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[DF] Horizon Zero Dawn PC: An Amazing Game Gets A Disappointing Port

T-Cake

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I just downloaded Borderlands 3 on Steam and that spent a couple of minutes doing a shader compilation. So I think we can discount the emulator idea.
 

odd_hatch

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Do people play games on PC just to drool about their own PC's performance? Or is it to enjoy games?

So far the port problems seem to be only cosmetical. Like, wow, sometimes it goes below 60fps. Like gee, kill me right now.

If there were like crashes and terrible bugs I would understand. But this is a great game that needs to be enjoyed by everyone who missed it on PS4.
 

Sentenza

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I expected Master Race showcasing 8k down sampled to 4k, 240 fps and laughing at us console peasants...

instead....


Not sure what you are so cheerful about, exactly.
Not to mention it's still the best version of the game by a significant margin, aside for a couple of issues that need to be ironed out.
 
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ACESHIGH

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Do people play games on PC just to drool about their own PC's performance? Or is it to enjoy games?

So far the port problems seem to be only cosmetical. Like, wow, sometimes it goes below 60fps. Like gee, kill me right now.

If there were like crashes and terrible bugs I would understand. But this is a great game that needs to be enjoyed by everyone who missed it on PS4.
We just want quality ports that properly use our hardware across a wide array of specs.
In average pc gamers these days have hardware as powerful as an Xbox one x if not more. Running the game at just 1080p 30 fps is not enough.
Would you enjoy having a Ferrari if you could only drive it at 30 kmh because it has 4 flat tires?
 

Endless Fluff

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I wish it was the thing because Guerilla probably wouldn't let the game run like this. This port handled by Virtuos, which is stated in couple of reviews so far.

"Virtuous, the developer behind the port, on behalf of Guerrilla Games, has seemingly managed to release a DX12 game with only a modicum of pre-launch jitters. And we've not even had to drop the game down to DX11 in order for it to boot—I cannot understate how surprising that is. " Source

It's Singapore based studio that has couple of offices in Mainland China and worked on numerous projects like Uncharted 4 and original HZD. Their website also gives SSL error so will not share that here.
I stand corrected.

This needs to be updated on the Steam Store page then and I like how this information wasn't mentioned before release anywhere.
 
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carsar

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Pc platform needs pci 4.0 in order to avoid architecture's bottlenecks and handle games designed for 2013 ps4. So, ps5 would be even more advanced with higher bandwidths and faster I/O, and I'm affraid pc couldn't handle ps5 optimized games at all.
 
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TriSuit666

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Do people play games on PC just to drool about their own PC's performance? Or is it to enjoy games?

So far the port problems seem to be only cosmetical. Like, wow, sometimes it goes below 60fps. Like gee, kill me right now.

If there were like crashes and terrible bugs I would understand. But this is a great game that needs to be enjoyed by everyone who missed it on PS4.
Did you actually watch the video? The problems seem more deep rooted than just cosmetic issues. Got to say it feels like a lot of the same issues I was experiencing with AC: Odyssey in terms of frame hitching and having to fanny about with display settings to get things to work correctly.

This is a real shame for me, as I was really looking forward to playing this game again day one, but now, I don't think I can justify it until the issues are completely ironed out (and they aren't even with the day one patch it seems ).

But as you mentioned cosmetics...

 
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Kadayi

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Pre-ordered HZD, but tbh I'm still balls deep into Death Stranding atm so I dare say by the time I get around to it it will have been patched some. Fortunately albeit PC Master Race I'm not one of these silly cunts who flaps about 4K resolution or runs some OTT RGB Eyesore quad 2080 GPU behemoth either and wigs out when my FPs drop below 200.
 

Thaedolus

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Do people play games on PC just to drool about their own PC's performance? Or is it to enjoy games?

So far the port problems seem to be only cosmetical. Like, wow, sometimes it goes below 60fps. Like gee, kill me right now.

