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Horizon Forbidden West game director says cross-gen development was "not limiting in any way", so many great ideas ended up being included

STARSBarry

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I was worried originally about this but have sort of come around with recent developments.

I was worried that creating a game on older hardware would limit its size and scope on the next gen version. However it has become clearly apparent that this has neither limited the size nor the scope of Aloys face, damn she's been packing on those pounds for the sequel.
 

RoadHazard

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He would say that. But it's obvious that they could have done things that are absolutely impossible on PS4 had they designed this game around the SSD like R&C. They could have had flying. Maybe they don't want that though, in which case I guess they aren't as ambitious as I thought.

Either way, this game started development on PS4 with all those limitations in mind, so OF COURSE there are things they aren't doing that they could have if they didn't have to make sure that the game runs on a super slow HDD and a weak CPU.

Otherwise, what are they saying, that the SSD doesn't really matter? That sure is different from Sony's/Cerny's/Insomniac's view on the matter.
 
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hemo memo

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How would I know when I haven't played the game yet. Simple fact is cross gen does affect game development because your limited to shit hardware. Just look at the Cerny talk about how slow HDD affected how you would develop a game World. Shit just look at FF7 remaster.
Not true. FF7 team just LOVE characters squeezing through tight gaps.
 

Tomeru

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Here's something I've noted...

...forum goers seem to naturally, organically, shuffle away from the reality of their position over time and come to have totally unrealistic interpretations of reality.

i mean, scores of people have posted here saying this guy's full of it, that it is all sneaky stuff they're saying to cover up for being dishonest, amateur fools about these two intersecting console generations.

These posters seem so sure that they a) know exactly what the truth is and b) know more than career game developers and their bosses, working at hugely successful game companies and producing content that oftentimes redefines professional standards in their discipline.

Do you guys seriously think the three stooges are in charge of all these companies? Then why don't you fucking apply for their jobs and get hired to get the whole industry back on track? We could really use your help guys, exclusive games have really been going down the shitter the last 5 years or so.... haven't they? ... wait a second...

Maybe this guy is actually, generously, telling you how it really is? Maybe your shallow interpretations of what causes cross-gen games, and what the consequences of them are, is fallible? Maybe people with more creativity than you, with great organization systems designed to foster and bring out that creativity, have done something special? Maybe if you spend a week in their offices in the Netherlands you'll come out humble as hell and telling everyone they're actually hugely impressive and hard working?

Just some thoughts. U gotta scale back your sense of wisdom on this stuff guys, unless u work for rockstar or something and have a right to wade into this stuff... Forbidden West looks fantastic, in the high-90s percentile for best looking games ever created. Be not so quick to shrug off their professionalism and integrity.
Here is the problem with logic: you need to explain it, or people wont understand. Very few, if any, are going to read your post (very good post btw), instead resorting to the easier route of getting angry at things they think they understand. Story of the human race.
 
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Tschumi

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Here is the problem with logic: you need to explain it, or people wont understand. Very few, if any, are going to read your post (very good post btw), instead resorting to the easier route of getting angry at things they think they understand. Story of the human race.
Cheers mate <3
 

Topher

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Another thing that got cut because it wouldve cost graphics to take a major hit was coop. the game was initially conceived as a two player coop game but they couldnt get the graphics to look good with two players so they gutted it altogether.

Wait.....when was coop ever said to be part of the initial conception?
 

VFXVeteran

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I have to ask: would you ever expect the Microsoft, Sony, or any other game company, to come out during the marketing push for a pre-release game and say "The game was definitely limited by being a cross-gen title. More than a few good ideas had to be shelved because of the PS4/Xbone. The scope of the world, the traversal methods, the complexity of the world simulation - we had grand designs, but had to abandon a lot of it because the base PS4/Xbone hardware simply couldn't handle it. Anyway, buy our game - comes out soon!" I would have to answer "Never in a million years".
If what you believe is true and you think GG wouldn't out themselves, then the better approach is to say nothing about it. Let the people assume all they want. And yet, that's not what they did.

My interpretation is this: either their ambitions for H:FW were pretty limited - not exceeding their original vision from 2017, and with no attempt to utilise next-generation hardware technology for gameplay purposes
This is exactly what I know. All of their development around HZD was catered to the base game from the beginning. They aren't doing anything different than any other studio that has a popular franchise and have planned from the beginning what the future scope of sequels would look like.

If people were completely agnostic about their platform of choice, it really makes sense. There is nothing in HFW that screams it can't be done on a PS4. I watched threads about HFW when it first was shown and people were going crazy over the game regardless of whether it was on PS4. GG even mentioned how long it took to develop their water system. They obviously started it way before PS5 specs were even announced. That is what I consider an algorithm based on a series of tech papers with a general solution completely agnostic of what hardware would run that algorithm.
 
