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Horizon Forbidden West game director says cross-gen development was "not limiting in any way", so many great ideas ended up being included

Corndog

Banned
Wow gaffer telling a dev how to do their job lol y’all are on one.
Wow human being called out for having an opinion

ps. I do have a computer science degree do I am not totally ignorant of what I’m talking about.
 
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I can't believe there aren't somethings that were held back by cross gen development. However, what else would you expect them to say, they are still trying to sell the game.

Sure Jan GIF
 
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GhostOfTsu

Banned
You got me! Last generation hardware will affect current generation software. What does that have to do with the XSS seeing how it is NOT last generation hardware sir? Also since when was GTA V a current generation game? It's pretty clear that I am saying that the comparing the XSS and PS4 is folly. You want to step up and explain how those platforms are alike?
Ok so Halo Infinite, Horizon 5 and Starfield will also be held back by last-gen then, yes? No true next-gen games for Series X for the next several years? Wow I'm so disappointed.
 

This says more about the developer than the console. So Guerrilla Games is telling us they couldn't come up with any idea at all that utilized the new capabilities offered by the PS5. Not surprised lmao.
 

SafeOrAlone

Banned
I'm just surprised at how many gamers are ignorant to how tech works. Don't get me wrong, I don't know anything about designing games, but the fact that people are attempting to deny the reality that cross-gen limits game design potential is just mindblowing.

If you're under 13 or new to the hobby I get it, but this is basic stuff.
 
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scydrex

Member
Alright....believe he is lying then. Maybe he is. I'm not educated enough on the matter to say one way or another. Are you?



Good thing PS4 isn't running Windows then, huh?

Well the only way to find out is in a couple of years when they develop something for PS5 only. I just don't believe him.
 

Topher

Gold Member
Well the only way to find out is in a couple of years when they develop something for PS5 only. I just don't believe him.

Ok....but I don't think it is fair to judge a game now with a game a couple of years away. Every gen seems to be a progression in learning how to do things and make it better.
 

Lethal01

Member
Ok....but I don't think it is fair to judge a game now with a game a couple of years away. Every gen seems to be a progression in learning how to do things and make it better.

There is no reason to wait, He went to the extreme and said the game won't be limited in anyway when it's objectively true that there are things that they can't do due to it being on PS4
 

nikolino840

Member
Reading Neogaf is lots of fun, since the next generation was announced and after reading several threads about several tech demos and games releases the conclusion I get is.

UE 5 lumen and nanite are not possible on Xbox because the SSD is not fast enough.

I/O speed is more important than GPU and CPU power.

Series S will hold back the next generation.

We believe in generations.

Then Sony switchs ship and all of a sudden everyone is fine with crossgen games and everything developed for PS5 can run on PS4 without holding back the PS5 capabilities because reasons... Lol.
Not only gaf....i tell you this...an italian youtuber couple,not a small content creators,is famous, (are invited by devs for study tours,previews,interviews and now are official partner of twitch italy for the e3 coverage) ...anyway..in a recent live they admitted that yes, they had been much tougher and more critical with Microsoft and that they were understanding and happy with Sony. But not because there was a disparity of judgment but only because, according to them, they changed their minds about crossgen
 

MastaKiiLA

Member
Not this shite again.

Let's finally unshackle ourselves from the crappy 5400rpm hard drive drives that we've been tied to for the best part of 2 decades and then we will be able to see what developers can come up with.

Honestly it's like some people here hate progress.
The SSD doesn't increase compute power though. It just increases the amount of data you can feed into memory. HDDs increased data streams over CDs. Did you see a major change in the games?

Game design isn't limited by hardware these days, in that you can find a workaround for any creative idea you have. R&C could be done on the PS2, you'd just have to strip away a lot of the visuals to fit assets in memory, as well as allow streaming of new assets.

We saw this with how Sony first party games really leaned into streaming systems, to pack more content into a single frame. R&C is really just a more mature version of what they've already done, where instead of pieces of the current map, they can now stream in an entire new map on the fly.

