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Horizon Forbidden West game director says cross-gen development was "not limiting in any way", so many great ideas ended up being included

mckmas8808

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What agenda do I have with telling the facts? You literally "see" right in front of your face how games are designed. We do NOT develop graphics engines from a console nor do we limit what we want to do based only on a low-end console. This isn't a conversation up for debate, it's actual FACT! I just get tired of people ignoring those facts.

Yes devs do. I've heard them talk about game design plenty of times. Who do you think you're fooling. VFXVeteran VFXVeteran its clear to all of us that you know you stuff, so why are you doing this man? You act as if we "gamers" haven't spent an hour or more every year listening to devs talk about game development at GDC or other events.

- If one console has 5 usable GBs of RAM and the other console has 13 GBs of RAM............that matters.
- If one console has a 5400 RPM mechanical Hard Drive and the other console has a super fast SSD...........that matters.
- If one console has sucky sucky 2012 made for mobile Jaguar cores CPU running at 850 MHz and the other console has a modern desktop CPU running at 3.5 GHz..............that matters.
- If one console has a 1.8 TF GCN architecture GPU and the other console has a 10 TF RDNA2 GPU.........that matters.
- If one console DOESN'T have ANY built-in hardware to help with I/O bottlenecks and the other console has plenty of hardware to basically eliminate I\O bottlenecks.......that matters.
 

hemo memo

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Who to believe, a game director bullshit doing damage control or the system architect and common sense?… hmm that’s a tough one.

Dear Jimbo and Sony..
You made the stupid decision from a core consumer point of view to keep support of previous gen which will limit games as explained by the system architect and by logic of technology advancements. Now you have to stop the bullshit and move on.
 

mckmas8808

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How do you know he's lying?


 

SlimySnake

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Lmao youre expecting alot. Developers throw parties when they make leafs move. You bascially want Minecraft destruction with Uncharted 5 graphics with a map the size of Just Cause 5.
Nah.

this was done on a gtx 970. a gpu roughly on par with the ps4 pro.


Games are supposed to be interactive physics heavy playgrounds. there is a reason why half life 2's gravity gun blew people away. nowadays everyone is just happy to jerk off to some canned destruction.
 
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hemo memo

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Wow. I sincerely hope that people on these boards will now stop talking about this shit. It has gotten to epic levels of ridiculousness and people arguing with me to no end about how "wrong" I am about this. Why does it take the actual engineers from these companies to make people believe? And yet, I can guarantee a dollar to a dime, people will STILL mention next-gen being held back by cross-gen.

You are wrong. I can take a random person on the streets to a computer store and say “This machine is more powerful than this one” and they’ll understand the concept yet it is so hard for you to put 1+1.

PS4 Pro is limited by the base PS4.

Every fucking machine on the planet is limited by the weaker one doing the same work dude.
 

martino

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So, which game is your favorite Unreal Engine 5 title that you've played, so far?



Have you played Returnal or Destruction All-Stars? Rocks disappear on the ground, and characters clip, even in next-gen exclusives. (However, rubble do not disappear on the ground in Demon's Souls on PS5... or on PS3.)
And you ? have you compared horizon ps4 to PS5 ? Could set a new precedent.
And will we ontinue to use this quote to say things not in it? The guy describe how thing are done not how they will be.
We'll see. But working in IT for more than 10 years i changed more than once most of my practices.
If someone is obtuse and short sighted here it's not me
 
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Zeroing

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Cerny talked about how devs pretty much begged him to include SSD. Now this bullshit director comes in and say we weren’t limited. Get the fuck out of here.
Time to put an ssd on my PS4, problem solved.

I’m not a game developer and I’m sure neither is you so can we really call “bullshit” on something we have no idea of how it works?

we gamers believed in way worse ridiculous things. This one seems plausible!
 

//DEVIL//

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“Says otherwise and you are fired “ - Sony

me to the dev: shut the hell up with this horseshit. As if the Horizon PS5 exclusive will look the same as this. It will look miles better.

I do not understand, Does fucking Sony think their audience is just stupid naive people that believe anything they say? this is not the fucking 90s.


You decided to release the game on PS4 just like the rest of your lineup. shut the fuck up and take the heat. Don't damage control it with stupid comments " oh an 8 years old piece of shit GPU/CPU isn't affecting the game development at all !!

Just be honest and say it makes more financial sense to release it on both systems. this way gamers will enjoy more of horizon games as sales will be higher on both platforms than just the PS5. Not only you will be respected, it will also make more sense for everyone.

like seriously, fuck off. I hope this fat ass bitch Aloy fails in sales as well. so these SJW can cry a river as some top heads get fired.

Fire Jim while we are at it.
 
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hemo memo

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Time to put an ssd on my PS4, problem solved.