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Three

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Interestingly 'static' was the word I would personally describe the recent Forbidden West gameplay reveal.

Pretty, but static.
Trees were getting destroyed, sand was getting deformed, grass and trees were blowing in the air. Fish, seaweed and aloys hair was moving in the currents. Waves were crashing at the beach.
It's a game about desolation but it was far from static.
 

TGO

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Peach fuzz not possible on PS4 confirmed!!
Thank god Aloy don't do any dermaplaning.
If she did she have a beard and moustache to be realistic because of the lack of being able to dermaplan each week.
 
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VFXVeteran

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Yes devs do. I've heard them talk about game design plenty of times. Who do you think you're fooling. VFXVeteran VFXVeteran its clear to all of us that you know you stuff, so why are you doing this man? You act as if we "gamers" haven't spent an hour or more every year listening to devs talk about game development at GDC or other events.

- If one console has 5 usable GBs of RAM and the other console has 13 GBs of RAM............that matters.
- If one console has a 5400 RPM mechanical Hard Drive and the other console has a super fast SSD...........that matters.
- If one console has sucky sucky 2012 made for mobile Jaguar cores CPU running at 850 MHz and the other console has a modern desktop CPU running at 3.5 GHz..............that matters.
- If one console has a 1.8 TF GCN architecture GPU and the other console has a 10 TF RDNA2 GPU.........that matters.
- If one console DOESN'T have ANY built-in hardware to help with I/O bottlenecks and the other console has plenty of hardware to basically eliminate I\O bottlenecks.......that matters.
All of those things matter, but that doesn't need to change the design of the game. We all know Battlefield is a FPS shooter. Period. So of all those things you mentioned, it is clear we can downscale algorithms made for high-end to make it work with low-end hardware.

Here's your rationale.

"I'm going to make a game based on all of this low-end hardware so that say for instance, a KD-tree builds based on low-RAM from querying the hardware. I'll make that game completely centered around it. New generation console comes out. Now I have to change/modify all of my algorithms." This is a shit ton of work. Why not have a KD-tree build based on a variable that queries how much available RAM the hardware has and then compute my algorithm at a speed and storage much greater than the low-end spec hardware."

Texture sizes - Why would I convince my artists that we only need 1k texture maps since we are building this game for PS4. Then the PS5 comes out and we have to now recreate all those textures again at 4k. Why would we waste this time when we could have made high res texture maps from the beginning that just won't run on a PS4 spec and then downsample the texture size from 4k to 1k.

If I hardcode a post-process graphics feature like lens flares that computes only 2 iterations for the final product then PS5 comes out and I have to go back and change the iterations for 3-4.

All of these changes become a significant burden when it's much much easier to implement these algorithms that can't utilize the max parameter set until later on or a produced hardware that CAN implement them for whatever sequel to the game.

This is exactly what is done with 3rd party multiplat games. The PC, being an agnostic box, is similar to your scenario of PS4->PS5. There are options in the PC version of 3rd party games that simply won't run on the consoles - yet the setting is there, which means they created a more advanced setting for high-end hardware that low-end hardware simply can't take advantage of.

If you guys start talking about general design, you are hardpressed there too since it's the art director's vision that drives the overall gameplay design. At the end of the day, popular games will get sequels. Period. The initial design has already been made completely agnostic of hardware. GT7, GoW2, HFW, Spiderman MM, etc.. etc.. all have a base design that is completely independent of hardware.
 
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Clear

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No clip documentary

skip to 21 minutes

The relevant part for this conversation actually comes around the 19 min mark at the start of the "Finding Aloy" chapter.

Listen to the stuff about avoiding the "rule of cool". Its a perfect illustration of why I've been banging on about "Just because you can, it doesn't mean you should."
 
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VFXVeteran

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He would say that. But it's obvious that they could have done things that are absolutely impossible on PS4 had they designed this game around the SSD like R&C.

Otherwise, what are they saying, that the SSD doesn't really matter? That sure is different from Sony's/Cerny's/Insomniac's view on the matter.

This is so unnerving I really don't know what to say.

Let's take a look at some gameplay elements of a game:

1) AI - what would the SSD do for this gameplay algorithm?

2) Sound - what would the SSD do for sound enhancement?

3) Control mechanics - how would the SSD enhance controls in a game

4) Multiplayer Element - how can the SSD speed up network data exchange and feedback.

5) Story - can the SSD somehow enhance the story?

6) Physics - how can the SSD speed up physics calculations?

7) Graphics - yup. SSD can help there.

8) Speed of streaming - yup. SSD can definitely help there.

9) VR - can the SSD help speed up VR or perhaps increase the pixel resolution rendering?
 

Kimahri

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I am sure he can grasp that developing for a PS4 pro with max 4 TF and a Ps5 with 10. tf makes a difference.. let alone the different hard drives ..

Better was not mentioning what he said at all.
Well, considering he's working on one of the most impressive looking visuals I've ever seen in a game, I'm sure he does.