Implying that I don't want to see progress is false. I love progress, but I'm also not sure expectations are in line here. Depending on game type, there's a finite amount of change that can be brought about by simply increasing data throughout. Horizon isn't a game type that's limited by date throughout. It's an open world with humans, subject to real physical laws. What massive amount of data could be streamed into that setting that can't be done on the PS4? Increased travel speed seems like one area, but there's no reason they can't just limit travel speed in one version of the game, and not the other.

Everything else about the formula for this type of game seems compute-limited. They can use the SSD to feed more assets into memory, to let the PS5 version shine, but it feels like this game was going to be this whether they made a PS4 version or not.

Perhaps a question that should be asked is, why not have a PS4 version of the game design poses no compromises for the PS5 version? GT7 is a no-brainer in the regard. Racing circuits are closed, and there's nothing an SSD will provide that type of game other than load times and asset streaming. It's almost certainly compute limited.
 
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demonstr8

Member
If having to develop the game for PS4 alongside PS5 was "NOT limiting in ANY way" then why the fuck are you even developing the game for the PS5 at all?

Do these people even know the meaning of the words that they are using? Not - so the PS4 did not limit what they could do with the game versus the PS5 version in "any" way - not some, not many but ANY way. Not hardware wise, not tool wise, not optimization wise.

The gall of these executives to talk to their consumers as if they are retarded really triggers me. The only way this statement can be true is if 100% of every single facet of development of FW was for PS4 - have GG come out and said that was the case?
 

dottme

Member
So if we believe him, what we are getting this generation is just higher frame rate/higher resolution?
But Sony also said we believe in generation. I was expecting new generation should open new opportunities. But here, he is saying that the new generation is bringing anything on the table.

At the end of the day, we are just in a middle of damage control by Sony and it starts to look really bad.
 

decisions

Member
Absolute BS marketing speak.

People bought PS5s under the promise that there would be several exclusives for it that will now be on PS4. Meanwhile, Cerny's speech before it launched clearly demonstrated why the PS5 would enable new ways to design games.

Sony has no good will with me anymore. It's insane to think that after Ratchet there will not be a PS5 exclusive game for over a year, or possibly longer.
 

Stooky

Member
You can have wrong facts, or wrong understanding of something but no such thing as a wrong opinion.

edit: full disclaimer reset era would probably agree with you.
You can have wrong opinions. Example 1 Your opinion is wrong about there being no such thing about a wrong opinion. Example 2 opinion the sky is poka dot ......... WRONG. Example 3 dictating how a dev should spend a cycles on render budget with no knowledge of render budget, compute cycles on a shader, their pipeline or just the fact that they havent played the game yet ...is.... (drumroll)......WRONG.
 
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CamHostage

Member
Ok so Halo Infinite, Horizon 5 and Starfield will also be held back by last-gen then, yes? No true next-gen games for Series X for the next several years? Wow I'm so disappointed.

MS Flight Sim is currently scheduled as an Xbox Series X exclusive.

It's kind of tough to tell with MS's messaging though, they were saying everything for two years would be cross-gen, then they got some anger for that because fans didn't believe their story that they knew how to do cross-gen right after years of scaling software on PC (this was before Sony starting putting in fine print that it also would be doing some cross-gen,) then they really got anger when Halo Infinite was shown and it was a disaster and all the blame was put on it being cross-gen (despite it making a worse impression than any Xbox One-exclusive Halo,) and then they changed all the wording that said cross-gen and stopped speaking of Xbox One and hasn't shipped any titles since launch besides the Hivebusters DLC so who knows what's going on there...

Either way, I just cannot see how they would have cut down Flight Simulator to work on Xbox One... but, it was on the docket (or in the press, at least) and the project was in that "first two years" window, so most likely, they were going to try...
 
I'm making it perfectly clear that your stance on cross gen has changed and it's transparent why.

