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is PS5 GPU is slightly better than gtx 1080 thats pretty pathetic.

Stuart360

Member
Y'all massively underestimating the CPU bump and SSD.

Also 4K will still be reconstructed and that only takes 4TF as Pro does. The algo will be improved too.

Since we're getting 12TF minimum that's another 8TF plus RT to work with for 4K30. Next gen will be the best jump ever since PS2.
It will be the smallest jump outside of resolution. The Pro doesnt have many 4k games, even when using reconstructuion.
 

10000

Banned
I dunno but I felt we could only just accept it as it can't be helped, (well 6-8x more GPU power than ps4 seems sufficient, at least for me)

It is a result of GPU stagnation that occur becauze Nvidia didn't have a proper competition and AMD staying low till now, thus the price stagnate and Sony/Microsoft can't afford to raise the console's price.

Maybe things will change at the middle of next gen or maybe next-next generation after intel join the fight and AMD's RDNA arch gets matured.

edit: wrong grammar
 
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vpance

Member
It will be the smallest jump outside of resolution. The Pro doesnt have many 4k games, even when using reconstructuion.

Use Pro as the reference. You're too focused on the multiplier between generations. Devs sucked balls at implementing reconstruction for whatever reason but I don't expect that to be the case with new SDKs where it's likely to have better support.
 
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DedEmbryonicCell

Neo Member
Doesn't surprise me .. but remember we can't overclock our consoles, we can for our PC (With the right components) ..

I don't see this as a big issue .. I get it there are better cards out there but lets remember if they tried to put a new card with little room we will be heating our houses with an inevitable fire ..
 

Stuart360

Member
Use Pro as the reference. You're too focused on the multiplier between generations. Devs sucked balls at implementing reconstruction for whatever reason but I don't expect that to be the case with new SDKs where it's likely to have better support.
Even Cerny says you need 8tf to run PS4 games at 4k, and thats a fair assessment as the 6tf OneX can run most XB1 games at 4k, and the XB1 is only 1.3tf.
That means we will be getting PS4 games at 4k, with about an extra 4tf to play with. Now add in ray tracing in some games, and those 4tf will be gobbled up like nothing.
 

vpance

Member
Even Cerny says you need 8tf to run PS4 games at 4k, and thats a fair assessment as the 6tf OneX can run most XB1 games at 4k, and the XB1 is only 1.3tf.
That means we will be getting PS4 games at 4k, with about an extra 4tf to play with. Now add in ray tracing in some games, and those 4tf will be gobbled up like nothing.

They're going to reconstruct, 100% sure. Lower tier devs or cross gen games won't bother and just use 8 of the total to meet 4k30.

This gen we got games to look great with new techniques like PBR for that CGI feel, but it was missing CPU power and memory, both of which won't be a big issue next gen. Hopefully the RT implementation is good enough to significantly improve shadows and reflections.
 

Stuart360

Member
They're going to reconstruct, 100% sure. Lower tier devs or cross gen games won't bother and just use 8 of the total to meet 4k30.

This gen we got games to look great with new techniques like PBR for that CGI feel, but it was missing CPU power and memory, both of which won't be a big issue next gen. Hopefully the RT implementation is good enough to significantly improve shadows and reflections.
I'm sure there will be some reconstruction in some games, especially at the later part of the gen, but i think most games will be targeting native 4k, especially first party games. I mean they target native 4k with the 6tf OneX, why would they not target native 4k with 12+tf machines?, it would seem like a step back on more powerful hardware, it would make little sense.
 

pawel86ck

Banned
Even Cerny says you need 8tf to run PS4 games at 4k, and thats a fair assessment as the 6tf OneX can run most XB1 games at 4k, and the XB1 is only 1.3tf.
That means we will be getting PS4 games at 4k, with about an extra 4tf to play with. Now add in ray tracing in some games, and those 4tf will be gobbled up like nothing.
If next gen consoles will use a hybrid RT method then those remaining 4TF will be indeed quickly used, but if next gen consoles will offer something like RT cores then raytracing will not hammer performance that much. For example in metro exodus maxed out at 1080p 2060 SUPER 8GB gets 63 fps without RT, and 58 fps with RT.

