• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
  • The Politics forum has been nuked. Please do not bring political discussion to the rest of the site, or you will be removed. Thanks.

News In the US, The Last of Us Part II has outsold Miles Morales and Ghost of Tsushima

Ulysses 31

Member
Nov 24, 2013
7,078
5,567
750
You said it ended the ambiguity at the end of the first game. That's not true considering Joel never told Ellie he regretted his decision and Ellie still would've sacrificed herself for the fireflies. If Joel ADMITTED he was wrong, then you would have a point, but he didn't.
Huh? The ambiguity was if Joel did the right thing getting Ellie back at the cost of possibly never getting a vaccine developed.

It was the right thing, the Fireflies were morally in the wrong and were going to get them both killed.

What decision you talking about? He never regretted saving her and he reaffirms that in TLOU2. If you mean the lying then yeah, he might've regretted that specifically but that's hardly the main component of the ambiguity of part I's end.
Did you even play the game?


It was never Ellie's initial intent to kill Nora, Mel and Owen. She just wanted them to give up Abby's location.

To Nora: Tell me where she went and I'll think about letting you go.
To Mel and Owen: You guys can survive this I just need her.

The only person she kills right away was Jordan and that was to protect Dina from being killed.

The WLF are also trained to kill on sight, and its not even her intent to kill anyone (other than Abby).
The issue is that the player gets no say in how Abby's crew end up but still gets quasi-lectured about how bad killing/revenge is each time.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
  • Thoughtful
Reactions: Isa and Whitecrow

DForce

Member
Nov 23, 2017
5,197
10,082
575
Huh? The ambiguity was if Joel did the right thing getting Ellie back at the cost of possibly never getting a vaccine developed.

It was, the Fireflies were morally in the wrong and were going to get them both killed.
What decision you talking about? He never regretted saving her and he reaffirms that in TLOU2. If you mean the lying then yeah, he might've regretted that specifically but that's hardly the main component of the ambiguity of part I's end.

Either Joel should've saved the world or save Ellie. It was morally ambiguous. That's it.


The issue is that the player gets no say in how Abby's crew end up but still gets quasi-lectured about how bad killing/revenge is each time.

It's not. You're spinning the obvious again. Not wasting my time with your post because your interpretation of the story is embarrassingly bad. lol
 
  • Like
Reactions: EDMIX and sol_bad

Umbral

Member
May 7, 2020
1,641
2,954
425
All those GOTY awards from media and gamers were results of this "damage" you've perceived?

Sarcastic Joke GIF


And how does the game make it to the top four in sales for the last 12 months if those sales "plummeted" after launch?

https://www.gamesindustry.biz/artic...-part-2-set-records-for-digital-sales-in-june
The game was half off early this month (June) and is currently half off on Amazon, but that’s not what I’m talking about.

You appear to be intentionally misunderstanding me.
You are part of them.
No. I’m not.
You're telling people its solely riding the coattails of the predecessors. When you use the word solely, you're saying that's the only reason and nothing else.
That was poor wording on my end. My mistake.
You don't want to believe people are buying it because they believe its a good game.
I really don’t care.
A small crowd of angry gamers online doesn't reflect every gamer out there.
This goes without saying.
That's something you don't understand.
I understand it perfectly well.
It's not a good game based on your own opinion, which is not shared by every who played the game.
Again, obvious.
The game has been the charts most of this year. If you actually followed the sales charts in the Pal region, then you would know this.
Sales do not always relate to quality.
You guys talk as if your opinions are facts and it's actually not.
No, my opinion is my opinion. You are free to have yours. I like some bad games too.
You don't win 100+ player choice awards across the world if most people shared the same opinion as you do.
If you place value in awards given by game journalists then you are foolish. The people who gave those awards were a small group of likeminded people, similarly to the “guys” you reference above. Their opinion also does not reflect the game’s overall quality any more than mine does.

I’ve said it before, technologically: peerless. Gameplay: so-so. Story: not good.
 

DForce

Member
Nov 23, 2017
5,197
10,082
575
I understand it perfectly well.

Again, obvious.

Sales do not always relate to quality.

If you understand it well, then you still wouldn't have a difficult time.