If there were like crashes and terrible bugs I would understand. But this is a great game that needs to be enjoyed by everyone who missed it on PS4.
Framerate variability can be really jarring and annoying though...? Like it’s one thing to play a game like TLOU2 at a rock solid 30FPS because you get used to it and know what to expect when you input commands. Hell Star Fox runs at like 15FPS but playing it I know to expect some janky ass early 90s 3D and adapt. But if you’re going from like 100FPS to 40 or lower, or have other weird stuttering and hitches, it just ruins the experience.

60+ FPS just feels better overall to me, and especially games like DOOM I want 100+ and quality PC games achieve that. And I put a lot of money into a GSYNC monitor to get rid of input lag and screen tearing; it really does feel amazing to play games with zero latency and the horsepower is there to allow for it...so when a game is optimized poorly and you run into those issues you spent a lot of money to eliminate, it’s kinda disappointing.
 
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martino

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Framerate variability can be really jarring and annoying though...? Like it’s one thing to play a game like TLOU2 at a rock solid 30FPS because you get used to it and know what to expect when you input commands. Hell Star Fox runs at like 15FPS but playing it I know to expect some janky ass early 90s 3D and adapt. But if you’re going from like 100FPS to 40 or lower, or have other weird stuttering and hitches, it just ruins the experience.

60+ FPS just feels better overall to me, and especially games like DOOM I want 100+ and quality PC games achieve that. And I put a lot of money into a GSYNC monitor to get rid of input lag and screen tearing; it really does feel amazing to play games with zero latency and the horsepower is there to allow for it...so when a game is optimized poorly and you run into those issues you spent a lot of money to eliminate, it’s kinda disappointing.
freesync and gsync is old news on pc now.
variable framerate with display able to handle stays better imo
 

ACESHIGH

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Pc platform needs pci 4.0 in order to avoid architecture's bottlenecks and handle games designed for 2013 ps4. So, ps5 would be even more advanced with higher bandwidths and faster I/O, and I'm affraid pc couldn't handle ps5 optimized games at all.
No, devs need to put in work to get the best out of the pc platform when porting a game.
We are paying close to full price for this and expect quality. Just like ps4 and ps4 pro owners received. If Sony is serious about their pc strategy they need to understand the audience and put in work.
 

Thaedolus

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freesync and gsync is old news on pc now.
variable framerate with display able to handle stays better imo
My monitor is 6 years old and is on par with any of the newer stuff with regard to latency and variable refresh, but I’m glad non-proprietary tech is achieving parity or improving on it. I want to upgrade it someday (1440p TN display...) and don’t want to be locked into any brand of video card like I am now
 
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VFXVeteran

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Your argument is that HZD on PC can have the same graphical features of HFW on PS5, and that is true. Both can be run at the same resolution, both can have the same AF setting, both can have the same AO quality. You then claim that because of these technical features HZD on PC will be similar in visual quality as HZ2 on PS5 which is simply untrue, due to the latter targeting a fundamentally much more powerful base target. My examples (and I can list way, way more) prove all of that.

You seem to believe that if one version of a game uses some of the same graphical features of another version of a different game they are then similar in visual quality. This is pretty ludicrous.
If the target is a more powerful base target, then one of those features will be greater than the other to show it. For example, if the base target can run higher resolution textures than the previous PC port, then yea, it's going to look better. In most of your examples, this was the case.

Look at Crysis for example, it survived generations of games because of all the tech features involved in the game.

I get your point, but my point isn't ludicrous. We'll just have to see..
 

carsar

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No, devs need to put in work to get the best out of the pc platform when porting a game.
We are paying close to full price for this and expect quality. Just like ps4 and ps4 pro owners received. If Sony is serious about their pc strategy they need to understand the audience and put in work.
Pc has weaker hardware and API's in terms of interfaces, so the ps4 optimised games can't run well on pCs with comparable gpu/cpu.
Pci-e x8 vs x16 gives 20% performance difference, so PC is just ineffective
 
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dotnotbot

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If Sony is serious about their pc strategy they need to understand the audience and put in work.
I think this quote from Herman Hulst makes it pretty clear what their strategy is. They don't really care about PC, they still want you to buy Playstation.