If PS5 will use RT cores, and those RT cores will be fast enough to deliver 4K 30fps, then developers will be able to use raytracing without performance hit.
 

Stuart360

Member
If next gen consoles will use a hybrid RT method then those remaining 4TF will be indeed quickly used, but if next gen consoles will offer something like RT cores then raytracing will not hammer performance that much. For example in metro exodus maxed out at 1080p 2060 SUPER 8GB gets 63 fps without RT, and 58 fps with RT.

If PS5 will use RT cores, and those RT cores will be fast enough to deliver 4K 30fps, then developers will be able to use raytracing without performance hit.
It doesnt work like that. The RTX cards have dedicated ray tracing cores, but you still get a performance hit when ray tracing is turned on. Its just less of a hit you would have if you had no dedicated cores.
Plus we are talking 4k here, so those extra 4tf will be more like 1tf if you take into account 1080p vs 4k. So in reality it would be like a PS4 at 2.84tf, instead of 1.84tf, but at 4k instead of 1080p.
However its worked out, there will be some games next gen that look like PS4/XB1 games but at 4k.
 
Y'all massively underestimating the CPU bump and SSD.

Also 4K will still be reconstructed and that only takes 4TF as Pro does. The algo will be improved too.

Since we're getting 12TF minimum that's another 8TF plus RT to work with for 4K30. Next gen will be the best jump ever since PS2.
It'll be a bigger jump than 360 to ps4 but smaller than GameCube to 360. Which itself is a smaller jump than 64 to cube or ps1 to 2 lol.

Also teraflops are the new bit wars. Navi will have lower flops than big Vega but will perform better.
 
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thelastword

Banned
Well, they seem το squeeze a lot more from graphics cards when they are inside a console. Remember the PS4 being the same as a GTX 750ti? Try playing some late gen games with that card on PC now.


At 30fps, with medium/console settings they can.
Cool point overall, but the 750ti was never stronger than a PS4, Leadbetter just used that to fan some flames, you realize that comparisons of 750ti is no longer a thing because PS4 offers better perf and settings than that 2Gb card by far.... I don't see Detroit, and many current multiplats running as well on that card as they do on PS4...... You will also realize that there are few if any XBONEX comparisons to the rx 580/1060 or the 1070 which Leadbetter says the XBONEX measures to, hilariously...... There's a reason you don't and won't see that from the DF crew.......
Not necessarily. Ps2 had bandwidth and to a lesser extent fillrate that blew pc out of the water for years, in those areas. Ps2 was a unique beast. Higher bandwidth and fillrate than Xbox and GameCube despite being weaker overall.

Then there's pc overhead.
Xbox had a more modern GPU, but PS2 was still based on the old school polygonal model, but it had tones of bandwidth and a powerful CPU, it's the reason we got so many 60fps games.....I must say, I'll take many PS2 games over Xbox if all they received was a 4k Rez boost with AA and AF applied, they will look better than those heavily shader based XBOX games; Valkyrie Profile, Primal, GT3/4, Ghost Hunter, Ridge Racer 5, Ape Escape, Mark of Kri, Extermination, FF 10/12, Onimusha 4, Blood will Tell, Shadow Hearts, Rule of Rose, Silent Hill Trilogy.... Tbh, I wish we got a PS2 emulator on PS5 to play all these games at 4k 60fps......

I remember when people kept saying this and were mocking the hardware and then Killzone Shadowfall and Infamous Second Son trailers were called fake/CGI, with claims that PS4 hardware could never handle those graphics in realtime with that outdated hardware.

And then those games released...

And in time games like The Order, Horizon and GOW.