Your opinion is your own, but you think everyone shares the same opinion as you do.

"Sales do not always relate to quality" is an example. You wouldn't say anything like that unless you believe its a fact that its a bad game.

No, my opinion is my opinion. You are free to have yours. I like some bad games too.

You don't understand the difference between an opinion and a fact. You're trying to convince people that your opinion is a fact.

If you place value in awards given by game journalists then you are foolish. The people who gave those awards were a small group of likeminded people, similarly to the “guys” you reference above. Their opinion also does not reflect the game’s overall quality any more than mine does.

I’ve said it before, technologically: peerless. Gameplay: so-so. Story: not good.
I said PLAYER choice awards. The Player decides, not the journalist.

And you told me you were paying attention.
 

Neff

Member
Feb 6, 2012
13,146
2,220
1,080
UK
Regarding Joel's behavioural inconsistency between the two games, it's more than fair to assume he got soft. For one, you get sentimental in old age. I know. Two, he's become a (surrogate) father again. Three, he's sold himself a lie that civilisation has come back into his life. Tellingly, the moment he realises he's been duped, he instantly reverts to TLoU1 Joel- cold, cynical and abrupt.

His meeting with Abby is contrived because stories by their nature are contrived. As an audience we want to witness something rare and special. We want to jump in at a point where all the pieces defy circumstance, and have been assembled for a story to take place without wasting our time. Mileage varies where suspension of disbelief is concerned, and that tends to narrow when the character you have excessive attachment to is unceremoniously beaten about the head purely to get the real story going.

The person seeking revenge does stupid stuff to get revenge? Moby Dick. The person seeking revenge doesn't actually get revenge? Moby Dick. The fact that the game's subsequent narrative revolves around an aquarium with a giant whale as its centrepiece is a glaring slice of subtext impossible to miss, surely?
 

Umbral

Member
May 7, 2020
1,641
2,954
425
If you understand it well, then you still wouldn't have a difficult time.

Your opinion is your own, but you think everyone shares the same opinion as you do.

"Sales do not always relate to quality" is an example. You wouldn't say anything like that unless you believe its a fact that its a bad game.
No, I believe it is a bad game and I believe people that think it is a good game are wrong. I like games that people think are trash. This does not bother me.
You don't understand the difference between an opinion and a fact. You're trying to convince people that your opinion is a fact.
Yes, I do.

No. I’m not.
I said PLAYER choice awards. The Player decides, not the journalist.

And you told me you were paying attention.
What do you want from me? This is sport. I have my mind on other things too. I can also believe that those player’s are fools through the power of personal opinion.

This topic is tired. You like the game. I don’t think it should have ever been greenlit.
 
Last edited:
  • Triggered
Reactions: Magnific0giganticus

Heisenberg007

Member
Nov 16, 2020
2,555
8,586
455
No, I believe it is a bad game and I believe people that think it is a good game are wrong. I like games that people think are trash. This does not bother me.
So your opinion is right and others' opinions are incorrect?

This topic is tired. You like the game. I don’t think it should have ever been greenlit.
Good thing is that you represent an extreme minority in this case.

The game is a commercial and critical darling for the majority of gamers, as evident by massive sales success, brilliant 93/100 reviews, 100+ players' choice GOTY awards, and the highest GOTY awards in the history of gaming.
 

DForce

Member
Nov 23, 2017
5,197
10,082
575
What do you want from me? This is sport. I have my mind on other things too. I can also believe that those player’s are fools through the power of personal opinion.

This topic is tired. You like the game. I don’t think it should have ever been greenlit.


You don't realize that what you're saying is absolutely absurd.

Having your own opinion about the game is not the issue, the issue is that you're trying to tell us that most gamers feel the same way as YOU do about The Last of Us Part II.

The game sells well? You believe the only reason why its selling is because of the success of the first game. You said its the sole reason why, which means you're excluding any other reason. The game could very well sell millions of copies because of the positive reception to the game.

This is why I included you in that group. You guys believe that since YOU didn't like it, most gamers are going to feel the same way as you do.
 
