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Microsoft is finally clarifying the situation regarding future Bethesda games

ManaByte

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I seen fanboy Matt’s post from era saying trying to make this move look bad by saying this supports Trumps family because he’s on zenimaxs board. Something along those lines. Undercover Sony shill
dan marino holy shit GIF
 

Aguero9320

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Was busy yesterday so thought I'd catch up with this thread this morning. Oh man. It's virtually unreadable :messenger_tears_of_joy:

I don't understand being this upset about something that's easily fixable. Just buy an Xbox and look forward to playing great games on both systems, instead of contorting yourself over contracts and perceived vagueness and desperate hopes that Phil Spencer is being duplicitous. Even if you can't afford it now, save up. Put 20 of whatever your currency is away a week and you'll have one by the time these games hit.

I'd rather not own a PS5, but have one because I know there will be things I want to play that I would feel sad to miss out on. Not many, but enough for me to fix the problem and have a better day.
 

Free will knight

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That whole legacy thing Phil Spencer was talking about is no doubt referring to Doom Eternal's PS5 upgrade. Which is why it was mentioned in the same sentence as contractual agreements that they need to go do.

While I think IDtech 7 is an awesome engine I hope Phil doesn't follow EA's mistake with frostbite. I do think IDtech could be a good replacement for studios that use unreal engine.
 
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Lone Wolf

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Do you use Windows 10?

Because if you do (which I'm most certain you do), Microsoft still sees money from you: your Windows license + all the juicy telemetry from the games and the OS itself.

Let's not kid ourselves: the moment we use Windows 10 (any version except for Enterprise), we give Microsoft our pennies, in one way or another.
Microsoft makes money in lots of ways most people don’t realize. Did you buy a Sony exclusive game like Spider-Man or Horizon? Microsoft made money on those purchases.
 

Mmnow

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I know a lot of trash has been talked in relation to this acquisition, and I’m not defending any of that. I’m not saying anything is gospel, just responding to the question of why do some people think games might remain multi-platform. Doesn’t mean they’re right, but also doesn’t mean that the question is wrong either. The Mojang deal is a reasonable parallel, at face value it looked expensive but they’ve made it work by keeping it available to every platform known to man and milking the fuck out of it.

The fact of the matter is that that $7.5 billion IS a lot of money, MSFT IS a public company and you can still make reasonable assumptions about the economics of a deal.

We do not know that the Zenimax deal will pay for itself, it may not. It may be a spectacular failure. These things happen. It has happened to MSFT before.

And whilst we don’t now exactly what period MSFT expect a return on their specific investment in Zenimax we do know generally - from their annual financial statements - what they would typically expect and it’s 5-6 years for this type of investment, so yes this generation is probably the best guess.

We also don't know exactly what Zenimax's financials were pre-acquisition as they were a private company but we do know that the majority of the sales of their major recent titles were on PS - e.g. something in the order of 58% of Fallout 4 sales were on PS4. It IS an assumption, but not a wild one, that losing half your sales might be just enough to flip you into loss making territory.

Microsoft will do whatever they choose to do, they have that luxury, but if the numbers suck there will be consequences.
I don't think the question is wrong. I wrote a long post about this on the Xbox OT thread the other day - there was always going to be room for doubt on a purchase this big, and MS hasn't exactly been clear on its position on things pre-Bethesda.

But I think it's easy to talk yourself into a position and use "makes sense to me" as a means to justify the wildest things (and you can see people are still doing it here). If you take the base statement of "First party games are usually exclusive and Microsoft isn't hurting for cash", anything else seems like reaching, especially when it falls down to concern over their bottom line. That base statement has proven absolutely true.

I'm not gonna come back to you on your points, because that wasn't the point of my first post. I don't want to be rude, but it's done now. We know there's a line - most games will be exclusive.

But, ultimately, that was the safe bet anyway, and there's a mountain of difference between "Will they all be exclusive?" and "THEY WILL BE EXCLUSIVE BECAUSE MICROSOFT CAN'T AFFORD..."
 

Hezekiah

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They would rise, but it's no longer MS's strategy to do so. You make the money with software, not hardware. So MS doesn't care anymore about selling as much hardware as possible. Sony does and the Sony fanboys even more.
You make plenty of money with hardware - as evidenced by Nintendo and Sony right now.