Your stance on XSS is also based on the exact same thing, defending MS. RAM is one of the most important things and you had id engine devs telling you how it affects the current gen but you decide this is an "ancient comment" when in fact it was fairly recent. What did they do to address it. I would love to hear what you think.
You know what you're right. Horizon FW can't be holding back the PS5 because it is a PS4 game. Just like Halo Infinite isn't being held back because it is a X1 game running on the X1. I also still stand by my comments that the XSS is not a last generation console so it has nothing to do with PS4/PS5 comparisons.

The ancient comment still stands too because last time I checked Doom was running on the Switch. Want to explain how ID games can run on the Switch and every PC under the sun but future ones won't be able to run on the XSS? How is the XSS uniquely incapable of running current generation games?

Finally believe it or not MS thought about the RAM situation on the XSS (I know it's tough to think anyone is smarter than the people here on GAF). Have you heard of sampler feedback streaming? Have you heard of Velocity Architecture? They're features found on the Series consoles that allow quick transport of data in and out of memory. These features haven't been used on cross generational titles because last generation consoles can't use em.

I'm sure the smart guys here noticed that the XSS has an 80/20 fast/slow memory ratio. This is different from the 60/40 split the XSX has. Meaning that most of the XSS memory has higher bandwidth. The biggest hog of memory is video data and the XSS is equipped with the features move that data in and out of the SSD something all XSS' have. Couple that with the fact that the XSS is running games at 1080p and we have a console that had plenty of memory for the resolution of the games it will be running. THE DUCK THE DUCK already explained how all Xbox games will be on PC and I'd love to hear how the XSS is weaker than every low end pc too.

Why didn't the ID developer mention this? I'd guess it's because he didn't have all the info on the system. We are still hearing about new features of the Series consoles to this day. Most people didn't know the XSS even existed and we have no evidence he knew about it either. Just like he didn't know ID was about to be bought by MS.😉
 

demonstr8

Member
Example 2 opinion the sky is poka dot ......... WRONG
That is not an opinion, that is a statement presented as fact. The only way something can be wrong is if it can be proven (true) or disproven (false), in which case, it is no longer an opinion, but an objective issue or a fact. An opinion is a preference for or judgment of something. My favorite color is black. I think mint tastes awful. Doctor Who is the best television show. Opinions can be stupid, absurd, unjust or irrational but "the sky is polka dot" is not a belief or thought on a subjective subject matter where there is insufficient evidence to produce complete certainty.

Your overuse of ellipsis and caps lock when responding make you seem like a know it all so maybe come down off your high horse a little bit when speaking to other people.
 
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CamHostage

Member
People bought PS5s under the promise that there would be several exclusives for it that will now be on PS4.

They did? Spider-Man and Horizon FW were announced as cross-gen games in September, and God of War was only listed as a logo, not even the name of a game, never as an exclusive title. (The only game that changed its listing is GT7.) Why did they buy PS5s in November if they were so against cross-gen when it was clear that there would be some cross-gen?
Meanwhile, Cerny's speech before it launched clearly demonstrated why the PS5 would enable new ways to design games.

And there will. But those new ways are taking time to design. Right now, game design is still dependent on established ways of designing games. You can get a game like R&C Rift Apart that really dials into a known factor of the hardware and maximizes it as a concept, but you still have to use the same technology used to make Spider-Man Miles Morales on PS4/PS5 to do it. Unreal Engine 5 is still a year away from commercial use. Advanced technology like in-game raytracing is still being explored of how to best use it (a number of games had to launch with no RT at all last year, Rift Apart just shipped with half-as-good RT resolution as the day one patch it will now have, and Spider-Man added RT-60 as a later feature; only Metro Exodus has full-scene RT, and even that enhanced version is only now coming to consoles.) Launch games were strong, but you're not going to find that the technology ready for a jump like you saw from KZ3 to KZ Shadow Fall or Dead Rising 3 to DR4 in the previous generation's launches. The facts we are living with unfortunately are that this next-gen is not like previous next-gens.
 

Keihart

Member
The SSD doesn't increase compute power though. It just increases the amount of data you can feed into memory. HDDs increased data streams over CDs. Did you see a major change in the games?