Last edited:

Ulysses 31

Member
Nov 24, 2013
7,078
5,567
750
Either Joel should've saved the world or save Ellie. It was morally ambiguous. That's it.
I agree but you said there wasn't ambiguity because Joel regretted his decision.
It's not. You're spinning the obvious again. Not wasting my time with your post because your interpretation of the story is embarrassingly bad. lol
You're seeing things again, it's a statement of fact that the player can only watch during the final moments of Abby's crew. The preachy part is not indicative that I misinterpreted anything.
 

DForce

Member
Nov 23, 2017
5,197
10,082
575
You're seeing things again, it's a statement of fact that the player can only watch during the final moments of Abby's crew. The preachy part is not indicative that I misinterpreted anything.
Your reading is poor, dude. lol.

It doesn't matter if the player has no say, it's irrelevant. The game doesn't preach revenge is bad, neither is Ellie trying to get revenge on Abby's friends.
I agree but you said there wasn't ambiguity because Joel regretted his decision.
No, I said Joel didn't regret his decision. He never told Ellie that he did. He said he would do it all over again. It would ONLY change the ending if Joel said, "Yeah, I made a mistake".
You don't pay attention, dude. lol
 
  • Like
Reactions: EDMIX

Ulysses 31

Member
Nov 24, 2013
7,078
5,567
750
Your reading is poor, dude. lol.

It doesn't matter if the player has no say, it's irrelevant. The game doesn't preach revenge is bad, neither is Ellie trying to get revenge on Abby's friends.
That's a matter of opinion how the game conveys it's story/themes comes across to the player.

It's a bit bold of you to presume to know the correct interpretations and how players should perceive them unless you have a direct line to Druckmann's mind.
No, I said Joel didn't regret his decision. He never told Ellie that he did. He said he would do it all over again. It would ONLY change the ending if Joel said, "Yeah, I made a mistake".
You don't pay attention, dude. lol
You said it ended the ambiguity at the end of the first game. That's not true considering Joel never told Ellie he regretted his decision
Seemed like you were making a statement about Joel which do didn't really clarify when I asked about it.
 

DForce

Member
Nov 23, 2017
5,197
10,082
575
That's a matter of opinion how the game conveys it's story/themes comes across to the player.

It's a bit bold of you to presume to know the correct interpretations and how players should perceive them unless you have a direct line to Druckmann's mind.
You seem to know it since you're trying to defend his point that its about how revenge is bad.

Stop dude. lol

Seemed like you were making a statement about Joel which do didn't really clarify when I asked about it.
I said he never regretted it his decision, which pretty clear.
 

Ulysses 31

Member
Nov 24, 2013
7,078
5,567
750
You seem to know it since you're trying to defend his point that its about how revenge is bad.

Stop dude. lol
I'm confident enough to say that a theme of the game is that "if you seek revenge, you should dig 2 graves" yes. I'm sure not even you would dispute that.

Or is your take that the game's message is that (the cycle of) revenge isn't bad? That would be an interesting take indeed! :pie_open_mouth:
I said he never regretted it his decision, which pretty clear.
Agreed but the way you phrased it in the quote was unclear if you were speaking theoretically or making a statement but now you've cleared it up.
 

Topher

Gold Member
Sep 25, 2020
2,551
7,503
580
Atlanta, Georgia, USA
The game was half off early this month (June) and is currently half off on Amazon, but that’s not what I’m talking about.

You appear to be intentionally misunderstanding me.

No, I'm not misunderstanding you at all. You are simply making statements that do not line up with reality. Like I said, you don't explain how all this "damage" occurred when the game was rewarded overwhelmingly with end of year awards by gamers and media alike.



john turturro pete hogwallop GIF


Edit:

If you place value in awards given by game journalists then you are foolish. The people who gave those awards were a small group of likeminded people, similarly to the “guys” you reference above. Their opinion also does not reflect the game’s overall quality any more than mine does.

That is hilarious. So your personal opinion trumps all those GOTY awards.

Star Trek Bullshit GIF
 
Last edited:
  • LOL
  • Thoughtful
Reactions: SLB1904 and EDMIX

DForce

Member
Nov 23, 2017
5,197
10,082
575
I'm confident enough to say that a theme of the game is that "if you seek revenge, you should dig 2 graves" yes. I'm sure not even you would dispute that.

