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Horizon Forbidden West game director says cross-gen development was "not limiting in any way", so many great ideas ended up being included

SSfox

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I mean he says what he has to say, and i'm not really mad at this game being cross, specially since the game started development on PS4.

The only thing to be mad of is when Hermen Hulst the PC fanboy will be excited to port the game on PC, as the PC fanboy stan that he is.
 

VFXVeteran

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Your attitude towards all the fans of a specific brand, irrespective of how they interacted with you tells everyone a LOT about you.
Stop.
Yea, always my attitude when I call out the Sony guys - yet they think there is nothing wrong with their approaches. I'm tired of being accused of the aggressor when I try to talk sense to you guys. The mods see it and all the other fans of different platforms see it too. I'm not the problem.
 

Dodkrake

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The ONLY people complaining about this cross-gen shit is ----- wait for it ---- Sony warriors! Not a single fan of other platforms are complaining. That tells me a LOT about the mentality of Sony gamers (i.e. elitist and irrational) on these boards.

I'm still waiting for the PC version for HZD that looks better than Forbidden West. Is it coming with the PS5 Pro?
 
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VFXVeteran

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I'm still waiting for the PC version for HZD that looks better than Forbidden West. Is it coming with the PS5 Pro?
I've pointed out the differences with HZD on the PC and HFW on PS5. Go look it up.
 

Dodkrake

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I've pointed out the differences with HZD on the PC and HFW on PS5. Go look it up.

You can point all the differences you want mate, it still doesn't look better. Unless you're one of these

 

Tomeru

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The first dev is Mark Cerny. I'll post the link to the video and timestamp it for everyone. Watch until the 11 minute mark. It's about 2 minutes and 15 seconds of explaination.


The 2nd link (I can't find it right now) is from the HZD devs explaining that they had to design the 1st game differently based on the lack of good enough hardware within the PS4. They had to building bridges in the game to connect to different towns because the HDD couldn't stream the data of those cities fast enough. So making the gamer run across a long bridge for 20-30 seconds were created to make us feel like we were traveling a long way, but the REAL reason was due to the 50 MB\s the HDD would stream the data.
Just like you assumed my take on next gen hardware, you assume that what they had in mind for HFW based on some general info from MC, and from remarks about the 1st game from the devs - that led you to believe that when they say that the ps4 didnt hold back anything they wanted to do regarding HFW - they lie?

Really? I mean really really?

If this was a destiny type situation where there were many promises that werent kept I'd say you have a case. But HZD is a masterful game on almost all fronts, and there is no indication that HFW wont be.
 

dvdvideo

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You obviously don’t understand English very well either given you can’t tell the difference between past and present tense.

People say the series s which is a next generation console will handicap next generation games ie 3rd party multiplats for example.

Current cross gen games on PS4 will of course hold back cross gen game on ps5 it’s not exactly a no brainier.

Again for the final time the two paragraphs are not in anyway compatible. So gloating ‘ haha see PS4 holding back games like series s’ is idiotic.

If the series s was a last gen console you might have a point, but it isn’t. And your re village example shows you have no idea what you’re talking about. You’re comparing weak pc specs to next gen consoles in a cross gen game, like wtf?

I get it just fine, you seem lost.

The fact that you don't understand how the two are linked, and how low end pc development cripple's them even more, is the baffling part.
Your dismissal of minimum pc specs doesn't make them go away. (and yes Villiage is a good example of what is happening right now terms of cross platform games - as you can clearly see that series S is not the low denominator, it's PC and Xbox/PS4) And guess what, now is considered next gen.
You keep talking about some magical first party game that doesn't exist yet on Xbox, and even if it did, and was next gen/pc only, minimum PC specs would still be lower than series S. Is that clear enough for you now?
The whole point was those who ran into threads stating over and over how Series S was crippling next gen, despite every xbox gaming being developed for PC, and then meanwhile we have the bulk of Sony's first party designed for PS4. (and those same people still saying series S is crippling next gen)
You can't have it both ways, if Sony developing 3 or 4 years into this gen is not crippling next gen, plus PC development ramping up for Sony as well, then neither is the far more powerful Series S.
 
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DiscoDave

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May 22, 2021
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I'm asking what ideas you think are being limited? If you don't know then why are you upset? The game director said so many great ideas were included so maybe wait to see all that this sequel has to offer before saying more could have been included.
How am I upset exactly by just stating facts. I can wait and see but it won't change the fact that some ideas may have been dropped due to it being on last gen aswell. Not really sure what point your trying to make, should we not expect the best next gen has to offer without having to be restrained by last gen game design.
 

Keihart

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Maybe I'm not explaining this correctly. That's a data throughput issue, but there is nothing about the gameplay in UC or TLOU that wasn't possible on prior generations. So when you run into a data throughput limit, the logical design decision is to limit the data on the lower-tier version. That means reducing assets. The game plays the same, but the slower machine has less detail. That's almost exactly what we're going to see with HFW, no?

What's being claimed by some is that the game design is being held back by the PS4, which doesn't make a lot of sense. If the game plays the same, and we're talking about a data throughput limit, then the PS4 version can just use smaller assets, while the PS5 version goes gonzo with the detail. A game like R&C could be done on a PS4, but it would involve really shitty-looking worlds. The SSD crosses a threshold where that warping mechanism makes sense to implement, because you don't have to make massive compromises to implement it on the hardware. Hence, why that is something that wouldn't make sense on the PS4. However, if you're talking about a now traditional game like a UC, TLOU, or Horizon, then there's not really much that the SSD is adding, other than the ability to blowout the levels of on-screen detail. That's not a situation where you logically say that the design is being held back.

