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Horizon Forbidden West game director says cross-gen development was "not limiting in any way", so many great ideas ended up being included

Jun 28, 2013
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Nevermind, I think I misunderstood you.

But to be clear, if you want things like more enemies and air riding, PS4 is going to stand in the way of that reaching it's potential, 100%.
I dont see why that has to be. The PS5 version is 70$ include the PS5 exclusive air flying DLC. I dont even think thats impossible on the PS4. They can just make the world make blurry and drop textures on flight. And on the PS5 it can all be crisp. Kraken isnt PS5 exclusive. Also have a PS5 exclusive extra hard mode that has smarter and more enemies. People do have to realize that PS5 exclusive games only have been in development for 2 years. Horizon 2 has two years of exclusive development on PS4, 4 in total. I expect huge gains, even if it was PS4 exclusive.

Do both versions have to be equal besides visuals? But youre right, no flight riding would be a disappointment. But besides that what do you want that cant be done on the PS4, but expect on PS5.
 

Rubim

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You're saturating one aspect of it that way, leaving other parts severely underutilized.

Yes, so why are you bringing that up? I'm talking about what an SSD could bring to an open world game, not a flight sim.

You should go watch Insomniac's GDC talk on what they had to do to make Spider-Man even function on the PS4 with its slow HDD, and all the data transfer limitations they had to find workarounds for. Then come back to me and tell me that fast flying (or just faster movement in general) in an even more detailed game could work just fine with an HDD. You don't seem to really understand what I'm trying to explain to you, maybe they can.
Weird. People should try to see what happens when you try to put many objects on the screen and try to render that on PS4. Oh, they did. On Cyberjunk 2077.

People should play that game on PS4 then after it, play on PC and compare how the streaming does not affect stuff.
 

RoadHazard

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Weird. People should try to see what happens when you try to put many objects on the screen and try to render that on PS4. Oh, they did. On Cyberjunk 2077.

People should play that game on PS4 then after it, play on PC and compare how the streaming does not affect stuff.

A lot of those issues on PS4 are exactly because of a combination of slow HDD and weak CPU. Sure, the GPU isn't really up to the task either, but that's not the main issue.
 
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John Wick

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I'm saying the ps5 version will be better thanks to the better hardware and ps4 version will run according to the ps4 hardware. Just like pc game run on gpu/cpu from 8 years ago but looks and perform better on new hardware. Pretty easy concept so I honestly can't comprehend all the drama.
Don't you know dude PC gamers have always been playing crossgen games 😂😂😂
 
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mckmas8808

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I suggest you apply Occam's razor to them, maybe it's a new concept to you :)

Also, if i understand it right, your implication that Ps5 hardware has been shown to not change gameplay is, it's like your ticket to not being taken seriously anymore

What are you talking about? I think you understood me wrong. I'm saying the PS5 hardware WILL and HAS changed gameplay.

I mean you listen to devs talking about game dev, and now you think you're a game developer.

And that bolded really was an absurd question to ask. You people make Tom Clancy look like a complete amature sometimes...

You (not you you) cant even think outside the box (based on all of the logical conclusions backed by evidence), and you think you know what game development is all about.

So why are you believing the words of this dev that's trying to actively sell us a game over other devs that just discussion game development at a developer's conference? What happen to logic with people these days? I'm unsure why you're so dead set on the theory that this current gen hardware can't be used in anyway to improve gameplay or do new things. It's so odd.

If we aren't talking about graphics here, then what are we talking about? Can you name any game from the PS4 era that was doing something more than the PS3/PS2 era from a gameplay perspective? Consider the Uncharted series as an example.

In a nutshell, it's extremely confusing when you guys complain about HFW being held back but not stating what the PS5 can do over the PS4 *gameplay* wise. HFW doesn't need portals like R&C, so what else?

Honestly, most of us are talking about everything a game can do. Not just graphics. Hence, why some of us brought up the new Ratchet and Clank game. And stop saying silly things like "HFW doesn't need portals like R&C". Portals aren't the only way to use the SSD in a game for gameplay purposes.
 

SafeOrAlone

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I dont see why that has to be. The PS5 version is 70$ include the PS5 exclusive air flying DLC. I dont even think thats impossible on the PS4. They can just make the world make blurry and drop textures on flight. And on the PS5 it can all be crisp. Kraken isnt PS5 exclusive. Also have a PS5 exclusive extra hard mode that has smarter and more enemies. People do have to realize that PS5 exclusive games only have been in development for 2 years. Horizon 2 has two years of exclusive development on PS4, 4 in total. I expect huge gains, even if it was PS4 exclusive.

Do both versions have to be equal besides visuals? But youre right, no flight riding would be a disappointment. But besides that what do you want that cant be done on the PS4, but expect on PS5.
It stands to reason that making big changes specific to PS5 would greatly effect balancing.
 
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scydrex

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Are you totally sure about that? I mean I don't know what this game is going to be like, but why couldn't they do this? Seems like it's absolutely a possibility. More realistic driving and simulation on the PS5 if they choose to do that.