Game design isn't limited by hardware these days, in that you can find a workaround for any creative idea you have. R&C could be done on the PS2, you'd just have to strip away a lot of the visuals to fit assets in memory, as well as allow streaming of new assets.

We saw this with how Sony first party games really leaned into streaming systems, to pack more content into a single frame. R&C is really just a more mature version of what they've already done, where instead of pieces of the current map, they can now stream in an entire new map on the fly.

Implying that I don't want to see progress is false. I love progress, but I'm also not sure expectations are in line here. Depending on game type, there's a finite amount of change that can be brought about by simply increasing data throughout. Horizon isn't a game type that's limited by date throughout. It's an open world with humans, subject to real physical laws. What massive amount of data could be streamed into that setting that can't be done on the PS4? Increased travel speed seems like one area, but there's no reason they can't just limit travel speed in one version of the game, and not the other.

Everything else about the formula for this type of game seems compute-limited. They can use the SSD to feed more assets into memory, to let the PS5 version shine, but it feels like this game was going to be this whether they made a PS4 version or not.

Perhaps a question that should be asked is, why not have a PS4 version of the game design poses no compromises for the PS5 version? GT7 is a no-brainer in the regard. Racing circuits are closed, and there's nothing an SSD will provide that type of game other than load times and asset streaming. It's almost certainly compute limited.
Very known examples of this are the 3 uncharteds and TLoU in PS3, ND has gone into detail on the struggles and how they used the hardrive combined with the disc drive to stream the data necessary. Not only that, but most games during the past generation started using a lot of streaming and optimizing ways to maintain speeds on hardrives, so yes, streaming from a CD to a hardrive did have an impact on game design.
 

Shmunter

Member
What agenda do I have with telling the facts? You literally "see" right in front of your face how games are designed. We do NOT develop graphics engines from a console nor do we limit what we want to do based only on a low-end console. This isn't a conversation up for debate, it's actual FACT! I just get tired of people ignoring those facts.
Jesus wept this is so tiresome. Games aren’t just the GFX engine. The sooner you pull your head out of your extremely narrow view the sooner you can grow.
 

scydrex

Member
The SSD doesn't increase compute power though. It just increases the amount of data you can feed into memory. HDDs increased data streams over CDs. Did you see a major change in the games?

Game design isn't limited by hardware these days, in that you can find a workaround for any creative idea you have. R&C could be done on the PS2, you'd just have to strip away a lot of the visuals to fit assets in memory, as well as allow streaming of new assets.

We saw this with how Sony first party games really leaned into streaming systems, to pack more content into a single frame. R&C is really just a more mature version of what they've already done, where instead of pieces of the current map, they can now stream in an entire new map on the fly.

Implying that I don't want to see progress is false. I love progress, but I'm also not sure expectations are in line here. Depending on game type, there's a finite amount of change that can be brought about by simply increasing data throughout. Horizon isn't a game type that's limited by date throughout. It's an open world with humans, subject to real physical laws. What massive amount of data could be streamed into that setting that can't be done on the PS4? Increased travel speed seems like one area, but there's no reason they can't just limit travel speed in one version of the game, and not the other.

Everything else about the formula for this type of game seems compute-limited. They can use the SSD to feed more assets into memory, to let the PS5 version shine, but it feels like this game was going to be this whether they made a PS4 version or not.

Perhaps a question that should be asked is, why not have a PS4 version of the game design poses no compromises for the PS5 version? GT7 is a no-brainer in the regard. Racing circuits are closed, and there's nothing an SSD will provide that type of game other than load times and asset streaming. It's almost certainly compute limited.

GT7 is a racing simulation. What does a better CPU offers? Better physics for example and higher FPS. If they do a PS4 version then the PS4 version will be the minimum spec and from there the PS5 will offer better res, graphics and FPS. But the core of the game will still be a PS4 game. They will not have a PS4 physics and a PS5 physics. That's the problem.
 

