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Horizon Forbidden West game director says cross-gen development was "not limiting in any way", so many great ideas ended up being included

Shmunter

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I suspect the CPU improvement is mostly going to get eaten up by moving to offering 60fps modes as standard. I mean, its going to be a hard sell to tell people a game is locked to 30 in order to support "better AI" or other things that aren't easily demonstrable.
I’m not sure 30 to 60 scales to 2x cpu usage like it would on the GPU. But I’m not sure, someone may know the ins and outs better.
 

Keihart

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Why can't GG just put more animations, physics and AI routines into the PS5 version, while balancing which of those elements can be implemented into the PS4 version? If you think it would make the game play too differently, then it's mostly an issue of AI and physics. AI in games has hardly been computationally-bound. Games don't have genius-level AI, and it's not because the CPU can't crunch the numbers. So that leaves physics. You can very much have a more complex physics model in the PS5 version versus the PS4 version. That's something PC games have done ever since the introduction of PhysX.

Here's a thought, how does R&C demonstrate animation, physics, and AI beyond what a PS4 can do? That's a PS5-only game, but everything we've seen of it is PS3 R&C with shinier graphics, and world warping. That's plenty next-gen enough for me, and seemingly for everyone else. So why are we pretending that there's more to it than that?

tl;dr: The best showcase of the PS5's ability so far looks like a game that could be played on the PS3, if it had an SSD to handle the world warping. The map loading is what sets R&C apart from what could be done gameplay wise on a PS3. Other than that, it's exactly what we should expect from both cross-gen and next-gen games, a bump in resolution and detail. Demon Souls is PS5-only, and that is just the PS3 game with shinier graphics. GT8 will probably be PS5-only, and that will be GT4 with shinier graphics. The next Uncharted will be UC2 with shinier graphics. Should I continue? There's absolutely nothing wrong with next-gen being a new coat of paint. That's exactly what next-gen has been for decades now.
Well that's pretty evident by the density and diversity of assets in the new Ratchet, but i think you are dodging the issue here, nobody develops a game for the higher denominator and then sinks money and time retooling it for lower specs effectively making a new game anymore, they used to do this and more often than not it would result in completely new games basically. There is a reason that even PC games have minimum and recommended specs, you can run it on even weaker machines but you start missing performance targets and taking out graphical features that make the game recognizable.

Better graphics its not simply increasing image quality and load times, or frame rate, it can mean a lot of other things and sometimes those are even part of gameplay. If this wasnt the case, the high production PC games would look a lot different than they do today.
 
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VFXVeteran

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Well that's pretty evident by the density and diversity of assets in the new Ratchet, but i think you are dodging the issue here, nobody develops a game for the higher denominator and then sinks money and time retooling it for lower specs effectively making a new game anymore, they used to do this and more often than not it would result in completely new games basically. There is a reason that even PC games have minimum and recommended specs, you can run it on even weaker machines but you start missing performance targets and taking out graphical features that make the game recognizable.

Better graphics its not simply increasing image quality and load times, or frame rate, it can mean a lot of other things and sometimes those are even part of gameplay. If this wasnt the case, the high production PC games would look a lot different than they do today.
They do. Do you work for a gaming company at all?
 

Clear

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I’m not sure 30 to 60 scales to 2x cpu usage like it would on the GPU. But I’m not sure, someone may know the ins and outs better.

Pure computational tasks like AI or Physics scale linearly, because you are literally running the same code on the same data at double the frequency.
 
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Rubim

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The thing is I don't think you or anyone else could even tell it was developed on the PS4. Nothing about the game looks like a typical PS4 game. Besides there is no way they'd market it as a PS4 game with better graphics, especially when the goal is to sell more PS5s.
We kinda could. There's nothing in that game that seems to take advantage of the new CPU/GPU aside from SSD.

Now in comparison you can take Ratchet and Clank, we know about the portals, we know about the true cutoff transitions and so on.
 

Clear

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They do. Do you work for a gaming company at all?

To be fair, the general approach is to go with whatever makes most sense from a production and economic standpoint. Art assets are going to need LoD-ing so starting high and going down is a no-brainer. But obviously with stuff like scene geometry that must fit in the memory-maps of every title its a bit more complicated as it depends on your exporters, your engine etc. As to how tied your hands are.