I’m not a game developer and I’m sure neither is you so can we really call “bullshit” on something we have no idea of how it works?

we gamers believed in way worse ridiculous things. This one seems plausible!
Again, because it is somehow hard for you too to put 1+1 together. From the person who knows about the hardware better than anyone.

here:
 

mckmas8808

Ah. Peace and quiet. #ADayWithoutAWoman
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Again, because it is somehow hard for you too to put 1+1 together. From the person who knows about the hardware better than anyone.

here:

The lead designer of both the PS4 and PS5 would know a thing or two about them huh? Sony needs to talk to their PR team and set them straight. They need to stop lying to us. Hell, we are happy enough with the games no need to lie about the development of them.
 

SlimySnake

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Cerny talked about how devs pretty much begged him to include SSD. Now this bullshit director comes in and say we weren’t limited. Get the fuck out of here.
the best part is how he was making the rounds in 2015 asking devs what they want. A couple of years before they even released horizon. you would think that a first party studio wouldve jumped on the chance to take advantage of this new tech.

instead it was insomniac, then a third party studio who decided to make ratchet around the ssd and i/o advantages. just shocking.
 
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Nah.

this was done on a gtx 970. a gpu roughly on par with the ps4 pro.


Games are supposed to be interactive physics heavy playgrounds. there is a reason why half life 2's gravity gun blew people away. nowadays everyone is just happy to jerk off to some canned destruction.
Cool what game is that from? Looks very interactive. Is it on PC?

What game has full destruction? Minecraft?
 

Shelookdlvl18

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I do not understand, Does fucking Sony think their audience is just stupid naive people that believe anything they say? this is not the fucking 90s.
Well....

Not worth the ban, but I did do a double take when I read that. 🤣

I think the best thing to do is simply wait and see the results once the game releases. People are getting upset about what might or might not have been included in a game they've seen very little of.
 
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keram

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This is old.

And wrong.

The game started development as a PS4 title. Thats why it was not limiting.

I would like to see flying in this game. And then I would like to see the speed of the flying. If it's the same across both versions a la Spiderman then we know it was limiting.
So the PS5 Version is not next-gen but just an enhanced BC game ? :messenger_grinning_sweat:

Holly shit, can't wait to see "real" next-gen on PS5 :messenger_beaming:
 

kuncol02

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How do you know he's lying?
When PS5 was presented one of arguments about that fast SSD was lack of flying mounts in Horizon which were planed, but were cut because HDD was not fast enough to stream data. That's straight from Horizon developers. If they are now talking about not being limited by PS4 then they are lying now, or were lying then.
 
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Stooky

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Yes, your response makes perfect sense and I'm not being sarcastic in saying that. Also, my 'high horse' remark was directed at the general tone of your comment not your capacity within the video game industry. It's totally fair and logical to point out a severely misinformed opinion on something especially when you have much greater knowledge due to exposure and hands on experience in said industry as long as you don't indulge in any logical fallacies to do so (which is what I originally picked up on).

Thanks for your effortful response BTW, I'm not being sarcastic in saying that either.
I appreciate your response as well!
 
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hemo memo

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The lead designer of both the PS4 and PS5 would know a thing or two about them huh? Sony needs to talk to their PR team and set them straight. They need to stop lying to us. Hell, we are happy enough with the games no need to lie about the development of them.
EXACTLY. I am ready for Rift Apart this Friday and very disappointed that Horizon will not be a next-gen only game but will still be there but come the fuck on Sony. Don’t lie to my face.
 
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SlimySnake

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When PS5 was presented one of arguments about that fast SSD was lack of flying mounts in Horizon which were planed, but were cut because HDD was not fast enough to stream data. That's straight from Horizon developers. If they are now talking about not being limited by PS4 then they are lying now, or were lying then.
They werent lying then but they werent being completely honest either.

I have seen a behind the scenes video of Aloy flying on a stormbird.. more like hovering and the downgrade in visuals was striking. it did not look like the same game and it was clear to me why it was taken out. The graphics quality wouldve taken a bit hit because they wouldve needed to keep a lot more data in VRAM which means lower quality assets everywhere. It was an unlisted video and I really wish I had saved it because it was a great example of how devs have to cut corners.

Another thing that got cut because it wouldve cost graphics to take a major hit was coop. the game was initially conceived as a two player coop game but they couldnt get the graphics to look good with two players so they gutted it altogether.

With just how fast the SSD can load data in and out of vram, it should pretty much eliminate any concerns about streaming higher quality assets without downgrading graphics.