PSB: PlayStation is no stranger to publishing titles on the PC, but Horizon: Zero Dawn is one of the largest games to make that leap. Is there anything you would say to PlayStation fans? What does it mean for the future?
HH:
Sure. I think it’s important that we stay open to new ideas of how to introduce more people to PlayStation, and show people maybe what they’ve been missing out on.

 
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Clear

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There is still no indication that they are. Despite what, umm, certain posters would have you believe.
Ding. Ding.

Its a side-project for Guerrilla not their bread and butter. Most likely done relatively quickly with a small team, who might have ended up facing a bigger task than expected due to it being based on an old version of their tech/engine.

Most of all though, just because a game uses PC-builds/toolsets during development you shouldn't expect it to be built optimally for that platform! Back when the game was being developed there was a single target for release, the PS4, hence any and all optimization would be done for that platform.

This is most likely why Death Stranding came out so much better, because PC as a release platform was in mind from the start, not an afterthought years after delivery.
 

martino

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Pc platform needs pci 4.0 in order to avoid architecture's bottlenecks and handle games designed for 2013 ps4. So, ps5 would be even more advanced with higher bandwidths and faster I/O, and I'm affraid pc couldn't handle ps5 optimized games at all.
Pc has weaker hardware and API's in terms of interfaces, so the ps4 optimised games can't run well on pCs with comparable gpu/cpu.
Pci-e x8 vs x16 gives 20% performance difference, so PC is just ineffective
 

Zathalus

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If the target is a more powerful base target, then one of those features will be greater than the other to show it. For example, if the base target can run higher resolution textures than the previous PC port, then yea, it's going to look better. In most of your examples, this was the case.

Look at Crysis for example, it survived generations of games because of all the tech features involved in the game.

I get your point, but my point isn't ludicrous. We'll just have to see..
You have a point, but game engines don't always scale the more power you throw at it. The PC version of a prior generation console game is going to be hamstrung by the available texture resolution, geometry complexity, lighting engine, rendering techniques, and systems of the time. You can make it prettier by utilizing higher resolution, or more accurate AO, but it's still not going to have the overhauled lighting system, new cloud system, higher polygon models, or new water rendering of the sequel.

HZD PC looks better then PS4, but it's clearly a point of diminishing returns as well as missing feature sets that hold it back from comparing to HFW.

I never said your points were ludicrous (I even agree with your assessment that a PC port of a previous generation console game can have the same 'next-gen' feature set of a sequel). I'm claiming that your conclusion of same graphical options = equal visual fidelity is.

That being said, it's certainly possible for a previous console gen PC game to be equal to it's console sequel in visual fidelity, but the games engine needs to be built with that kind of scaling and forward looking technology in mind. I can't think of a single example of it however. Maybe Crysis? But even that is held back by a DX9 render path and strong focus on single-thread CPU performance.
 
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ACESHIGH

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I think this quote from Herman Hulst makes it pretty clear what their strategy is. They don't really care about PC, they still want you to buy Playstation.

PSB: PlayStation is no stranger to publishing titles on the PC, but Horizon: Zero Dawn is one of the largest games to make that leap. Is there anything you would say to PlayStation fans? What does it mean for the future?
HH:
Sure. I think it’s important that we stay open to new ideas of how to introduce more people to PlayStation, and show people maybe what they’ve been missing out on.

Thats PR speak 101. He knows the PS fanbase is the most rabid, what is he going to say to PS Blog of all places? That's damage control to not worry the fanboys about their exclusives. Enthusiast PC gamers are already aware of the games they are missing if they don't get a console. No need to port a game to show them. Besides, with such a poor port they won't be enticing anyone to get a console.
 

dotnotbot

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Thats PR speak 101. He knows the PS fanbase is the most rabid, what is he going to say to PS Blog of all places? That's damage control to not worry the fanboys about their exclusives. Enthusiast PC gamers are already aware of the games they are missing if they don't get a console. No need to port a game to show them. Besides, with such a poor port they won't be enticing anyone to get a console.
We will see what is PR speak and what's not, but so far it's easy to see - HZ2 is coming, PS5 is coming, play first one on PC and buy PS5 to play the second one. The rest is just wishful thinking and speculation. That's why this port isn't ambitious, they don't care about making this franchise big on PC, they want some quick money and more Playstation users.