I've yet to see anyone point out what the SSD could unlock for a game like HFW, that wouldn't be possible by simply lowering the amount of data used on the PS4 version. Your analogy doesn't seem to work, as you're still talking about games that played the same across platforms, with the main improvements being graphical. I think if we dissect what the ND devs were talking about, we'd see that their streaming systems are just used to pull in more detail for the scenes, not changing the way the game plays. These things can all be accomplished with a cross-gen release, as long as there are the resources to optimize the game properly. Even then, if you prioritize the PS5 version of the game, then you shouldn't be able to say that it was held back, as it was the version with priority.

I'd like to think that if a title like R&C got greenlit to be PS5-only, because it featured gameplay elements that would be too difficult to implement on the PS4, then HFW could have also gotten the same treatment, if that was also the case. However, if the gameplay is within grasp of the PS4 at lower detail levels, then it would make logical sense to also include the console with the much-larger user base upon release. As the game supposedly began development for the PS4, it makes logical sense that the basic design didn't include anything that was beyond that machine's capabilities.

If we compare HFW to R&C, we see that the world of Horizon is a mix of past and future tech mashed together in a semi-realistic world. The technology Aloy would encounter would only allow so much use of the SSD to introduce fancy new gameplay elements. R&C, on the other hand, already took a crack at time travel, so building a dimension warping mechanic that specifically targeted the capabilities of the PS5 make more logical sense. Insomniac had the cleaner drawing board to start with. I'd bet dollars to donuts that the sequel to HFW plays very similar to the cross-gen game too, unless GG decide to introduce dimensional/planetary travel in a way that emphasizes speed, so that incurring load times on a slower machine would break immersion. I don't expect the next Uncharted to use the SSD for anything more than putting more shiny graphics on screen either.

I'm pretty sure I never got in on any of the Xbox cross-gen trolling nonsense that PS fans on this forum engaged in, so I've been consistent in how I view stuff like this. PC games run on hardware that span larger generational gaps than the PS4 and PS5, and continue to look great at the high end. I don't think PC game development is hampered by hardware in anything other than optimization. GG has fewer hardware permutations to worry about with HFW, so I think they'll be just fine.
There are very clear examples of what can mean lowering data, for example, animations, physics and ai rutines are a very good example, this is all stuff that keeps piling off during gameplay and store in ram. This are also things that been limited in games before because of the hardware. You can not get a shittier looking version of DMCV running on PS2 or PS3 without rebuilding assets, the game features way too many move sets and weapons for the characters and that is also why legendary dark night doesn't exists on the base versions of the new games, which is a mode with increased enemies.

You are either pretending to not get it or are forgetting how not planned downports look and play when they are not planned and launch either way in a previous generation, if the current generation does the real jump then the downported game becomes basically a new game so nobody does it anymore, it's way easier to target the lower spec and they prettier it up.
 

DarkMage619

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Bud, people are forced out of this place by all sides.

Look at this example, clearly indicates a fanbase is enraged..



You also have ignorant posters who blame developers for being lazy. How exactly do people like these encourage developers to join the forum? Look at this guy for example.. loves to discredit them anyway he can.







Not a good look from anyone, but it's unfair to blame a specific fanbase.
Wow very nice taking my comments out of context AND implying I called a developers lazy where in even in the quotes you used I NEVER called anyone lazy. I made that point repeatedly. It's very cute. It is obvious that VFXVeteran VFXVeteran is talking about the absolutely rabid and I might add majority in the Sony fans here who ran off anyone who didn't agree that Sony is the best in all things. Look at how the Sony fans are talking to another industry professional. It's sad.

My, correctly I might add, pointing out that the certain developers complaining about a system while not using the features it has to deal with the issues they are complaining about is silly. Almost as silly as you digging through old posts to make a point that has nothing to do with this current discussion. Almost.

On topic, what I find most interesting is that the complaints about Horizon FW and it being held back when it is in fact a PS4 game. Was the Last of Us held back by being on the PS3? Was Super Mario Brothers held back by being on the Nintendo? Using this logic the new Ratchet is being held back by not being on the PS6. There is always new and more powerful hardware but at some point a baseline is chosen and more powerful hardware that comes out later can't be used to go back and fundamentally alter that game.

The PS5 is more powerful than the PS4 but perhaps it wasn't complete enough in its development for it to be used as a baseline for the Horizon game, same can be said about the new God of War game too. What has been shown is that almost any game can be scaled either up or down to work on a variety of hardware as long as you are willing to accept the changes needed to make those games work. Doom being on the Switch and high end PCs shows this well.

The God and Horizon games haven't even come out yet and people are complaining. Horizon looked really good too and still people are complaining. Maybe we should let the games come out and then we can pick it apart. It's almost like people don't just enjoy nice games.
 
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dcmk7

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Wow very nice taking my comments out of context AND implying I called a developers lazy where in even in the quotes you used I NEVER called anyone lazy. I made that point repeatedly. It's very cute. It is obvious that VFXVeteran VFXVeteran is talking about the absolutely rabid and I might add majority in the Sony fans here who ran off anyone who didn't agree that Sony is the best in all things. Look at how the Sony fans are talking to another industry professional. It's sad.

My, correctly I might add, pointing out that the certain developers complaining about a system while not using the features it has to deal with the issues they are complaining about is silly. Almost as silly as you digging through old posts to make a point that has nothing to do with this current discussion. Almost.

On topic, what I find most interesting is that the complaints about Horizon FW and it being held back when it is in fact a PS4 game. Was the Last of Us held back by being on the PS3? Was Super Mario Brothers held back by being on the Nintendo. Using this logic the new Ratchet is being held back by not being on the PS6. There is always new and more powerful hardware but at some point a baseline is chosen and more powerful hardware that comes out later can't be used to go back and fundamentally alter that game.

