exist? At some point, you have to have a cutoff, and these systems are coming out in two weeks.
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EverydayBeast
thinks Halo Infinite is a new graphical benchmark
RDNA2, Ray Tracing, Mesh shading will run the show next gen.