 

VFXVeteran

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You should go watch Insomniac's GDC talk on what they had to do to make Spider-Man even function on the PS4 with its slow HDD, and all the data transfer limitations they had to find workarounds for. Then come back to me and tell me that fast flying (or just faster movement in general) in an even more detailed game could work just fine with an HDD. You don't seem to really understand what I'm trying to explain to you, maybe they can.
I don't know why you are talking to me as if I have no clue about what my game developer comrades do. You go ahead and wish upon a star with this SSD the entire generation. I will revisit this conversation in a few years. As of now, I don't want to discuss what a game can/cannot do with it's hardware with someone who is a *fan* and not a developer. It's a huge waste of time.
 
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RoadHazard

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I don't know why you are talking to me as if I have no clue about what my game developer comrades do. You go ahead and wish upon a star with this SSD the entire generation. I will revisit this conversation in a few years. As of now, I don't want to discuss what a game can/cannot do with it's hardware. It's a huge waste of time.

I thought you were in the offline rendering VFX industry, not video game development?

Either way, your agenda has been far too obvious for a very long time. The way you enter every thread about console tech to downplay it and sing the PC platform's praises.
 
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VFXVeteran

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Honestly, most of us are talking about everything a game can do. Not just graphics. Hence, why some of us brought up the new Ratchet and Clank game. And stop saying silly things like "HFW doesn't need portals like R&C". Portals aren't the only way to use the SSD in a game for gameplay purposes.
Come up with another usage then. You guys keep saying "a game isn't next-gen unless it's using the SSD". It's completely a joke with the rationale with the Sony warriors here. You complain about hardware not being fully taken advantage of, but you only have the SSD->VRAM innovation to use as an example. What other piece of hardware in the PS5 is supposed to stand out among all the other hardware? Or is it that the other hardware pieces are just "average" compared to the next-gen systems.

The ONLY people complaining about this cross-gen shit is ----- wait for it ---- Sony warriors! Not a single fan of other platforms are complaining. That tells me a LOT about the mentality of Sony gamers (i.e. elitist and irrational) on these boards.
 

mckmas8808

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I don't know why you are talking to me as if I have no clue about what my game developer comrades do. You go ahead and wish upon a star with this SSD the entire generation. I will revisit this conversation in a few years. As of now, I don't want to discuss what a game can/cannot do with it's hardware with someone who is a *fan* and not a developer. It's a huge waste of time.

Then why are you on this forum VFX? 99% of us here are gaming "fans" and not developers. What you said is such a weird thing to say to someone.
 

hemo memo

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I don't know why you are talking to me as if I have no clue about what my game developer comrades do. You go ahead and wish upon a star with this SSD the entire generation. I will revisit this conversation in a few years. As of now, I don't want to discuss what a game can/cannot do with it's hardware with someone who is a *fan* and not a developer. It's a huge waste of time.
Even Bad Rats can call themselves developers dude. You obviously lack the knowledge and the common sense regarding game design if you can’t work your head around the difference between an HDD and SSD.
 

VFXVeteran

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I thought you were in the offline rendering VFX industry, not video game development?
Here we go again with credentials. I've been out of offline rendering for 4yrs. And guess what? Even if I was still working in offline rendering, I know exactly what goes on with game engines since CG companies have their own realtime game engine lighting tools. Try again.

Either way, your agenda has been far too obvious for a very long time.
And so has yours - to continue to push the only piece of PS5 hardware unique in this next-generation -- SSD. It distorts objective facts and allows you to become an armchair developer trying to tell real developers how they can make a game.


The way you enter every thread about console tech to downplay it and sing the PC platform's praises.
Actually no. How about the other way around. You guys enter every thread trying to boast about the SSD on the PS5 which causes console warring.
 

mckmas8808

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Come up with another usage then. You guys keep saying "a game isn't next-gen unless it's using the SSD". It's completely a joke with the rationale with the Sony warriors here. You complain about hardware not being fully taken advantage of, but you only have the SSD->VRAM innovation to use as an example. What other piece of hardware in the PS5 is supposed to stand out among all the other hardware? Or is it that the other hardware pieces are just "average" compared to the next-gen systems.

The ONLY people complaining about this cross-gen shit is ----- wait for it ---- Sony warriors! Not a single fan of other platforms are complaining. That tells me a LOT about the mentality of Sony gamers (i.e. elitist and irrational) on these boards.

Why? I'm not a developer. But other devs have said that they will on Twitter and I believe them. I have no reason not to (consider I do understand the basics of the technology in the PS4 and PS5). Plus we AREN'T just talking about the SSD and we AREN'T just talking about graphics. We are talking about......

- The better CPU with stronger cores that are more efficient and run at a higher speed
- The better GPU that is WAAAY more efficient, has the ability to do things that the last gen GPUs couldn't, and have 5-6 times more total power.
- The SSD of course.
- The physical I\O hardware in the PS5 to make data streaming super efficient and remove most bottlenecks
- And the increase in RAM size and RAM speed.
 

