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Analysis Kraken Vs ZLIB: 29% Smaller Game Sizes Losslessly, 297% Faster Decompression on PS5

Nov 24, 2020
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Why you in this thread then? Nobody care that you don't care.
Public forum, I have an account. Can view and post freely within the confines of the ToS. If you feel my comments are off topic you are free to contact the moderators of this forum and discuss the removal of said comment.
 

Playboi Carti

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I know it says "captured on PS5" but I have my doubts that it will look this good.
I'm sure the final version will look even better. And they're not even squeezing the console dry since the game is cross-gen. Their next game boutta melt some faces, Guerrilla doesn't play no games.
 
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Bo_Hazem

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I just, I don't care about any of this. I just want to play games, not beat off over things going on behind the scenes. So far next-gen has been a flaming hot letdown with zero next-gen only titles that I have any interest whatsoever in. Call me when Halo Infinite and God of War launch. I don't care about these differences because we all know when it comes down to it, its the artists talent that really matters. It's why companies like Rockstar, Naughty Dog, The Coalition, Sucker Punch, are a cut above everyone else, irrespective of the platform.

Posting in a thread you don't care about isn't a requirement in NeoGAF, so you may see yourself on other threads that meet your interest.
 

Bo_Hazem

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Sony has been truthful on the "captured on PS5" mantra, so in theory the PS5 version should look like that?

It'll look better than this. Some forget spiderman MM. Those are taken by me on my PS5:



Look at the RT reflections on the mask and the windows.



And those are with raytracing, just look at the windows and puddles:





Both are crossgen, and I think Spiderman MM looks even more impressive due to being Native 4K with RT. The graphics on Horizon Forbidden West shown earlier could easily pass as performance mode 60fps as if you 800% zoom in you can notice pixelation that is impossible for the naked eye to spot at 100% 4K, not the case on Spiderman MM due to the temporal injection to higher resolution (6K?) the downsampled at 4K, at least for their anti-aliasing method.
 
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Nov 24, 2020
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Posting in a thread you don't care about isn't a requirement in NeoGAF, so you may see yourself on other threads that meet your interest.
No, but there is nothing stopping me from sharing my opinion on the matter, and until there are rules in place that prevent such things, I will continue to share how I feel irrespective of how my "take" is viewed.

I'm a lot older than most people here, I was arguing fervently the way you were back when the PS2 was a thing, when the PSX was a thing. There comes a time when you just stop caring and realize the artists are the true stars of the show. I'm not trying to come off as dismissive of the fact that YOU or others find this interesting; i get it, tech is cool, the minutia at times can be worth looking into and arguing over. I enjoyed reading the facts of these threads, but face palm over some of the back and forth exchanges. In the end, none of it matters to me.
 
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Bo_Hazem

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No, but there is nothing stopping me from sharing my opinion on the matter, and until there are rules in place that prevent such things, I will continue to share how I feel irrespective of how my "take" is viewed.

I'm a lot older than most people here, I was arguing fervently the way you were back when the PS2 was a thing, when the PSX was a thing. There comes a time when you just stop caring and realize the artists are the true stars of the show. I'm not trying to come off as dismissive of the fact that YOU or others find this interesting; i get it, tech is cool, the minutia at times can be worth looking into and arguing over. I enjoyed reading the facts of these threads, but face palm over some of the back and forth exchanges. In the end, none of it matters to me.

Hey, you have all freedom to share your opinion, just was suggesting that maybe this topic doesn't interest you so you may as well pass to something you may enjoy.

All the best. :lollipop_raising_hand:
 

Lethal01

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No, but there is nothing stopping me from sharing my opinion on the matter, and until there are rules in place that prevent such things, I will continue to share how I feel irrespective of how my "take" is viewed.

I'm a lot older than most people here, I was arguing fervently the way you were back when the PS2 was a thing, when the PSX was a thing. There comes a time when you just stop caring and realize the artists are the true stars of the show. I'm not trying to come off as dismissive of the fact that YOU or others find this interesting; i get it, tech is cool, the minutia at times can be worth looking into and arguing over. I enjoyed reading the facts of these threads, but face palm over some of the back and forth exchanges. In the end, none of it matters to me.

Okay, then once again, if you don't care about it, don't talk about it. I don't got to my nieces tea party to tell them how I don't care about dolls. you're being silly.
 
Nov 24, 2020
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Hey, you have all freedom to share your opinion, just was suggesting that maybe this topic doesn't interest you so you may as well pass to something you may enjoy.

All the best. :lollipop_raising_hand:
If you don’t know that I don’t care, what’s the point of not caring?
 
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Bo_Hazem

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NOTE: This is the list as by the source, the corrected one is on the OP.