Stooky

Member
That is not an opinion, that is a statement presented as fact. The only way something can be wrong is if it can be proven (true) or disproven (false), in which case, it is no longer an opinion, but an objective issue or a fact. An opinion is a preference for or judgment of something. My favorite color is black. I think mint tastes awful. Doctor Who is the best television show. Opinions can be stupid, absurd, unjust or irrational but "the sky is polka dot" is not a belief or thought on a subjective subject matter where there is insufficient evidence to produce complete certainty.

Your overuse of ellipsis and caps lock when responding make you seem like a know it all so maybe come down off your high horse a little bit when speaking to other people.
I see your point on opinions. I'm going to sit on my 'high horse' on this topic because I earned it. I have been working in this industry long enough to know his opinion is severely misinformed. Is that better?
 
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Dr Bass

Member
GT7 is a racing simulation. What does a better CPU offers? Better physics for example and higher FPS. If they do a PS4 version then the PS4 version will be the minimum spec and from there the PS5 will offer better res, graphics and FPS. But the core of the game will still be a PS4 game. They will not have a PS4 physics and a PS5 physics. That's the problem.
Are you totally sure about that? I mean I don't know what this game is going to be like, but why couldn't they do this? Seems like it's absolutely a possibility. More realistic driving and simulation on the PS5 if they choose to do that.
 

Shmunter

Member
Are you totally sure about that? I mean I don't know what this game is going to be like, but why couldn't they do this? Seems like it's absolutely a possibility. More realistic driving and simulation on the PS5 if they choose to do that.
If the games were independent with no cross play like in past gens. But this will most certainly allow for ps4 vs ps5 gameplay, maybe even PC at some point. You can have different GFX settings as they are superficial, but the game cannot behave differently under such circumstances.

Even without cross play, it is unlikely 2 different games ever get produced. It will be just the typical PC style of slider scalability adjustments working on gfx settings only. Core logic remains at the lowest common denominator.
 

demonstr8

Member
I see your point on opinions. I'm going to sit on my 'high horse' on this topic because I earned it. I have been working in this industry long enough to know his opinion is severely misinformed. Is that better?
Yes, your response makes perfect sense and I'm not being sarcastic in saying that. Also, my 'high horse' remark was directed at the general tone of your comment not your capacity within the video game industry. It's totally fair and logical to point out a severely misinformed opinion on something especially when you have much greater knowledge due to exposure and hands on experience in said industry as long as you don't indulge in any logical fallacies to do so (which is what I originally picked up on).

Thanks for your effortful response BTW, I'm not being sarcastic in saying that either.
 

InDaGulag

Member
All this nonsense wouldn't be necessary if Sony was upfront about cross-gen games like Microsoft was. But noooo, better to tell little white lies to get the hardcore gamers on board with you in a pointless console war. I feel sorry for all the Sony devs on social media and in interviews now forced to take the heat from this cynical marketing tactic.
 

VFXVeteran

Banned
Jesus wept this is so tiresome.
It's getting tiring with you guy's lame armchair developing too. I'm surprised you are even talking to me after being completely wrong about UE5 tech demo requiring SSD.

Games aren’t just the GFX engine.
Games are developed on the GFX engine. What a dumb thing to say. Literally EVERYTHING is in it (physics, animation, sound, etc..). You should download the UE5 source code and take a course on game development. After finishing, you will suddenly find nothing wrong with me emphasizing a GFX engine as the source of all game development.

The sooner you pull your head out of your extremely narrow view the sooner you can grow.
Immature as usual.
 
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Polygonal_Sprite

Gold Member
I have a feeling this was planned as a final year PS4 game but due to scheduling it got changed to sell PS5 then announced as cross gen. It will be a last gen game at higher resolution and framerate with better quality visuals like a PC version. People will be shocked how good the PS4 version will look as they’ve had three years of engine development and further PS4 optimisations.

I’m happy with that as long as it’s a more interesting game than the original story wise.
 
In God of War 2 on PS4 they can still have the walking for a few seconds from fast travel door to fast travel door.
god-of-war-how-to-fast-travel.jpg

On PS5, they can just make you walk through it. Idk why it being cross-gen, would stop you from doing this.
GIF-08-06-2021-16-50-17.gif

In Horizon this wouldnt make sense. Maybe the Aloy goes to sleep and wakes up in another bonfire, instantly

What next gen only ideas do people want in Horizon2 and GOW2?