VFXVeteran

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Even Bad Rats can call themselves developers dude. You obviously lack the knowledge and the common sense regarding game design if you can’t work your head around the difference between an HDD and SSD.
Right. I'll wait for your tech threads on these boards. Let me know when you have one posted. 🤷‍♂️
 
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VFXVeteran

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Why? I'm not a developer. But other devs have said that they will on Twitter and I believe them. I have no reason not to (consider I do understand the basics of the technology in the PS4 and PS5). Plus we AREN'T just talking about the SSD and we AREN'T just talking about graphics. We are talking about......

- The better CPU with stronger cores that are more efficient and run at a higher speed
OK. So what should they do better with their game design with a CPU then? How do you make the new BF do more complex things?

- The better GPU that is WAAAY more efficient, has the ability to do things that the last gen GPUs couldn't, and have 5-6 times more total power.
We've had better GPU for years on the PC. And?

- The SSD of course.
Yeap. Other than streaming performance of data on a disc. What else can it do for a game?

- The physical I\O hardware in the PS5 to make data streaming super efficient and remove most bottlenecks
That was a part of your SSD. The two are the same.

- And the increase in RAM size and RAM speed.
RAM size increase. OK. What to do with all that RAM?
 

RoadHazard

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Here we go again with credentials. I've been out of offline rendering for 4yrs. And guess what? Even if I was still working in offline rendering, I know exactly what goes on with game engines since CG companies have their own realtime game engine lighting tools. Try again.


And so has yours - to continue to push the only piece of PS5 hardware unique in this next-generation -- SSD. It distorts objective facts and allows you to become an armchair developer trying to tell real developers how they can make a game.



Actually no. How about the other way around. You guys enter every thread trying to boast about the SSD on the PS5 which causes console warring.

Offline CG has absolutely nothing to do with real-time data streaming in games. Lighting is a complete different matter.

Point me to a thread not about PS5 (or a PS5 game) where I've "boasted" about the SSD. You are in a thread about a PS5 game right now. I am not in a thread about a PC game.
 

VFXVeteran

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Then why are you on this forum VFX? 99% of us here are gaming "fans" and not developers. What you said is such a weird thing to say to someone.
No it's not. I'm not a gamer thinking I know how games work or how they are designed. That's called arrogance. Especially when I have no clue how a game loop works. It's like you guys would walk up to John Carmack and say, "hey, you aren't using your engine correctly. You should be using the SSD to do .. anything".. Do you know how ignorant and stupid that sounds?
 

mckmas8808

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OK. So what should they do better with their game design with a CPU then? How do you make the new BF do more complex things?


We've had better GPU for years on the PC. And?


Yeap. Other than streaming performance of data on a disc. What else can it do for a game?


That was a part of your SSD. The two are the same.


RAM size increase. OK. What to do with all that RAM?

1. It's up to devs to figure out what to do with the better CPU. And I'm 100% sure they will. If I had some great examples, I wouldn't be working at the job I have now. I'd be a developer lol.

2. I don't care 1% about a PC. Why bring it up here? Give me just ONE PC only game that's been made over the last 5-8 years. Just one. Please.

3. How can you say, "Other than streaming performance of data on a disc. What else can it do for a game?" That's the point! Better streaming performance of data (and NOT on a disc mind you) is great for development. 9 GBs is better than 50 MBs per second.

4. Devs will figure out what to do with all that RAM. Again, why are you expecting us to have all those answers right now?
 

mckmas8808

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No it's not. I'm not a gamer thinking I know how games work or how they are designed. That's called arrogance. Especially when I have no clue how a game loop works. It's like you guys would walk up to John Carmack and say, "hey, you aren't using your engine correctly. You should be using the SSD to do .. anything".. Do you know how ignorant and stupid that sounds?

Once again I'll ask you........why are you ignoring the other developers that have said the new hardware in these consoles WILL change game development for them in design? Many have already said that they be able to come up with new concepts that weren't possible before. You should be wondering why they are saying that. It's not just us armchair devs lol.
 

VFXVeteran

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Once again I'll ask you........why are you ignoring the other developers that have said the new hardware in these consoles WILL change game development for them in design?
They are more BS talking than all the other bogus claims. Whoever the designers are, let's see what their game looks like. If you think every Sony developer will have the resources to make Nanite or Lumen with their own graphics engines, you will be disappointed - considerably.

Many have already said that they be able to come up with new concepts that weren't possible before. You should be wondering why they are saying that. It's not just us armchair devs lol.
Receipts..
 

NickFire

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The ONLY people complaining about this cross-gen shit is ----- wait for it ---- Sony warriors! Not a single fan of other platforms are complaining. That tells me a LOT about the mentality of Sony gamers (i.e. elitist and irrational) on these boards.
PS5 owners have non-cross gen games to compare to cross gen games, and like the non-cross gen games better. Which is to be expected when one game is designed to utilize the hardware better than a different game. Calling these people elitist or irrational is one hell of a way to erode credibility.
 

VFXVeteran

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PS5 owners have non-cross gen games to compare to cross gen games, and like the non-cross gen games better. Which is to be expected when one game is designed to utilize the hardware better than a different game. Calling these people elitist or irrational is one hell of a way to erode credibility.
They are elitist because they are convinced that only a non-cross gen game will exercise the PS5's hardware properly. They completely ignore any other game out there whether it be cross-gen or from a 3rd party developer. They are stuck in their own little world where nothing else exists except a Sony 1st party game. That's why so many of them are outraged at the PC port agenda.

