Are Modern Games Dev Cycles TOO Long?

Lunarorbit

Member
HOLY SHIT THIS.
I feel like these companies really need to invest in researchers who search forums like these, youtube, discord etc to see what people actually want. They're so fucking tonedeaf and out of touch. If these companies hired even 1 person to browse neogaf every day to gauge interest in IPs they may be trying to create/remaster/remake they could literally double their revenue. They can't keep being late to the punch and beaten by another company who's actually in touch and knows what the hell people want
It's all reactionary and since these dev cycles are getting longer its like the disconnect is getting more pronounced.

Granted this is mitigated by the ass load of games that are coming out each week. But to your point about someone should be checking these subs and sites out I totally agree and I bet they do.

I hear all the time though that people who post on sites like this are the enthusiastists and our opinions don't represent the gaming masses tastes.

That kind of criticism always comes off as shit to me; it's like career politicians yelling at people to just get a higher paying job if the economy is bad.
 

remember_spinal

Gold Member
hm
not a big thing i hear from gaming discourse where i hang around. online or IRL people don't really care about "reused animations" thank god

I do think the DLC criticism is valid in some cases though, like GOW Ragnarok does look similar to 2018 but it was a 4 year dev cycle for a clearly high budget high production value game, and there doesnt seem to be any downgrades anywhere gameplay, graphic, cinematics wise
Meanwhile Tears of the Kingdom looks the exact same as BOTW while also having a 6 year dev cycle with multiple delays and almost 0 news on anything new we can expect in the game.
Back in the 16bit/32bit days sequels didnt look this close to each other

Miyazaki himself said he felt pressure due to Demon’s Souls to increase the graphical fidelity of Elden Ring. Gamers are constantly demanding bigger and shinier, they want to flex their next gen consoles or new GPU’s, people want to feel validation for constantly upgrading their gaming hardware, and it all adds to longer dev cycles.

https://www.videogameschronicle.com...-felt-extra-pressure-due-to-demons-souls-ps5/


There are members on here that make it their whole identity to whine about how games don’t look “next gen” enough. Like, c’mon lol it’s a tired and constant complaint about the current gaming landscape
 
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64bitmodels

Reverse groomer.
There are members on here that make it their whole identity to whine about how games don’t look “next gen” enough. Like, c’mon lol it’s a tired and constant complaint about the current gaming landscape
SlimySnake SlimySnake Hi :)

TBF though you spend 500 dollars to play the latest and greatest games and then you get games that look like they could run on the $300 box you purchased 8 years ago

Its bad on both sides and thats why we have the current dev times and complaints we do now
 

remember_spinal

Gold Member
SlimySnake SlimySnake Hi :)

TBF though you spend 500 dollars to play the latest and greatest games and then you get games that look like they could run on the $300 box you purchased 8 years ago

Its bad on both sides and thats why we have the current dev times and complaints we do now

Just proves just how much more complex making games have gotten since the ps2 era. You need fully voiced and experienced voice and mo cap actors even for NPCs, you need accessibility options, you need entirely separate teams of animators and asset builders, games are twice as long (what god of war ragnarok is only 20 hours???), you got people that want simultaneous PC and console release, people want gyro and other tech features, etc.

We saw how many teams worked on Ragnarok, where as just one of those support teams could have made the original god of war in like a year. The audience would never accept it though, people aren’t even satisfied with what we’re getting and theres almost nothing that compares to it on that scale in its genre.
 
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I would love if they scaled back and returned to the corridor level design. Concentrate more on things 100% of the player base will see, like animation, level design, mechanics, AI and that will trickle down to super polished experiences with hyper detailed graphics just by limiting your level size.

For the first three 3D generations (ps1-3), that was the trajectory, with the occasional Elder Scrolls mixed in, but the majority of games where linear. Improvements over time were tangible. Now with everything bloated and open world, millions of missions most people won’t see, which cost a lot (voice acting, mission design etc) it’s not an efficient use of resources.

I think TLoU2 is the ultimate expression of that methodology I described above. 100% of the resources well used. It was an expensive game but you can scale it down not every game will be on that level.
 