Or is your take that the game's message is that (the cycle of) revenge isn't bad? That would be an interesting take indeed! :pie_open_mouth:

You would have a point if the people involved were villain's, but they're not. Revenge is bad has to apply to everything, but it doesn't. Only reason why she didn't get revenge on Abby because she knew Joel was reasonable for her father's death. No one can say that these characters learned that revenge is bad.
 

Ulysses 31

Member
Nov 24, 2013
7,078
5,567
750
You would have a point if the people involved were villain's, but they're not. Revenge is bad has to apply to everything, but it doesn't. Only reason why she didn't get revenge on Abby because she knew Joel was reasonable for her father's death. No one can say that these characters learned that revenge is bad.
Oof, I'm sure you've heard of the concept "every villain is the hero of his own story", something the game also seemed to touch upon with all the perspective changes throughout the game. Abby was clearly a villain from Ellie's POV and Abby saw Ellie as a villain after Owen and Mel's death. Even if that might've changed at the end.
 
  • Thoughtful
Reactions: PropellerEar

Ulysses 31

Member
Nov 24, 2013
7,078
5,567
750
This makes your entire point irrelevant because it changed for a reason. smh. lol
Eh, I don't see how that particular plot twist would re-contextualize everything that happened before as "they never saw each other as the villain".

In other words, I don't think the destination erases the journey.
 
Last edited:

Maxwell Jacob Friedman

leads to fear. Fear leads to xbox.
Aug 13, 2020
1,964
3,726
555
They're following armed strangers around without assessing the situation with each other first, that's doesn't seem in character to me. Joel walking where he'd be surrounded seems weird too.

Makes sense that Tommy doesn't go picking fights with a larger armed group in front of him yes, letting them surround him from the sides does not. Same with announcing their real names when Joel had acknowledged what he'd done at the start of the game.

I already said that trusting Abby wasn't that strange. You keep ignoring Abby's crew who hadn't "earned" their trust nearly as much as Abby had.

Doesn't mean much that Joel is suspicious when he still mostly behaves like an unsuspicious person would.
Thats what makes his character more grounded to me. He's human and like in the first game makes mistakes. Joel isnt some elite solider during a pandemic with elite training etc. Hes just a man, and much like ordinary people he made a mistake as did Tommy by giving their names and once joel is shot and put against the window he has that glimmer of regret on his face being like "well i fucked up I should have been more careful"

just because joel was a loveable character doesnt mean he has plot armour to deter anything that comes his way. He has flaws ans makes mistakes and it cost him, much like other character in the games that have died, shit happens. Hell Tess was his number 2 and she got bit near the neck, shit happens and shit happens regardless of how careful you are, she even states "our luck had to run out sooner or later" same as joels
 
Last edited:
  • Like
  • Thoughtful
Reactions: Pietanic and EDMIX

Ulysses 31

Member
Nov 24, 2013
7,078
5,567
750
Thats what makes his character more grounded to me. He's human and like in the first game makes mistakes. Joel isnt some elite solider during a pandemic with elite training etc. Hes just a man, and much like ordinary people he made a mistake as did Tommy by giving their names and once joel is shot and put against the window he has that glimmer of regret on his face being like "well i fucked up I should have been more careful"
Well, Joel survived pretty long so you'd think he'd be wiser in that situation. If something happened that made him loose his edge then I think that's something that should at least be hinted at before it results in dramatic consequences. Now he makes such a rookie mistake for someone so experienced seemingly out of the blue.
just because joel was a loveable character doesnt mean he has plot armour to deter anything that comes his way. He has flaws ans makes mistakes and it costed him, much like other character in the games that have died, shit happens. Hell Tess was his number 2 and she got bit near the neck, shit happens and shit happens regardless of how careful you are, she even states "our luck had to run out sooner or later" same as joels
Yeah but TLOU2 Joel seemed to tempt fate with that WLF group rather than had his luck run out.
 

Maxwell Jacob Friedman

leads to fear. Fear leads to xbox.
Aug 13, 2020
1,964
3,726
555
Well, Joel survived pretty long so you'd think he'd be wiser in that situation. If something happened that made him loose his edge then I think that's something that should at least be hinted at before it results in dramatic consequences. Now he makes such a rookie mistake for someone so experienced seemingly out of the blue.