The PS5 is more powerful than the PS4 but perhaps it wasn't complete enough in its development for it to be used as a baseline for the Horizon game, same can be said about the new God of War game too. What has been shown is that almost any game can be scaled either up or down to work on a variety of hardware as long as you are willing to accept the changes needed to make those games work. Doom being on the Switch and high end PCs shows this well. The God and Horizon games haven't even come out yet and people are complaining. Horizon looked really good too and still people are complaining. Maybe we should let the games come out and then we can pick it apart. It's almost like people don't just enjoy nice games.
Your posts speak for themselves.

It's absurd to have a go at developers just because they have an opinion contrary to you.
 

scydrex

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Aug 10, 2017
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Wow very nice taking my comments out of context AND implying I called a developers lazy where in even in the quotes you used I NEVER called anyone lazy. I made that point repeatedly. It's very cute. It is obvious that VFXVeteran VFXVeteran is talking about the absolutely rabid and I might add majority in the Sony fans here who ran off anyone who didn't agree that Sony is the best in all things. Look at how the Sony fans are talking to another industry professional. It's sad.

My, correctly I might add, pointing out that the certain developers complaining about a system while not using the features it has to deal with the issues they are complaining about is silly. Almost as silly as you digging through old posts to make a point that has nothing to do with this current discussion. Almost.

On topic, what I find most interesting is that the complaints about Horizon FW and it being held back when it is in fact a PS4 game. Was the Last of Us held back by being on the PS3? Was Super Mario Brothers held back by being on the Nintendo? Using this logic the new Ratchet is being held back by not being on the PS6. There is always new and more powerful hardware but at some point a baseline is chosen and more powerful hardware that comes out later can't be used to go back and fundamentally alter that game.

The PS5 is more powerful than the PS4 but perhaps it wasn't complete enough in its development for it to be used as a baseline for the Horizon game, same can be said about the new God of War game too. What has been shown is that almost any game can be scaled either up or down to work on a variety of hardware as long as you are willing to accept the changes needed to make those games work. Doom being on the Switch and high end PCs shows this well.

The God and Horizon games haven't even come out yet and people are complaining. Horizon looked really good too and still people are complaining. Maybe we should let the games come out and then we can pick it apart. It's almost like people don't just enjoy nice games.

You are only taking in consideration graphics that is not all of it. Look for example Far Cry 2 vs Far Cry 5 video in YouTube. Far Cry 5 is more pretty and have better graphics but is worse in all other aspects like physics to name one.
 
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I get it just fine, you seem lost.

The fact that you don't understand how the two are linked, and how low end pc development cripple's them even more, is the baffling part.
Your dismissal of minimum pc specs doesn't make them go away. (and yes Villiage is a good example of what is happening right now terms of cross platform games - as you can clearly see that series S is not the low denominator, it's PC and Xbox/PS4) And guess what, now is considered next gen.
You keep talking about some magical first party game that doesn't exist yet on Xbox, and even if it did, and was next gen/pc only, minimum PC specs would still be lower than series S. Is that clear enough for you now?
The whole point was those who ran into threads stating over and over how Series S was crippling next gen, despite every xbox gaming being developed for PC, and then meanwhile we have the bulk of Sony's first party designed for PS4. (and those same people still saying series S is crippling next gen)
You can't have it both ways, if Sony developing 3 or 4 years into this gen is not crippling next gen, plus PC development ramping up for Sony as well, then neither is the far more powerful Series S.

You have a hard time understanding the difference between

Will and was.

People said the series s will hold next gen back. Since there’s no real Xbox next gen exclusives (let any new exclusives currently) or next gen only 3rd party games there’s no way of really knowing besides devs statements.

You’re arguments using ‘was’ are implying there’s been all these next gen only games which have proven that the series s isn’t actually holding next gen back which there isn’t so we honestly don’t know yet. With that said it shows how stupid you are to gloat over some fabricated victory because the PS4 is holding some ps5 games
Back.
Congratulations on your victory in your mind.

Stop talking about pc minimum specs in cross gen games because those minimum specs on pc make those games look and run better than base PS4/xbox1. Unless there’s some next gen only games being held back by pc then talk... otherwise you must be the only clown on here arguing pc holds back games.
 

SlimySnake

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Feb 5, 2013
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There are very clear examples of what can mean lowering data, for example, animations, physics and ai rutines are a very good example, this is all stuff that keeps piling off during gameplay and store in ram. This are also things that been limited in games before because of the hardware. You can not get a shittier looking version of DMCV running on PS2 or PS3 without rebuilding assets, the game features way too many move sets and weapons for the characters and that is also why legendary dark night doesn't exists on the base versions of the new games, which is a mode with increased enemies.

You are either pretending to not get it or are forgetting how not planned downports look and play when they are not planned and launch either way in a previous generation, if the current generation does the real jump then the downported game becomes basically a new game so nobody does it anymore, it's way easier to target the lower spec and they prettier it up.
yep. A good example of downporting is CoD Advanced Warfare in 2014. A year after launch, they went all in on PS4 and X1 taking full advantage of the 16x increase in RAM. Higher quality textures increased the VRAM usage on PCs so high I was not able to run it on my GTX 570 which was on par with the AMD 7850 back then. (the 1.7 tflops PS4 equivalent) Not because my GPU wasn't powerful enough but because the GTX 570 only had 1.3 GB of VRAM and the game literally defaulted all of my settings to lowest and wouldnt even let me change any of the graphics settings.

I ended up playing the free trial in a game that looked worse than any PS3 era CoD game. Blurry vaseline covered crap because they did not bother porting the downported version they had for PS360. PC users were just told to upgrade their cards.

I still have that PC in the basement somewhere. I might hook it up and run some of the newer games I bought on steam this gen. I would love to see how it manages games like metro exodus, control, and anthem.
 