I don't know about your credentials. You might be John Carmack for all I know, but until you show me otherwise, I'll take this devs word over yours any day of the week.
 
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SlimySnake

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I'm glad that at least in this thread almost nobody is buying the bullshit. Small steps.
I think it's because Sony themselves have gone on record time and time again how the HDD especially held them back. Cerny's entire road to ps5 conference was about it. SSM, Insomniac and GG have talked about it. I remember Insomniac devs literally stating that they couldnt even code around the 50 MBps limit of standard PS4 HDDs because some idiots could have replaced it with slower 20 MBps HDDs. That limited the speed of Spiderman's swinging on every platform from base PS4s with slower HDDs to the ones with faster HDDs and of course the PS4 Pro.

So they screwed themselves.
 

SlimySnake

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Anyway, BF6 is about to be revealed. Now that's another cross gen game, but they have gone on record telling investors that the reason why they didnt release a BF game last year was because they wanted an extra year and next gen tech to truly realize their next gen vision for this franchise.

They released this prototype last year. Clearly they are aiming for a true next gen experience.



More recently, they have announced last gen versions of the game. So it will be interesting to see how a game like this that was designed for next gen consoles gets paired back. For BF4, they developed on PC and like BF3, they had 64 players on PC, but this time they were able to match the PC version's player count and destruction physics on consoles. PS360 had to settle for 24 player lobbies.

I wonder if he see the same thing here.
 

RoadHazard

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This is so unnerving I really don't know what to say.

Let's take a look at some gameplay elements of a game:

1) AI - what would the SSD do for this gameplay algorithm?

2) Sound - what would the SSD do for sound enhancement?

3) Control mechanics - how would the SSD enhance controls in a game

4) Multiplayer Element - how can the SSD speed up network data exchange and feedback.

5) Story - can the SSD somehow enhance the story?

6) Physics - how can the SSD speed up physics calculations?

7) Graphics - yup. SSD can help there.

8) Speed of streaming - yup. SSD can definitely help there.

9) VR - can the SSD help speed up VR or perhaps increase the pixel resolution rendering?
I'm mainly thinking about world traversal (which is a big part of a game like this), and thus loading/streaming. Sure, if you're just gonna be running or riding very slow mounts it maybe doesn't matter that much, but what is the reason for that? Is it because they don't WANT fast traversal in the game, or is it because the PS4 couldn't handle it?

I've never said the SSD would help with AI or physics. But the CPU sure could, and that's another aspect where the game has been designed around the weak Jaguar, so that's also bound to hold the game back from what it might have been.
 
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mckmas8808

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Here's something I've noted...

...forum goers seem to naturally, organically, shuffle away from the reality of their position over time and come to have totally unrealistic interpretations of reality.

i mean, scores of people have posted here saying this guy's full of it, that it is all sneaky stuff they're saying to cover up for being dishonest, amateur fools about these two intersecting console generations.

These posters seem so sure that they a) know exactly what the truth is and b) know more than career game developers and their bosses, working at hugely successful game companies and producing content that oftentimes redefines professional standards in their discipline.

Do you guys seriously think the three stooges are in charge of all these companies? Then why don't you fucking apply for their jobs and get hired to get the whole industry back on track? We could really use your help guys, exclusive games have really been going down the shitter the last 5 years or so.... haven't they? ... wait a second...

Maybe this guy is actually, generously, telling you how it really is? Maybe your shallow interpretations of what causes cross-gen games, and what the consequences of them are, is fallible? Maybe people with more creativity than you, with great organization systems designed to foster and bring out that creativity, have done something special? Maybe if you spend a week in their offices in the Netherlands you'll come out humble as hell and telling everyone they're actually hugely impressive and hard working?

Just some thoughts. U gotta scale back your sense of wisdom on this stuff guys, unless u work for rockstar or something and have a right to wade into this stuff... Forbidden West looks fantastic, in the high-90s percentile for best looking games ever created. Be not so quick to shrug off their professionalism and integrity.

The problem you have is you're writing that post of yours as if this dev is the only dev to speak on game development in an open way. We here at GAF and other forums and social media sites have listen to devs talk about game creation for years. Some of us decades, so we have some fundamental understanding of the process. So NO, GG hasn't done anything in this game that'll make me think if HFW was a PS5 only game; it'll be the exact same game. Just look at their Killzone franchise. The difference between Killzone 2 and 3 versus ShadowFall is clear as day. Going beyond the better graphics in SF, they clearly designed that game differently that 2 and 3. Why? Because they had a console with more to work with.

Your last point has no bearing in fact. I agree with the rest but even then I don’t see a scenario that would be game changing.

I guess it depends on your definition of game changing then. People reviewing the new Ratchet and Clank game seem to like what having a fast SSD has brought to that game versus all the other games that have been out. It literally changed the design of the game that Insomniac made. Like in the MOST obvious gameplay ways.