Guess we're going into next-gen again. lol
Remember when they said DC's weather was too good to be true and it would tank the framerate or when they said UC4's early demo was fake and all bullshot stuff, or when they saw LOU 2, the media said, well "If this is real time then it's really impressive, then we had twitter wars over LOU2's graphics and animations". Remember when Sony showed Tsushima and people said "Get the Eff Out, High end PC", don't try and fool me Sony...... or when Horizon launched with sharp IQ, great textures everywhere, huge Vistas in an open world, great looking characters everywhere with good animations, a neat cloud system, all running at a solid 30fps, that people ate mountains of crow?........

They never learn for they?
 

vpance

Member
I'm sure there will be some reconstruction in some games, especially at the later part of the gen, but i think most games will be targeting native 4k, especially first party games. I mean they target native 4k with the 6tf OneX, why would they not target native 4k with 12+tf machines?, it would seem like a step back on more powerful hardware, it would make little sense.

Some devs will and some won't to max out shading/effects. Anyways, we don't have clear cut examples of what devs are capable of doing with 4, 6, 8TF left over since every big AAA game is still based off the OG consoles. IMO we will get some stunners.
 
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pawel86ck

Banned
It doesnt work like that. The RTX cards have dedicated ray tracing cores, but you still get a performance hit when ray tracing is turned on. Its just less of a hit you would have if you had no dedicated cores.
Plus we are talking 4k here, so those extra 4tf will be more like 1tf if you take into account 1080p vs 4k. So in reality it would be like a PS4 at 2.84tf, instead of 1.84tf, but at 4k instead of 1080p.
However its worked out, there will be some games next gen that look like PS4/XB1 games but at 4k.

untitled-1.png


Currently RT cores can deliver 1080p 60fps, and as long RT cores arnt a bottleneck, then RT performance impact is very small. The problem is most of the time RT indeed are a bottleneck, especially at 1440p, or 4K. With 4x faster RT cores however even at 4K performance would be great.

Games on PS5 will probably still use checkerboard rendering, so if RT cores would be powerful enough to render 1440p-1800p at 30-40fps, then developers would be able to use RT without big performance impact in 30fps games.
 
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1440p with temporal injection, or an even better upscaling method (TI is currently best) is all we need resolution wise.

Bring on 60fps

I mean if you've seen ratchet and clank, or sotc using ps4 pro, on a 4k display, I don't know why youd want more than that
 
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Daymos

Member
untitled-1.png


Currently RT cores can deliver 1080p 60fps, and as long RT cores arnt a bottleneck, then RT performance impact is very small. The problem is most of the time RT indeed are a bottleneck, especially at 1440p, or 4K. With 4x faster RT cores however even at 4K performance would be great.

Games on PS5 will probably still use checkerboard rendering, so if RT cores would be powerful enough to render 1440p-1800p at 30-40fps, then developers would be able to use RT without big performance impact in 30fps games.

So 1440p, 30fps, with ray tracing.. I'm pretty sure everyone is expecting 4k + 60fps + ray tracing.. basically impossible.
 

Danjin44

The nicest person on this forum
tenor.gif


If some of you guys that obsess over having most powerful gaming system, wouldn't you guys better off just getting PC? The fact is the consoles will never going to be as powerful as PC, they are just not.
 

vpance

Member
1440p with temporal injection, or an even better upscaling method (TI is currently best) is all we need resolution wise.

Bring on 60fps

I mean if you've seen ratchet and clank, or sotc using ps4 pro, on a 4k display, I don't know why youd want more than that

Days Gone or Horizon are the best examples I think. Both being demanding open world titles running at around half 4K pixel count and staying very sharp.
 

Ellery

Member
better than a GTX 1080 in a console? Awesome !

I am not sure my brain is even ready to picture what games that look 5x as good God of War, Bloodborne and Uncharted 4 look like.
 
Days Gone or Horizon are the best examples I think. Both being demanding open world titles running at around half 4K pixel count and staying very sharp.
Worse than temporal injection ; TI doubles as good quality TAA with no artifacts like checkerboard has.
 