There is nothing wrong with cross-gen games or 3rd party games. Returnal doesn't rival anywhere near most of the 3rd party games for this generation. Demon Souls is the same game with higher resolution textures.

Lastly credibility on this site from people who will say developers are lying about their claims? Ask yourself why so many developers left this site. It wasn't because of the Xbox, Nintendo or PC fans antagonizing them. Try Sony.
 
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RoadHazard

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Bro. Do you honestly think someone from CG industry doesn't understand or know how realtime data streaming works? Really?? :messenger_tears_of_joy: :messenger_tears_of_joy:

Take care man.

Having offline CG experience doesn't give you much credibility when it comes to real-time game engine data streaming, especially the new ways that's being done now that simply couldn't be done before (on console or PC), no. And you're clearly demonstrating that with your lack of understanding of what the PS5's I/O architecture makes possible vs an old HDD.

Have a good one! Don't stray into too many PS5 threads, it's not good for your health!
 
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Tomeru

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So why are you believing the words of this dev that's trying to actively sell us a game over other devs that just discussion game development at a developer's conference? What happen to logic with people these days? I'm unsure why you're so dead set on the theory that this current gen hardware can't be used in anyway to improve gameplay or do new things. It's so odd.
What is this dev saying that other devs say is not true?
 

Sid Of Bee

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Then this begs the question... Why get a PS5 if it doesn't offer any extra capabilities to systems, gameplay, world building, and physics? If the PS5 is just a PS4 with slightly better graphics, this makes sense. Otherwise, it BS. I believe it's BS.
 
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Think about this for 2 seconds before you post, min pc spec is less ram, far weaker processor, and far weaker gpu. Not to mention they won't even run features like rt.

Let's take a recent aaa pc game, resident evil village for example, here's the min pc spec:

AMD Ryzen 3 1200 or Intel Core i5-7500 CPU, AMD Radeon RX 560 (4GB) or Nvidia GeForce GTX 1050 Ti (4GB) GPU, 8GB of RAM

If you think an rx560/gtx1050 with those cpu's isn't completely trounced by the closed architecture newer system the series s uses, you are brain dead. The series s is at minimum twice as powerfull as this min pc spec, leaning more like 3 times with modern efficiencies vs the 5 year old entry level gpu that is a gtx1050. And by the way, before you say no pc gamer plays at this, check steam stats and you'll find a good portion just above this at 1060 level. And its irrelevant anyhow, as the game must be designed to actually run at the minimum spec - so it's still, by a wide, wide margin, the weakest link.

And my pc, ps5, and switch that I game on all say hi.
Ok thanks for demonstrating you know nothing about pc and minimum spec and proving my point with your little rant, of course that troll darkmage is cheering you on too.

The baseline for RE Village is xbox1 that console that's 8 years old and out of date at the time. A PC with a ryzen 3 1200 and rf560 or gtx1050 blows both xbox1 and ps4 out of the water and the ryzen 1200 is a bag of shit.

You are a clown since you're using a game that is on these platforms
Talk to me about next gen only games Series S/X, ps5 that is also on PC then we will see what PC minimum spec looks like and compare; oh wait there isn't any yet.

You're comparing cross gen games holding back PS5 games and trying to gloat about people talking about the Series S potentially holding back next gen. The 2 are not compatible in the slightest and you're garbage ill informed about PC minimum spec doesn't back you up either.

I find it funny these Xbox trolls are always bragging that they own every system ie ps5, yet spend all day trolling for xbox.
 

GymWolf

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Come up with another usage then. You guys keep saying "a game isn't next-gen unless it's using the SSD". It's completely a joke with the rationale with the Sony warriors here. You complain about hardware not being fully taken advantage of, but you only have the SSD->VRAM innovation to use as an example. What other piece of hardware in the PS5 is supposed to stand out among all the other hardware? Or is it that the other hardware pieces are just "average" compared to the next-gen systems.

The ONLY people complaining about this cross-gen shit is ----- wait for it ---- Sony warriors! Not a single fan of other platforms are complaining. That tells me a LOT about the mentality of Sony gamers (i.e. elitist and irrational) on these boards.

i have some examples not strictly related to the ssd (i mean, not all of them)

numbers of dinobot on screen at the same time, the reveal of the first horizon had multiple tallnecks (the biggest dinobot in the game) on screen at the same time while the final game only had one on screen with other minor small dinobot around to control the area, and if we talk about dinobot, the original game only had 5-8 between small, medium and big dinobot on screen at the same time (with different ratio, like 2 trex and maybe 2 small dinobot, so 4 in total to stay in the rendering budget), a more powerfull cpu and gpu would be necessary to push more polygons and having more stuff on screen in general (humans, dinobot, natural fauna etc.), i don't need to tell you that you can't make a massive battle with a fuckload of stuff on screen without enough rendering power, especially when dinobots are not your average throw away enemies but super high detailed mini-boss with high polycount for each one of them.