Guilty_AI

Member
We saw how many teams worked on Ragnarok, where as just one of those support teams could have made the original god of war in like a year. The audience would never accept it though, people aren’t even satisfied with what we’re getting and theres almost nothing that compares to it on that scale in its genre.
People are generally fine with it though. Stuff like Elden Ring or nintendo games are big proof of this as they aren't top of the shelf in terms of graphics or performance, but still go on to get critical acclaim and break sales records, even if you do get the occasional person online complaining about pointless things.

The problem is we have a selection of games whose whole appeal is having the newest and shiniest visuals, and when you take that away from those there isn't much left that would make people want to pick it up. In a way, those companies dug their own grave when they decided to start using set pieces and visual awe to advertise and sell their games.
 
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BennyBlanco

aka IMurRIVAL69
Everybody is working from home. So half their day is spent on pornhub and netflix. Then you have the anti crunch crusades.
 

SlimySnake

The Contrarian
Miyazaki himself said he felt pressure due to Demon’s Souls to increase the graphical fidelity of Elden Ring. Gamers are constantly demanding bigger and shinier, they want to flex their next gen consoles or new GPU’s, people want to feel validation for constantly upgrading their gaming hardware, and it all adds to longer dev cycles.

https://www.videogameschronicle.com...-felt-extra-pressure-due-to-demons-souls-ps5/


There are members on here that make it their whole identity to whine about how games don’t look “next gen” enough. Like, c’mon lol it’s a tired and constant complaint about the current gaming landscape
nah i dislike the modern gaming landscape because it feels too samey, dated and absolutely fucking stale.

but you do you.
 

hemo memo

Gold Member
Ironic isn’t it? As the core focus of this gen to cut development time and bring devs up to speed faster than last gen.

Devs/pubs should seriously consider scaling things significantly. In this day and age and how many options and how many games, 40+ hours is just too much for a single game. 70$/60$ price is even more ridiculous when knowing it’ll go down in price just shortly after.
 

remember_spinal

Gold Member
nah i dislike the modern gaming landscape because it feels too samey, dated and absolutely fucking stale.

but you do you.

Sing Bow Tie GIF by Cameo
 

remember_spinal

Gold Member
People are generally fine with it though. Stuff like Elden Ring or nintendo games are big proof of this as they aren't top of the shelf in terms of graphics or performance, but still go on to get critical acclaim and break sales records, even if you do get the occasional person online complaining about pointless things.

The problem is we have a selection of games whose whole appeal is having the newest and shiniest visuals, and when you take that away from those there isn't much left that would make people want to pick it up. In a way, those companies dug their own grave when they decided to start using set pieces and visual awe to advertise and sell their games.

I could buy this if nintendo games like metroid prime, the next 3d mario, and tears of the kingdom didn’t also take 5+ years to make,
 

SlimySnake

The Contrarian
SlimySnake SlimySnake Hi :)

TBF though you spend 500 dollars to play the latest and greatest games and then you get games that look like they could run on the $300 box you purchased 8 years ago

Its bad on both sides and thats why we have the current dev times and complaints we do now
The problem isnt the devs or long dev times. The problem is the low standard of mediocrity apologists that roam these boards. We used to have high standards where any game that felt samey, looked last gen or felt dated was massacred on this board. Called ubisoft trash and dismissed immediately. Now that first party devs that used to have higher standards are also following the lead of Ubisoft, EA and Activision in churning out the same old CoD, Ass Creed and EA's patented GaaS trash, we have people who have their entire identity built around loyalty find themselves at a crossroads. They can either criticize their favorite dev and publisher or just completely exposed themselves as sad biased posters they always were. Sadly, most of them have chosen the latter.

We saw the same apologists masquerading as video game journalists handing out 8s and 9s to every generic video game year after year, and we all hated those journos. Now we've turned into them. The only difference is that publishers pay for the ads that pay their salaries. we just do it for free.
 

remember_spinal

Gold Member
I don’t think so. The reason why gaming is my hobby is because of AAA games. If I didn’t have games like GOW:R or Starfield to look forward to, then I just wouldn’t bother.