And the more hardware out there with the capability of running your software the better. Your post reeks of fanboy distortion.
 
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Reality Czar

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Bernkastel

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Mmnow

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You make plenty of money with hardware - as evidenced by Nintendo and Sony right now.

And the more hardware out there with the capability of running your software the better. Your post reeks of fanboy distortion.
You're not wrong, but you're taking a very absolutist view here.


Microsoft are trying to create an ecosystem where MTX and DLC, plus subscription fees, plus reductions on digital titles, bring in more money than they do naturally. They're doing that across consoles, PC and mobile (and eventually television apps). There are more PCs, TVs and mobile phones capable of running these games today/eventually than there will be any console in the next generation.

That's not to say Nintendo and Sony are doing it wrong, but it's a new approach with the potential to do extremely well.

Keep in mind that NIntendo - and to a much lesser extent Sony - are very much tied to the two smallest triangles in that pie chart.
 
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Hezekiah

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You're not wrong, but you're taking a very absolutist view here.


Microsoft are trying to create an ecosystem where MTX and DLC, plus subscription fees, plus reductions on digital titles, bring in more money than they do naturally. They're doing that across consoles, PC and mobile (and eventually television apps). There are more PCs, TVs and mobile phones capable of running these games today/eventually than there will be any console in the next generation.

That's not to say Nintendo and Sony are doing it wrong, but it's a new approach with the potential to do extremely well.

Keep in mind that NIntendo - and to a much lesser extent Sony - are very much tied to the two smallest triangles in that pie chart.
I partly agre with you, though a lot of that MTX money is from games like Fortnite. I really don't think extensive MTX in AAA games (especially from a platform-holder) will go down well at all - we've seen that with Ubisoft games for example. Though clearly Microsoft has delved into this with Gears and Forza for example.

PS4 is selling for £259 on Amazon and will continue to sell for a long time to come meaning hardware will carry on playing its part.

AAA and even AA games on phones/tablets? Can't see that taking off any time soon to be honest.
 
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REDRZA MWS

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You make plenty of money with hardware - as evidenced by Nintendo and Sony right now.

And the more hardware out there with the capability of running your software the better. Your post reeks of fanboy distortion.
MS destroyed that when they finally fully incorporated PC into their mix. PC plus Xbox consoles dominate install base. They now have the largest install base to sell games, subscriptions, digital content etc, than anyone else.
 

quest

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Was busy yesterday so thought I'd catch up with this thread this morning. Oh man. It's virtually unreadable :messenger_tears_of_joy:

I don't understand being this upset about something that's easily fixable. Just buy an Xbox and look forward to playing great games on both systems, instead of contorting yourself over contracts and perceived vagueness and desperate hopes that Phil Spencer is being duplicitous. Even if you can't afford it now, save up. Put 20 of whatever your currency is away a week and you'll have one by the time these games hit.

I'd rather not own a PS5, but have one because I know there will be things I want to play that I would feel sad to miss out on. Not many, but enough for me to fix the problem and have a better day.

I think lots of people got entitled after the last generation of only having to buy one console. They forgot it has always been about multiple console ownership to get all the good stuff. If you want zenimax games get a cheap used series x in 3 years or the slim when it comes out. Then get the games you want at a cheap price and have fun.
 

Mmnow

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I partly agre with you, though a lot of that MTX money is from games like Fortnite. I really don't think extensive MTX in AAA games (especially from a platform-holder) will go down well at all - we've seen that with Ubisoft games for example. Though clearly Microsoft has delved into this with Gears and Forza for example.

PS4 is selling for £259 on Amazon and will continue to sell for a long time to come meaning hardware will carry on playing its part.

AAA and even AA games on phones/tablets? Can't see that taking off any time soon to be honest.
It's not necessarily about MTX in AAA games, as much as it's monetising titles for the long run. I haven't seen recent statistics and I don't have time to look for it, but there was a point where literally nobody was buying this crap - except for the people that do. I don't think many people will be buying Halo Infinite costumes, and DLC/new story content will likely be free or on Gamepass. But those that do buy it will collectively pay billions.

Tie it with rapidly rising subscriptions, DLC sales for other games and people buying titles they want to keep, and that's a lot of money.