the dinobot in the first one had a very limited range of movements from their original point on the map, with a better cpu\ssd\ram you can improve that, it was very frustrating trying to allure a dinobot into an area of another dinobot to make them fight just to have the dinobot return into his starting position after 100 mt...

the physics and destruction is exactly the same as horizon 1, more present during setpieces, and trees, rocks and some plants in the open world (the game director confirmed this word by word in a recent interview when directyl asked about destruction), exactly like H1 (believe me, i have 150 hours on that game), don't tell me that a powerfull ryzen cpu can't do massively better in term of destruction compared to an old jaguar, and before you answer, remember your beloved avengers game and how destruction on pc with the setting maxed out was far better than the console version that also had severe framerate problems with a lot of debris on screen.
I vaguely know that nvidia can do a lot of physics via gpu and that amd can't do the same as easily if i remember well, and why even suffocate the gpu when you have a powerfull cpu just for that.


flying mounts, i don't know if guerrilla lied about the inability of doing super fast flying mechanics while maintaining all the details because the hard disk was too slow, but if they didn't lied, that's another one to add to the list, and i bet that guerrilla knows more than you about their game\engine.

Level design and how they design set pieces, i don't need to tell you how squeezing into a tunnel to load the set pieces would be a problem of the past with an ssd instead of an ancient 5400rps hard disk.

They don't even have cpu power to spare to add ragdoll to human enemies and dinobot, if you look closely you can see how they use the same precanned death animations system even on forbidden west (yes, even when you see the enemy flying from the mammouth because of the explosion, they literally glue on the ground with a fixed position the moment they touch the ground), and obviously you can't add ragdoll on the ps5 and not in the ps4 version, is too much of a noticeable difference, so again, the lower common denominator wins), and before you answer, yes, ragdoll can be pretty heavy on the cpu, especially in a game with a lof of bodies on screen that can be moved by explosions or giant enemies (but you already know that)
Onestly the lack of ragdoll can be a design choice, but i don't believe that for a second since guerrila is the people who made this,

As far as i know, you are limited by the ram when you have to render a lot of different type of enemies on screen at the same time, ps5 has double and faster ram than ps4, plus ssd fuckery, again, you can't do a massive battle between humans, dinobot etc. when you can't render more than 5 type of enemies at the same time.

You say that horizon doens't use portals, sure, but imagine this scene, you are fighting a huge dinobot and he destroy the ground where you stand and aloy fall into a complete different area, you can't do such a fast change of scene without an ssd without losing details or slowing down a bit to load the next scene, and that is just a stupid example, every scene that demand a seamless change of scene is fucked by the ps4 hard disk.

another one you noticed in the last trailer of HFW, the lack of realistic reaction from some grass and other vegetation, and a sand tech that look exactly like yellow snow tech from ps4 gen, even the small craters after an explosions are clearly pre-canned and not dynamic, people pull their hairs off for that details and i'm here thinking that it look worse than the mud deformation on rdr2...



Sorry for the lack of technicality and my english.
 
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MastaKiiLA

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Very known examples of this are the 3 uncharteds and TLoU in PS3, ND has gone into detail on the struggles and how they used the hardrive combined with the disc drive to stream the data necessary. Not only that, but most games during the past generation started using a lot of streaming and optimizing ways to maintain speeds on hardrives, so yes, streaming from a CD to a hardrive did have an impact on game design.
Maybe I'm not explaining this correctly. That's a data throughput issue, but there is nothing about the gameplay in UC or TLOU that wasn't possible on prior generations. So when you run into a data throughput limit, the logical design decision is to limit the data on the lower-tier version. That means reducing assets. The game plays the same, but the slower machine has less detail. That's almost exactly what we're going to see with HFW, no?

What's being claimed by some is that the game design is being held back by the PS4, which doesn't make a lot of sense. If the game plays the same, and we're talking about a data throughput limit, then the PS4 version can just use smaller assets, while the PS5 version goes gonzo with the detail. A game like R&C could be done on a PS4, but it would involve really shitty-looking worlds. The SSD crosses a threshold where that warping mechanism makes sense to implement, because you don't have to make massive compromises to implement it on the hardware. Hence, why that is something that wouldn't make sense on the PS4. However, if you're talking about a now traditional game like a UC, TLOU, or Horizon, then there's not really much that the SSD is adding, other than the ability to blowout the levels of on-screen detail. That's not a situation where you logically say that the design is being held back.

I've yet to see anyone point out what the SSD could unlock for a game like HFW, that wouldn't be possible by simply lowering the amount of data used on the PS4 version. Your analogy doesn't seem to work, as you're still talking about games that played the same across platforms, with the main improvements being graphical. I think if we dissect what the ND devs were talking about, we'd see that their streaming systems are just used to pull in more detail for the scenes, not changing the way the game plays. These things can all be accomplished with a cross-gen release, as long as there are the resources to optimize the game properly. Even then, if you prioritize the PS5 version of the game, then you shouldn't be able to say that it was held back, as it was the version with priority.

