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Returnal Will Support Ray Tracing and 60 Frames Per Second at 4K Resolution

VFXVeteran

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I dont care for the observations he makes. I saw the footage and he cannot manipulate the image being rendered by PS5. Some light sources are not propagated wich implies choices were made in implementing RT, as expected in any game.

Timestamped: 6:07
Just wait for my analysis. All of these guys are guessing without knowing the actual math and algorithm behind RT at all. I'll explain it and give details from how it should be implemented and compare it to what we are seeing.
 
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Bo_Hazem

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No. Not at all man.



I like this fucking actor, lol.
 
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spyshagg

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Just wait for my analysis. All of these guys are guessing without knowing the actual math and algorithm behind RT at all.

I appreciate the sentiment, but being again true to the method of reading posts diagonally, you missed the example I gave was pertinent to actual video observation and not what the youtube guy had to say.

Some lightsources are not being casted not even as a regular dynamic light. Not a big issue. Just an observation.


 
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VFXVeteran

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I appreciate the sentiment, but being again true to the method of reading posts diagonally, you missed the example I gave was pertinent to actual video observation and not what the youtube guy had to say.

Some lightsources are not being casted not even as a regular dynamic light. Not a big issue. Just an observation.


I wasn't trying to dismiss what you are saying because that is absolutely true. Those particles are not illuminating the ground because they aren't lightsources at all. They are just FX with a glow shader put on them. My point is that even if they were light sources, it would be DIRECT light sources - i.e. like a lantern. They still wouldn't constitute global illumination which is NOT a direct lightsource but an INDIRECT lightsource.
 
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Bo_Hazem

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I wasn't trying to dismiss what you are saying because that is absolutely true. Those particles are not illuminating the ground because they aren't lightsources at all. They are just FX with a glow shader put on them. My point is that even if they were light sources, it would be DIRECT light sources - i.e. like a lantern. They still wouldn't constitute global illumination which is NOT a direct lightsource but an INDIRECT lightsource.

Have you identified any signs of RT GI in the game though?
 

VFXVeteran

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Have you identified any signs of RT GI in the game though?
I wouldn't guess at all. I dont' have the game. People who are demoing this stuff is actually playing the game. That's not a good way to do an analysis. You first have to know how the technique works, then you have to look for that algorithm in the game by intentionally NOT playing it. You have to explore and test things.
 

Bo_Hazem

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Salalah, Oman
I wouldn't guess at all. I dont' have the game. People who are demoing this stuff is actually playing the game. That's not a good way to do an analysis. You first have to know how the technique works, then you have to look for that algorithm in the game by intentionally NOT playing it. You have to explore and test things.

Get the game and share your findings! Maybe you should start doing some stuff on youtube if you got the time for it.
 

Lysandros

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I was just trying the Control analysis technique of how Series X can handle higher frame rates on RT mode when photo mode was enabled compared to PS5.
In the most GPU intensive scene in that photo mode, 'corridor of death' with all that transparencies and RT reflections, the difference was a mere 1 FPS (something like 36 to 37 FPS). PS5 has his own advantages in matter of RT performance. The GPU's in these machines are near identical in capability.
 
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NXGamer

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RT GI has nothing to do with procedural geometry. Lighting isn't tied to geometry. The renderer doesn't care what gets drawn, it's still triangles at the end of the day.

I will look for this to learn at what capacity the RT GI is being used.
I know, but GI bounce does, you will find it hard to enable Light map allocation or point light placement to fake GI when the position of said geometry is built and defined at run-time.

RT means this can be done simply at runtime and not have to worry about faking it.
 

Bo_Hazem

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1440p DLSS is very different from 4K DLSS. What you mean is "native 1440p reconstructed to 4K DLSS".

The whole conversation that people know what DLSS is, what dynamic 4K is. If you follow the conversation you'll get the point. Calling dynamic 4K not transparent is like calling DLSS 4K not transparent and other reconstruction methods. People used to it to be called "Native 4K" when it's native.
 
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Bernd Lauert

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The whole conversation that people know what DLSS is, what dynamic 4K is. If you follow the conversation you'll get the point. Calling dynamic 4K not transparent is like calling DLSS 4K not transparent and other reconstruction methods. People used to it to be called "Native 4K" when it's native.
I disagree. When someone says "runs at 4K" it should mean native. That's why Nvidia writes "4K DLSS" and not just "4K" when they mean it's reconstructed with DLSS, which makes their naming transparent.

4K should mean 4K.
 
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Alebrije

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I disagree. When someone says "runs at 4K" it should mean native. That's why Nvidia writes "4K DLSS" and not just "4K" when they mean it's reconstructed with DLSS, which makes their naming transparent.

4K should mean 4K.
Are you telling PS5 its not a 8K console?