Yeah but TLOU2 Joel seemed to tempt fate with that WLF group rather than had his luck run out.
It was hinted at at the logs, there were countless times when on patrol not just joel and tommy but other people as well not only did they kill infected but they also helped and saved people as well, I believe there was one instance in the book where there were a few people injured and they used med kits and brought them back to the camp, abby and the wolfs are not the first time they run into people and helped and or saved them, its was just this time its was someone with bad intentions. Being a survivor you always tempt fate, what do you want joel to be a compmete shut in? If anything it was Tommy who did him in originally because he gave away the names. If abby doesnt know joel is joel they could have been saved. Tommy's guilt is what drives him all movie, also for joel he was getting older and softer, time beat him, its undefeated
 
  • Like
  • Thoughtful
Reactions: EDMIX and sol_bad

Salz01

Member
Jan 21, 2010
2,718
475
985
I’m playing through TLOU2 again, since the 60fps patch, and I skip every single cut scene. It’s a much better experience for me, and enjoy the game now.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Warablo

Ulysses 31

Member
Nov 24, 2013
7,078
5,567
750
It was hinted at at the logs, there were countless times when on patrol not just joel and tommy but other people as well not only did they kill infected but they also helped and saved people as well, I believe there was one instance in the book where there were a few people injured and they used med kits and brought them back to the camp, abby and the wolfs are not the first time they run into people and helped and or saved them, its was just this time its was someone with bad intentions. Being a survivor you always tempt fate, what do you want joel to be a compmete shut in? If anything it was Tommy who did him in originally because he gave away the names. If abby doesnt know joel is joel they could have been saved. Tommy's guilt is what drives him all movie, also for joel he was getting older and softer, time beat him, its undefeated
I'm not familiar with all the logs but helping (injured)people of your own volition is quite different from mingling with armed strangers you're forced to shelter with. How is that seen as losing your survival edge on the field? I'm willing to bet they first checked for signs of a trap rather than helping people willy nilly.

Joel seemed liked by the Jackson community he's a part of now suggesting he's not a shut in.

I've focussed mostly on Joel but Tommy had a bit of a strange character shift too in TLOU2. He knows that people might still be after Joel from the opening game cut-scene yet he still pulled this stunt. He also tells Ellie to give up her quest only to guilt trip into it later on again.

Joel might've gotten softer towards Jackson residents because he lives there now, I don't see why that would extend to outsiders. Joel could've taken every precaution and still end up getting killed, I'd think that story route would've been more fitting than the one we got.
 
Last edited:

Faithless83

Member
Mar 9, 2020
1,551
3,935
480
You said it ended the ambiguity at the end of the first game. That's not true considering Joel never told Ellie he regretted his decision and Ellie still would've sacrificed herself for the fireflies. If Joel ADMITTED he was wrong, then you would have a point, but he didn't.
Did you read the part where I said that everything the second game did was to shit on the first game legacy?
What father in their right mind would give up their child for a possibility of finding the cure?
Yet the game revolves around how it was the wrong decision the entire time.

Just so we are aligned on the ambiguity part (amazing channel btw):

This will save me from writing and you from reading a text wall.
Did you even play the game?


It was never Ellie's initial intent to kill Nora, Mel and Owen. She just wanted them to give up Abby's location.

To Nora: Tell me where she went and I'll think about letting you go.
To Mel and Owen: You guys can survive this I just need her.

The only person she kills right away was Jordan and that was to protect Dina from being killed.

The WLF are also trained to kill on sight, and its not even her intent to kill anyone (other than Abby).
Yeah she killed everyone and ruined her relationship, just to give up on the whole revenge plot by the end of it.
Amazing lack o logic there.

It may have great graphics, but very little evolved gameplay wise and the story was a dumpster fire.
 