CamHostage

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Sep 30, 2004
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It stands to reason that making big changes specific to PS5 would greatly effect balancing.
(Camhostage, you left "empathy"? Do you disagree?)

Yeah, I agree, things could possibly have been different if these cross-gen games had been really dialed in on one specific platform.

I'd like to be clear on my take on all this too: I really, really wish we had these "true next-gen" games and that we didn't need to have the argument, that there were games that were so clearly taking advantage of the power of PS5 (and XbX/S, for that matter) that we had the full picture already of what this next-gen is. Launch titles in the past (including all four PlayStations) have set new benchmarks, and although later games managed to blow them away, we never had as rough an argument in determining if something was "next-gen enough".

On the other hand...

The state of video game development is pretty clear in the reality of what's been launched and what's been announced. This is as good as it gets right now. (Which is pretty f**ing good, IMO, but sure, better would be even better.)

Engines are mature, UE5 is not done, same with a lot of new physics systems and ML-assisted mechanical concepts, it's all still new and experimental, and technology is advancing more by AI and simulation integration than the past battles of # of polygons or X amount of enemies on screen. Unlike in the past, where a game developer asking the question of, "What would I need to execute this game concept?", the answer was to totally rewrite the engine, now they are more and more finding the answers are within the furthering of their own existing technology systems. Decima isn't garbage just because it was the PS4 engine; it will probably continue to be a leading PS5 engine, and it's built to grow and evolve for some time to come.

You can look at Killzone 3 versus Killzone Shadowfall, from PS3 to PS4. KZ Shadowfall was one of those "Whoa, next-gen!!" games that blew away the already-impressive KZ2/3 graphics. So, how'd they do it. They wrote a new engine, for this and for their next project (which would become Horizon.) The results speak for themselves, but listed to Michał Drobot talk about the "why" of why they built the new engine: it's about achieving the technical needs of the project. They wanted models to physically react to light so they don't have to bake every model and character for different stages, they wanted to speed up asset creation so they could fill the world with a depth of objects, they want to push the draw distance to several KM so there's a grander sense of scope and civilization. The power was pushed because they had reached the end of the road.

(full clip here)

Compare that Horizon 2 conversations, which have been very limited so far obviously, but if you follow some of the SIGGRAPH or GDC post-morts on Horizon 1, they talk about wanting to improve the combat depth, adding a greater challenge layer, adjust the economy/inventory system for simple but effective collecting, making human-against-human combat as tactical as robot fighting for more story depth in encounters, about improving the weather system to have the skies reflect the dangers of the world with swirling clouds and tumultuous storms... these are all things that they have accomplished with Horizon Forbidden West, AND it still can run on PlayStation 4 PLUS it looks great and has amazing technical achievements on PS5. They didn't need to rewrite everything to get there, they needed to push their current technology to new heights.

Are there things that they could use PS5 hardware for that's never been done on PS4-level hardware? I assume so. It's next-gen hardware. But I'm not seeing it yet in the games that are made for the next-generation hardware, either exclusively or cross-gen (and I'd argue that the cross-gen have been a little ahead, at least until Ratchet comes out.) Developers are still getting a handle on the hardware, and even if they had totally rewritten their engine to achieve something beyond possibilities (the closest example of that we have is UE5, but A. that's not a total rewrite, and B. that's still not production-ready this year,) it is taking time to bring technology to market that really maximizes these next-gen consoles.

Then there's concepts like flight that really suffer if your engine is already strapped for resources. (That said, I have a feeling Horizon FW does have flight as that's been part of the tease and a demand from users, plus Horizon 1 even let you cheat-fly.) They're going to get busted if HWF doesn't have flight, even though "not limiting" and not accomplishing flight are not necessarily the same thing... because flight can be a pain in the ass in game design and I could imagine it not being high on the want-list aside from gamers demanding it. (Being able to just fly wherever you want, especially in an open-world game, is disastrous to the encounter mechanics and level design/challenge, plus it's often not that fun unless the game is made only for flight; R&C Rift Apart has combat flight but it's like one stage and it is so far nobody's favorite part of the game. But the demand is so high for flying mounts that I'm sure they've made attempts at ways of doing it, if it's not already in the game.. right now Guerrilla is in "cannot confirm or deny" status regarding Horizon Forbidden West flight.) Similarly, having dino creatures follow you across the map, that's due to a memory challenge, but it's also just sensible game design, because players want to know what encounters will happen when and also programming a flatlander creature for mountainous areas is again a pain in the neck to write. They could choose to push it, and PS5 would let them while PS4 would struggle against them on it, or they could go with what works and put effort into better needs of the project. Could they have made flight or anywhere-encounters a PS5-exclusive feature? Maybe, would have been weird, but already there are known cuts to the PS4 version. And I guess gamers who aren't in on how productions work wouldn't believe this, but sometimes limitations help make the game better because somebody takes that as a challenge to break, or they help dial in on exactly what the project managers really care about for the product. There's stories about how designers had to rework a game for the Vita or now Switch version of a game, and how doing the hard work of porting down helped optimize the engine well enough that they could bring some improvements upstream in later releases or patches of the main product. Making Spider-Man on PS4 was critical for Insomniac being able to get two PS5 games out in the launch year of PS5 (including one exclusive that really exploits the new hardware's SSD technology) even though PS5's overwhelming power should have made PS4 development a distant memory.