Game​
PS5
Xbox Series X|S
Control Ultimate Edition
25.7​
43.6​
Hitman 3
61.9​
77.8​
Subnautica
3.8​
8.3​
Crash Bandicoot 4
20.0​
28.0​
Tony Hawk
23.3​
31.9​
Marvel’s Avengers
74.1​
116.6​
AC Valhalla
41.8​
72.5​
Watch Dogs Legion
50.6​
61.1​
Immortals Fenyx Rising
22.3​
32.9​
Borderlands 3
51.1​
63.8​
Dirt 5
50.9​
63.3​
Mortal Shell
4.6​
8.6​
Total
430.1GB
608.4GB
Space left
236.9GB
193.6GB for X (-244.4GB for S)

Source:


Kraken compression combined with Oodle Texture is showing great benefits on PS5 so far, even surpassing expectations by turning around the table making it have virtually the biggest storage space.
 
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Mar 27, 2020
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Uncharted bunghole
Game​
PS5
Xbox Series X|S
Control Ultimate Edition
25.7​
43.6​
Hitman 3
61.9​
77.8​
Subnautica
3.8​
8.3​
Crash Bandicoot 4
20.0​
28.0​
Tony Hawk
23.3​
31.9​
Marvel’s Avengers
74.1​
116.6​
AC Valhalla
41.8​
72.5​
Watch Dogs Legion
50.6​
61.1​
Immortals Fenyx Rising
22.3​
32.9​
Borderlands 3
51.1​
63.8​
Dirt 5
50.9​
63.3​
Mortal Shell
4.6​
8.6​
Total
430.1GB
608.4GB
Space left
236.9GB
193.6GB for X (-244.4GB for S)

Source:


Kraken compression combined with Oodle Texture is showing great benefits on PS5 so far, even surpassing expectations by turning around the table making it have virtually the biggest storage space.

Could be why Sony wasn't really worried about a slightly smaller SSD.
 
Nov 24, 2020
289
707
320
Game​
PS5
Xbox Series X|S
Control Ultimate Edition
25.7​
43.6​
Hitman 3
61.9​
77.8​
Subnautica
3.8​
8.3​
Crash Bandicoot 4
20.0​
28.0​
Tony Hawk
23.3​
31.9​
Marvel’s Avengers
74.1​
116.6​
AC Valhalla
41.8​
72.5​
Watch Dogs Legion
50.6​
61.1​
Immortals Fenyx Rising
22.3​
32.9​
Borderlands 3
51.1​
63.8​
Dirt 5
50.9​
63.3​
Mortal Shell
4.6​
8.6​
Total
430.1GB
608.4GB
Space left
236.9GB
193.6GB for X (-244.4GB for S)

Source:


Kraken compression combined with Oodle Texture is showing great benefits on PS5 so far, even surpassing expectations by turning around the table making it have virtually the biggest storage space.
That’s weird because Hitman is 64.8 gigs on my Series X. Anyone fact check this list because there’s one fuck up found with a one second glance.
 

elliot5

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That’s weird because Hitman is 64.8 gigs on my Series X. Anyone fact check this list because there’s one fuck up found with a one second glance.
Dirt 5 is 62.7 on mine (not much smaller than listed) though I apparently have an update pending so I don't know how that changes it. It's in cold storage which is why it's not updated fully.
 
Jan 29, 2019
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It'll look better than this. Some forget spiderman MM. Those are taken by me on my PS5:



Look at the RT reflections on the mask and the windows.



And those are with raytracing, just look at the windows and puddles:





Both are crossgen, and I think Spiderman MM looks even more impressive due to being Native 4K with RT. The graphics on Horizon Forbidden West shown earlier could easily pass as performance mode 60fps as if you 800% zoom in you can notice pixelation that is impossible for the naked eye to spot at 100% 4K, not the case on Spiderman MM due to the temporal injection to higher resolution (6K?) the downsampled at 4K, at least for their anti-aliasing method.
That spiderman game looks almost empty compared to the new Horizon game shown above, the level of details is just on a different level.
 
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Bo_Hazem

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Interesting. Subnautica and this game are now games with over 100% file size difference.

Only if there were developer interviews that talked about what they did. It would be so interesting to have that kind of insight into this new console tech.

This could be just download sizes. After installation sizes might differ (more/less).
 
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Mr Moose

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Interesting. Subnautica and this game are now games with over 100% file size difference.

Only if there were developer interviews that talked about what they did. It would be so interesting to have that kind of insight into this new console tech.
Seems the Watch_Dogs patch is smaller by quite a bit, too.
I'm not sure if it's Kraken related but it's a possibility.
 