On the one hand if you're saying PS4 isn't holding you back, doesn't that imply PS5 isn't adding all that much either?

On the other hand VFXVeteran seems to know what he's talking about. I'm ignorant about this I'll admit.

I think the smartest post in this whole train wreck of a thread was on page 1 when SlimySnake SlimySnake speculated it simply started off as a PS4 game and that's why PS4 hasn't held it back. I mean it makes sense. It's probably 2 years into development? No way it was planned as PS5-only that early on. I think Slimy hit the nail on the freaking head, mic drop.

The bolded is the most obvious point, which is why many of us are upset at this dev. He's been slick with his words. YES, Horizon 2 wasn't held back on the PS5 because it was always designed to run on a base PS4. That makes perfect sense. But that's not what people are wondering. They are wonder what if they never started on the PS4 and started on the PS5 like Insomniac did with Rift Apart.

Here is the problem with logic: you need to explain it, or people wont understand. Very few, if any, are going to read your post (very good post btw), instead resorting to the easier route of getting angry at things they think they understand. Story of the human race.

I read his whole post and disagreed with most of it. I even post my reply to it above. Many of us understand game development because we listened to and watched other devs talk about game development. Stop treating this one dev that's marketing a game, as the end all be all.

All of those things matter, but that doesn't need to change the design of the game. We all know Battlefield is a FPS shooter. Period. So of all those things you mentioned, it is clear we can downscale algorithms made for high-end to make it work with low-end hardware.

Here's your rationale.

"I'm going to make a game based on all of this low-end hardware so that say for instance, a KD-tree builds based on low-RAM from querying the hardware. I'll make that game completely centered around it. New generation console comes out. Now I have to change/modify all of my algorithms." This is a shit ton of work. Why not have a KD-tree build based on a variable that queries how much available RAM the hardware has and then compute my algorithm at a speed and storage much greater than the low-end spec hardware."

Texture sizes - Why would I convince my artists that we only need 1k texture maps since we are building this game for PS4. Then the PS5 comes out and we have to now recreate all those textures again at 4k. Why would we waste this time when we could have made high res texture maps from the beginning that just won't run on a PS4 spec and then downsample the texture size from 4k to 1k.

If I hardcode a post-process graphics feature like lens flares that computes only 2 iterations for the final product then PS5 comes out and I have to go back and change the iterations for 3-4.

All of these changes become a significant burden when it's much much easier to implement these algorithms that can't utilize the max parameter set until later on or a produced hardware that CAN implement them for whatever sequel to the game.

This is exactly what is done with 3rd party multiplat games. The PC, being an agnostic box, is similar to your scenario of PS4->PS5. There are options in the PC version of 3rd party games that simply won't run on the consoles - yet the setting is there, which means they created a more advanced setting for high-end hardware that low-end hardware simply can't take advantage of.

If you guys start talking about general design, you are hardpressed there too since it's the art director's vision that drives the overall gameplay design. At the end of the day, popular games will get sequels. Period. The initial design has already been made completely agnostic of hardware. GT7, GoW2, HFW, Spiderman MM, etc.. etc.. all have a base design that is completely independent of hardware.

The bolded is where most of us are debating and where most of us disagree with you. It's just 100% NOT true. The Director's vision for a game will ALWAYS be shaped to some degree around the hardware that he or she is developing a game for. That's just a pure fact. No too ways around that. You CLEARLY see that with lots of Nintendo games on the DS and Switch. Those games were designed around the hardware. Hell, the latest Astrobot game was literally designed around the PS5's Dualsense controller. They even said so. Plus, I've played and beat the game first hand.
 

VFXVeteran

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I'm mainly thinking about world traversal (which is a big part of a game like this), and thus loading/streaming.
You are talking about a very few open-world games. That is like 10% compared to all the closed SP/MP games. Why is this emphasis on streaming from the SSD so important to ALL game types? It's not a CPU/GPU.

Sure, if you're just gonna be running or riding very slow mounts it maybe doesn't matter that much, but what is the reason for that? Is it because they don't WANT fast traversal in the game, or is it because the PS4 couldn't handle it?
What is it that you are envisioning with HFW that you think the development team should have done if it was a pure PS5 only game? We have R&C, so are you suggesting that all games should somehow need to use streaming world data in order for it to satisfy you that it's impossible on the PS4? What about corridor shooters like Resident Evil? How about Marvel Avengers? or other closed world systems? If you guys are going to jump in on the development team and declare they aren't using the hardware properly, tell us here how it should be used.