Umbral

Member
May 7, 2020
1,641
2,954
425
So your opinion is right and others' opinions are incorrect?
It’s called a difference of opinion.
Good thing is that you represent an extreme minority in this case.
I think you might be overdoing it with the term “extreme.”
The game is a commercial and critical darling for the majority of gamers, as evident by massive sales success, brilliant 93/100 reviews, 100+ players' choice GOTY awards, and the highest GOTY awards in the history of gaming.
Appealing to the majority does not equate quality. They can give it every game award ever and I will still consider it a bad game.
You don't realize that what you're saying is absolutely absurd.

Having your own opinion about the game is not the issue, the issue is that you're trying to tell us that most gamers feel the same way as YOU do about The Last of Us Part II.
No, most do not. A large minority does.
The game sells well? You believe the only reason why its selling is because of the success of the first game. You said its the sole reason why, which means you're excluding any other reason.
I already mentioned that I worded what I said poorly. Why are you using this argument again?
The game could very well sell millions of copies because of the positive reception to the game.

This is why I included you in that group. You guys believe that since YOU didn't like it, most gamers are going to feel the same way as you do.
I also disagree with parts of that group on other things. How much further would you like to fragment “you guys?”
No, I'm not misunderstanding you at all. You are simply making statements that do not line up with reality. Like I said, you don't explain how all this "damage" occurred when the game was rewarded overwhelmingly with end of year awards by gamers and media alike.
People have a worse opinion of Naughty Dog and PlayStation following TLoU2. That’s the damage. You knew what I was referring to and if you didn’t, well, I can’t do your thinking for you every time.
john turturro pete hogwallop GIF


Edit:



That is hilarious. So your personal opinion trumps all those GOTY awards.

Star Trek Bullshit GIF
I don’t place value in GOTY awards, so, yes.
 

DForce

Member
Nov 23, 2017
5,197
10,082
575
Did you read the part where I said that everything the second game did was to shit on the first game legacy?
What father in their right mind would give up their child for a possibility of finding the cure?
Yet the game revolves around how it was the wrong decision the entire time.

Just so we are aligned on the ambiguity part (amazing channel btw):

This will save me from writing and you from reading a text wall.

Yeah she killed everyone and ruined her relationship, just to give up on the whole revenge plot by the end of it.
Amazing lack o logic there.

It may have great graphics, but very little evolved gameplay wise and the story was a dumpster fire.
No, your belief is based on a random YouTuber who failed to understand the story. If this is what you pull up every single time someone askes you explain why, then that's simply just embarrassing. lol.

He (just like you) didn't understand the ending and what he meant, so you just used it in your argument which leaves you here making no sense at all. No matter how many YouTubers you pull up, if they failed to grasp the meaning of the ending, then they're wrong. Period.

The fact that you told me that the cure was only a possibility shows you never understood the first game at all.
 

DForce

Member
Nov 23, 2017
5,197
10,082
575
No, most do not. A large minority does.
I already mentioned that I worded what I said poorly. Why are you using this argument again?
I also disagree with parts of that group on other things. How much further would you like to fragment “you guys?”
In other words, your opinion does not represent the majority of gamers who played it and you always come up with excuses why the game was praised by many gamers who played it. Got it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: EDMIX

Topher

Gold Member
Sep 25, 2020
2,551
7,503
580
Atlanta, Georgia, USA
People have a worse opinion of Naughty Dog and PlayStation following TLoU2. That’s the damage. You knew what I was referring to and if you didn’t, well, I can’t do your thinking for you every time.

I don’t place value in GOTY awards, so, yes.

Not "people". You. Just as you do not value GOTY awards and you do not represent other "people" who you think have a worse opinion of....blah blah blah. Why is this so hard for you?

YOU don't like the game. That's it. Nothing more. Stop there. That's fine.

Ending New Year GIF by Looney Tunes
 
Last edited:
  • Like
  • Praise the Sun
Reactions: sol_bad and EDMIX

DForce

Member
Nov 23, 2017
5,197
10,082
575
Fucking…duh.

It’s called disagreement. I think you are fighting some ghost in your head.
You still haven't caught on the fact that you tried to make it appear like most people agreed with you.
Don't complain when people point this out.
 
  • Like
Reactions: EDMIX and Topher

Umbral

Member
May 7, 2020
1,641
2,954
425
Not "people". You. Just as you do not value GOTY awards and you do not represent other "people" who you think have a worse opinion of....blah blah blah. Why is this so hard for you?