Same. I like indie games and AA stuff, a lot of times more than AAA but thats not what gets my booty pumping. It wouldn’t be enough to keep me perpetually entrenched in the hobby.

I’d even go as far to say if sony as a publisher ceased to exist I’d be out. SIE, Capcom, Square Enix, and Fromsoft are the only AAA developers that can get me excited for months for games.. Thats why I don’t really get excited for gaming showcases and ‘E3’ anymore. A lot of devs just aren’t really making anything that personally excite me
 
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The problem is they try to make the game excruciatingly long to make it seem worth your money when all it really is, is a lot of fluff and fetch quests. I’d rather they go back to shorter more-linear games that don’t take as long to develop.
 

yurinka

Member
The dev cycles are as long as needed to make the type of games they do. The length is proportional to the amount of stuff they put in a game and how long it is.

Which is too big is the length and featureset of some games. Being too big, too long, too detailed means the dev cycle is going to be too long. If they would reduce their featureset, length etc to a third of what they are, the dev cycle would be reduced in like a half.
 
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Kokoloko85

Member
Im guessing Covid was an issue otherwise I don’t know why GOW R and Horizon 2 took longer to make then the GOW 2018 and Horizon 1
 
Part of the blame lies in nvidia and amd that keeps churning out these top of the line cards and of course the AAA need to push the graphics too to make it seemed worth it. Its a feedback loop. But again, technology cant be stagnant.


The problem is they try to make the game excruciatingly long to make it seem worth your money when all it really is, is a lot of fluff and fetch quests. I’d rather they go back to shorter more-linear games that don’t take as long to develop.

They want that 70 dollars so they have to justify it.
 

nani17

are in a big trouble
When it comes to Rockstar I don't care how long they take. They continually deliver their titles over and over for the last number of years. It wont last forever but lets enjoy it while it lasts
 

Pejo

Member
Seems like a side effect of everyone going for either A) Cinematic Graphics focused moviegames, B) Open world collect-a-thon games, or C) Live service "let's try to please everyone" games.

If games were still more singular in scope and aim, we'd see a lot more tightly focused games released as a result. But is that what modern audiences want anymore?
 

Haggard

Banned
We want more complexity and better graphics in our games so we have to give the devs more time.
It is what it is.
 
Seems like a side effect of everyone going for either A) Cinematic Graphics focused moviegames, B) Open world collect-a-thon games, or C) Live service "let's try to please everyone" games.

If games were still more singular in scope and aim, we'd see a lot more tightly focused games released as a result. But is that what modern audiences want anymore?
Nah
 

Guilty_AI

Member
I could buy this if nintendo games like metroid prime, the next 3d mario, and tears of the kingdom didn’t also take 5+ years to make,
But nintendo is still making sure their console is getting a constant stream of games that can make their audience happy, with their own releases or working alongside third parties. So the long dev times, whatever reason there may be for them (since it clearly isn't because of visual fidelity), don't feel as bad. Last two years saw MH Rise, Bravely Default 2, Metroid Dread, Animal Crossing NH, SMTV, Xenoblade C 3, Arceus, Splatoon 3, Kirby and the Forgotten Land, Bayonetta 3 later this year....

Now, you could definitely pick a good selection of titles released, for comparison on the ps5, that could keep people entertained.
The problem however is that the ps5, unlike the Switch, was sold on the idea of next-gen. You see people unhappy and complaining because they went out of their way to get a $500 console (or more if they had to go to a scalper) under the impression they'd be getting tons of ultra good-looking games that were impossible before, with some miraculous game design improvements brought about by the pawah of the SSD or something.

But they aren't getting it after two years. At best being drip-fed content if some release or another fits whatever pre-conceptions they had about what 'next-gen' is supposed to look like. Thats why i said the company is digging their own grave, advertising their portfolio around that but can't deliver.
 