From a code standpoint its similar, its all about engine and toolchain. You want to focus on your designated lead SKU but a lot of work might need to be done on PC regardless for its convenience and utility. But in such scenarios even if PC is the "dog" and the console target "the tail", you will end up with the tail wagging the dog because in the end both need to be fully functional.
 

VFXVeteran

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To be fair, the general approach is to go with whatever makes most sense from a production and economic standpoint. Art assets are going to need LoD-ing so starting high and going down is a no-brainer. But obviously with stuff like scene geometry that must fit in the memory-maps of every title its a bit more complicated as it depends on your exporters, your engine etc. As to how tied your hands are.

From a code standpoint its similar, its all about engine and toolchain. You want to focus on your designated lead SKU but a lot of work might need to be done on PC regardless for its convenience and utility. But in such scenarios even if PC is the "dog" and the console target "the tail", you will end up with the tail wagging the dog because in the end both need to be fully functional.
Yup. You won't see me consistently saying "games are designed around low-end consoles" which is the reason why we don't have CG-looking games today. There are so many moving parts to a game engine and the development process only an ignorant person that doesn't know anything about game development would simplify the process in one sentence like that. These guys talk about it like they are experts at game development with years of experience - yet most of them have no clue about anything game development-wise.
 
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DarkMage619

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We kinda could. There's nothing in that game that seems to take advantage of the new CPU/GPU aside from SSD.

Now in comparison you can take Ratchet and Clank, we know about the portals, we know about the true cutoff transitions and so on.
Really? I think this game will be a classic example of scaling in action. The sand deformation, the destruction of the wooden saddle on the robotic elephant, the underwater parts all looked fantastic and I'd wager were taking advantage of the PS5 CPIU/GPU. And this is with the game being 'held back' by the PS4. People are making a mountain out of molehill. The held back stuff is silly it's even worse when they try and shove the XSS into the conversation too.
 

Clear

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Yup. You won't see me consistently saying "games are designed around low-end consoles" which is the reason why we don't have CG-looking games today. There are so many moving parts to a game engine and the development process only an ignorant person that doesn't know anything about game development would simplify the process in one sentence like that. These guys talk about it like they are experts at game development with years of experience - yet most of them have no clue about anything game development-wise.

I think the thing that a lot of gamers don't quite grasp is how abstracted everything is. The graphics are props so they are easy to chop and change, but the mechanics that move them around need to work regardless of the size of the "stage" i.e. the target hardware. The upside with all this work being done "behind the scenes" you have a lot of flexibility to use different methods to create the same effect for the audience.

Its why I'm always banging on about illusion! Because to a large extent its essentially a tech enhanced puppet show.
 

VFXVeteran

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I think the thing that a lot of gamers don't quite grasp is how abstracted everything is. The graphics are props so they are easy to chop and change, but the mechanics that move them around need to work regardless of the size of the "stage" i.e. the target hardware. The upside with all this work being done "behind the scenes" you have a lot of flexibility to use different methods to create the same effect for the audience.

Its why I'm always banging on about illusion! Because to a large extent its essentially a tech enhanced puppet show.
Yea, I agree man.
 

Rubim

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Really? I think this game will be a classic example of scaling in action. The sand deformation, the destruction of the wooden saddle on the robotic elephant, the underwater parts all looked fantastic and I'd wager were taking advantage of the PS5 CPIU/GPU. And this is with the game being 'held back' by the PS4. People are making a mountain out of molehill. The held back stuff is silly it's even worse when they try and shove the XSS into the conversation too.
That's graphics.

I'm talking about what you could achieve gameplay wise. I mean nobody is really discussing that the graphics would be affected, scalability has been done in PC for ages.

I made an example of the different view ports used to render the portals and Ratched and Clank to point gameplay features only possible on next gen.
 
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VFXVeteran

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Which game? they do?
Before I answer, maybe I should ask you to clarify. Do you believe that a gaming company develops a game on a console (using off the shelf applications like Photoshop, Maya, Zbrush, etc..) and then port all the work to a PC?
 