3March

Banned
DMC5 certainly is an impressive looking game. But it is most certainly NOT more technically impressive than most of Sony's output on the PS4.
Targeting 60FPS on all consoles, and being able to reach above that on PC. That alone makes it look better than most PS4 games.
 
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Fbh

Member
Guess I'm less demanding then.
If next gen offers something slightly better than a 1080 on top of a SSD as standards storage and a notoriously better CPU all for $500 or less I think that's pretty good.

The thing about consoles is that they need to remain somewhat affordable. There's already a platform for people that don't mind spending more to get the most power and best performance possible, it's called PC



tenor.gif


If some of you guys that obsess over having most powerful gaming system, wouldn't you guys better off just getting PC? The fact is the consoles will never going to be as powerful as PC, they are just not.

OP's whole thing is that he doesn't like modern console gaming, doesn't like this gen of consoles and misses the time when consoles were ahead of the average PC and stuff like the Ps1 and Ps2 had a billion exclusives that didn't release on PC.

So unless next gen has like an RTX 2080 Ti and an Intel Core i9 9900K for $499 on top of around 30 exclusives a year he will complain
 
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Pimpbaa

Member
Targeting 60FPS on all consoles, and being able to reach above that on PC. That alone makes it look better than most PS4 games.

That is rather subjective. DMC5 needs 60fps, but 60fps does not automatically make a game look better than a 30fps. In genres that do not need 60fps, I'll take better looking graphics over 60fps. Particularly when it has some proper motion blur.
 

Roni

Gold Member
You must be new, this has always been the case. Consoles are always less powerful than PC's and the generational leap never catches up to current day hardware. Consoles always lag behind due to cost.
 

Danjin44

The nicest person on this forum
OP's whole thing is that he doesn't like modern console gaming, doesn't like this gen of consoles and misses the time when consoles were ahead of the average PC and stuff like the Ps1 and Ps2 had a billion exclusives that didn't release on PC.

So unless next gen has like an RTX 2080 Ti and an Intel Core i9 9900K for $499 on top of around 30 exclusives a year he will complain
Then OP should just get PC and be done with it. I'm no expert but PCs are open systems, you can invest big amount of money to have top of the line CPU and GPU with monitors have high fresh rate, Even if Consoles end up having best CPU and GPU at the moment PC in no time will pass it. Like it or not Consoles are made so that average person can enjoy it without spending godly amount of money.
 
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vpance

Member
Worse than temporal injection ; TI doubles as good quality TAA with no artifacts like checkerboard has.

It's always a trade-off with less sharpness which you can spot pretty easily on a large enough screen.

In any case these sorts of techniques with improved algos will leave plenty of power leftover for RT and etc.
 

Ogbert

Member
f some of you guys that obsess over having most powerful gaming system, wouldn't you guys better off just getting PC? The fact is the consoles will never going to be as powerful as PC, they are just not.

Yep.

I genuinely don't understand the weird pc vs console argument. Not least because everyone talks about resolution when the single most important element of PC gaming is framerate.

I have a 2070. It can blow the arse out of most games. But I still love my PS4 and adore my Switch, for the unique games the offer.
 

Danjin44

The nicest person on this forum
Yep.

I genuinely don't understand the weird pc vs console argument. Not least because everyone talks about resolution when the single most important element of PC gaming is framerate.

I have a 2070. It can blow the arse out of most games. But I still love my PS4 and adore my Switch, for the unique games the offer.
Game, games, games!!! That all it matters when it comes to gaming system, PS2 was one of the best system even it was weakest out of the two because it had games. Thats the number one priority when it comes to choosing which system I would buy.
 
It's always a trade-off with less sharpness which you can spot pretty easily on a large enough screen.

In any case these sorts of techniques with improved algos will leave plenty of power leftover for RT and etc.
Not all TAA is created equal. I can honestly say that those 2 are pretty sharp games on a 4k display. Don't just listen to me, even digital foundry says TI is the best method.