My point is, this is the Horizon we were going to get in 2021, cross-gen or otherwise. Is it a bummer for fans of the Horizon and God of War franchises, that they get early games instead of the developers being given some extra years to rewrite the engine and make the sequels of everybody's dreams? We'll see when we play them, I guess. (I'm personally pretty danged happy with what I'm seeing of Horizon FW... even though I do wish her hair stayed wet and the physics debris didn't go away.) But this generation is very much about doing the work and making a product so you can make a better product down the line, be it in future sequels or patch improvements to the running game. Some developers are getting up to speed with remasters, some are working on cross-gen, some are doing their first generation of work all on the next-gen console, some might be working on "true next-gen" technology like UE5 brings (we'll hopefully see some of that during E3 week coming up.) You've got to make the game some time.

...I think Guerrilla penned themselves in to the reality of the base PS4 - which means the director's statement doesn't mean what people want it to mean: they were absolutely limited by the PS4, they were simply smart enough to plan for it to ensure they did not exceed those limitations. To me, saying "cross-gen development was not limiting in any way" automatically becomes untrue in this situation.

What's your perspective on this?

(I've been meaning to respond to this, I think your breakdown of the statement was fair, but see above.)
 
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Urban

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May 20, 2021
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It doesn't matter, people will be mad anyway. Personally. I think the results speak for themselves.
You know the thing is: When Cerny made the technical speech about the PS5 architecture, he said that the Developers need to think out of the box because the new technic that they are using(ssd speed etc) made the old gamedesign obsolete. When you now get a PS4 game and push the visuals to a PS5 Game(dont get me wrong. This game looks insane and i want it now!) than you just build a house on a old ground. Im still hyped about the game but i dont buy it, that this crossgen delevopment doesnt hold the Next Gen version back.
 

Rubim

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May 24, 2011
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I get it just fine, you seem lost.

The fact that you don't understand how the two are linked, and how low end pc development cripple's them even more, is the baffling part.
Your dismissal of minimum pc specs doesn't make them go away. (and yes Villiage is a good example of what is happening right now terms of cross platform games - as you can clearly see that series S is not the low denominator, it's PC and Xbox/PS4) And guess what, now is considered next gen.
You keep talking about some magical first party game that doesn't exist yet on Xbox, and even if it did, and was next gen/pc only, minimum PC specs would still be lower than series S. Is that clear enough for you now?
The whole point was those who ran into threads stating over and over how Series S was crippling next gen, despite every xbox gaming being developed for PC, and then meanwhile we have the bulk of Sony's first party designed for PS4. (and those same people still saying series S is crippling next gen)
You can't have it both ways, if Sony developing 3 or 4 years into this gen is not crippling next gen, plus PC development ramping up for Sony as well, then neither is the far more powerful Series S.
PC will never be a denominator when making games.

PC can't lead nor hinder the industry, we lack the numbers.
 

synce

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Kinda makes you wonder what's the point of PS5 then, if PS4 isn't limiting Sony's own devs.
 

dvdvideo

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Sep 15, 2005
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You have a hard time understanding the difference between

Will and was.

People said the series s will hold next gen back. Since there’s no real Xbox next gen exclusives (let any new exclusives currently) or next gen only 3rd party games there’s no way of really knowing besides devs statements.

You’re arguments using ‘was’ are implying there’s been all these next gen only games which have proven that the series s isn’t actually holding next gen back which there isn’t so we honestly don’t know yet. With that said it shows how stupid you are to gloat over some fabricated victory because the PS4 is holding some ps5 games
Back.
Congratulations on your victory in your mind.

Stop talking about pc minimum specs in cross gen games because those minimum specs on pc make those games look and run better than base PS4/xbox1. Unless there’s some next gen only games being held back by pc then talk... otherwise you must be the only clown on here arguing pc holds back games.

I don't think you understood anything that was said.

We are in next gen. We have seen multiplatform next gen games. Who cares if we have seen xbox exclusives, we can get a very good idea of what the machine can do both from the games it has played, and the specs. Your sitting in denial saying we have no idea does not make it so.

There is no fabricated victory of anything, your words not mine. I take the position that neither Series S or PC actually ruin next gen. (nor PS4 for that matter) It was just double faced for people to say series S was ruining anything with multigen PS4, Xbox one, and PC still a thing.

I don't think PC actually holds back games, but those who say series S holds back games must also conclude that PC does the same - since in both cases a game is being built for a lower spec than optimum. (S being actually easier to program for than a low end PC, and will be for years) Does that make it more clear?
 
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Matsuchezz

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I think the game looks stellar, if Insomniac had room to improve on what was shown on State of Play to the final game, I am confident Guerilla will also improve a lot on what we have seen so far. Being cross gen or not. Guerilla is a tech powerhouse and they will deliver the goods. As a final end user i really do not care if they are held back or not by PS4.
I would be worried if the developer was 343i when they showed Halo infinite on PC and the presentation was lackluster for a PC demo which by definition would have been the very best version of the game. I do not want to imagine what the HI version looks like on the base xbox one. If craig looked like ass on PC.
oh no toilet GIF by Poo~Pourri
 
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mckmas8808

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Just like you assumed my take on next gen hardware, you assume that what they had in mind for HFW based on some general info from MC, and from remarks about the 1st game from the devs - that led you to believe that when they say that the ps4 didnt hold back anything they wanted to do regarding HFW - they lie?

Really? I mean really really?

If this was a destiny type situation where there were many promises that werent kept I'd say you have a case. But HZD is a masterful game on almost all fronts, and there is no indication that HFW wont be.

I think you missed most of my post in this thread. I said he's either lying or he's being sneaky with marketing speak.
 

DarkMage619

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You are only taking in consideration graphics that is not all of it. Look for example Far Cry 2 vs Far Cry 5 video in YouTube. Far Cry 5 is more pretty and have better graphics but is worse in all other aspects like physics to name one.
Horizon and God of War are both games made on the PS4 though. We have no evidence that the PS5 was complete enough to use a baseline for those games. Besides graphics are pretty darn important when talking about video games. Look at the backlash Halo Infinite got just because of its looks. If Horizon and God look and run amazing on the PS5 no one will care about the platform it was originally developed for. The whole notion of being held back is pretty silly. It's all hypotheticals. Let's see what the finished product looks like shall we.
 

