Support NeoGAF

[Gaiff]

https://www.eurogamer.net/digitalfoundry-2024-the-big-horizon-forbidden-west-pc-tech-interview

A few interesting bits for those too lazy to read.

• The port took roughly a year, with work beginning...last year
• The PC version is the PS5 version but scales slightly above the PS5 version all the way down to below the PS4 version
• To get ultrawide up to speed, they had animators and designers go through all the cinematics and adjust them accordingly
• Nixxes introduced a memory manager like in Spider-Man on PC that moves data to system RAM if you're about to run out of VRAM
• Among options that scale above PS5 are AF, shadow filtering, and shadow resolution
• Deferred texturing which was used on PS4 mainly for the foliage could not translate well to PC so they used a traditional GBuffer approach
• Data decompression is all done on the CPU because GPU decompression introduces a host of problems and limitations such as:
• GPU decompression can only use GDeflate as a decompression format and it's very CPU-unfriendly
• They decided to use LZ4 instead which is very fast on the CPU as GDeflate is useful for CPU-bound game but very heavy on the GPU
• They want to convince Microsoft to allow other formats for GPU decompression
• Ray tracing was considered but its implementation proved to be too time consuming
• To collect PSOs, they had their QA team gather them and at the end of every week, merge them into a big database, similar to Spider-Man
• The guys at Nixxes don't think PSOs are a great solution and prefer the way the Steam Deck handles them, and wonder if that could be done on Windows
• PSO collection is a huge burden on PC compared to consoles and it's a very frustrating process. Guerilla quotes, "it is really bad"

 

[OverHeat]

Ray tracing too time consuming fuck you guys!!!

 

[Gaiff]

Ray tracing too time consuming fuck you guys!!!

Yeah, the whole game is perhaps 100 square km according to Guerilla and they would have needed to go through the whole thing to add ray-traced shadows for instance. One of the key points during development was also the scalability between PS4 and PS5 so RT had to take a walk.

 

[rodrigolfp]

The hell is PSO? Phantasy Star Online?

 

[OverHeat]

Shader optimization

The hell is PSO? Phantasy Star Online?

 

[Gaiff]

The hell is PSO? Phantasy Star Online?

Pipeline state object. Caching them helps speed up the shader compilation process.

 

[Mithos]

Pipeline state object. Caching them helps speed up the shader compilation process.

How about just letting us compile 100% of those shaders while on/in a menu, that way they don't have to do all that work to make sure the game don't stutter while playing the game...

 

[winjer]

How about just letting us compile 100% of those shaders while on/in a menu, that way they don't have to do all that work to make sure the game don't stutter while playing the game...

For that, devs have to gather PSOs.

 

[Mithos]

For that, devs have to gather PSOs.

Don't have to be so fast about it though like they have be in game while playing.
Coz it do not matter if it takes 4 minutes in a menu to compile all the shaders, but ingame, need to be fast so there is no stutter when compiling.

 

[Magic Carpet]

Pipeline state object. Caching them helps speed up the shader compilation process.

I will never understand this issue. I've watched several videos trying to explain it to me and I just don't get it.
They know beforehand whats being used on the PS5. Why can't this be automated with ZERO input from a developer?
I need a serious down and dirty video explaining why this remains a problem.

 

[winjer]

Don't have to be so fast about it though like they have be in game while playing.
Coz it do not matter if it takes 4 minutes in a menu to compile all the shaders, but ingame, need to be fast so there is no stutter when compiling.

I don't think you understand.
PSOs are the basis to compile shaders.

 

[rodrigolfp]

How about just letting us compile 100% of those shaders while on/in a menu, that way they don't have to do all that work to make sure the game don't stutter while playing the game...

But the game does that.

 

[Mithos]

But the game does that.

Not according to that DF video it said many but not everything got compiled in the start.
Edit: or that other part that is not compiled while in menu, is that something else they meant ?