Hell even titanfall 2 on pro is sharp enough, nice TAA there. Uncharted 4's TAA for example is kinda bad, or worse sonething like just cause 4 or halo reach.
 
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thelastword

Banned
tenor.gif


If some of you guys that obsess over having most powerful gaming system, wouldn't you guys better off just getting PC? The fact is the consoles will never going to be as powerful as PC, they are just not.
I can bet you if Sony offered a dual X 2080ti on PS5 and charge SlashbringingHasher appropriately, he would make a thread about how Sony is off their effing rocker making such a powerful console and charging so much for it....... He's probably going to comment.... "who the eff is going to buy that shit, ha ha ha" ...
 

vpance

Member
Not all TAA is created equal. I can honestly say that those 2 are pretty sharp games on a 4k display. Don't just listen to me, even digital foundry says TI is the best method.

Hell even titanfall 2 on pro is sharp enough, nice TAA there. Uncharted 4's TAA for example is kinda bad, or worse sonething like just cause 4 or halo reach.

I played SotC. It's clean, but a little soft to me. Places like DF are artifact hunting so I can see why they like it so much.

That said, the more games go filmic style, the more post fx softness will be tolerated. So I think in some future graphically heavy RT real time GI lit game you might see them go as low as 1440p.
 

Generic

Member
And I thought that the PS4 Pro was underwhelming...

PS4 was outdated on release yet DOOM and DMCV came out this generation running at 60 fps and looking great? I think you are overreacting.
The games don't fully take advantage of this hardware until it hits consoles and becomes the new target specs for almost everything, so making a gtx1080 the target for most games sounds a pretty big jump to me.

But look at how limited the Doom Snapmap was. We are getting another 7 years of multiplatform games being leveled down because of consoles. It's terrible.
 
That is rather subjective. DMC5 needs 60fps, but 60fps does not automatically make a game look better than a 30fps. In genres that do not need 60fps, I'll take better looking graphics over 60fps. Particularly when it has some proper motion blur.

Yes it does. It does indeed.

Motion resolution is crucial to image quality. All you folks denying the importance of framerate in image quality are just delusional or ignorant. And we should add frame pacing and image stability (especially temporal stability) to the equation.

There's no such thing as "genres that do not need 60fps".

Any game at a higher framerate looks and plays better. It's that simple.

The fact we've been drowned in sub-par experiences all life long doesn't make them good.

Console devs need to choose, but every single console exclusive game that has been ported to pc or to a newer console with better framerate is automatically its better version.

And fuck motion blur.
 
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CJY

Banned
If anything, it's just right. Even a slightly less powerful GPU than a 1080 is still amazing.
 

Generic

Member
better than a GTX 1080 in a console? Awesome !

I am not sure my brain is even ready to picture what games that look 5x as good God of War, Bloodborne and Uncharted 4 look like.
This isn't just about graphics. None of these games were demanding and c'mon, Bloodborne ran at 25 fps.
 
the 1080 was release 3 years ago in 2016. while it was 500 Dollars. it was still 3 damn years ago. that would make the console just like last gen, outdated on release day. am not expecting it to be as good as a current gen PC GPU at the high end. but giving us hardware thats maxed out on day one doesn't leave too much of a good taste in my mouth

am just using some of the leaks here that might not be true. 1080 performance is nothing to write home about. 1080 TI perf in 2020? yeah . that would be 4 years after these cards came out. thats pretty reasonable isn't it?.

hell even PS4 wasn't worse than a 2009 GPU.
You mean that old GPU that can do 4k and nearly 60fps?!?!

I think ppl forget that console's are a closed system and much easier to optimize for than PC's. IDK if you've seen what these dev's are able to squeeze out of a PS4/Xbox or Pro/X1. It's pretty impressive. What you didn't mention is that, based on those leaks, It's just behind the 2080... Glass 1/2 full or Glass 1/2 empty.
 

dalekjay

Member
OP is dehydrated, this is beyond good if is true, the video card that matches ps4 graphics dont output ps4 graphics on a PC, also price per performance, ps5 will be around half the price of good PC video card.
 