I've never said the SSD would help with AI or physics. But the CPU sure could, and that's another aspect where the game has been designed around the weak Jaguar, so that's also bound to hold the game back from what it might have been.
The lack of CPU power can easily be scaled down to low-end systems. Should a game now use 100% of the CPU power just because we have faster CPUs in consoles? Physics should look like what exactly? TLoU2 showed incredible animation and RDR2 had really good accurate physics with old Jaguar CPUs. Now that we have new CPUs, how would performing Newton's 2nd law of motion be enhanced for example when the PS4 can compute it just as easily as the PS5 could? Can you guys think of things that could be better from PS4 generation that PS5 could do better? What would it be? Did we complain about the AI of all of the games last year?
 
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SLB1904

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Tons of people. Don’t make me find the quotes because I don’t know how to copy the links properly.

edit: did that original UE5 ps5 demo thread get nuked. That had tons of evidence but I can’t find it.
Sure
 

Vognerful

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Anyway, BF6 is about to be revealed. Now that's another cross gen game, but they have gone on record telling investors that the reason why they didnt release a BF game last year was because they wanted an extra year and next gen tech to truly realize their next gen vision for this franchise.

They released this prototype last year. Clearly they are aiming for a true next gen experience.



More recently, they have announced last gen versions of the game. So it will be interesting to see how a game like this that was designed for next gen consoles gets paired back. For BF4, they developed on PC and like BF3, they had 64 players on PC, but this time they were able to match the PC version's player count and destruction physics on consoles. PS360 had to settle for 24 player lobbies.

I wonder if he see the same thing here.
Man this is creepy.
 

Tomeru

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I read his whole post and disagreed with most of it. I even post my reply to it above. Many of us understand game development because we listened to and watched other devs talk about game development. Stop treating this one dev that's marketing a game, as the end all be all.
That is proof of exactly nothing.
 
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Tschumi

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The problem you have is you're writing that post of yours as if this dev is the only dev to speak on game development in an open way. We here at GAF and other forums and social media sites have listen to devs talk about game creation for years. Some of us decades, so we have some fundamental understanding of the process. So NO, GG hasn't done anything in this game that'll make me think if HFW was a PS5 only game; it'll be the exact same game. Just look at their Killzone franchise. The difference between Killzone 2 and 3 versus ShadowFall is clear as day. Going beyond the better graphics in SF, they clearly designed that game differently that 2 and 3. Why? Because they had a console with more to work with.
To be honest, according to their Making of Horizon Zero Dawn documentary thing, Shadowfall was in fact made in the same engine as Horizon would eventually be made in... actually they say a lot more about just how fundamentally akin the two games are, so yeah that's perhaps part of why Shadowfall was unlike the previous games, it was kind of a tech test for Horizon.. just a brief aside.

I know that we would all like years or decades of doing something to gift some kind of credibility, but i still don't really agree with that kind of innuendo. I've studied and practiced my industry to Master Degree level over the last decade and a half but i don't think I've got shit on the icons of my discipline, and i can't really decide what's going on in their minds. Same applies. Especially with Guerilla, who clearly do things differently to a crytek or whatever. Occam's razor: was Horizon FW an exercise in successful creativity, or a nefarious plot to tinker with fans and win console wars then pull a switcheroo just to give opposition fans some scraps to feed on? Then send out a fallacious rep to say it was a successful creative process?
 
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SafeOrAlone

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In God of War 2 on PS4 they can still have the walking for a few seconds from fast travel door to fast travel door.

On PS5, they can just make you walk through it. Idk why it being cross-gen, would stop you from doing this.

In Horizon this wouldnt make sense. Maybe the Aloy goes to sleep and wakes up in another bonfire, instantly

What next gen only ideas do people want in Horizon2 and GOW2?

I just want more enemies and more graphics from GOW2.
I want air riding, more enemies, and GRAPHICS.
Edit:

Nevermind, I think I misunderstood you.

But to be clear, if you want things like more enemies and air riding, PS4 is going to stand in the way of that reaching it's potential, 100%.
 
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RoadHazard

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You are talking about a very few open-world games. That is like 10% compared to all the closed SP/MP games. Why is this emphasis on streaming from the SSD so important to ALL game types? It's not a CPU/GPU.


What is it that you are envisioning with HFW that you think the development team should have done if it was a pure PS5 only game? We have R&C, so are you suggesting that all games should somehow need to use streaming world data in order for it to satisfy you that it's impossible on the PS4? What about corridor shooters like Resident Evil? How about Marvel Avengers? or other closed world systems? If you guys are going to jump in on the development team and declare they aren't using the hardware properly, tell us here how it should be used.


The lack of CPU power can easily be scaled down to low-end systems. Should a game now use 100% of the CPU power just because we have faster CPUs in consoles? Physics should look like what exactly? TLoU2 showed incredible animation and RDR2 had really good accurate physics with old Jaguar CPUs. Now that we have new CPUs, how would performing Newton's 2nd law of motion be enhanced for example when the PS4 can compute it just as easily as the PS5 could? Can you guys think of things that could be better from PS4 generation that PS5 could do better? What would it be? Did we complain about the AI of all of the games last year?