I'd like to think that if a title like R&C got greenlit to be PS5-only, because it featured gameplay elements that would be too difficult to implement on the PS4, then HFW could have also gotten the same treatment, if that was also the case. However, if the gameplay is within grasp of the PS4 at lower detail levels, then it would make logical sense to also include the console with the much-larger user base upon release. As the game supposedly began development for the PS4, it makes logical sense that the basic design didn't include anything that was beyond that machine's capabilities.

If we compare HFW to R&C, we see that the world of Horizon is a mix of past and future tech mashed together in a semi-realistic world. The technology Aloy would encounter would only allow so much use of the SSD to introduce fancy new gameplay elements. R&C, on the other hand, already took a crack at time travel, so building a dimension warping mechanic that specifically targeted the capabilities of the PS5 make more logical sense. Insomniac had the cleaner drawing board to start with. I'd bet dollars to donuts that the sequel to HFW plays very similar to the cross-gen game too, unless GG decide to introduce dimensional/planetary travel in a way that emphasizes speed, so that incurring load times on a slower machine would break immersion. I don't expect the next Uncharted to use the SSD for anything more than putting more shiny graphics on screen either.

I'm pretty sure I never got in on any of the Xbox cross-gen trolling nonsense that PS fans on this forum engaged in, so I've been consistent in how I view stuff like this. PC games run on hardware that span larger generational gaps than the PS4 and PS5, and continue to look great at the high end. I don't think PC game development is hampered by hardware in anything other than optimization. GG has fewer hardware permutations to worry about with HFW, so I think they'll be just fine.
 
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Rubim

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OK. So what should they do better with their game design with a CPU then? How do you make the new BF do more complex things?


We've had better GPU for years on the PC. And?


Yeap. Other than streaming performance of data on a disc. What else can it do for a game?


That was a part of your SSD. The two are the same.


RAM size increase. OK. What to do with all that RAM?
To answer some of your questions:

A) For example: more destructible environment, more interactions between any gear we have with the current scenario.
B) PC sadly will never be a driven factor when building games.
C) There's a couple of stuff that you have to account when building a game, you can't for example add complexity on NPC Behavior if you plan to add a few of them. Since CPU has to be used for sound / physics / calculations.
D) What to do with all that ram: Possibility to store more objects in ram would essentially give you that, more objects to interact with it. But for multi-plat we are all limited to Xbox S RAM.

But its better to hear from actual people inside the industry:
A Multiplayer Designer
@infinityward

ID Software Engineer
 

MastaKiiLA

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If we aren't talking about graphics here, then what are we talking about? Can you name any game from the PS4 era that was doing something more than the PS3/PS2 era from a gameplay perspective? Consider the Uncharted series as an example.

In a nutshell, it's extremely confusing when you guys complain about HFW being held back but not stating what the PS5 can do over the PS4 *gameplay* wise. HFW doesn't need portals like R&C, so what else?
This is pretty much my take as well. The introduction of HDDs didn't change things a whole lot. More persistent changes to game worlds was one of the expectations, due to the RW flexibility of a HDD, but that wasn't used to quite the extent that was promised. The SSD is really just a faster HDD, so any gains should be on the throughput side. R&C is clearly flexing in that area, but as far as gameplay mechanics are, not many of them have been tied to data throughput in the past. I thought most of the boasts about the PS5 SSD last year were about its ability to help feed more assets to memory, to improve visuals anyway. Now that we get the visuals in HFW, there're complaints that the game could have been more than that? This feels like manufactured drama, based on a false presumption that cross-gen games are inherently compromised.
 
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kuncol02

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OK. So what should they do better with their game design with a CPU then? How do you make the new BF do more complex things?
You really have to ask?
More NPCs on screen, better more complex AI, better physic and destruction, more players in multiplayer games.
Do you realize that PS4 CPU is in some usages slower than PS3/x360 CPUs?
We literally gone back in previous generation with interactivity and physic because how terrible that CPU was. You don't see that games like AC:Unity and JC3 were designed with much faster CPU in mind? (that's why they run so bad on consoles) You didn't saw how on consoles Crysis physics is broken in comparison to original PC version? (that's game from 2007 for gods sake!)
 

Rubim

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This is pretty much my take as well. The introduction of HDDs didn't change things a whole lot. More persistent changes to game worlds was one of the expectations, due to the RW flexibility of a HDD, but that wasn't used to quite the extent that was promised. The SSD is really just a faster HDD, so any gains should be on the throughput side. R&C is clearly flexing in that area, but as far as gameplay mechanics are, not many of them have been tied to data throughput in the past. I thought most of the boasts about the PS5 SSD last year were about its ability to help feed more assets to memory, to improve visuals anyway. Now that we get the visuals in HFW, there're complaints that the game could have been more than that? This feels like manufactured drama, based on a false presumption that cross-gen games are inherently compromised.
The main thing to talk about is: The game is conceptually done to play on the PS4 then ported over to PS5 with the improvements.

You can put as many mods you want on Skrim on PC to enhanced the graphics. The gameplay will still be made to play on PS4, all the interactions, all the loading screens to get inside a house.

Seriously, AC Unity is the best example of it all. It runs perfect on PC NOW (it has for a while), compare it with syndicate.