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dalekjay

Member
how much costs a 1080? even all these years after release 700? 800? even if a ps5 be crazy 800USD which is probably will not, still a better value / £
 

Generic

Member
You mean that old GPU that can do 4k and nearly 60fps?!?!

I think ppl forget that console's are a closed system and much easier to optimize for than PC's. IDK if you've seen what these dev's are able to squeeze out of a PS4/Xbox or Pro/X1. It's pretty impressive. What you didn't mention is that, based on those leaks, It's just behind the 2080... Glass 1/2 full or Glass 1/2 empty.
Like?
 
What does the CPU have to do with graphics?
People are confused because x86 CPUs vs custom/exotic console CPUs had different priorities/design goals back then.

As a traditional CPU, Emotion Engine was weaker than an out-of-order x86 core (P6/Pentium II) running at 300 MHz.

As a vector processor (VU0/VU1), Emotion Engine was leaps and bounds above anything else in the PC/x86 realm.

Emotion Engine was the precursor to Cell, which was kind of a proto-APU.

It was the Geforce 1 that was spanking the PS2 back then. I mean I loved my PS2, but my Geforce 1 at the time was in another class.
Correct:



GeForce 256 T&L capabilities were very amazing and this GPU released in 1999 (1 year before the PS2).

PS2 GS was just a rasterizer (akin to Riva TNT/3DFX Voodoo class on PCs) with insane fillrates (courtesy of eDRAM). You had to use EE VUs to do vertex processing, which was a bit more advanced/programmable than fixed-function T&L:




The console equivalent of the grass demo is this (which came later, but is a bit more impressive):



PS3 used Cell SPUs for vertex animation, since RSX only had 8 vertex pipelines.

And there's also this if we're talking about portable consoles:



This grass physics animation system is entirely GPGPU-driven and is even more advanced (you can cut it, burn it etc.)

A few months after the PS2 was released, GeForce 3 came out and it gave us this demo:



The console equivalent of GPU vertex facial animation was this:



Granted, GeForce 7 is way more advanced than GeForce 3, but my point is that it took consoles a while to adopt the programmable GPU shaders model.

PCs also had fur shaders since 2002 (GeForce 4):



PS2 was able to emulate fur shaders in SoTC (2005-2006):


If I had to make an analogy, I'd say it's like witnessing convergent evolution between mammals and marsupials (exotic species in Australia). In the end, the GPU paradigm shift has won and exotic species have become extinct.
 

Ellery

Member
This isn't just about graphics. None of these games were demanding and c'mon, Bloodborne ran at 25 fps.

I don't know what people expect. RTX Titan performance in a $399 console?

The overall product has to make sense for Sony and if one thing is for sure then that people on internet forums always dream of unrealistic consoles with 14+ TFLOPs.
I bet if I make a pastebin where I claim that the PS5 has more power than the new IBM Supercomputer that there are people who believe it and try to explain with the "secret sauce".

The GTX 1080 is a strong card. Sure I would always be happy with more, but people in general have a completely false understanding of what TFLOPs are and how they relate to what u see on the screen
Some people think that 10 TFLOPs would be disappointing and they want 14-16 TFLOPs.
How?
It doesn't matter to them they just want want want. They want. Why? They don't know but 14 is higher than 10 that is for sure !
14 means photorealistic graphics and 10 means Gameboy Advance graphics. That is what they think I feel.

They don't care about what is possible. If they were in charge they would just put in 90 Compute Units with 2500MHZ clock for a sweet 28 TFLOPs. If that thing consumes 450W then no problem we just put in two power supplies and have water cooling for that chip. Should be no problem those things are cheap. A gigantic 700mm² APU with CPU + GPU on 7nm+ with NASA space technologie in it. No problem it should easily fit in a 400$ console.

QuadrupleLOLtotheMoon.
 
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