YOU don't like the game. That's it. Nothing more. Stop there. That's fine.

Ending New Year GIF by Looney Tunes
I don’t know if it’s the wisest thing to say that I stand alone in this opinion. I mean, look at this thread.

You bore me.
You still haven't caught on the fact that you tried to make it appear like most people agreed with you.
Don't complain when people point this out.
No, but I did imply a lot of people do, and that is accurate. Kick rocks.
 

Topher

Gold Member
Sep 25, 2020
2,551
7,503
580
Atlanta, Georgia, USA
I don’t know if it’s the wisest thing to say that I stand alone in this opinion. I mean, look at this thread.

No one else, that I can tell, has been claiming that their opinion represent the consensus of "people" like you were. Seems you are finally realizing it but too proud to admit it. Good enough for me though.

You bore me.

Sad Idiot GIF by Film Riot
Not Funny Reaction GIF by Bounce
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: EDMIX

Umbral

Member
May 7, 2020
1,641
2,954
425
No one else, that I can tell, has been claiming that their opinion represent the consensus of "people" like you were. Seems you are finally realizing it but too proud to admit it. Good enough for me though.
You appear to struggle with reading comprehension. Where have I said that my “opinion represents the consensus of ’people’.”? I actually said the opposite of that.

I had no idea that you and TLoU2 were that close.
 

Topher

Gold Member
Sep 25, 2020
2,551
7,503
580
Atlanta, Georgia, USA
You appear to struggle with reading comprehension. Where have I said that my “opinion represents the consensus of ’people’.”? I actually said the opposite of that.

Dr Evil Whatever GIF


People have a worse opinion of Naughty Dog and PlayStation following TLoU2. That’s the damage. You knew what I was referring to and if you didn’t, well, I can’t do your thinking for you every time.

The game did damage to the TLoU brand, the PlayStation brand, Naughty Dog’s reputation, and many other things that ripple out from there."

Then you shouldn't throw around references to "People" so easily especially when making such grand statements about the damage done to the entire PlayStation brand. But good. Now you are saying sensible things like "my opinion". Keep it up.

Youre Doing Great Swimming Pool GIF by The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel
 

Woggleman

Member
Jan 1, 2020
2,128
3,301
445
Any artist worth anything will create something polarizing at least once so I find nothing wrong with them doing it. If you make no waves it just means that you play it safe and that gets boring.
 

Umbral

Member
May 7, 2020
1,641
2,954
425
Dr Evil Whatever GIF






Then you shouldn't throw around references to "People" so easily especially when making such grand statements about the damage done to the entire PlayStation brand. But good. Now you are saying sensible things like "my opinion". Keep it up.

Youre Doing Great Swimming Pool GIF by The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel
You are hopeless.
 

DenchDeckard

Member
Feb 28, 2021
1,854
3,237
375
This game must have caused more discussions than any other before it. Just goes to show how incredible the first game was. 2 was a great game with better gameplay but I prefer the first by a considerable amount. That’s not dissing the second game, it’s just not as good as the first to me.

I have no qualms with most of 2, it is what it is.
 

Maxwell Jacob Friedman

leads to fear. Fear leads to xbox.
Aug 13, 2020
1,964
3,726
555
It’s called a difference of opinion.

I think you might be overdoing it with the term “extreme.”

Appealing to the majority does not equate quality. They can give it every game award ever and I will still consider it a bad game.

No, most do not. A large minority does.

I already mentioned that I worded what I said poorly. Why are you using this argument again?

I also disagree with parts of that group on other things. How much further would you like to fragment “you guys?”

People have a worse opinion of Naughty Dog and PlayStation following TLoU2. That’s the damage. You knew what I was referring to and if you didn’t, well, I can’t do your thinking for you every time.