Syndicate runs better than unity on PS4, but at what cost?
 

dcmk7

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They are elitist because they are convinced that only a non-cross gen game will exercise the PS5's hardware properly. They completely ignore any other game out there whether it be cross-gen or from a 3rd party developer. They are stuck in their own little world where nothing else exists except a Sony 1st party game. That's why so many of them are outraged at the PC port agenda.

There is nothing wrong with cross-gen games or 3rd party games. Returnal doesn't rival anywhere near most of the 3rd party games for this generation. Demon Souls is the same game with higher resolution textures.

Lastly credibility on this site from people who will say developers are lying about their claims? Ask yourself why so many developers left this site. It wasn't because of the Xbox, Nintendo or PC fans antagonizing them. Try Sony.
Bud, people are forced out of this place by all sides.

Look at this example, clearly indicates a fanbase is enraged..

I'm coming in here for one time to make this very important note. I'm being very careful with my words when discussing these things in videos. Do you know how much shit I've put up with after it turns out Xbox is massively underperforming?! Constant threats, harassment and even shit sent to my god damn house. All over these stupid plastic boxes. These people are insane and it's absolutely draining me. Now we have the opposite in this due to 'wording' that people read into. Just stop it.

Please just take the results as is. The data is there, it's clear to see.

Back to signing off.

You also have ignorant posters who blame developers for being lazy. How exactly do people like these encourage developers to join the forum? Look at this guy for example.. loves to discredit them anyway he can.

I wonder how many of those 'concerned' developers spoke to MS about assistance with game development seeing how they are having such problems. Doesn't MS provide tech support to show devs how that can maximize the performance of their console. Twitter seems like an odd place to request help. One of the devs admitted he didn't even have a XSS|X dev kit. How credible are these complaints if you don't even have a kit?

You said I said devs were lying. This wasn't true and your strawman was refuted. Devs needing to optimize their titles to run on ANY console has been true since the dawn of programming of video games. I take a dev complaining without any commentary of efforts to fix the issue as seriously a person complaining about how hard it is to eat steak without using a knife and fork. The XSS has features to deal with its shortcomings and it also has a multi trillion dollar company available to support any dev that needs it. MS is making XSS titles too.


The XSS holding back this generation continues to be something complained about despite the fact that it continues to handle games just fine. I remember when Cyberpunk 2077 came out and that game ran horribly on every last gen console but ran fine on the XSS a console some here stated was weaker than the X1X. The XSS has the same quality CPU as the PS5 and XSX yet for some reason it's holding everything back. It is on MS to release a dev kit that allows developers to properly optimize games for all of their platforms. If a dev is having problems they should contact MS for assistance not run to Twitter to rage and fuel fanboy wars. I hope that ID guy learned his lesson.

As stated earlier the PS5 should not be affected anyway because according to the Sony fans here Sony makes the best games and those games won't be on XSS anyway. Looks like a win for everyone then. Gamers on a budget get a console that will get support for years to come and people who want higher fidelity graphics will also have a system that supports their wants too. The XSS is a perfectly capable system for the resolution and audience it is targeting.
Not a good look from anyone, but it's unfair to blame a specific fanbase.
 

scydrex

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To answer some of your questions:

A) For example: more destructible environment, more interactions between any gear we have with the current scenario.
B) PC sadly will never be a driven factor when building games.
C) There's a couple of stuff that you have to account when building a game, you can't for example add complexity on NPC Behavior if you plan to add a few of them. Since CPU has to be used for sound / physics / calculations.
D) What to do with all that ram: Possibility to store more objects in ram would essentially give you that, more objects to interact with it. But for multi-plat we are all limited to Xbox S RAM.

But its better to hear from actual people inside the industry:
A Multiplayer Designer
@infinityward

ID Software Engineer

This is taken from the GTplanet article i posted here.

Tracks and Environment
Part of the PS5’s suite of advanced capabilities comes in terms of “maps” (in this case, circuits). With the high throughput I/O, the PS5 is capable of streaming what you see directly from the SSD, rather than loading it into active memory. That opens up some major possibilities for the PS5 that, at least in terms of Gran Turismo Sport, seem impossible on PS4.

In recent years we’ve heard much about PD having licenses for or scanning some pretty big tracks: the 12.4-mile climb up Pikes Peak, or the 37.7-mile Snaefell Mountain Course. For PS5, these would be a relative doddle, but getting them into the PS4’s active memory could be just too much. Pikes Peak may be shorter than the Nurburgring, Special Stage Route X, or Circuit de la Sierra, but it is significantly more complex, and the required draw distances from 14,000ft up are pretty vast.

Again, if it can’t appear in the PS4 version, it almost certainly won’t appear in the PS5 version either. If anyone want to read it go to my post.

Physics
It almost goes without saying, but the fundamental physics model cannot be different between the two versions if they are to play together. If the underlying physics are different, fans simply won’t accept being forced to buy a PS5 to be competitive.

This means that PD simply won’t be able to exploit the PS5’s Zen 2 processor for complex physics calculations, because it will have to ensure the eight-year old Jaguar processor in the PS4 can deal with it. Segregating the player base could provide a solution, but we can’t imagine PD will exclude people from the FIA Online Championships for not having the right equipment.