 

DenchDeckard

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Even if it is 1440p, 60 FPS + RT is pretty magical.

Even Spider-Man Miles Morales was at 1080p 60 RT. And Insomniac are pretty much technical wizards!

Wait a minute....miles morales is 1080p in the 60fps raytrace mode? Gtfo I don't believe you! I played the majority of the game in that mode as soon as it released and it looked amazing. Better than 1080p imo. Insomniac are wizards...I thought it was 1440p
 
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assurdum

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I dont care for the observations he makes. I saw the footage and he cannot manipulate the image being rendered by PS5. Some light sources are not propagated wich implies choices were made in implementing RT, as expected in any game.

Timestamped: 6:07
I'll be wait a more proper analysis before to take some conclusion. And a selective raytracing is not bad thing at all.
 
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Heisenberg007

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Wait a minute....miles morales is 1080p in the 60fps raytrace mode? Gtfo I don't believe you! I played the majority of the game in that mode as soon as it released and it looked amazing. Better than 1080p imo. Insomniac are wizards...I thought it was 1440p
As another person pointed out that it is dynamic res (from 1080p to 1440p with RT). But the key thing is Insomniac's Temporal Injection technique. That is pretty awesome and makes the game look higher resolution.
 

01011001

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I dont care for the observations he makes. I saw the footage and he cannot manipulate the image being rendered by PS5. Some light sources are not propagated wich implies choices were made in implementing RT, as expected in any game.

Timestamped: 6:07

yes. the rt lighting in this is extremely hard to catch. almost no dynamic light seems to actually use it and the GI is hard to spot because of how dark the game generally is
 

VFXVeteran

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I know, but GI bounce does, you will find it hard to enable Light map allocation or point light placement to fake GI when the position of said geometry is built and defined at run-time.
This procedural generation doesn't seem to be done on-the-fly. It seems to be on a per-level basis. Doing it the right way would require iterating through every single object in the scene, building a bounding hierarchy and testing for bounced light on every single triangle that is within a neighboring distance from every other triangle. I seriously doubt they are doing this - especially without DLSS and a powerful GPU.

The challenge would be finding what they did and where it's done. I have a feeling that they use it in the most crude way imaginable as it's clearly not obvious in the gameplay footage. If I can't locate where it's being used, then it's a non-factor in the game's overall visual look.
 

NXGamer

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This procedural generation doesn't seem to be done on-the-fly. It seems to be on a per-level basis. Doing it the right way would require iterating through every single object in the scene, building a bounding hierarchy and testing for bounced light on every single triangle that is within a neighboring distance from every other triangle. I seriously doubt they are doing this - especially without DLSS and a powerful GPU.

The challenge would be finding what they did and where it's done. I have a feeling that they use it in the most crude way imaginable as it's clearly not obvious in the gameplay footage. If I can't locate where it's being used, then it's a non-factor in the game's overall visual look.
Do you have access to the code? how do you know it is not "done on the fly" as you put it. Or are you assuming this in your statement?

They do not need to calculate at a per triangle bases, this could be vertex based lighting within the BVH and the procedural calculation would not change this as the could build the index based on the elements they use to construct each piece of the set. From here the Ray Trace is done per scene and refences the BVH ID and then the light source emitter, plus many other options we have not but Housemarque have thought of.
 

Bo_Hazem

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Do you have access to the code? how do you know it is not "done on the fly" as you put it. Or are you assuming this in your statement?

They do not need to calculate at a per triangle bases, this could be vertex based lighting within the BVH and the procedural calculation would not change this as the could build the index based on the elements they use to construct each piece of the set. From here the Ray Trace is done per scene and refences the BVH ID and then the light source emitter, plus many other options we have not but Housemarque have thought of.

Have you got the preview copy of Returnal? Also, are good or need to git gud? :messenger_winking_tongue: Can't wait for your review/analysis. Problem is it's confusing as you post on IGN now. How about you post a link on your Youtube channel?

Warm regards, mate.
 
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It's probably never coming to PC. that's been the case with all Housemarque's games for Sony.

Not saying things can't change at any time. but seriously don't get your hopes up.

I think if it does come to PC it's because Sony wants it there. But I honestly have no idea how long that's going to take.

W Werewolfgrandma if you really want to play the game the you should just buy the PS5 version. It's better than waiting for a version that might never come.
 
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Clear

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Just wait for my analysis. All of these guys are guessing without knowing the actual math and algorithm behind RT at all. I'll explain it and give details from how it should be implemented and compare it to what we are seeing.

The fundamental math is just ray/plane intersection testing, so there is no actual "how it should be implemented"!

Its all in the application, which need not involve anything graphics related whatsoever or be accomplished in real-time.
 