Open world games make up 10% of games released now? That's weird, people always complain about how "everything is open world". Anyway, yes, the SSD can absolutely help in more linear SP experiences as well. You can load only the data needed RIGHT before it's needed, instead of having to waste a ton of memory on stuff you might need in 1 minute (or might not need at all, so you'll just throw it away), so you can use the memory much more efficiently and have higher detail where it actually matters. Can't do that with an HDD, or you'll at least have to add those long elevator rides and tight corridors to give the thing a chance to transfer the needed data before you reach the next area. And even then you're still gonna be loading tons of data you don't actually need at any given moment.

But that's just one example. One more relevant for HFW is being able to get flying mounts, fly fast above the world, and then dive down wherever with full ground level detail loaded instantly. That's not possible on PS4. There might be other super cool things that can be done when you have super fast data transfer that we haven't even imagined yet. R&C is the first game that truly does something the PS4 couldn't, but that doesn't mean that's the only thing that could be done. You seem to be thinking in terms of what last gen games did (and cross-gen games do), and that's just not very imaginative.

But I understand you're just hurting because your PC can't do what the PS5 can, and even if it could there would be very few games that really took advantage of it since games can't just target the top 1% of PCs.
 
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SafeOrAlone

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Wow. I sincerely hope that people on these boards will now stop talking about this shit. It has gotten to epic levels of ridiculousness and people arguing with me to no end about how "wrong" I am about this. Why does it take the actual engineers from these companies to make people believe? And yet, I can guarantee a dollar to a dime, people will STILL mention next-gen being held back by cross-gen.
I feel bad for you, man. Sony is taking you out to lunch. They're full of it right now.
 

SegaSnatcher

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Do they think gamers are that dumb? Of course being cross gen and having to develop a game that runs on those crappy Jaguar cores will limit the game in some way, it's not a matter of opinion, but a fact.

If this game was developed only for the PS5 then it would be even more impressive than it already is.
 
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ManaByte

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More recently, they have announced last gen versions of the game. So it will be interesting to see how a game like this that was designed for next gen consoles gets paired back. For BF4, they developed on PC and like BF3, they had 64 players on PC, but this time they were able to match the PC version's player count and destruction physics on consoles. PS360 had to settle for 24 player lobbies.

I wonder if he see the same thing here.
DICE has always been good with doing a next-gen version and a gimped previous gen version.
 
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dcmk7

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Wow. I sincerely hope that people on these boards will now stop talking about this shit. It has gotten to epic levels of ridiculousness and people arguing with me to no end about how "wrong" I am about this. Why does it take the actual engineers from these companies to make people believe? And yet, I can guarantee a dollar to a dime, people will STILL mention next-gen being held back by cross-gen.
If Insomniac had to release Ratchet for both consoles, I can imagine it will look a lot different and technically a lot worse too.

Certainly wouldn't look Pixar-like.

In your opinion, if Ratchet had been a cross gen title, would it still look just as impressive as it does now?
 

SegaSnatcher

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I think he's probably half right. I get the sense that some poeple on here think we are going to be getting AVATAR level graphics, and Hal from 2001 level ai, when cross gen gets dropped.
I'll be surprised if game design changes much at all.
Nobody actually thinks that, but there is no debate that dropping support of PS4/Pro hardware would open up more possibilities.
 

mckmas8808

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That is proof of exactly nothing.

What do you mean? I'm not a dev so what do you want me to say to "Prove" it to you. Do you trust the words of Mark Cerny then? He told all that the PS5 and it's new hardware would change gameplay in certain ways too.

To be honest, according to their Making of Horizon Zero Dawn documentary thing, Shadowfall was in fact made in the same engine as Horizon would eventually be made in... actually they say a lot more about just how fundamentally akin the two games are, so yeah that's perhaps part of why Shadowfall was unlike the previous games, it was kind of a tech test for Horizon.. just a brief aside.

I know that we would all like years or decades of doing something to gift some kind of credibility, but i still don't really agree with that kind of innuendo. I've studied and practiced my industry to Master Degree level over the last decade and a half but i don't think I've got shit on the icons of my discipline, and i can't really decide what's going on in their minds. Same applies. Especially with Guerilla, who clearly do things differently to a crytek or whatever. Occam's razor: was Horizon FW an exercise in successful creativity, or a nefarious plot to tinker with fans and win console wars then pull a switcheroo just to give opposition fans some scraps to feed on? Then send out a fallacious rep to say it was a successful creative process?

The bolded are some really good questions.
 
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SegaSnatcher

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Ps5 and xbox series x are scalable. It's all AMD, if they want they can make the games crossgen the whole generation. Obviously the ps4 versions would run at 720p and at some point they need to stop but it's all marketing bs. You'll see with God Of War.
You can only scale so much when you are dealing with a huge delta in CPU performance between the shitty 1.6Ghz Jaguar cores vs the 3.5Ghz Zen 2 cores. A game specifically made with PS5's SSD and CPU in mind would have a hard time working on the PS4, especially if there was an emphasis on physics and destructible environments.