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M1chl

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Interneting, but it does not appears that those used those Xbox Authoring tools, because that way we would see Series S at lower size, poor S, hardly can do those 4K textures. Oh...well that could be that the both asset catalogs are within one version or that maybe someone is trying to suggest that S can run 1440p as well as 1800p on X. Which pressing that huge doubt. Again I don't want to repeat myself, but MS will not catch with Sony's solution on this. I am just speculating.

Need to look up for the game.
 

Bo_Hazem

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Interneting, but it does not appears that those used those Xbox Authoring tools, because that way we would see Series S at lower size, poor S, hardly can do those 4K textures. Oh...well that could be that the both asset catalogs are within one version or that maybe someone is trying to suggest that S can run 1440p as well as 1800p on X. Which pressing that huge doubt. Again I don't want to repeat myself, but MS will not catch with Sony's solution on this. I am just speculating.

Need to look up for the game.

Yes, we need to know the sizes after installation. If it was just dirty work of combining both then the ones not designed for the console get deleted or it's just PC-like bundle of waste.
 
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M1chl

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Yes, we need to know the sizes after installation. If it was just dirty work of combining both then the ones not designed for the console get deleted or it's just PC-like bundle of waste.
On Xbox there is zero difference from download size, at least in all of the games I saw so far. Patches are...well they can be whole game again and the install size doesn't rose 1 bit. Not sure how is on PS5, cause I don't having that yet.
 
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Bo_Hazem

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On Xbox there is zero difference from download size, at least in all of the games I saw so far. Patches are...well they can be whole game again and the install size doesn't rose 1 bit. Not sure how is on PS5, cause I don't having that yet.

I think some games get smaller after installation if the download probably packed with some app for management that gets deleted afterwards? Not sure. Never been paying closer look at that while downloading games.
 
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M1chl

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I think some games get smaller after installation if the download probably packed with some app for management that gets deleted afterwards? Not sure. Never been paying closer look at that while downloading games.
Basically the whole Xbox bundle is like the whole virtual machine container, which already has taken account to system language, system you are downloading from, etc, so I would not expect these sort of things, it's different type of installation which Playstation have.
 

Bo_Hazem

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If true that is a lot of difference.

What amazes me is it's slightly bigger than Astro's Playroom! But still Subnautica is at a shocking 3.75GB only!

Basically the whole Xbox bundle is like the whole virtual machine container, which already has taken account to system language, system you are downloading from, etc, so I would not expect these sort of things, it's different type of installation which Playstation have.

Hope we hear more from devs about how things are being done, if not NDA'ed as usual.
 
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yurinka

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Sony has been truthful on the "captured on PS5" mantra, so in theory the PS5 version should look like that?
Yes. But it can be captured using the photo mode, or from a cutscene. If you go to see what people did with photo mode of the first Horizon on PS4 you'd be amazed, so it's pretty likely this are PS5 shots specially after seeing the gameplay trailer.

It's very likely that what we saw in the reveal trailer was running on a PS5 but were in-engine cutscenes (which in many cases means more detailed meshes, textures and different lighting) and then the gameplay trailer seems slightly worse because it's using gameplay assets and lighting, but in the final game you may end the same (or maybe an improved version) both.
 
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Bo_Hazem

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Yes. But it can be captured using the photo mode, or from a cutscene. If you go to see what people did with photo mode of the first Horizon on PS4 you'd be amazed, so it's pretty likely this are PS5 shots specially after seeing the gameplay trailer.

It's very likely that what we saw in the reveal trailer was running on a PS5 but were in-engine cutscenes (which in many cases means more detailed meshes, textures and different lighting) and then the gameplay trailer seems slightly worse because it's using gameplay assets and lighting, but in the final game you may end the same (or maybe an improved version) both.

I think you posted in the wrong thread. :messenger_winking_tongue:
 
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yurinka

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Crazy number indeed! I think it'll be more obvious with smaller studios that won't go the extra mile to pay unnecessary money on licensing the Kraken on other platforms and just use the free, open-source ZLIB.
Yes, in PS5 Sony paid the license for all devs. So anyone who publishes a game on PS5 can use it. In other platforms they'd need to pay the license plus uncompress it themselves, while in PS5 the console itself decompresses it.
 

Bo_Hazem

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Yes, in PS5 Sony paid the license for all devs. So anyone who publishes a game on PS5 can use it. In other platforms they'd need to pay the license plus uncompress it themselves, while in PS5 the console itself decompresses it.