Now they havent shown flying in the game, and Death stranding had those ziplines that essentially let you fly around the map so its possible they have improved their streaming tech. After all, spiderman essentially lets you fly around a very highly detailed map so its not like the ps4 gpu and vram cant handle it. the problem is the speed of the flying. if both versions have the same cruise speed then we know the ps4 was the limiting factor. If they decide to balance this gameplay mechanic different across the two versions then great, but this almost never happens in cross gen games unless they are downported by a different studio.

Gameplay mechanics remain identical across generations. its just how it is. no dev is creating, testing and maintaining two different versions of the same game. If flying is in, it will be in on both consoles. If it is in both consoles, it will the same speed and thus, held back.
 
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Tschumi

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Here's something I've noted...

...forum goers seem to naturally, organically, shuffle away from the reality of their position over time and come to have totally unrealistic interpretations of reality.

i mean, scores of people have posted here saying this guy's full of it, that it is all sneaky stuff they're saying to cover up for being dishonest, amateur fools about these two intersecting console generations.

These posters seem so sure that they a) know exactly what the truth is and b) know more than career game developers and their bosses, working at hugely successful game companies and producing content that oftentimes redefines professional standards in their discipline.

Do you guys seriously think the three stooges are in charge of all these companies? Then why don't you fucking apply for their jobs and get hired to get the whole industry back on track? We could really use your help guys, exclusive games have really been going down the shitter the last 5 years or so.... haven't they? ... wait a second...

Maybe this guy is actually, generously, telling you how it really is? Maybe your shallow interpretations of what causes cross-gen games, and what the consequences of them are, is fallible? Maybe people with more creativity than you, with great organization systems designed to foster and bring out that creativity, have done something special? Maybe if you spend a week in their offices in the Netherlands you'll come out humble as hell and telling everyone they're actually hugely impressive and hard working?

Just some thoughts. U gotta scale back your sense of wisdom on this stuff guys, unless u work for rockstar or something and have a right to wade into this stuff... Forbidden West looks fantastic, in the high-90s percentile for best looking games ever created. Be not so quick to shrug off their professionalism and integrity.
 

Vognerful

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“"I think that the big delta between these two consoles, apart from the 3D audio, quick loading and DualSense of course, is on the graphical side of things.”
Bullshit Reaction GIF by MOODMAN


Seriously though… Jaguar at 1.6 GHz -> 3.5 GHz Ryzen 2 is a massive jump, how can that not be described as a BIG delta?!?
Blame Jim. In his interview and different quotes, he did not emphasize or mention the CPU difference.
 

kuncol02

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If one console has sucky sucky 2012 made for mobile Jaguar cores CPU running at 850 MHz and the other console has a modern desktop CPU running at 3.5 GHz..............that matters.
1,6ghz. That CPU was shitty enough without cutting half of it's speed.

With just how fast the SSD can load data in and out of vram, it should pretty much eliminate any concerns about streaming higher quality assets without downgrading graphics.
And there still will be no flying because it needs to run from HDD and they don't want to sacrifice graphic fidelity. Doesn't that means that they are limited by what PS4 is capable of?
 

hemo memo

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“"I think that the big delta between these two consoles, apart from the 3D audio, quick loading and DualSense of course, is on the graphical side of things.”
Bullshit Reaction GIF by MOODMAN


Seriously though… Jaguar at 1.6 GHz -> 3.5 GHz Ryzen 2 is a massive jump, how can that not be described as a BIG delta?!?
Because you need to follow the company line. Funny how PS5 is a massive jump from PS4 and not much difference at the same time.
 

mxbison

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If minimum specs never existed on PC, why have I always had to upgrade my hardware every 4-5 years to run those new games properly?

Did I miss the infinite scaling slider?
 
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Corndog

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Yes devs do. I've heard them talk about game design plenty of times. Who do you think you're fooling. VFXVeteran VFXVeteran its clear to all of us that you know you stuff, so why are you doing this man? You act as if we "gamers" haven't spent an hour or more every year listening to devs talk about game development at GDC or other events.

- If one console has 5 usable GBs of RAM and the other console has 13 GBs of RAM............that matters.
- If one console has a 5400 RPM mechanical Hard Drive and the other console has a super fast SSD...........that matters.
- If one console has sucky sucky 2012 made for mobile Jaguar cores CPU running at 850 MHz and the other console has a modern desktop CPU running at 3.5 GHz..............that matters.
- If one console has a 1.8 TF GCN architecture GPU and the other console has a 10 TF RDNA2 GPU.........that matters.
- If one console DOESN'T have ANY built-in hardware to help with I/O bottlenecks and the other console has plenty of hardware to basically eliminate I\O bottlenecks.......that matters.
Your last point has no bearing in fact. I agree with the rest but even then I don’t see a scenario that would be game changing.
 

Kumomeme

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i get lot of people here 'dissapointed'. no matter how much people disagree with him or dislike what he said, but atleast tone down the 'hostility' a bit will ya.