DarkMage619

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That's graphics.

I'm talking about what you could achieve gameplay wise. I mean nobody is really discussing that the graphics would be affected, scalability has been done in PC for ages.

I made an example of the different view ports used to render the portals and Ratched and Clank to point gameplay features only possible on next gen.
At some point you are limited more by the type of game you are playing more than platform you are playing on. Take that Ratchet example you gave. That game was released on platforms from PS2 to PS5. They all have similar gameplay because that is what Ratchet is. Yes the one on PS5 has portals but at its core it's still another Ratchet game. The idea that just because you are making a game on a different platform would mean that you'd be playing an entirely new experience is a little overstated. In the end this Horizon game is a PS4 title. It isn't being held back because it is a PS4 game not PS5. Despite that it will still do things you can't do on PS4 like the haptics, audio, physics, resolution, and framerate. The glass should be looked at as half full over half empty; having great graphics is pretty durn important.
 

Rubim

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At some point you are limited more by the type of game you are playing more than platform you are playing on. Take that Ratchet example you gave. That game was released on platforms from PS2 to PS5. They all have similar gameplay because that is what Ratchet is. Yes the one on PS5 has portals but at its core it's still another Ratchet game. The idea that just because you are making a game on a different platform would mean that you'd be playing an entirely new experience is a little overstated. In the end this Horizon game is a PS4 title. It isn't being held back because it is a PS4 game not PS5. Despite that it will still do things you can't do on PS4 like the haptics, audio, physics, resolution, and framerate. The glass should be looked at as half full over half empty; having great graphics is pretty durn important.
None of that is gameplay, that's what people are talking about my dude.

Better graphics on PS5 is expected. Scalability happens every time on PC.

The main point is gameplay only, we already stablished that the game was made for PS4. That means nothing that could only be done on PS5 would appear.
 

DarkMage619

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None of that is gameplay, that's what people are talking about my dude.

Better graphics on PS5 is expected. Scalability happens every time on PC.

The main point is gameplay only, we already stablished that the game was made for PS4. That means nothing that could only be done on PS5 would appear.
How much could the gameplay have been changed but still keep the spirit of what is Horizon? Some would would argue that playing the game at 60 fps would affect gameplay quite a bit and would be another exclusive aspect to it being on PS5.
 

Rubim

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How much could the gameplay have been changed but still keep the spirit of what is Horizon? Some would would argue that playing the game at 60 fps would affect gameplay quite a bit and would be another exclusive aspect to it being on PS5.
I'm not here to be arguing about what people think gameplay is. That's a super weird argument.

Usually gameplay systems, you know how you said that Ratched and Clank still plays like a Ratched game with new gameplay additions? The same logic could be applied to Horizon Dawn, adding something only possible on newer hardware. More AI routines? More interactions between your gear and the enemy behavior? Maybe finally add flying that they said it was impossible on old gen?
 

Keihart

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Before I answer, maybe I should ask you to clarify. Do you believe that a gaming company develops a game on a console (using off the shelf applications like Photoshop, Maya, Zbrush, etc..) and then port all the work to a PC?
Why would i believe such a thing? Your are just dodging the implications of design in having a target platform.
 

Shmunter

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Really? I think this game will be a classic example of scaling in action. The sand deformation, the destruction of the wooden saddle on the robotic elephant, the underwater parts all looked fantastic and I'd wager were taking advantage of the PS5 CPIU/GPU. And this is with the game being 'held back' by the PS4. People are making a mountain out of molehill. The held back stuff is silly it's even worse when they try and shove the XSS into the conversation too.
The destruction is pre-canned it was confirmed somewhere. Not real-time physics. The sand deformation is nothing new either, it’s basically snow deformation already seen in the PS4 original.

The game will be identical on PS4 bar the typical scalable gfx improvements that don’t effect game design.
 
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VFXVeteran

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Why would i believe such a thing? Your are just dodging the implications of design in having a target platform.
I'm not dodging anything. Just state your claim clearly so we don't have to guess what you are saying.
 