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Knightime_X

Member
I think all the games you mentioned were delayed deliberately for one reason or another that's not related to development time.
 

remember_spinal

Gold Member
But nintendo is still making sure their console is getting a constant stream of games that can make their audience happy, with their own releases or working alongside third parties. So the long dev times, whatever reason there may be for them (since it clearly isn't because of visual fidelity), don't feel as bad. Last two years saw MH Rise, Bravely Default 2, Metroid Dread, Animal Crossing NH, SMTV, Xenoblade C 3, Arceus, Splatoon 3, Kirby and the Forgotten Land, Bayonetta 3 later this year....

Now, you could definitely pick a good selection of titles released, for comparison on the ps5, that could keep people entertained.
The problem however is that the ps5, unlike the Switch, was sold on the idea of next-gen. You see people unhappy and complaining because they went out of their way to get a $500 console (or more if they had to go to a scalper) under the impression they'd be getting tons of ultra good-looking games that were impossible before, with some miraculous game design improvements brought about by the pawah of the SSD or something.

But they aren't getting it after two years. At best being drip-fed content if some release or another fits whatever pre-conceptions they had about what 'next-gen' is supposed to look like. Thats why i said the company is digging their own grave, advertising their portfolio around that but can't deliver.

Thats because the switch is almost 6 years old, lets see if people keep the same energy about nintendo and it’s AA feeling games after the switch 2 releases and will inevitably be 399.99 with 70 dollar games similar to other ‘next gen’ consoles
 
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geary

Member
Gamers on CoD and Assassins Creed games…’These are copy paste.How else we have a new entry every 1-2 years. They sont take time to reinvent a formula that work, at least for a big portion of the consumers.

Also gamers ‘Why dont we get more games in less time’
 
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geary

Member
hm
not a big thing i hear from gaming discourse where i hang around. online or IRL people don't really care about "reused animations" thank god

I do think the DLC criticism is valid in some cases though, like GOW Ragnarok does look similar to 2018 but it was a 4 year dev cycle for a clearly high budget high production value game, and there doesnt seem to be any downgrades anywhere gameplay, graphic, cinematics wise
Meanwhile Tears of the Kingdom looks the exact same as BOTW while also having a 6 year dev cycle with multiple delays and almost 0 news on anything new we can expect in the game.
Back in the 16bit/32bit days sequels didnt look this close to each other
Yes, because neogaf represents what the masses want. Just look at CoD…Activision listen to neogaf and thats why they sell their games like hot cake.
 
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In a world without the success of gta online, I would ask myself, if it is possible to get some of the people who make GTA what it is and build up a second Rockstar North. Hire many talents from around the industry and make a main entry every 5 years instead of 10. A little like Forza Motorsport and Horizon. Two teams for the same franchise but with different approaches. Maybe one more over the top Trevor-ish, one more subtle and serious like GTA IV. Maybe even one in Europe and one in America.

But this is all a wet dream from a GTA fanboy, business will not do it and maybe this would not work at all ;)
 
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remember_spinal

Gold Member
Yes, because neogaf represents what the masses want. Just look at CoD…Activision listen to neogam and thats why they sell their games like hot cake.

This is why i say F2P, Battle Royal, Mobile, and GAAS will inevitably take over. The people who whine about games the most don’t know what they want and don’t even go out and support the games they do get. They wait for major AAA games to be discounted before buying them, they aren’t an important demo for publishers anymore.

Gamer ‘enthusiast’ want state of the art single player games and then complain about them raising the price and how long they take to make. Then when the games start selling like shit and dont get sequels (all japan studio games, days gone, platformers) they whine about how the industry is going to shit becuase they are targeting the people that spend money on games, the GAAS, casual audience.

Jim Ryan said GAAS is the future because he saw the actual raw data. The biggest gaming enthusiast aren’t on twitter and message boards, they are playing fortnite, warzone, counterstrike, and apex non-stop.
 