I don't think you understand.
PSOs are the basis to compile shaders.

So even if I only need to compile ALL shaders in a menu where how long the compiling take do not matter, vs ingame where compiling need to be invisible/so fast its unnoticeable, you have to spend huge amount of time optimizing the POS's ?

Seems kinda broken if that's the case.

 

[yamaci17]

"We also added a memory manager, which we introduced in Marvel's Spider-Man. What it does make sure you never run out of VRAM. If you're almost running out, we start moving data back to system RAM, which does come at a performance cost, but we try to move stuff that's not necessary for a specific scene."

yeah instead of implementing a proper texture streamer, destroy the GPU performance instead

 

[winjer]

Not according to that DF video it said many but not everything got compiled in the start.
Edit: or that other part that is not compiled while in menu, is that something else they meant ?


So even if I only need to compile ALL shaders in a menu where how long the compiling take do not matter, vs ingame where compiling need to be invisible/so fast its unnoticeable, you have to spend huge amount of time optimizing the POS's ?

Seems kinda broken if that's the case.

The amount of time to compile shaders depends on the compiler, and the amount of shaders and permutations that the shaders have.

 

[Denton]

Amazing console and PC version, Nixxes and Guerilla are definitely among the most accomplished teams in the entire industry.

Great interview from DF, particularly interesting was the part about PSOs. Sounds like MS should get together with nVidia, AMD, Intel and Valve and figure something out.

 

[Panajev2001a]

• Data decompression is all done on the CPU because GPU decompression introduces a host of problems and limitations such as:
• GPU decompression can only use GDeflate as a decompression format and it's very CPU-unfriendly
• They decided to use LZ4 instead which is very fast on the CPU as GDeflate is useful for CPU-bound game but very heavy on the GPU
• They want to convince Microsoft to allow other formats for GPU decompression

Uhm… ok… so DirectStorage adoption woes kind of explained here… maybe.

 

[MisterXDTV]

Uhm… ok… so DirectStorage adoption woes kind of explained here… maybe.

 

[DoctorEkkoUK]

The PC version is the PS5 version but scales slightly above or even below the PS4 version

Sorry, what?
I really hope I am reading that wrong

 

[Gaiff]

Sorry, what?
I really hope I am reading that wrong

It scales slightly above the PS5 version all the way to below the PS4 version.

 

[shamoomoo]

Sorry, what?
I really hope I am reading that wrong

What's confusing? The game was already made and it's not like Nixxes is going to remake the game for PC.

 

[Gaiff]

What's confusing? The game was already made and it's not like Nixxes is going to remake the game for PC.

I think he read it as it scales slightly above to below the PS4 version. I edited for clarity.

 

[a multicultural team of v]

Uhm… ok… so DirectStorage adoption woes kind of explained here… maybe.

• GPU decompression can only use GDeflate as a decompression format and it's very CPU-unfriendly

Is one of the more confusing sentences I've read in a while. Like how the fuck does GPU decompression manage to be more CPU unfriendly than CPU only decompression by itself???????? Who designs this shit?

 

[shamoomoo]

I think he read it as it scales slightly above to below the PS4 version. I edited for clarity.

I guess,but would the same idea apply to the PS5? In the sense the PS5 is faster than the PS4 and Horizon is cross-gen game so no one is expecting a huge difference in underlying tech. Overall presentation is a different matter and PCs aren't fixed platforms so a "potato" mode doesn't strike me as odd.

 

[IDWhite]

They had a lot of trouble porting a game designed for Ps4 hardware. Imagine how difficult it will be when they start making a PS5 game to take advantage of the dedicated hardware for decompression and the coherence engine... The solution its very clear. PC's and directx are the reasons why devs will never gonna push Ps5 unique hardware to its limits. Not even first party studios that now are multi platform.