VFXVeteran

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Do you have access to the code? how do you know it is not "done on the fly" as you put it. Or are you assuming this in your statement?
It's an assumption of course. Why build the geometry on the fly in a level? The levels seem pretty static.
They do not need to calculate at a per triangle bases, this could be vertex based lighting within the BVH and the procedural calculation
Per-triangle is vertex based. It's 3 shader calculations per triangle.

would not change this as the could build the index based on the elements they use to construct each piece of the set. From here the Ray Trace is done per scene and refences the BVH ID and then the light source emitter, plus many other options we have not but Housemarque have thought of.
Yea, that would be basically a 'baked solution' similar to GI light probes. We need to find out which light sources are "tagged" with a GI light emitter. In order to find that out, we have to know which things are indeed lights. Some of the FX in the various previews don't even cast illumination.

Your analysis of RE8 demo demonstrates proper GI bounce. I see nothing in any preview of Returnal that mimics this behavior. We'll know more when it comes out next week.
 
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VFXVeteran

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The fundamental math is just ray/plane intersection testing, so there is no actual "how it should be implemented"!
Many games approximate the real math behind these graphics algorithms because they are too expensive for hardware in realtime. We all know this. For example, putting in an ambient term into the rendering equation is wrong. Moreover it's not energy-conserving at all. And yet, that's what games do to simulate proper GI. There are numerous examples of this. So there is an "how it should be implemented" vs. how dev try to approximate it.
 
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I think if it does come to PC it's because Sony wants it there. But I honestly have no idea how long that's going to take.

W Werewolfgrandma if you really want to play the game the you should just buy the PS5 version. It's better than waiting for a version that might never come.
I don't like spending more then 20$ on a game, let alone buying a console that will get very little use just to play a few games. I hope Sony just starts putting more and more games on PC. I'm fine with waiting a year or 2. Especially since I never buy new games anyway.
Edit
Example. I just caved and got EA access on Steam for a month to play Jedi fallen order which I've wanted to play since release. Was tough for me to pay the 5$ haha. Really enjoying the game though.
 
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I don't like spending more then 20$ on a game, let alone buying a console that will get very little use just to play a few games. I hope Sony just starts putting more and more games on PC. I'm fine with waiting a year or 2. Especially since I never buy new games anyway.

I take advantage of steam sales as well but sometimes it takes a while for a game to drop that low. And with consoles the situation is even worse. I doubt that you will be able to play the game at that price point anytime soon. And if Sony really is in charge of the PC versions release it might be a very long time before you even see the game on that platform if it ever happens.
 
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I take advantage of steam sales as well but sometimes it takes a while for a game to drop that low. And with consoles the situation is even worse. I doubt that you will be able to play the game at that price point anytime soon. And if Sony really is in charge of the PC versions release it might be a very long time before you even see the game on that platform if it ever happens.
Well if not I'll just miss out I guess. I do honestly think we will see many more Sony games on PC though. The cost to port is pretty low compared to the sales they get, and I doubt many PC only gamers were going to buy a ps5 for a few games anyway. It's just too much free money for them to keep turning down I think. Either way returnal looks like great fun, but I don't see the hype around the graphics. Obviously it looks good, just not great to me. I look for fun before graphics every time anyway so it wouldn't stop me from playing.
I loved resogun.
 

NXGamer

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It's an assumption of course. Why build the geometry on the fly in a level? The levels seem pretty static.

Per-triangle is vertex based. It's 3 shader calculations per triangle.


Yea, that would be basically a 'baked solution' similar to GI light probes. We need to find out which light sources are "tagged" with a GI light emitter. In order to find that out, we have to know which things are indeed lights. Some of the FX in the various previews don't even cast illumination.

Your analysis of RE8 demo demonstrates proper GI bounce. I see nothing in any preview of Returnal that mimics this behavior. We'll know more when it comes out next week.
Run time is a level load, it will not be as you walk through the level.

Yes, but once you have sampled a triangle and got the BVH, you can quickly ignore any other Local Intersections for that object and calculate the Normals of the surface from the vertex vectors. The cost on static objects does need to be as high as dynamic one.

It is not a "baked solution" is the output to the objects is based on the dynamic light source and dynamic object placement, this is when they bake it into the surface via a texture, decal or light map.

The light sources that are emitters is the key here as the more they trace back to the more expensive it will be.
 

assurdum

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Well if not I'll just miss out I guess. I do honestly think we will see many more Sony games on PC though. The cost to port is pretty low compared to the sales they get, and I doubt many PC only gamers were going to buy a ps5 for a few games anyway. It's just too much free money for them to keep turning down I think. Either way returnal looks like great fun, but I don't see the hype around the graphics. Obviously it looks good, just not great to me. I look for fun before graphics every time anyway so it wouldn't stop me from playing.
I loved resogun.
You don't see reason of the hype around 4k DRS 60 FPS with raytracing on console? ....ok.