On AAA/AA games on phones/tablets: it's a matter of software and tech. Get the tech to be as near perfect as possible and make sure the games are good, and people will use it.

It's an extreme example, but it makes the point: if you could play Fallout 5 at 4k and 120fps on your phone or tablet for $15 and it's a perfect console-like experience, and you had no other way of doing it, you wouldn't feel too hard up having to pay that $15. In fact, you'd probably save money and have the better experience. Scale that back, less people will be interested, but some still will, especially if it saves them hundreds of pounds on console sales.

Me? I'm with you - playing anything without a big screen TV feels immoral, but I say the same thing about movies and people look at me like I'm mad. There's an audience out there waiting to be told about this stuff, and then shown it works.
 

Hezekiah

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MS destroyed that when they finally fully incorporated PC into their mix. PC plus Xbox consoles dominate install base. They now have the largest install base to sell games, subscriptions, digital content etc, than anyone else.
Yet game sales don't bear that out.
 

DrAspirino

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AAA and even AA games on phones/tablets? Can't see that taking off any time soon to be honest.
Hahahaha... Call of Duty mobile would like to have a word with you: around 58 million downloads within the first 2 months of its launch. Imagine that just 10% of those downloads actually buys DLC and MTX: that would mean 5.8 million users paying. Not bad for a MOBILE AA game.

Mobile AA gaming took off a while ago with Fortnite and PUBG mobile, and they're ridiculously profitable. It's the people here in GaF that is completely blind to how big mobile gaming is.
 

Hezekiah

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It's not necessarily about MTX in AAA games, as much as it's monetising titles for the long run. I haven't seen recent statistics and I don't have time to look for it, but there was a point where literally nobody was buying this crap - except for the people that do. I don't think many people will be buying Halo Infinite costumes, and DLC/new story content will likely be free or on Gamepass. But those that do buy it will collectively pay billions.

Tie it with rapidly rising subscriptions, DLC sales for other games and people buying titles they want to keep, and that's a lot of money.

On AAA/AA games on phones/tablets: it's a matter of software and tech. Get the tech to be as near perfect as possible and make sure the games are good, and people will use it.

It's an extreme example, but it makes the point: if you could play Fallout 5 at 4k and 120fps on your phone or tablet for $15 and it's a perfect console-like experience, and you had no other way of doing it, you wouldn't feel too hard up having to pay that $15. In fact, you'd probably save money and have the better experience. Scale that back, less people will be interested, but some still will, especially if it saves them hundreds of pounds on console sales.

Me? I'm with you - playing anything without a big screen TV feels immoral, but I say the same thing about movies and people look at me like I'm mad. There's an audience out there waiting to be told about this stuff, and then shown it works.
Yeah GaaS will continue to rise, and makes sense given the huge development costs of games nowadays.

Reducing latency will definitely help streaming. But AAA gaming on such a tiny screen I'm sure simply won't appeal to many casuals. The 4K, 120fps looks great on paper, but just means far less than on a TV/monitor, the way these games are designed to be played. They will have struggle competing with the Candy Crushes and the Fortnites even for $15 a month.
 
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quest

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It's not necessarily about MTX in AAA games, as much as it's monetising titles for the long run. I haven't seen recent statistics and I don't have time to look for it, but there was a point where literally nobody was buying this crap - except for the people that do. I don't think many people will be buying Halo Infinite costumes, and DLC/new story content will likely be free or on Gamepass. But those that do buy it will collectively pay billions.

Tie it with rapidly rising subscriptions, DLC sales for other games and people buying titles they want to keep, and that's a lot of money.

On AAA/AA games on phones/tablets: it's a matter of software and tech. Get the tech to be as near perfect as possible and make sure the games are good, and people will use it.

It's an extreme example, but it makes the point: if you could play Fallout 5 at 4k and 120fps on your phone or tablet for $15 and it's a perfect console-like experience, and you had no other way of doing it, you wouldn't feel too hard up having to pay that $15. In fact, you'd probably save money and have the better experience. Scale that back, less people will be interested, but some still will, especially if it saves them hundreds of pounds on console sales.

Me? I'm with you - playing anything without a big screen TV feels immoral, but I say the same thing about movies and people look at me like I'm mad. There's an audience out there waiting to be told about this stuff, and then shown it works.