Enthusiast PC gamers are already aware of the games they are missing if they don't get a console. No need to port a game to show them.
That's the problem, PC enthusiasts THINK they know what they are missing. Now they can finally experience the game, not just watch few minutes of it on youtube.
 
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You have a point, but game engines don't always scale the more power you throw at it. The PC version of a prior generation console game is going to be hamstrung by the available texture resolution, geometry complexity, lighting engine, rendering techniques, and systems of the time. You can make it prettier by utilizing higher resolution, or more accurate AO, but it's still not going to have the overhauled lighting system, new cloud system, higher polygon models, or new water rendering of the sequel.
That's IF and only IF you have a overhaul of the graphics engine.

HZD PC looks better then PS4, but it's clearly a point of diminishing returns as well as missing feature sets that hold it back from comparing to HFW.
We have no idea what HFW looks like in gameplay. And as I said before - your limitations on the new generation will be limited by how many of those graphics features are placed in. The only overhaul of graphics engines that will lend superior graphics would be in the lighting system using ray-tracing. Going back to light probes won't enhance the overall appearance. And that's the basis of my argument. The PS5 and XSX still have a disadvantaged GPU compared to the 2080Ti (and moreso with the 3080Ti). They will absolutely reach a point of diminishing returns on their hardware. So the problem would be, which one of those features and at what scale would each feature be for the given hardware they have.
 

Zathalus

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That's IF and only IF you have a overhaul of the graphics engine.
Which happens quite often.

We have no idea what HFW looks like in gameplay. And as I said before - your limitations on the new generation will be limited by how many of those graphics features are placed in. The only overhaul of graphics engines that will lend superior graphics would be in the lighting system using ray-tracing. Going back to light probes won't enhance the overall appearance. And that's the basis of my argument. The PS5 and XSX still have a disadvantaged GPU compared to the 2080Ti (and moreso with the 3080Ti). They will absolutely reach a point of diminishing returns on their hardware. So the problem would be, which one of those features and at what scale would each feature be for the given hardware they have.
Well do we really need to know what it looks like in gameplay? We have the in-engine cinematics from both HZD and HFW and we can compare those. We even have a far distance running shot in the trailer where Aloy is riding her mecha-dinosaur across a field, just compare that to any of the hero shots of Aloy in HZD. The improvements in visual fidelity are noticeable. Of course gamplay will not look as impressive, it never does, but it's not going to suddenly change into a dramatically different game due to that. You can use HZD as a example for this as well, character models and certain rendering items look better in the in-engine cinematics, but the game doesn't radically shift to something unrecognizable when playing it.

Your claim that the only overhaul that will lend to superior graphics is a ray-traced lighting system is suspect as well. Just to use UE5 as a example, Lumen for lighting comes to mind. Or SVOGI lighting from Cryengine. Ray-traced GI will look better no doubt (of course it will, Metro Exodus looks amazing with it), but lighting is hardly the only metric by which we can compare visual changes between console generations. UE5 nanite holds potential as well.

As for the PS5/XSX being disadvantaged against the 2080Ti, does this really matter? A 2080Ti or 3080Ti is not going to magically make HZD look any better then it already is. Yes, a 2080ti or 3080ti will perform better then the upcoming consoles, thus multi-platform games will look best on PC... but that's not a argument you are making. You are claiming that a previous gen game will offer visual fidelity comparable to a next gen game. We have numerous examples of this not being the case. I've listed a few of them already, but I can list plenty more if needed.
 