Rubim

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Horizon and God of War are both games made on the PS4 though. We have no evidence that the PS5 was complete enough to use a baseline for those games. Besides graphics are pretty darn important when talking about video games. Look at the backlash Halo Infinite got just because of its looks. If Horizon and God look and run amazing on the PS5 no one will care about the platform it was originally developed for. The whole notion of being held back is pretty silly. It's all hypotheticals. Let's see what the finished product looks like shall we.
Hypotheticals?

The game has to work on a hardware from 2013, how's hypothetical to think that the gameplay and all the features have been made with that in mind on the first place?

There's nothing wrong on making a game for PS4 then buffing up the graphics, the main problem is lying about saying that it does not compromise the game as a whole.

Even Naughty Dog said something about how free it would be to develop for PS5 (And that was after TLOU 2). What compromises they had to do to hide the loading screens for example.
 
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How am I upset exactly by just stating facts. I can wait and see but it won't change the fact that some ideas may have been dropped due to it being on last gen aswell. Not really sure what point your trying to make, should we not expect the best next gen has to offer without having to be restrained by last gen game design.
That's fair. But I think when the game releases and especially if it ends up being a good exclusive that people won't really think about what could have been. The best that next-gen has to offer probably won't arrive until 2023.
 
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mckmas8808

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That's fair. But I think when the game releases and especially if it ends up being a good exclusive that people won't really think about what could have been. The best that next-gen has to offer probably won't arrive until 2023.

Nah....2022. We'll start seeing it then. Normally it takes about 1-2 years every generation.
 
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Wow very nice taking my comments out of context AND implying I called a developers lazy where in even in the quotes you used I NEVER called anyone lazy. I made that point repeatedly. It's very cute. It is obvious that VFXVeteran VFXVeteran is talking about the absolutely rabid and I might add majority in the Sony fans here who ran off anyone who didn't agree that Sony is the best in all things. Look at how the Sony fans are talking to another industry professional. It's sad.

My, correctly I might add, pointing out that the certain developers complaining about a system while not using the features it has to deal with the issues they are complaining about is silly. Almost as silly as you digging through old posts to make a point that has nothing to do with this current discussion. Almost.

On topic, what I find most interesting is that the complaints about Horizon FW and it being held back when it is in fact a PS4 game. Was the Last of Us held back by being on the PS3? Was Super Mario Brothers held back by being on the Nintendo? Using this logic the new Ratchet is being held back by not being on the PS6. There is always new and more powerful hardware but at some point a baseline is chosen and more powerful hardware that comes out later can't be used to go back and fundamentally alter that game.

The PS5 is more powerful than the PS4 but perhaps it wasn't complete enough in its development for it to be used as a baseline for the Horizon game, same can be said about the new God of War game too. What has been shown is that almost any game can be scaled either up or down to work on a variety of hardware as long as you are willing to accept the changes needed to make those games work. Doom being on the Switch and high end PCs shows this well.

The God and Horizon games haven't even come out yet and people are complaining. Horizon looked really good too and still people are complaining. Maybe we should let the games come out and then we can pick it apart. It's almost like people don't just enjoy nice games.
Christ man.

When are people just going to enjoy the fucking games for what they are. Cross-gen, next gen, old gen, multi-gen, why give a fuck? Like seriously. Just either play the fucking games or don't but don't come here to whine about it.

This place is full of sensitive little bitches and I'm talking to both Xbox and PS camp. E3 is around the corner yet this forum is still sad as shit.

CHRIST!
 
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Haggard

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those who say series S holds back games must also conclude that PC does the same - since in both cases a game is being built for a lower spec than optimum.
Since the PC generally isn't the development target and just gets ports your logic simply falls apart....
The lowest common denominator for game development will be the series s this gen.
 
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dvdvideo

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Since the PC generally isn't the development target and just gets ports your logic simply falls apart....

That's really not true, the PC assets for something like Doom or something like Cyberpunk are far superior to the "low end" development targets of PS4 or Xbox one. It's simply not true when people say it's built entirely for the lowest denominator, if that were true there would never be 4k assets, or "ultra" modes, as the game would have been built for lower specs from day one. They are building it with the higher specs in mind, and downscaling it or taking things away as they go. Of course they are still keeping in mind overall scale, scenes, etc to some degree, but it's not to a degree that keeps us all in tunnels or anything at this point.
 
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Shmunter

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You're saturating one aspect of it that way, leaving other parts severely underutilized.

Yes, so why are you bringing that up? I'm talking about what an SSD could bring to an open world game, not a flight sim.

You should go watch Insomniac's GDC talk on what they had to do to make Spider-Man even function on the PS4 with its slow HDD, and all the data transfer limitations they had to find workarounds for. Then come back to me and tell me that fast flying (or just faster movement in general) in an even more detailed game could work just fine with an HDD. You don't seem to really understand what I'm trying to explain to you, maybe they can.
He’s not the sharpest tool in the shed. Constantly conflates GPU processing with memory despite it being explained to him over and over. Never mind posters, even technical details presented by Cerney or Naughty dog are too high a concept to grasp. Beyond Embarrassing, you may as well be talking to a 9yo.
 

Haggard

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That's really not true, the PC assets for something like Doom or something like Cyberpunk are far superior to the "low end" development targets of PS4 or Xbox one. It's simply not true when people say it's built entirely for the lowest denominator, if that were true there would never be 4k assets, or "ultra" modes, as the game would have been built for lower specs from day one. They are building it with the higher specs in mind, and downscaling it or taking things away as they go. Of course they are still keeping in mind overall scale, scenes, etc to some degree, but it's not to a degree that keeps us all in tunnels or anything at this point.
Your point was that people have to keep the PC in mind as the lowest common denominator and that is simply nonsense.... That's the series s' job.
 