The only positive thing about being cross gen is it makes it much easier to get 60fps performance modes that run with good stability.
 
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Negotiator101

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Trees were getting destroyed, sand was getting deformed, grass and trees were blowing in the air. Fish, seaweed and aloys hair was moving in the currents. Waves were crashing at the beach.
It's a game about desolation but it was far from static.
I think he means wildlife, insects etc
 

Tschumi

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What do you mean? I'm not a dev so what do you want me to say to "Prove" it to you. Do you trust the words of Mark Cerny then? He told all that the PS5 and it's new hardware would change gameplay in certain ways too.



The bolded are some really good questions.
I suggest you apply Occam's razor to them, maybe it's a new concept to you :)

Also, if i understand it right, your implication that Ps5 hardware has been shown to not change gameplay is, it's like your ticket to not being taken seriously anymore
 

Tomeru

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What do you mean? I'm not a dev so what do you want me to say to "Prove" it to you. Do you trust the words of Mark Cerny then? He told all that the PS5 and it's new hardware would change gameplay in certain ways too.



The bolded are some really good questions.
I mean you listen to devs talking about game dev, and now you think you're a game developer.

And that bolded really was an absurd question to ask. You people make Tom Clancy look like a complete amature sometimes...

You (not you you) cant even think outside the box (based on all of the logical conclusions backed by evidence), and you think you know what game development is all about.
 

GhostOfTsu

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Nobody actually thinks that, but there is no debate that dropping support of PS4/Pro hardware would open up more possibilities.
Slimy literally posted a GIF of Avatar in the last page saying "this is what I want" like a child LMAO. Yes, they are completely that delusional.
 
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Three

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I think he means wildlife, insects etc
There is wildlife in Horizon. It's actually part of the gameplay mechanic. You can even see birds and fish in the gameplay demo. Complaining that there are no insects would be kind of strange but there were even those. You can see butterflies.
 

SegaSnatcher

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What gameplay concepts are possible with the PS5 that aren't with a PS4, PS3, or PS2? Once 3D graphics had matured, there wasn't much limiting the gameplay other than imagination. You can restrict the graphics to overcome any technical hurdles involved. The only thing the SSD unlocks is warping as a game mechanic, which we see with R&C. Even that is possible if you cram everything in RAM, but the SSD does allow for more flexible use of the mechanic. I don't see how that would have fit into the world of Horizon though.

The point is that tic-tac-toe will play the same on a 2600, as it will on the highest-end PC rig you can imagine. There's no evidence that HFW would have any elements in it that required an SSD. The increase in visuals is already possible, and something we've seen in the gameplay demo, as well as for decades on the PC.

Destructible Environments was sorely lacking on PS4 games, because of the shit tier CPU and the games that did offer that like "Just Cause 3" ran like absolute crap.
 

VFXVeteran

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The bolded is where most of us are debating and where most of us disagree with you. It's just 100% NOT true. The Director's vision for a game will ALWAYS be shaped to some degree around the hardware that he or she is developing a game for. That's just a pure fact. No too ways around that. You CLEARLY see that with lots of Nintendo games on the DS and Switch. Those games were designed around the hardware. Hell, the latest Astrobot game was literally designed around the PS5's Dualsense controller. They even said so. Plus, I've played and beat the game first hand.
If we aren't talking about graphics here, then what are we talking about? Can you name any game from the PS4 era that was doing something more than the PS3/PS2 era from a gameplay perspective? Consider the Uncharted series as an example.

In a nutshell, it's extremely confusing when you guys complain about HFW being held back but not stating what the PS5 can do over the PS4 *gameplay* wise. HFW doesn't need portals like R&C, so what else?
 

Maxwell Jacob Friedman

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if they dont have flying in this game then we will know it was limited, they wanted that mechanic in HZD, however the PS4 held them back. if its not on PS5, ya'll liars bruh.
 

VFXVeteran

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Open world games make up 10% of games released now? That's weird, people always complain about how "everything is open world". Anyway, yes, the SSD can absolutely help in more linear SP experiences as well. You can load only the data needed RIGHT before it's needed,
Dude, to do what? If you say put more objects on the screen, then you are going to end up being GPU bound. The GPU doesn't just render anything and everything you feed it without rendering costs. And what else would you put on screen that would affect *GAMEPLAY* if we are trying to avoid saying "more graphics"?


instead of having to waste a ton of memory on stuff you might need in 1 minute (or might not need at all, so you'll just throw it away), so you can use the memory much more efficiently and have higher detail where it actually matters.
Again you are talking about GRAPHICS!!!! WTF?? That's not a GAMEPLAY feature that needs to be upgraded to next-gen from previous gen.