Streaming will be a supplement ie bonus for at least the next decade. Even Phil as admitted to that. It is for a quick session during a work break or in the car. The tech is way off for the most popular games like COD. It might be fine for a turn based game. That is why the series s exists to get people in to gamepass cheap as possible. Gamepass lives and dies on Xbox user base. PC users are loyal to lord gaben. Streaming only is like 9 people ask google.
 
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Hezekiah

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Hahahaha... Call of Duty mobile would like to have a word with you: around 58 million downloads within the first 2 months of its launch. Imagine that just 10% of those downloads actually buys DLC and MTX: that would mean 5.8 million users paying. Not bad for a MOBILE AA game.

Mobile AA gaming took off a while ago with Fortnite and PUBG mobile, and they're ridiculously profitable. It's the people here in GaF that is completely blind to how big mobile gaming is.
Maybe I should have clarified - I'm not talking about free-to-play games. In fact they're the exact reason why I think X-Cloud will struggle to take off.
 

Mmnow

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Streaming will be a supplement ie bonus for at least the next decade. Even Phil as admitted to that. It is for a quick session during a work break or in the car. The tech is way off for the most popular games like COD. It might be fine for a turn based game. That is why the series s exists to get people in to gamepass cheap as possible. Gamepass lives and dies on Xbox user base. PC users are loyal to lord gaben. Streaming only is like 9 people ask google.
I'm not sure that's true. I think it'll be supplemental in places where consoles are still doing well, but there are places today where cloud gaming is already taking off. Asia, in particular. It's also not crazy to suggest, with regional pricing, that cloud gaming might do well in countries that have good internet but low wages/small houses. That isn't as rare as you might think.

Series S exists, Microsoft says, because games consoles won't be getting cheap like they did in the past, and they wanted to bring in casuals from the start. I can believe that, but whether it turns out to be absolutely true is neither here nor there.

PC users have taken Forza Horizon 4 to 24m copies "sold".


That doesn't include Steam, where it was at the top of the charts.

My original point is that this is all part of an ecosystem that can exist together in a way that's far more efficient than on other consoles, and I think that just entirely proves it. Forza is a top tier racing game, but think of the numbers when Halo, The Elder Scrolls or Fallout follows this method.

Edit: I was slightly off on what that 24m figure represented. I've fixed it now.
 
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DrAspirino

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I'm not sure that's true. I think it'll be supplemental in places where consoles are still doing well, but there are places today where cloud gaming is already taking off. Asia, in particular. It's also not crazy to suggest, with regional pricing, that cloud gaming might do well in countries that have good internet but low wages/small houses. That isn't as rare as you might think.
Chile (and most of South America) are a great example of that. Here, for example, we have a kinda crappy international uplink to USA and Europe servers, but extremely good local and sub-continental connections, with most big companies having their cloud servers in Santiago (Chile), Buenos Aires (Argentina), and Sao Paulo (Brazil). Besides, FTTH is a thing here and we have it for as little as US$20 for symmetrical 300 mbps (heck, my ping to US servers never goes below 120 ms, but it never reaches over 60 ms when I connect to Sao Paulo servers).

Then you have Starlink, which is also coming to places like South America and rural USA, with pings that range around 30-50 ms, which is good enough for gaming, and speeds around 50 mbps. Take all that into consideration and you'll see why streaming and cloud gaming is and will be a thing.
 
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turtlepowa

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You make plenty of money with hardware - as evidenced by Nintendo and Sony right now.

And the more hardware out there with the capability of running your software the better. Your post reeks of fanboy distortion.
I don't even own a console at the moment, but thanks for your kind words. It should be clear that Sony (and MS) is selling their consoles with a loss right now and i'm pretty sure that you can make much money on Pc, smartphones and tablets. There is a reason why Sony starts porting too. Sony will sell more consoles, that's for sure. But i wouldn't be too sure that they make more money this gen and Ms is neither otherwise they wouldn't have this strategy.
 
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DaGwaphics

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Everyone does. Maybe not Nintendo, but still console manufacturers usually make many from the games you buy. Otherwise you won't get hardware like this at 500 USD.