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scydrex

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Horizon and God of War are both games made on the PS4 though. We have no evidence that the PS5 was complete enough to use a baseline for those games. Besides graphics are pretty darn important when talking about video games. Look at the backlash Halo Infinite got just because of its looks. If Horizon and God look and run amazing on the PS5 no one will care about the platform it was originally developed for. The whole notion of being held back is pretty silly. It's all hypotheticals. Let's see what the finished product looks like shall we.

I'm not saying graphics is not important but there is more to a game than graphics. If you see the video Far Cry 2 vs 5 don't remember which one you will see what I'm talking about. The games have to look good of course but there other things than that.
 
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Julius Ibidus

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Christ man.

When are people just going to enjoy the fucking games for what they are. Cross-gen, next gen, old gen, multi-gen, why give a fuck? Like seriously. Just either play the fucking games or don't but don't come here to whine about it.

This place is full of sensitive little bitches and I'm talking to both Xbox and PS camp. E3 is around the corner yet this forum is still sad as shit.

CHRIST!

 

DarkMage619

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Hypotheticals?

The game has to work on a hardware from 2013, how's hypothetical to think that the gameplay and all the features have been made with that in mind on the first place?

There's nothing wrong on making a game for PS4 then buffing up the graphics, the main problem is lying about saying that it does not compromise the game as a whole.

Even Naughty Dog said something about how free it would be to develop for PS5 (And that was after TLOU 2). What compromises they had to do to hide the loading screens for example.
Compromised in comparison to what? The game was designed for the PS4. It's gameplay elements had the PS4 in mind. The PS5 was not an option for its design because it wasn't designed with the PS5 in mind. Thankfully the PS5 CAN be used to increase the framerate, add 3d audio, load the game faster, use the Dual Sense, and incredibly important for a video game, improve the resolution and graphics. It absolutely is a hypothetical to talk about how the game would be if it was designed from the ground up on the PS5 because that wasn't the case with regard to this title.
 

Rubim

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Compromised in comparison to what? The game was designed for the PS4. It's gameplay elements had the PS4 in mind. The PS5 was not an option for its design because it wasn't designed with the PS5 in mind. Thankfully the PS5 CAN be used to increase the framerate, add 3d audio, load the game faster, use the Dual Sense, and incredibly important for a video game, improve the resolution and graphics. It absolutely is a hypothetical to talk about how the game would be if it was designed from the ground up on the PS5 because that wasn't the case with regard to this title.
Yes, you're right. It was developed for ps4.

But saying cross-play development had 0 impacts is the main problem of all this. The wording of all that is a bit weird.

What they should've said is exactly what you´re telling me: Its a PS4 game with improved graphics on PS5.
 
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dvdvideo

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Your point was that people have to keep the PC in mind as the lowest common denominator and that is simply nonsense.... That's the series s' job.
Then you clearly don't understand what's inside hardware wise in the series S.
Go ahead and compare the power of a low end min spec pc and compare, its less than half the power on the road vs a series s.
 
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ZehDon

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If what you believe is true and you think GG wouldn't out themselves, then the better approach is to say nothing about it. Let the people assume all they want. And yet, that's not what they did...
Saying "nothing" is not possible - and this feels like a silly expectation on your part. Do you really expect a first party console developer to go radio silent on their big-budget big-ticket sequel that's among the first next-gen releases for their platform holder? That simply does not make sense. It also doesn't facilitate the need to market their game, which was the point I made in my previous post. They need to talk about their game to sell it. H:FW was a headliner of the PS5 reveal - it's a first party exclusive. Its trailer sparked lots of discussions about next-gen graphics. Now that the game has been confirmed as cross-gen, gamers are going to ask "Should people without PS5's even bother picking up the inferior PS4 version?" Their need to market their game and make that cross-gen development worthwhile in terms of sales numbers demands an answer, whether they want to talk about it or not. They have to convince PS4 owners its worth Sony's asking price. What you're suggesting simply doesn't align to the realities of this situation.

... This is exactly what I know... [they] have planned from the beginning what the future scope of sequels would look like...
Then, as per my original post, the statement from the director becomes immediately untrue. That's my entire point. I can see in thread that people want to interpret the director's statement as "we didn't run into any surprise limitations that requires drastic cuts to the PS4 version". Which of course they didn't; Guerrilla Games didn't get to be the studio they are by making technical mistakes of that magnitude. Rather, it's evident that Guerrilla Games deliberately limited their sequel to ensure it could run on the base PS4... which, as I said, makes the director's statement inherently untrue. Suggesting that the developer limiting their game by choice means that the PS4 is "not limiting in any way" feels disingenuous to me.
 
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MastaKiiLA

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There are very clear examples of what can mean lowering data, for example, animations, physics and ai rutines are a very good example, this is all stuff that keeps piling off during gameplay and store in ram. This are also things that been limited in games before because of the hardware. You can not get a shittier looking version of DMCV running on PS2 or PS3 without rebuilding assets, the game features way too many move sets and weapons for the characters and that is also why legendary dark night doesn't exists on the base versions of the new games, which is a mode with increased enemies.

You are either pretending to not get it or are forgetting how not planned downports look and play when they are not planned and launch either way in a previous generation, if the current generation does the real jump then the downported game becomes basically a new game so nobody does it anymore, it's way easier to target the lower spec and they prettier it up.
Why can't GG just put more animations, physics and AI routines into the PS5 version, while balancing which of those elements can be implemented into the PS4 version? If you think it would make the game play too differently, then it's mostly an issue of AI and physics. AI in games has hardly been computationally-bound. Games don't have genius-level AI, and it's not because the CPU can't crunch the numbers. So that leaves physics. You can very much have a more complex physics model in the PS5 version versus the PS4 version. That's something PC games have done ever since the introduction of PhysX.