That said, simulation title Assetto Corsa does manage to preserve its more accurate physics model from PC even on the base PS4. There are compromises in how the game performs in other departments that aren’t so readily accepted with a GT game though.
 
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FranXico

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The ONLY people complaining about this cross-gen shit is ----- wait for it ---- Sony warriors! Not a single fan of other platforms are complaining. That tells me a LOT about the mentality of Sony gamers (i.e. elitist and irrational) on these boards.
Your attitude towards all the fans of a specific brand, irrespective of how they interacted with you tells everyone a LOT about you.
Stop.
 

RoadHazard

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As the game supposedly began development for the PS4, it makes logical sense that the basic design didn't include anything that was beyond that machine's capabilities.

Let me put that in another way for you:

Because the game began development for the PS4, the game design doesn't include anything that is beyond that machine's capabilities.

Ergo, this being a PS4 game and not a PS5 exclusive holds it back from what it could have been.
 
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dvdvideo

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Sep 15, 2005
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Ok thanks for demonstrating you know nothing about pc and minimum spec and proving my point with your little rant, of course that troll darkmage is cheering you on too.

The baseline for RE Village is xbox1 that console that's 8 years old and out of date at the time. A PC with a ryzen 3 1200 and rf560 or gtx1050 blows both xbox1 and ps4 out of the water and the ryzen 1200 is a bag of shit.

You are a clown since you're using a game that is on these platforms
Talk to me about next gen only games Series S/X, ps5 that is also on PC then we will see what PC minimum spec looks like and compare; oh wait there isn't any yet.

You're comparing cross gen games holding back PS5 games and trying to gloat about people talking about the Series S potentially holding back next gen. The 2 are not compatible in the slightest and you're garbage ill informed about PC minimum spec doesn't back you up either.

I find it funny these Xbox trolls are always bragging that they own every system ie ps5, yet spend all day trolling for xbox.

Is this a joke post? What next gen only game? Why would we comparing to an xbox next gen only game if they don't exist? And likely won't be any?
Again, think for 2 seconds before rambling off some rude reply in bold letters.

Yes I am comparing cross gen games being held back by PS4 - it's exactly what the thread is about, are you confused? The point was if you say PS4 isn't holding back next gen, you can't say series S was. And that wasn't even taking into account PC.
But your clueless, it's like talking to a brick wall - a huge waste of time.
I don't spend all day trolling for Xbox, I correct people when they are just flat out wrong, like you in this case. I don't have a dog in the fight like you clearly do that's blinding your ability to see anything, my self esteem isn't tied to the hardware I buy.
 
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Rubim

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Let me put that in another way for you:

Because the game began development for the PS4, the game design doesn't include anything that is beyond that machine's capabilities.

Ergo, this being a PS4 game and not a PS5 exclusive holds it back from what it could have been.
Exactly.
 

mckmas8808

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What is this dev saying that other devs say is not true?

The first dev is Mark Cerny. I'll post the link to the video and timestamp it for everyone. Watch until the 11 minute mark. It's about 2 minutes and 15 seconds of explaination.


The 2nd link (I can't find it right now) is from the HZD devs explaining that they had to design the 1st game differently based on the lack of good enough hardware within the PS4. They had to building bridges in the game to connect to different towns because the HDD couldn't stream the data of those cities fast enough. So making the gamer run across a long bridge for 20-30 seconds were created to make us feel like we were traveling a long way, but the REAL reason was due to the 50 MB\s the HDD would stream the data.
 
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Is this a joke post? What next gen only game? Why would we comparing to an xbox next gen only game if they don't exist? And likely won't be any?
Again, think for 2 seconds before rambling off some rude reply in bold letters.

Yes I am comparing cross gen games being held back by PS4 - it's exactly what the thread is about, are you confused? The point was if you say PS4 isn't holding back next gen, you can't say series S was. And that wasn't even taking into account PC.
But your clueless, it's like talking to a brick wall - a huge waste of time.
I don't spend all day trolling for Xbox, I correct people when they are just flat out wrong, like you in this case. I don't have a dog in the fight like you clearly do that's blinding your ability to see anything, my self esteem isn't tied to the hardware I buy.

You obviously don’t understand English very well either given you can’t tell the difference between past and present tense.

People say the series s which is a next generation console will handicap next generation games ie 3rd party multiplats for example.

Current cross gen games on PS4 will of course hold back cross gen game on ps5 it’s not exactly a no brainier.

Again for the final time the two paragraphs are not in anyway compatible. So gloating ‘ haha see PS4 holding back games like series s’ is idiotic.

If the series s was a last gen console you might have a point, but it isn’t. And your re village example shows you have no idea what you’re talking about. You’re comparing weak pc specs to next gen consoles in a cross gen game, like wtf?
 
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How would I know when I haven't played the game yet. Simple fact is cross gen does affect game development because your limited to shit hardware. Just look at the Cerny talk about how slow HDD affected how you would develop a game World. Shit just look at FF7 remaster.
I'm asking what ideas you think are being limited? If you don't know then why are you upset? The game director said so many great ideas were included so maybe wait to see all that this sequel has to offer before saying more could have been included.