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TheGrat1

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1. authority argument miam...
2. did you miss nanite was a thing ? do you see how this handle 90% of assets ?
are you still thinking practice at least using this engine will not change ?
i'm not even being just open minded here....
1. Well, I am not a game engine developer. Whose opinion should I take into consideration? Yours? What is "miam"?
2.

Do you not realize that ID Software makes their own engine that they license out for multiplatform development, just like Epic? He is one of the guys you say will develop these practices and he was still complaining about the Series S' specs. Meanwhile, you dismiss him. Also: Nanite and UE5 will not be used for every game going forward. Plenty of large publishers will be using their own proprietary engines and it is not guaranteed that they will have an equivalent to Nanite or that it will be as efficient.
I'd be happy to.
I will be waiting. It will be interesting to hear what he says now that he works for Microsoft.
No matter how many times this gets said it doesn't make it true. The XSS won't match the XSX in graphics, true. News flash! That's the point! SlimySnake SlimySnake just said CPU doesn't scale well but GPU does. The XSS has the SAME CPU as the XSX. Same SSD too. How in any way is that like PS4 and PS5? If you think that the XSS is 'weaker' than low end PC show me a $300 PC that can outperform the XSS. There are tons of PCs out there that don't even meet the XSS spec.

The ancient statement from the ID developer is especially funny. First off I wonder what he thinks now that the XSS development kit has been updated? Secondly what was the last game that ID came out with? Doom Eternal? Didn't that game run on the Switch? Doesn't ID specialize in making games that can run across a multitude of platforms as Doom proves? Yet for some reason the XSS stands alone as the platform developers can't make games for because it's too weak. It alone is holding the generation back. Well it and the PS4 apparently. It's silly.

I think that the PS5 version of Horizon would be impacted by running on a PS4 but that is NOTHING like an XSS version of a game running on the XSX. Do you guys honestly think the PS4 and XSS have the same performance profile? You guys really think highly of the PS4. If that's true maybe this guy is right and the PS4 won't impact Horizon at all.
How you gon' post a whole paragraph and then in the second paragraph say "First off"? :messenger_grinning_smiling: jk jk

Ancient? It was 9 months ago, lmao! And he was hardly the only dev that expressed similar concerns. Unless MS updated the XSS with more RAM I see no reason why his statement would not still be relevant.
Wow, a third developer (not ID themselves) ported Eternal to the Switch? Big whoop, it runs and looks like ass as a compromise. I am sure Eternal could be ported to the PS2 if one was determined enough. Your are not really making a point, here.
No one I know of said the XSS was too weak to make games for, especially not me. I am saying that minimum specs matter. The XSS having half the RAM of it's contemporaries matters. A game engine developer, with no apparent motivation for bias or to lie, told the world that it is not easy to compensate for and that it drags down next-gen development of his own volition. Are you telling me he is wrong?
 

dvdvideo

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Yadayada flap flap flap, the arguement goes round and round. The S is fine as is, buyers are happy, most developers have no issues.....that's the bottom line. Just as the ps4 development won't drop the sky on ps5.
 
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Cerberus_X

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Hmmm who to believe 🤔

An actual game dev or random arm chair devs🤔

1. Game dev could be lying to obviously sell this.

2. Arm chair devs told me before specs got released for this gen that 4k 30 was impossible and Ray tracing!!!!??? Pfft Forget about it till PS6 they said.

In all seriousness I think HFW will be just fine.
 
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SlimySnake

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So Avatar is next gen only and launching in 2022. Crazy that a third party game from Ubisoft of all companies is next gen and Sonys first party title isnt.

it also looks a gen ahead of horizon. but its game engine footage like the first horizon trailer so not sure if the final game will look as good.







Doesnt look shackled by last gen constraints either. Just wow.
 
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Kamina

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blah blah, can we have a Zero Dawn patch instead of marketing talk please?
 
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SSfox

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So Avatar is next gen only and launching in 2022. Crazy that a third party game from Ubisoft of all companies is next gen and Sonys first party title isnt.

it also looks a gen ahead of horizon. but its game engine footage like the first horizon trailer so not sure if the final game will look as good.







Doesnt look shackled by last gen constraints either. Just wow.
Avatar is FPS tho, just by that it already lost to horizon FW.
 
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