Here's a thought, how does R&C demonstrate animation, physics, and AI beyond what a PS4 can do? That's a PS5-only game, but everything we've seen of it is PS3 R&C with shinier graphics, and world warping. That's plenty next-gen enough for me, and seemingly for everyone else. So why are we pretending that there's more to it than that?

tl;dr: The best showcase of the PS5's ability so far looks like a game that could be played on the PS3, if it had an SSD to handle the world warping. The map loading is what sets R&C apart from what could be done gameplay wise on a PS3. Other than that, it's exactly what we should expect from both cross-gen and next-gen games, a bump in resolution and detail. Demon Souls is PS5-only, and that is just the PS3 game with shinier graphics. GT8 will probably be PS5-only, and that will be GT4 with shinier graphics. The next Uncharted will be UC2 with shinier graphics. Should I continue? There's absolutely nothing wrong with next-gen being a new coat of paint. That's exactly what next-gen has been for decades now.
 

Haggard

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Then you clearly don't understand what's inside hardware wise in the series S.
Go ahead and compare the power of a low end min spec pc and compare, its less than half the power on the road vs a series s.
It seems that you simply don't understand that this doesn't matter at all....
The PC is not a standardized platform.
The lowest development target with fixed metrics on which a game has to run (well) with certain settings to get the mandatory approval from the platform holder is the Series S.
An office PC can never be the weakest link simply because it is not a primary development target and does not have any admittance checks..... If something can be scaled low enough to still somehow run on such hardware it's just coincidence......
The weakest link developers actually have to take care of this gen is the Series S.
 
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Clear

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It takes time for devs to become confident with what any piece of hardware can do. Something like TLOU2 is a prime example of what late-gen gains look like, and this is on a box that was designed to be relatively developer friendly, not an obtuse Rubik-cube like PS3 was.

Making judgements early on is kinda haphazard, because as much as anything its going to depend upon at what point in the cycle the devs got their hands on the hardware. Given that inception dates tend not to be publicly shared its hard to tell how much of the design was planned and prototyped before they got the new devkits, and knowing that is absolutely crucial in determining whether something was limited and by what degree.
 

FranXico

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Yea, always my attitude when I call out the Sony guys - yet they think there is nothing wrong with their approaches. I'm tired of being accused of the aggressor when I try to talk sense to you guys. The mods see it and all the other fans of different platforms see it too. I'm not the problem.
"You Sony fans are all the same. Only Sony fans are so arrogant and elitist! Xbox fans are so nice."

This kind of talk has nothing to do with reasoning with people. You claim to hate console warriors but hypocritically take sides in said console wars. What a coincidence that "all other fans" hold you in such high esteem.

I even heard that you actually do all of this on purpose, just to rile people up. Enjoy the attention from everyone else.
 
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I didn't believe in Xbox's words back then.
And i don't believe in Sony's words now either.

Of course games are held back by being cross-gen. They just can't admit that. i rather they say nothing at all, than lying to our faces like that.
 

Shmunter

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It takes time for devs to become confident with what any piece of hardware can do. Something like TLOU2 is a prime example of what late-gen gains look like, and this is on a box that was designed to be relatively developer friendly, not an obtuse Rubik-cube like PS3 was.

Making judgements early on is kinda haphazard, because as much as anything its going to depend upon at what point in the cycle the devs got their hands on the hardware. Given that inception dates tend not to be publicly shared its hard to tell how much of the design was planned and prototyped before they got the new devkits, and knowing that is absolutely crucial in determining whether something was limited and by what degree.
One thing about the PS5 is that it simplifies things a lot further for devs.

The massive cpu increase now means code no long need to be down to the bone optimised for a massively imbalanced cpu. Something that costs time and money and generally reserved for only the finest studios with the biggest budgets. These studios will continue to make the most out of the hardware in the coming years, but great results are now accessible to more devs.

The ssd removes a whole discipline of dealing with complex streaming setups. The api’s now bring across what’s needed into ram decompressed, ready to go in an instant. Free of cpu resources further increasing available compute.

Game design will change tilting the balance from a heavier tech focus more into the creative. We will see amazing stuff no doubt.
 
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Clear

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One thing about the PS5 is that it simplifies things a lot further for devs.

The massive cpu increase now means code no long need to be down to the bone optimised for a massively imbalanced cpu. Something that costs time and money and generally reserved for only the finest studios with the biggest budgets. These studios will continue to make the most out of the hardware in the coming years, but great results are now accessible to more devs.

The ssd removes a whole discipline of dealing with complex streaming setups. The api’s now bring across what’s needed into ram decompressed, ready to go in an instant. Free of cpu resources further increasing available compute.

Game design will change tilting the balance from a heavier tech focus more into the creative. We will see amazing stuff no doubt.

I suspect the CPU improvement is mostly going to get eaten up by moving to offering 60fps modes as standard. I mean, its going to be a hard sell to tell people a game is locked to 30 in order to support "better AI" or other things that aren't easily demonstrable.
 
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DarkMage619

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Yes, you're right. It was developed for ps4.

But saying cross-play development had 0 impacts is the main problem of all this. The wording of all that is a bit weird.

What they should've said is exactly what you´re telling me: Its a PS4 game with improved graphics on PS5.
The thing is I don't think you or anyone else could even tell it was developed on the PS4. Nothing about the game looks like a typical PS4 game. Besides there is no way they'd market it as a PS4 game with better graphics, especially when the goal is to sell more PS5s.