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The problem isnt the devs or long dev times. The problem is the low standard of mediocrity apologists that roam these boards. We used to have high standards where any game that felt samey, looked last gen or felt dated was massacred on this board. Called ubisoft trash and dismissed immediately. Now that first party devs that used to have higher standards are also following the lead of Ubisoft, EA and Activision in churning out the same old CoD, Ass Creed and EA's patented GaaS trash, we have people who have their entire identity built around loyalty find themselves at a crossroads. They can either criticize their favorite dev and publisher or just completely exposed themselves as sad biased posters they always were. Sadly, most of them have chosen the latter.

We saw the same apologists masquerading as video game journalists handing out 8s and 9s to every generic video game year after year, and we all hated those journos. Now we've turned into them. The only difference is that publishers pay for the ads that pay their salaries. we just do it for free.
 
This is why i say F2P, Battle Royal, Mobile, and GAAS will inevitably take over. The people who whine about games the most don’t know what they want and don’t even go out and support the games they do get. They wait for major AAA games to be discounted before buying them, they aren’t an important demo for publishers anymore.

Gamer ‘enthusiast’ want state of the art single player games and then complain about them raising the price and how long they take to make. Then when the games start selling like shit and dont get sequels (all japan studio games, days gone, platformers) they whine about how the industry is going to shit becuase they are targeting the people that spend money on games, the GAAS, casual audience.

Jim Ryan said GAAS is the future because he saw the actual raw data. The biggest gaming enthusiast aren’t on twitter and message boards, they are playing fortnite, warzone, counterstrike, and apex non-stop.
 

Guilty_AI

Member
Thats because the switch is almost 6 years old, lets see if people keep the same energy about nintendo and it’s AA feeling games after the switch 2 releases and will inevitably be 399.99 with 70 dollar games similar to other ‘next gen’ consoles
The point is, they aren't selling their products as some thing that will bring games to the next stage of evolution, even if the price tags are the same. Sony and some other companies are.
 
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lachesis

Gold Member
Yes and no.
Yes for the select few series that I follow.
(Ys, Persona, Resident Evil, Zelda, Metroid, etc)

No as market is so big now, it's impossible to play everything, and there are so many games that deserve some playtime.

In the end, it kinda balances out... but more than anything, it's me who don't have time and energy.
And it's sad that Persona 10 may be the last persona I can possibly play if the dev term is something close to 8 years per.

By the time Persona 6 comes out, it would be like 2024 at the earliest. Persona 7 would be 2032 at the earliest. 8? 2040. 9? 2048. I will be 75 years old by then. 10? I'll be 83 years old!
And by then, as juvenile person as I am in my mind, I may finally feel like I don't want to play Japanese highschooler character anymore too! lol.
 

Sosokrates

Report me if I continue to console war
Some devs spend a really long time and work crazy hard to make a game that sets a new standard, and now they and other devs have to make a game thats vastly better because expections are at a new level.
 

64bitmodels

Reverse groomer.
Gamer ‘enthusiast’ want state of the art single player games and then complain about them raising the price and how long they take to make. Then when the games start selling like shit and dont get sequels (all japan studio games, days gone, platformers) they whine about how the industry is going to shit becuase they are targeting the people that spend money on games, the GAAS, casual audience.

Jim Ryan said GAAS is the future because he saw the actual raw data. The biggest gaming enthusiast aren’t on twitter and message boards, they are playing fortnite, warzone, counterstrike, and apex non-stop.
Even if you buy these games you're one man in a sea of people who either will not care or do not bother. Look at how many gaming boycotts have failed even when a sizeable portion of people actually try them.
 

remember_spinal

Gold Member
Even if you buy these games you're one man in a sea of people who either will not care or do not bother. Look at how many gaming boycotts have failed even when a sizeable portion of people actually try them.

Yeah, what im saying is its an on-going pervasive trend amongst the more “hardcore” gamers. The majority of people on twitter and forums love talking about games more than playing them, which also equates to spending less money on them
 
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CJ_75

Member
Game developers are good a making games, not at making movies.
Since the highly cinematic Metal Gear Solid, every game wants to be like a movie.
I absolutely love cutscenes but I think it eats too much development time. Let cutscenes be done by a (external) animation studio (like Ember Lab) and let game developers focus on game mechanics.
 
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