 

[Gaiff]

They had a lot of trouble porting a game designed for Ps4 hardware. Imagine how difficult it will be when they start making a PS5 game to take advantage of the dedicated hardware for decompression and the coherence engine... The solution its very clear. PC's and directx are the reasons why devs will never gonna push Ps5 unique hardware to its limits. Not even first party studios that now are multi platform.

You mean like Spider-Man 2?

 

[jroc74]

Uhm… ok… so DirectStorage adoption woes kind of explained here… maybe.

First thing I thought of.

Remembering all the pre launch debates, drama is interesting to say the least.

 

[MonkeyClaw36]

No RT = Hard pass.

 

[IDWhite]

• GPU decompression can only use GDeflate as a decompression format and it's very CPU-unfriendly

Is one of the more confusing sentences I've read in a while. Like how the fuck does GPU decompression manage to be more CPU unfriendly than CPU only decompression by itself???????? Who designs this shit?

To send the data to the GPU memory for decompresion you need the data to be managed on the API level by a CPU. Thats how PC arquitecture is made. On Ps5 you have dedicated hardware to manage all these things, son no CPU time is needed.

 

[IDWhite]

You mean like Spider-Man 2?

On the SSD and I/O capabilities side? Yes

 

[a multicultural team of v]

To send the data to the GPU memory for decompresion you need the data to be managed on the API level by a CPU. Thats how PC arquitecture is made. On Ps5 you have dedicated hardware to manage all these things, son no CPU time is needed.

I get that, but the fact that the data management is more intensive to the CPU than the CPU just decompressing it is wild. Either the CPU algo is incredibly efficient or data management is incredibly inefficient. Or a little of both lol

 

[Gaiff]

I get that, but the fact that the data management is more intensive to the CPU than the CPU just decompressing it is wild. Either the CPU algo is incredibly efficient or data management is incredibly inefficient. Or a little of both lol

They didn't say it was more CPU-intensive, they said it's unfriendly. Not sure exactly what they mean but it could be because it introduces scheduling conflicts or other bugs that they can't get rid of so they opted to use CPU decompression.

 

[Mister Wolf]

They didn't say it was more CPU-intensive, they said it's unfriendly. Not sure exactly what they mean but it could be because it introduces scheduling conflicts or other bugs that they can't get rid of so they opted to use CPU decompression.

And even with the CPU decompression variant of Direct Storage isn't it still matching the PS5?

 

[ChiefDada]

Seems like DirectStorage isn't the easy solution some expected it to be.

Ray tracing too time consuming fuck you guys!!!

Hey! Welcome back!

Hopefully RT gets in with the arrival of the Pro. Horizon's lighting is a key detractor to its otherwise stunning visuals. Second only to asset streaming.

 

[Gaiff]

Seems like DirectStorage isn't the easy solution some expected it to be.

It's not, but thankfully for PC gamers, the data streaming hasn't gotten that intensive yet. It comes nowhere near to stressing the bandwidth limits of the PS5's I/O' subsystem and honestly probably never will. I think Spider-Man was something like 200MB/s and Rift Apart was around 350? Can't remember the numbers for the latter. Decent CPUs and SSDs have no problem reaching those throughputs.

The real interesting test will be Spider-Man 2. If it pushes 800MB/s or 1GB/s, which isn't impossible, then that could seriously cripple the CPU and DirectStorage's GPU decompression will need to work one way or another. Aside from monstrous CPUs clocked to the moon, no CPU will be able to push out that much data efficiently without seriously impacting the performance.

As for RT with the Pro, maaaybe? Not sure. They don't have 1st-party titles for the Pro, so why not let the rookies add RT shadows or even some of their main guys do it to get some practice? No game on Decima has RT yet. Death Stranding 2 will likely be the first. Still, not holding my breath even for RT on the Pro.

 

[SlimySnake]

I dont care for the excuse that RT would be too much work. Virtually every fucking studio from AAA ones to C tier ones and even indies have been able to add RT to their games. If RT shadows are too much work then add RTGI. If they are too much work add RT reflections. You are charging $60 for this game, its not a budget release.