Breathe Schitts Creek GIF by CBC
 
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The only clown present is a certain burgler.
Your lack of a ability to see the whole picture is astounding. Please explain how series S hinders if every single xbox game is on pc as well? You can't, since that's what's happening. The weakest link isn't and won't be the series S, it's pc. And it will be for many years.

I’ve heard it all now. Pc is the weakest link. When a certain device is doing 672p... clueless .

Pc is never the weakest link you would know that if you game on anything other than a Xbox
 
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MonarchJT

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Sony diehards still wondering why the constant damage control by the devs now? If only Sony would’ve been clear from the beginning...sucks the devs have to be doing this now...
this should be the perfect example f when in this forum people try to take devs as gospel when they too are nothing more than employees who have to undergo decisions and many times forced to lie shamelessly.
 
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jigglet

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On the one hand if you're saying PS4 isn't holding you back, doesn't that imply PS5 isn't adding all that much either?

On the other hand VFXVeteran seems to know what he's talking about. I'm ignorant about this I'll admit.

I think the smartest post in this whole train wreck of a thread was on page 1 when SlimySnake SlimySnake speculated it simply started off as a PS4 game and that's why PS4 hasn't held it back. I mean it makes sense. It's probably 2 years into development? No way it was planned as PS5-only that early on. I think Slimy hit the nail on the freaking head, mic drop.
 
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FunkMiller

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I'm glad that at least in this thread almost nobody is buying the bullshit. Small steps.

I don‘t know. A lot seem to be to me. Either hardcore Sony pro console warriors who can’t stand to criticise anything the company does, or PC warriors who want to convince everyone that any game is scalable up and down in every respect.
 

Hobbygaming

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So if we believe him, what we are getting this generation is just higher frame rate/higher resolution?
But Sony also said we believe in generation. I was expecting new generation should open new opportunities. But here, he is saying that the new generation is bringing anything on the table.

At the end of the day, we are just in a middle of damage control by Sony and it starts to look really bad.
They're selling their game but anyone thinking that they can't do more with a much more powerful GPU, CPU and a highly advanced SSD is lying to themselves
 
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Hobbygaming

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In God of War 2 on PS4 they can still have the walking for a few seconds from fast travel door to fast travel door.

On PS5, they can just make you walk through it. Idk why it being cross-gen, would stop you from doing this.

In Horizon this wouldnt make sense. Maybe the Aloy goes to sleep and wakes up in another bonfire, instantly

What next gen only ideas do people want in Horizon2 and GOW2?

I just want more enemies and more graphics from GOW2.
I want air riding, more enemies, and GRAPHICS.
There was one rumored feature that I read about for God of War 2018 where you could be knocked into a different area during gameplay like in the cinematic in The Stranger fight when he uppercuts Kratos

For Horizon Zero Dawn the Jaguar CPUs couldn't handle flying mounts. We don't know if they've found a workaround
 

Kimahri

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He's just a dev at a studio known for making graphical showcases. What would he know?
 

sinnergy

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He's just a dev at a studio known for making graphical showcases. What would he know?
I am sure he can grasp that developing for a PS4 pro with max 4 TF and a Ps5 with 10. tf makes a difference.. let alone the different hard drives ..

Better was not mentioning what he said at all.
 
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dvdvideo

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I’ve heard it all now. Pc is the weakest link. When a certain device is doing 672p... clueless .

Pc is never the weakest link you would know that if you game on anything other than a Xbox

Think about this for 2 seconds before you post, min pc spec is less ram, far weaker processor, and far weaker gpu. Not to mention they won't even run features like rt.

Let's take a recent aaa pc game, resident evil village for example, here's the min pc spec:

AMD Ryzen 3 1200 or Intel Core i5-7500 CPU, AMD Radeon RX 560 (4GB) or Nvidia GeForce GTX 1050 Ti (4GB) GPU, 8GB of RAM

If you think an rx560/gtx1050 with those cpu's isn't completely trounced by the closed architecture newer system the series s uses, you are brain dead. The series s is at minimum twice as powerfull as this min pc spec, leaning more like 3 times with modern efficiencies vs the 5 year old entry level gpu that is a gtx1050. And by the way, before you say no pc gamer plays at this, check steam stats and you'll find a good portion just above this at 1060 level. And its irrelevant anyhow, as the game must be designed to actually run at the minimum spec - so it's still, by a wide, wide margin, the weakest link.

And my pc, ps5, and switch that I game on all say hi.
 
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DiscoDave

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What ideas could they have included if it wasn't cross-gen?
How would I know when I haven't played the game yet. Simple fact is cross gen does affect game development because your limited to shit hardware. Just look at the Cerny talk about how slow HDD affected how you would develop a game World. Shit just look at FF7 remaster.
 
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