But that's just one example. One more relevant for HFW is being able to get flying mounts, fly fast above the world, and then dive down wherever with full ground level detail loaded instantly.
Dude, do you know how many games actually have fast movement? A car going 120mph needs to stream in data too. Flying mounts are in a lot of games. They don't need an SSD. You are grasping for straws at this point. FS2020 doesn't need an SSD and it's never going to be trumped by any open-world game as far as data throughput is concerned. Next?


That's not possible on PS4. There might be other super cool things that can be done when you have super fast data transfer that we haven't even imagined yet. R&C is the first game that truly does something the PS4 couldn't, but that doesn't mean that's the only thing that could be done. You seem to be thinking in terms of what last gen games did (and cross-gen games do), and that's just not very imaginative.
Data transfer -> Unlimited GPU power processing. I'm done with this argument.

But I understand you're just hurting because your PC can't do what the PS5 can, and even if it could there would be very few games that really took advantage of it since games can't just target the top 1% of PCs.
Sure.
 
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Salmon Snake

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I can image that this comment has been said numerous times already but here it is:
What's the point of having Playstation 5 if cross-gen development was "not limiting in any way".

Just having 1440p 60fps is pretty lame, when I was hoping for a next gen open world game. Like being able to fly.
 
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RoadHazard

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Dude, to do what? If you say put more objects on the screen, then you are going to end up being GPU bound. The GPU doesn't just render anything and everything you feed it without rendering costs. And what else would you put on screen that would affect *GAMEPLAY* if we are trying to avoid saying "more graphics"?



Again you are talking about GRAPHICS!!!! WTF?? That's not a GAMEPLAY feature that needs to be upgraded to next-gen from previous gen.


Dude, do you know how many games actually have fast movement? A car going 120mph needs to stream in data too. Flying mounts are in a lot of games. They don't need an SSD. You are grasping for straws at this point. FS2020 doesn't need an SSD and it's never going to be trumped by any open-world game as far as data throughput is concerned. Next?



Data transfer -> Unlimited GPU power processing. I'm done with this argument.


Sure.

Of course you can't just throw whatever you want at the GPU. But do you think a 50MB/s HDD could really saturate what the PS5 GPU can handle? I think not, or else Cerny and Sony in general are fucking stupid for investing in this expensive SSD solution for the PS5. Which you seem to be saying they are, since apparently having a fast SSD gives you no important advantages over a slow HDD.

And no, I've never seen a game with environments as detailed as HFW with seamless unrestricted flight. FS2020 has nowhere near that level of detail at ground level.
 

SlimySnake

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Destructible Environments was sorely lacking on PS4 games, because of the shit tier CPU and the games that did offer that like "Just Cause 3" ran like absolute crap.
There are two games on the PS4 and X1 that really actually bothered pushing physics and large NPC counts. Just Cause 3 and AC Unity. Both are easily the worst performing games on last gen consoles. AC literally changed the entire direction of the franchise moving them to large expansive areas instead of smaller urban cities for the remainder of the gen because of AC Unity. People just dont realize how the weak PS4/X1 CPUs affected game development.

There is a reason why there are so few open world games set in urban environments this gen. Everyone went to the forest setting because the massive 16x leap in VRAM allowed them to render large environments without sacrificing detail compared to linear games. But while the GPUs could allow them to render great looking foliage and trees, it came at a cost. I was shocked at how few NPCs there were in Saint Denis in RDR2. That's supposed to be New Orleans.

I really hope GTA6 isnt held back by last gen.
 
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VFXVeteran

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Of course you can't just throw whatever you want at the GPU.
But you do believe you can by you and most of the Sony warriors who post on these boards.

But do you think a 50MB/s HDD could really saturate what the PS5 GPU can handle?
I can easily saturate the PS5 GPU. Just render at native 4k.

And no, I've never seen a game with environments as detailed as HFW with seamless unrestricted flight. FS2020 has nowhere near that level of detail at ground level.
Of course it doesn't. You are meant to FLY in FS2020, not walk on the ground.
 
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RoadHazard

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But you do believe you can by you and most of the Sony warriors who post on these boards.


I can easily saturate the PS5 GPU. Just render at native 4k.


Of course it doesn't. You are meant to FLY in FS2020, not walk on the ground.

You're saturating one aspect of it that way, leaving other parts severely underutilized.

Yes, so why are you bringing that up? I'm talking about what an SSD could bring to an open world game, not a flight sim.

You should go watch Insomniac's GDC talk on what they had to do to make Spider-Man even function on the PS4 with its slow HDD, and all the data transfer limitations they had to find workarounds for. Then come back to me and tell me that fast flying (or just faster movement in general) in an even more detailed game could work just fine with an HDD. You don't seem to really understand what I'm trying to explain to you, maybe they can.