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VFXVeteran

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Which happens quite often.
Graphics engines this generation were essentially static for the most part. Some devs did pursue the RT tech but that is few and far between. We'll just have to agree to disagree here.

Well do we really need to know what it looks like in gameplay?
Absolutely. I'm convinced that Decima engine isn't being overhauled for HFW. I don't see anything "new" to the graphics features list that we haven't already seen before (maybe not in HZD but in other games).

We have the in-engine cinematics from both HZD and HFW and we can compare those.
I'd rather not compare cutscenes of games. It's hardly any metric IMO to judge what will be the crux of the gameplay.

We even have a far distance running shot in the trailer where Aloy is riding her mecha-dinosaur across a field, just compare that to any of the hero shots of Aloy in HZD. The improvements in visual fidelity are noticeable.
Can you describe what specifically is noticeable from that shot to any other game shot? We can use the list of 3D features that I gave.

Your claim that the only overhaul that will lend to superior graphics is a ray-traced lighting system is suspect as well. Just to use UE5 as a example, Lumen for lighting comes to mind. Or SVOGI lighting from Cryengine. Ray-traced GI will look better no doubt (of course it will, Metro Exodus looks amazing with it), but lighting is hardly the only metric by which we can compare visual changes between console generations. UE5 nanite holds potential as well.
While other people may not tell the difference, I can tell very easily. Those systems still can't capture occlusion of small triangles. Also, Epic worked on that system for over 5yrs. There is no proof that GG is using such a feature. In fact, there is no other game that really comes close to the UE5 demo lighting system other than RDR2 (which is still one of the most tech heavy presentations of this generation).

As for the PS5/XSX being disadvantaged against the 2080Ti, does this really matter? A 2080Ti or 3080Ti is not going to magically make HZD look any better then it already is.
I disagree. Let's go back to the 3D feature list.

If I could just wish upon certain features that require no artist input, but would make a dramatic difference in rendering quality, it would be these:

HBAO - it is broken in this PC implementation. This is one graphics feature that is so critical to the look of a game. If I could have RT ambient occlusion, it would be that much more pretty.

16x Anisotropic filtering - again this seems to be broken.

LOD - this to be working and should give a much more consistent view of the world without popin.

FPS - this doesn't necessarily point to a better looking game but it will significantly increase the gameplay experience.

Textures - this was a wrong assumption by me.

I will admit that when I made that claim, I assumed that GG had a crop of texture assets that were higher resolution than the ones in the PS4 version. I was wrong concerning that. A lot of ports for the PC does indeed have higher resolution assets.

You are claiming that a previous gen game will offer visual fidelity comparable to a next gen game. We have numerous examples of this not being the case. I've listed a few of them already, but I can list plenty more if needed.
If we keep the same engine from Decima and increase the number of features that can be applied to HFW and possibly increase a small number of fidelity in each of the features that will be supported. This will significantly eat up GPU cycles. We see this even with the PC version of HZD. I would be very doubtful of applying many 3D features to the engine for the PS5 when it's performance range is an order of magnitude less than the 2080Ti. In other words, what will you do with the extra cycles of the PS5's GPU in HFW? If you add more detailed textures, and push for true 4k/30FPS with 16x anistropic filtering, you've pretty much eaten up most of your GPU cycles as an example. The big question is can PS5 use more features and higher fidelity of those features more than a 2080Ti with older assets and less features given the difference in GPU power? I am doubtful that would be the case just by sheer math.
 
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DeaDPooL_jlp

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I see people poking at DF yet again but have you folks tested the port before having an opinion?
This thread is full of playstation players who don't own a PC and were hoping there'd be issues so they could come in here and stir up shit. Meanwhile I'm chilling waiting for the last 45 minutes to pass before launch,really excited to experience a better version of an already awesome game.
 

DeaDPooL_jlp

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That's the problem, PC enthusiasts THINK they know what they are missing. Now they can finally experience the game, not just watch few minutes of it on youtube.
You realize a lot of pc players have consoles as well right? I've already got the platinum for HZD and the dlc,I'm just excited to experience a better version of it all over again.