At one point alex asked them the biggest addition they made to the PC port, and they literally answered with 16xAF. What a joke. Literal joke. The game on consoles has fog everywhere. Clean up the fog. A fucking modder did it with HZD and was charging $15 for it. Game looked marvelous with incredible draw distance. This one would look even better without the fog.

Nixxes is taking on too many projects at once. They worked on Ratchet, HFW and Ghost during the same time frame so no, i dont want to hear too much work. You gave yourselves too much work by taking on three projects at once. Take your time like you did with Shadow of the Tomb Raider and added RT shadows when it was literally in beta. 6 years later, you cant ship a game with RT shadows on GPUs virtually 4x more powerful?

There is zero reason for me to double dip aside from DLSS quality at 4k. I remember they had some amazing physics and destruction (intel sponsored but available on all GPUs) in Avengers. They used to go above and beyond. now they have turned into a competent but basic porting studio.

 

[Denton]

I dont care for the excuse that RT would be too much work. Virtually every fucking studio from AAA ones to C tier ones and even indies have been able to add RT to their games. If RT shadows are too much work then add RTGI. If they are too much work add RT reflections.

Isn't the GI they use basically RT, but prebaked? Sure it is not realtime, but they still managed to do it together with dynamic ToD and it looks great. I am not particularly fussed that they did not bother relighting entire game and all cinematics when they already have it look the way it does, even if it is not 100% perfect.

 

[IDWhite]

I get that, but the fact that the data management is more intensive to the CPU than the CPU just decompressing it is wild. Either the CPU algo is incredibly efficient or data management is incredibly inefficient. Or a little of both lol

It's not as intense as CPU decompression, but it still uses a lot of CPU time which is not ideal in CPU bound scenarios.

 

[Clear]

I dont care for the excuse that RT would be too much work. Virtually every fucking studio from AAA ones to C tier ones and even indies have been able to add RT to their games. If RT shadows are too much work then add RTGI. If they are too much work add RT reflections. You are charging $60 for this game, its not a budget release.

At one point alex asked them the biggest addition they made to the PC port, and they literally answered with 16xAF. What a joke. Literal joke. The game on consoles has fog everywhere. Clean up the fog. A fucking modder did it with HZD and was charging $15 for it. Game looked marvelous with incredible draw distance. This one would look even better without the fog.

Nixxes is taking on too many projects at once. They worked on Ratchet, HFW and Ghost during the same time frame so no, i dont want to hear too much work. You gave yourselves too much work by taking on three projects at once. Take your time like you did with Shadow of the Tomb Raider and added RT shadows when it was literally in beta. 6 years later, you cant ship a game with RT shadows on GPUs virtually 4x more powerful?

There is zero reason for me to double dip aside from DLSS quality at 4k. I remember they had some amazing physics and destruction (intel sponsored but available on all GPUs) in Avengers. They used to go above and beyond. now they have turned into a competent but basic porting studio.

Like you know better

 

[Gaiff]

And even with the CPU decompression variant of Direct Storage isn't it still matching the PS5?

It's loading like 1 second faster than the PS5 version with a 7800X3D. I'd assume a Ryzen 5 3600 would be slower.

 

[LiquidMetal14]

It's a great port.

 

[Gaiff]

It's a great port.

Wouldn't go that far. It's a competent port.

 

[LiquidMetal14]

Wouldn't go that far. It's a competent port.

Great meaning not perfect. Can't ask for more on a rig like mine.

 

[JaksGhost]

I dont care for the excuse that RT would be too much work. Virtually every fucking studio from AAA ones to C tier ones and even indies have been able to add RT to their games. If RT shadows are too much work then add RTGI. If they are too much work add RT reflections. You are charging $60 for this game, its not a budget release.

At one point alex asked them the biggest addition they made to the PC port, and they literally answered with 16xAF. What a joke. Literal joke. The game on consoles has fog everywhere. Clean up the fog. A fucking modder did it with HZD and was charging $15 for it. Game looked marvelous with incredible draw distance. This one would look even better without the fog.