The very definition of the old "Razor & Blades" model of business. Obviously, MS doesn't double down on it as much since they do give you options in where you play.
 
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djjinx2

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But, of course, blame Sony camp and how they eat crow, but DELIBERATELY ignoring what MS said recently and more than a half a year ago :


Last year :




Yeah, Xbox fans, this is what your leader said. He wouldn't exclude others from being able to play and force to buy Xbox. But Zenimax acquisition happened and now flip-flop. Isn't than nice, Xbox fans. Never change, Xbox fans, never change. But it is understandable since you needed a fuel in a console wars because you were mocked in last 10+ years.

Whysoserious.gif


Anyway who did the mocking for 10 years plus?

Enjoying their timed exclusives and exclusives from bought Studios as well sometimes.

I mean Sony literally paid to stop Deathloop and Ghostwire coming out on other platforms, they even tried to moneyhat Starfield. The hilarious thing now is Jim Ryan doesn't even know if it's coming for PlayStation anymore. One could say Sony is to blame for Microsoft buying Bethesda.



This is just business don't take it so personally, if it hurts so much buy an Xbox.
 
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Hezekiah

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I don't even own a console at the moment, but thanks for your kind words. It should be clear that Sony (and MS) is selling their consoles with a loss right now and i'm pretty sure that you can make much money on Pc, smartphones and tablets. There is a reason why Sony starts porting too. Sony will sell more consoles, that's for sure. But i wouldn't be too sure that they make more money this gen and Ms is neither otherwise they wouldn't have this strategy.
Pretty sure PS4s are being sold for a profit. Quite a big one I imagine.

Sony porting games to PCs is bonus income, years after those releases have made the bulk of their money on Playstation like Horizon and Days Gone.

Phones and tablets? See above.
 
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Reality Czar

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I keep seeing people use arguments like Ghostwire and Deathloop. Those aren't DOOM or Elder Scrolls, series that have been around since the 90s, which you can play on everything from your phone to a your fridge. As for Spider-Man, I mean, Marvel came to Sony and offered them any character they wanted to make a game of, and they chose the character that they also own the movie rights for. It's no surprise that Sony owns Spider-Man movies and would want to make an exclusive Spider-Man game. If Microsoft owned a superhero like Batman or something and made a Xbox exclusive Batman game, that would be comparable.

But that has nothing to do with Elder Scrolls or DOOM or Fallout or all these old legacy IPs. He mentioned contracts, it is quite likely all these legacy IPs have contracts on the various stores and streaming services. Skyrim was recently brought to Nintendo systems for the first time, it seems like a step back to stop making content for this new market. This is why I think he is not making any definitive statements about what games are exclusive, the next games in most of these big franchises will still be multiplat. Perhaps some timed exclusives, but still multiplat.

Look. They own the company now, they have full ownership, there is no reason for them to not announce it clearly that X game will only be on one console. If only selling consoles was their goal, they could announce that and start selling like hotcakes. Yet they aren't doing that. This is why I think it isn't so cut and dry. People act like it is but they are taking vague corporate statements and twisting them into their dream situation. So far things seem pretty up in the air.
 
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CatLady

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Here is the compilation of takes.



































































Bonus:

Bernkastel Bernkastel this is a work of art. Such a great compilation of all the delusional fanboy takes we've put up with for so many months now. I especially appreciate the special section devoted to FoBoB and the endless disingenuous drivel he has shit up so many threads with forever.
Thanks for all your hard work
 

Dane

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Imagine if you guys were just as pissed with Sony paying for Deathloop and Ghostwire, as after all, Bethesda always released their games as multiplatforms.
I keep seeing people use arguments like Ghostwire and Deathloop. Those aren't DOOM or Elder Scrolls, series that have been around since the 90s, which you can play on everything from your phone to a your fridge. As for Spider-Man, I mean, Marvel came to Sony and offered them any character they wanted to make a game of, and they chose the character that they also own the movie rights for. It's no surprise that Sony owns Spider-Man movies and would want to make an exclusive Spider-Man game. If Microsoft owned a superhero like Batman or something and made a Xbox exclusive Batman game, that would be comparable.