Don't assume PC players are like console players where we believe we can only play on one platform or we bring shame to our plastic box manufacturer.
 

Fake

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You realize a lot of pc players have consoles as well right? I've already got the platinum for HZD and the dlc,I'm just excited to experience a better version of it all over again.

Don't assume PC players are like console players where we believe we can only play on one platform or we bring shame to our plastic box manufacturer.
Hold a second, now you're assuming console players don't have a PC...
 

Zathalus

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Graphics engines this generation were essentially static for the most part. Some devs did pursue the RT tech but that is few and far between. We'll just have to agree to disagree here.

Absolutely. I'm convinced that Decima engine isn't being overhauled for HFW. I don't see anything "new" to the graphics features list that we haven't already seen before (maybe not in HZD but in other games).
I'm just going to have to disagree here, graphics feature list is just one metric that determines how good a game looks. Anybody can whip something up in UE4 using all the latest graphical techniques, but that offer zero guarantee it will actually look good. As for the Decima engine evolving I think we can just look at the work GG has been doing with the Cloud System Nubis.

It strikes me as unbelievable that the Decima engine will not have significant work done to it to take advantage of the fact that the targeted machine has 8 times the GPU power, a more advanced hardware feature set, 4 fold increase in CPU power, more then twice the amount of available RAM, 2.5 fold increase in memory bandwidth, and a ludicrous difference (50/60 fold?) in I/O. Just compare the difference in fidelity between Killzone 3 and Shadowfall.
 

VFXVeteran

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I'm just going to have to disagree here, graphics feature list is just one metric that determines how good a game looks. Anybody can whip something up in UE4 using all the latest graphical techniques, but that offer zero guarantee it will actually look good. As for the Decima engine evolving I think we can just look at the work GG has been doing with the Cloud System Nubis.

It strikes me as unbelievable that the Decima engine will not have significant work done to it to take advantage of the fact that the targeted machine has 8 times the GPU power, a more advanced hardware feature set, 4 fold increase in CPU power, more then twice the amount of available RAM, 2.5 fold increase in memory bandwidth, and a ludicrous difference (50/60 fold?) in I/O. Just compare the difference in fidelity between Killzone 3 and Shadowfall.
The GPU is still in the realm of a 1080Ti or less. All of those things are great, but if you shoot for true 4k, you eat up your bandwidth. That's just a fact.

And you are right about overall look, but we are talking about the same talented team that knows how to make their assets. It's like comparing RE2: Remake to RE3: Remake. Same overall talent involved. Same rich color palette, etc..

I try very hard to steer away from subjective comparisons as that's completely unarguable. We can only argue facts. It'll be interesting to see what they change though for HFW. I'm excited to discuss this further when it comes out. (y)
 

VFXVeteran

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I still can't load up the game. Wtf??

UPDATE: Now it's working.
 
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MagiusNecros

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Do people play games on PC just to drool about their own PC's performance? Or is it to enjoy games?

So far the port problems seem to be only cosmetical. Like, wow, sometimes it goes below 60fps. Like gee, kill me right now.

If there were like crashes and terrible bugs I would understand. But this is a great game that needs to be enjoyed by everyone who missed it on PS4.
I think I'll just enjoy the game. If it's 30FPS or better you won't catch me crying.
 

Pejo

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Definitely going to wait and watch for a patch before picking this up, but I'll definitely eventually get it. They're already aware of the problems and working on performance issues apparently.
 

Zekra Dezivad

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Did you actually watch the video? The problems seem more deep rooted than just cosmetic issues. Got to say it feels like a lot of the same issues I was experiencing with AC: Odyssey in terms of frame hitching and having to fanny about with display settings to get things to work correctly.

This is a real shame for me, as I was really looking forward to playing this game again day one, but now, I don't think I can justify it until the issues are completely ironed out (and they aren't even with the day one patch it seems ).

But as you mentioned cosmetics...

The game seems gorgeous from those videos