You mean the Dev-kit? Yes. But you need to compress it prior to sending it to users/store though, as the console has only a decompressor, not a compressor AFAIK.
 

yurinka

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You mean the Dev-kit? Yes. But you need to compress it prior to sending it to users/store though, as the console has only a decompressor, not a compressor AFAIK.
Yes, the game you download digitally or that is in the disk is compressed. When you make a game for the console the devkit compresses it (the compressor is now part of the software development kit that Sony includes with their devkits, the devs don't need to acquire/pay/do anything other than using the stuff included in the devkit).

The console uses its OS and hardware to decompress when you load the game in a seamless way for the dev and the player.
 
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Bo_Hazem

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Yes, the game you download digitally or that is in the disk is compressed. When you make a game for the console the devkit compresses it (the compressor is now part of the software development kit that Sony includes with their devkits).

The console uses its OS and hardware to decompress when you load the game in a seamless way for the dev and the player.

It'll be the standard going forward, because it's 3x faster in decompression. ZLIB is really another bottleneck to the system in data streaming.
 

Rea

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Crazy number indeed! I think it'll be more obvious with smaller studios that won't go the extra mile to pay unnecessary money on licensing the Kraken on other platforms and just use the free, open-source ZLIB.
I think Series X decompressor only fine tuned for Zlib compression, if kraken is to used on SX, it has to use CPU for decompression.
Might be wrong.
 

Bo_Hazem

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I think Series X decompressor only fine tuned for Zlib compression, if kraken is to used on SX, it has to use CPU for decompression.
Might be wrong.

Could be, it's already using the CPU though for ZLIB, but a fraction of a core according to PR. Maybe Kraken is more taxing? Not sure, maybe that's why the decompressor is as powerful as a whooping 9x Zen2 cores vs 4x on XSX?
 
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Rea

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Could be, it's already using the CPU though for ZLIB, but a fraction of a core according to PR. Maybe Kraken is more taxing? Not sure, maybe that's why the decompressor is as powerful as a whooping 9x Zen2 cores vs 4x on XSX?
Zlib is inferior in everything compare to Kraken, kraken has faster decoding time, better compression ratio. PS5 decompressor is fine tuned for kraken and it's bandwidth can be considered as future proof (massive 22GB/s).
Because Cerny guessed that Kraken combined with Oodle textures can saturate those bandwidth in the future, currently is only around 17gb/s, if I'm not wrong.
Microsoft just use an traditional outdated compression format which is Zlib, and only build a custom decompressor unit, which is fine tuned only for Zlib and their own BCpack. Zlib is also slower in decoding time than kraken, so they don't need a very high speed bandwidth decompressor.
To summarize, Cerny and his team paid more attention to how data is packed and deliver to consumers, and also how to deliver those data at very high bandwidth with lowest latency to the GPU for rendering.
Microsoft priority is to build a server chip for its cloud gaming and uses that chip for building a traditional console without too much investment in RnD department.
 

Hoddi

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Look, I don't know how to break this to you guys but Kraken has been in use since 2017. There have been countless games shipped on Kraken since then and including every Call of Duty and yet it hasn't prevented them from hitting 250GB in size.

Kraken is a fantastic compressor but you're acting like it's Santa Claus.
 

jroc74

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Look, I don't know how to break this to you guys but Kraken has been in use since 2017. There have been countless games shipped on Kraken since then and including every Call of Duty and yet it hasn't prevented them from hitting 250GB in size.

Kraken is a fantastic compressor but you're acting like it's Santa Claus.
Damn...if only these console makers did something to help the compression, decompression.......oh well.
 
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SlimySnake

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Look, I don't know how to break this to you guys but Kraken has been in use since 2017. There have been countless games shipped on Kraken since then and including every Call of Duty and yet it hasn't prevented them from hitting 250GB in size.

Kraken is a fantastic compressor but you're acting like it's Santa Claus.
For every compressor you need a good decompressor.

PS5
The controller supports hardware decompression for the industry-standard ZLIB, but also the new Kraken format from RAD Game Tools, which offers an additional 10 per cent of compression efficiency. The bottom line? 5.5GBs of bandwidth translates into an effective eight or nine gigabytes per second fed into the system. "By the way, in terms of performance, that custom decompressor equates to nine of our Zen 2 cores, that's what it would take to decompress the Kraken stream with a conventional CPU," Cerny reveals.

Xbox
Hardware Decompression – Hardware decompression is a dedicated hardware component introduced with Xbox Series X and Xbox Series S to allow games to consume as little space as possible on the SSD while eliminating all CPU overhead typically associated with run-time decompression. It reduces the software overhead of decompression when operating at full SSD performance from more than three CPU cores to zero – thereby freeing considerable CPU power for the game to spend on areas like better gameplay and improved framerates. Hardware decompression is one of the components of the Xbox Velocity Architecture.