I just want more enemies and more graphics from GOW2.
I want air riding, more enemies, and GRAPHICS.
 

AGRacing

Gold Member
Of course this is BS. I mean why didn't Cerny just strap the Jaguar cores to a bigger GPU in the first place if this was the case ? Why not give us a 4TB conventional drive instead of a 600GB SSD? Give me a break.

Maybe these guys worked with a garbage CPU for so long they forgot what to do with a real one.
 
I mean, wtf guys, the PS4 was capable of Death Stranding, God of War and TLOU2 at the END of it's life cycle.

I could believe it.

How it looks, or performs, is a different story.
 

kanjobazooie

Mouse Ball Fetishist
I'm one of those 5 people on this planet who want Guerilla to drop Horizon and go back to Killzone, but even I can see that the new game looks amazing and truly next-gen.

Just because the SSD or whatever wasn't utilised 100% it doesn't mean it's gonna be a shitty ancient game. The PS5 verison is still the definitive one and will look and run a hundred times better than PS4.
 

Shmunter

Member
It's getting tiring with you guy's lame armchair developing too. I'm surprised you are even talking to me after being completely wrong about UE5 tech demo requiring SSD.


Games are developed on the GFX engine. What a dumb thing to say. Literally EVERYTHING is in it (physics, animation, sound, etc..). You should download the UE5 source code and take a course on game development. After finishing, you will suddenly find nothing wrong with me emphasizing a GFX engine as the source of all game development.


Immature as usual.
Who said UE5 requires an SSD? You’re imagination. UE5 scales with the hardware including the memory of which SSD supplements. Always has been the case. But I don’t blame you for resorting to this when you’ve got nothing.

UE5 is a game engine, of which gfx are a part of. You can’t even get that right, simplifying it down to GFX only. Extremely narrow view like I said.
 

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
In God of War 2 on PS4 they can still have the walking for a few seconds from fast travel door to fast travel door.
On PS5, they can just make you walk through it. Idk why it being cross-gen, would stop you from doing this.

In Horizon this wouldnt make sense. Maybe the Aloy goes to sleep and wakes up in another bonfire, instantly

What next gen only ideas do people want in Horizon2 and GOW2?

I just want more enemies and more graphics from GOW2.
I want air riding, more enemies, and GRAPHICS.
SSD isnt just for fast travel. It's for faster traversal. You can load shit on the fly and really make you go as fast as possible.

01bc1c8dbf75cb2348dcf08296f8fe1c.gif


I want big epic war scenes like this. None of that trash take on 3-5 enemies on at once with no NPCs helping you out like its 2005 and we are still playing GoW on PS2.

94359946c3aeee10a10edd7817274b3a.gif


I dont just want to ride a dinobot, I want to ride it fast while breaking everything in my path.

KD3ulSM.gif


I am tired of playing games where my fire arrows or fire bombs dont set anything on fire. I am tired of trees just standing there in the middle of a fire fight. I am tired of static worlds that feel dead. I am tired of shit that hasnt improved since 2005.
 
SSD isnt just for fast travel. It's for faster traversal. You can load shit on the fly and really make you go as fast as possible.

01bc1c8dbf75cb2348dcf08296f8fe1c.gif


I want big epic war scenes like this. None of that trash take on 3-5 enemies on at once with no NPCs helping you out like its 2005 and we are still playing GoW on PS2.

94359946c3aeee10a10edd7817274b3a.gif


I dont just want to ride a dinobot, I want to ride it fast while breaking everything in my path.

KD3ulSM.gif


I am tired of playing games where my fire arrows or fire bombs dont set anything on fire. I am tired of trees just standing there in the middle of a fire fight. I am tired of static worlds that feel dead. I am tired of shit that hasnt improved since 2005.
Lmao youre expecting alot. Developers throw parties when they make leafs move. You bascially want Minecraft destruction with Uncharted 5 graphics with a map the size of Just Cause 5.
 
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