I don’t place value in GOTY awards, so, yes.
Avatar bet that if/when part 3 comes out it outsells part 2 in its first week sales but also lifetime sales

Also playstation as a brand is so damaged....so damaged that the ps5 is never in stock, always sold out, and is breaking records as well....the sign of brand damage.....
 

tassletine

Member
Oct 24, 2007
1,529
620
1,235
Regarding Joel's behavioural inconsistency between the two games, it's more than fair to assume he got soft. For one, you get sentimental in old age. I know. Two, he's become a (surrogate) father again. Three, he's sold himself a lie that civilisation has come back into his life. Tellingly, the moment he realises he's been duped, he instantly reverts to TLoU1 Joel- cold, cynical and abrupt.

His meeting with Abby is contrived because stories by their nature are contrived. As an audience we want to witness something rare and special. We want to jump in at a point where all the pieces defy circumstance, and have been assembled for a story to take place without wasting our time. Mileage varies where suspension of disbelief is concerned, and that tends to narrow when the character you have excessive attachment to is unceremoniously beaten about the head purely to get the real story going.

The person seeking revenge does stupid stuff to get revenge? Moby Dick. The person seeking revenge doesn't actually get revenge? Moby Dick. The fact that the game's subsequent narrative revolves around an aquarium with a giant whale as its centrepiece is a glaring slice of subtext impossible to miss, surely?
I mentioned this earlier, but this sort of inconsistency is what makes the writing subpar, or at least not as great as everyone thinks.
It's good for a videogame but shits the bed in terms of competition in another medium-- That you and the game (apparently) want to compare it to Moby Dick is a bit much.

As you pointed out -- One moment it's asking you to infer Joel's actions, the next it's utterly contrived, or has a pregnant lady climbing rope etc etc.
You really can't have it both ways and expect people to understand both sides --Unless you're writing to provoke which seems to be the case here.

If every time an inconsistency comes up it can be put down to what you can infer, then almost any situation can be rendered invalid, as it comes down to what each viewer brings to it and the backstories that they've made up themselves. So Joel has flipped character and is soft now -- and pregnant lady has been using Abby's steroids, blah blah. Still doesn't make it coherent.

They could have shown Joel's character changing, and made us feel that, rather than walking us around an aquarium for half an hour looking for a Moby Dick reference.
Sure, that was an interesting chapter....So looking forward to hearing Owens scintillating dialogue on my next playthrough ....I'm being too harsh, but that part of the game was dogshit.

The main problem for me is that really the basic plot (heart of darkness) has been done to death in videogames.
The first game gave you something genuinely fresh in that it started off as something you'd seen before that slowly revealed it's self to be a character study. This is almost the opposite.

LOU2's story is really nothing but a standard videogame plot padded out with exactly the sort of dialogue you get from that sort of game. Constant melodrama, dumb choices, No! No! No! the floor is caving in moments that ND have done to death. We've seen it before, and despite some of the writing being good and the worldbuilding excellent, it's still an extremely conservative game in it's approach to story.

If there is some sensible criticism of the story, I'd like to hear it as most of it just boils down to "I like it because" and then someone firing back because they've imagined something different.
If this game is as serious about it's goals as it appears to be, then it needs to be criticised as such. Things like overlength, reusing of tropes, redundant scenes and crappy supporting characters come to mind.
It's a horribly paced story that works as a game because you can take a break from it -- Now I'm not sure about you, but the only reason I was wondering how it ended was because of the first game, not because I found the story gripping or the gameplay was still thrilling me.
 

Neff

Member
Feb 6, 2012
13,146
2,220
1,080
UK
Now I'm not sure about you, but the only reason I was wondering how it ended was because of the first game, not because I found the story gripping or the gameplay was still thrilling me.

I knew how it ended because of the leak, and I couldn't help myself, because TLoU1 wasn't that big a deal to me, even though I enjoyed it. Despite that, I ended up digging TLoU2's story much, much more than I expected, to the point where I consider the sequel superior in every way.
 

tassletine

Member
Oct 24, 2007
1,529
620
1,235
I knew how it ended because of the leak, and I couldn't help myself, because TLoU1 wasn't that big a deal to me, even though I enjoyed it. Despite that, I ended up digging TLoU2's story much, much more than I expected, to the point where I consider the sequel superior in every way.
Strange that you delved that far into a game that held little interest to you.
Having said that and contrary to instinct, you will enjoy a story more if you know how it ends.

 
  • Triggered
Reactions: mckmas8808