But that has nothing to do with Elder Scrolls or DOOM or Fallout or all these old legacy IPs. He mentioned contracts, it is quite likely all these legacy IPs have contracts on the various stores and streaming services. Skyrim was recently brought to Nintendo systems for the first time, it seems like a step back to stop making content for this new market. This is why I think he is not making any definitive statements about what games are exclusive, the next games in most of these big franchises will still be multiplat. Perhaps some timed exclusives, but still multiplat.

Look. They own the company now, they have full ownership, there is no reason for them to not announce it clearly that X game will only be on one console. If only selling consoles was their goal, they could announce that and start selling like hotcakes. Yet they aren't doing that. This is why I think it isn't so cut and dry. People act like it is but they are taking vague corporate statements and twisting them into their dream situation. So far things seem pretty up in the air.

Both games are AAA titles for Zenimax, they're just not flagship franchises because they're new IPs. And Sony only have rights over the movies, not everything, we had the Sam Raimi games on PC, Gamecube and Xbox.
 
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Mmnow

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Yet they aren't doing that. This is why I think it isn't so cut and dry. People act like it is but they are taking vague corporate statements and twisting them into their dream situation.
Is that why you used the phrase "legacy IPs" more than once, even though nobody in the history of ever has used that phrase before the Bethesda roundtable?
 
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But that has nothing to do with Elder Scrolls or DOOM or Fallout or all these old legacy IPs. He mentioned contracts, it is quite likely all these legacy IPs have contracts on the various stores and streaming services. Skyrim was recently brought to Nintendo systems for the first time, it seems like a step back to stop making content for this new market. This is why I think he is not making any definitive statements about what games are exclusive, the next games in most of these big franchises will still be multiplat. Perhaps some timed exclusives, but still multiplat.
When I think about Doom, I think PC. MS-DOS. Certainly not Playstation lol. When I think Elder Scrolls or Fallout, I think PC. To be fair, I also think about ps3. Did you enjoy Skyrim on PS3?

Legacy software means released games. That includes remasters or DLC (like Doom Eternal DLC next week). There is no other legacy on Playstation.
Look. They own the company now, they have full ownership, there is no reason for them to not announce it clearly that X game will only be on one console. If only selling consoles was their goal, they could announce that and start selling like hotcakes. Yet they aren't doing that. This is why I think it isn't so cut and dry. People act like it is but they are taking vague corporate statements and twisting them into their dream situation. So far things seem pretty up in the air.
They have every reason not to announce those games in a lukewarm fashion like that. You think they want to fart it into the room like that instead of announcing it on a live stage? Now they will have Xbox fans and Sony fans tuning into their next conference. You think they are going to let the opportunity with their WORLD PREMIERE, EXCLUSIVE voice slip past them? You don't waste a PR bomb like this. Time and place.
 

PropellerEar

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I'm not sure that's true. I think it'll be supplemental in places where consoles are still doing well, but there are places today where cloud gaming is already taking off. Asia, in particular. It's also not crazy to suggest, with regional pricing, that cloud gaming might do well in countries that have good internet but low wages/small houses. That isn't as rare as you might think.

Series S exists, Microsoft says, because games consoles won't be getting cheap like they did in the past, and they wanted to bring in casuals from the start. I can believe that, but whether it turns out to be absolutely true is neither here nor there.

PC users have taken Forza Horizon 4 to 24m copies "sold".


That doesn't include Steam, where it was at the top of the charts.

My original point is that this is all part of an ecosystem that can exist together in a way that's far more efficient than on other consoles, and I think that just entirely proves it. Forza is a top tier racing game, but think of the numbers when Halo, The Elder Scrolls or Fallout follows this method.

Edit: I was slightly off on what that 24m figure represented. I've fixed it now.
Asphalt 8 has over 300M dowloads.
 
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prinz_valium

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I seen fanboy Matt’s post from era saying trying to make this move look bad by saying this supports Trumps family because he’s on zenimaxs board. Something along those lines. Undercover Sony shill
Nothing about that guy is undercover shill.
Just a daylight imposter / troll
 
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Mmnow

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Damn, I knew that physical distribution is in huge retreat since the past decade, but I'd never imagine it'll be bringing less profits than the consoles themselves...
That data is a year out of date and was at the height of the first coronavirus spike. It might be skewed, but at the time I just picked the first chart that illustrated the rise of digital/MTX/DLC and the fall of console sales.