Nixxes is taking on too many projects at once. They worked on Ratchet, HFW and Ghost during the same time frame so no, i dont want to hear too much work. You gave yourselves too much work by taking on three projects at once. Take your time like you did with Shadow of the Tomb Raider and added RT shadows when it was literally in beta. 6 years later, you cant ship a game with RT shadows on GPUs virtually 4x more powerful?

There is zero reason for me to double dip aside from DLSS quality at 4k. I remember they had some amazing physics and destruction (intel sponsored but available on all GPUs) in Avengers. They used to go above and beyond. now they have turned into a competent but basic porting studio.

Buzzword, buzzword, buzzword, buzzword, buzzword, give me buzzwords!

 

[BennyBlanco]

Why do these guys hate phantasy star online so much?

 

[Kataploom]

They had a lot of trouble porting a game designed for Ps4 hardware. Imagine how difficult it will be when they start making a PS5 game to take advantage of the dedicated hardware for decompression and the coherence engine... The solution its very clear. PC's and directx are the reasons why devs will never gonna push Ps5 unique hardware to its limits. Not even first party studios that now are multi platform.

WTF? PS5 is already on its knees, don't you see games having to rely on sub-1080p upscaled to 1440p to barely give 30 fps? Don't overestimate that machine, also PCs already have SSDs that are twice as fast as PS5's.

It scales slightly above the PS5 version all the way to below the PS4 version.

This is what I don't get, what does it mean that it "scales" above or below?

 

[Gaiff]

This is what I don't get, what does it mean that it "scales" above or below?

You can make it a bit prettier than the PS5 version or even uglier than the PS4 version by tweaking the settings.

 

[MisterXDTV]

wrong thread

 

[ChiefDada]

WTF? PS5 is already on its knees, don't you see games having to rely on sub-1080p upscaled to 1440p to barely give 30 fps? Don't overestimate that machine, also PCs already have SSDs that are twice as fast as PS5's.

You are conflating two very different issues affecting performance.

 

[CamHostage]

https://www.eurogamer.net/digitalfoundry-2024-the-big-horizon-forbidden-west-pc-tech-interview

• The guys at Nixxes don't think PSOs are a great solution and prefer the way the Steam Deck handles them, and wonder if that could be done on Windows
• PSO collection is a huge burden on PC compared to consoles and it's a very frustrating process. Guerilla quotes, "it is really bad"

Interesting, I didn't know that Valve had worked on custom solutions for shader precaching for Steam Deck. It makes sense for them to be able to target a singular hardware piece, but then it's funny that Guerrilla proposed MS look to Valve for help in the situation.

Valve does what FromSoftware don’t, thanks to Steam Deck’s precaching update

Cool feature on Steam's desktop client gets new life on static Deck hardware.

arstechnica.com

So even if I only need to compile ALL shaders in a menu where how long the compiling take do not matter, vs ingame where compiling need to be invisible/so fast its unnoticeable, you have to spend huge amount of time optimizing the POS's ?

Seems kinda broken if that's the case.

The interview goes into a lot more detail about the situation and the challenges, but bottom like is that yeah, it's a kinda broken system for all games running on Windows machines. Nixxes: "I think PSOs are not a great solution. It's the best we have, but I think something else can be done here. " and Guerrilla: "(It) would need a lot of collaboration between Microsoft, hardware manufaacturers and software developers to come to an understanding of how this should work. I've jokingly said like 'why do we have GPUs that are so fast and yet we can't compile a shader on it?' " Developers are working around the problems and drilling QA to collect every known need (which has to be gone over again every time a shader is changed) and collaborating with manufacturers to solve this as much as possible before launch, but the situation is more than kinda broken. Guerrilla: "We know that it doesn't have to be as bad as it currently is. And it is really bad."