Bonsaibäumchen
Member
Because we can and we like it that way. Stop pretending like 60fps is the only true way to play games. ffs.
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HDTVTEST: Sorry, but Horizon Forbidden West's Gorgeous Visuals are TAINTED by Distracting Picture Quality Bugs
- Thread starter Arioco
- Start date
SSfox
Member
VFXVeteran
Banned
Thanks for this.
Performance mode is simply too low of a render resolution for the foliage which occupy a very small pixel area. Over time, it will alias because the framebuffer just doesn't have enough pixels to capture the leaves of the foliage as they move through the pixel grid on the screen. It's the classic line drawing aliasing problem.
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SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Damn, dude straight up calls out other youtubers (He doesnt name DF but hes clearly talking about them) for not covering the performance mode issues. Also, points out that this might not be so easily fixable and a 40 fps mode is likely our best option.
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T0minator
Member
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
yeah, i did all that.
The only thing that made it go away was turning off the motion blur and camera sensitivity to zero. Even then its distracting whenever it rains or snows, and its not completely gone.
I collect VHS tapes
Member
what a mess
dorkimoe
Member
This. Everyone even defending 30fps is insane. It’s awful. You don’t need the extra 2 pixels
T0minator
Member
Then why did you ask what patch?
It looks fine on my TV. I've put in about 30hrs and since Saturday morning this past weekend I didn't even think it was an issue anymore until I saw this thread today. The game looks really great still. Maybe try closing the game again? Who knows. But it's great on my end
HellforLeather
Member
Cool. I will give this a shot.
Some of the hyperbole in this thread is wild though. Some of you need to relax.
"The bushes in Horizon Forbidden West are so fucking shimmery! How can you not see it? Are you looking at the bushes!? What a mess for Sony! Its practically early access!"
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
They havent released an official patch for this game since the day one patch. Whatever they did happened in the background. Nothing shows up in the PS5 downloads when you reboot the game. It's probably just something that shipped with a day one patch and didnt take. Requiring a new reboot or two.Then why did you ask what patch?
I thought you were talking about a new patch.
Dr Bass
Member
I don't need 2 extra pixels if that's all it was. But the vastly superior resolution and image quality is a far better trade off than the poop show of performance mode. 30fps works just fine in this game. And it looks fantastic.
NeonGhost
uses 'M$' - What year is it? Not 2002.
Feel Like I'm On 42
Member
I'm glad the choice exists. I play at 30 no because I want to but because it's the only way to play this looking like it did in the trailers/demos leading up to launch.
Zathalus
Member
Wait, not even in the races? The pop-in is quite noticeable when going top speed.
StateofMajora
Banned
Man DF really is negligent and or dishonest compared to what they used to be.
Still laughing over the technical master class stuff lol.
Something like Days gone has higher resolution, less pop in and none of these issues. Honestly this is one of the weaker cross gen releases, I take back the little praise I had.
I wonder if the team make up even resembles the killzone 2 staff anymore…
Still laughing over the technical master class stuff lol.
Something like Days gone has higher resolution, less pop in and none of these issues. Honestly this is one of the weaker cross gen releases, I take back the little praise I had.
I wonder if the team make up even resembles the killzone 2 staff anymore…
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DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Dr Bass
Member
The game looks ridiculously good in resolution mode at least. In some aspects I've never seen anything better. You aren't even playing the game.
StateofMajora
Banned
It always was the truth but because Sony fans have to tell themselves every damn exclusive is gold we have these threads.
StateofMajora
Banned
And I never will.
I can see things like pop in in video, pixel resolution in uncompressed screens.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Havent gotten there yet. Thats disappointing to hear. Especially on the PS5 with its fast SSD and IO speeds.
Dr Bass
Member
No, it's not, and it has nothing to do with being a "Sony fan" and everything to do with liking video games, and playing them where they exist. If you still think this is a Sony thing, get a freaking life.
I'm playing the game on an 85" 4k screen. I get the full experience, and can examine things in person over the course of many, many hours. There is already way more to the game than I've seen in screenshots and videos. It's entirely different from (uncompressed) screens, and YouTube videos. You literally have no idea what you're talking about. Zero. Zilch. Nada. And you are on here trying to speak with authority, looking for reasons to dislike something rather than actually experiencing something yourself.
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DeepEnigma
Gold Member
And you are being just as full of shit on the other side of the spectrum.
mUsT bE a SoNy fAn tHiNg
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kikii
Member
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Hate to say it but I called it the moment I saw Sony was going multiplatform. Everyone was like why do you hate more people playing the game? Why are you such a fanboy and I'm like I myself am a PC gamer, it's not about me. It's about the quality and polish that comes from exclusively developing games on one platform. This is a cross gen game made on three platforms and it is already having issues we have not seen from Sony devs before. Whats going to happen when they start developing PC games alongside console versions?
And thats just the tip of the iceberg. Jim Ryan literally said they are going multiplatform. Guess what multiplatform publishers like EA and Ubisoft do? They rush out games to meet the holiday season. EA notoriously rushed out Mass Effect 3, Mass Effect Andromeda and Anthem back to back to back just before their fiscal year end to ensure the revenue went towards that fiscal year bucket. Who is to say Jimbo didnt rush out Horizon so that its revenue went into Sony's current fiscal year? After all, when exclusives are no longer about selling consoles, when they are no longer about setting standards and are basically a source of extra revenue then revenue is all that matters. Who cares about extracting the most out of the PS5 when you will sell more units if you make it cross gen?
Last year, GG spent six months working on fixes bugs for the PC version. Six months of precious dev resources and QA time. They literally had to announce they wont be patching the game anymore because its taken too much time and resources already. Who is to say those resources wouldnt have gone towards making this a far more polished experience?
StateofMajora
Banned
It’s a Sony thing. I saw what you posted about halo infinite despite it offering 120fps, and is also cross gen.
I’m equally unimpressed with horizon as I am with halo.
I’ll put my enthusiasm for video games well the fuck over yours and the amount of games I have reflects that.
Huh? I don’t say everything nintendo is gold. I can’t even get excited for breath of the wild 2, xenoblade 3 etc.
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PropellerEar
Member
GHG
Member
They already addressed the pop-in, they couldn't reproduce it and it's not something everyone is experiencing. The shimmering in the performance mode though... Yeh I don't know why they didn't talk about that more but ultimately how bad it appears depends on the standard of TV they do their testing on (they might even use a monitor...).
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DeepEnigma
Gold Member
My comment was in general. All fanbases act the fucking same, then point fingers scratching their own assholes.
StateofMajora
Banned
It's not the issue of going multiplatform. Besides missing 60fps mode Forza Horizon 5 did a very good job on old gen.
There are some rendering problems going on with FW which weren't adressed in polishing phase. Forbidden West isn't on track with the usual Sony standards. Animation system has some really creepy moments. Climbing system is subpar even compared to first Assassins' Creed 15 years ago (not the leap I expected compared to HZD). Combat is really really basic and some level design (gameplay wise) drives me crazy.
Ironically Microsoft Games had the same level of issues during the last gen when they released they games under high pressure. Really feels like lacking QA and polish. Won't say that this makes the game worse but it adds a bad taste to the overall experience. Totally aside from the fact that this is an enhanced last gen game. But honestly nobody expected anything else as new engines aren't in place yet.
GHG
Member
Yeh well I'm playing the game and aren't experiencing any pop-in, the same goes for a lot of other people who are actually playing.
A lot of the let's play footage you'll see all over YouTube was played and recorded prior to the day one patch.
But finish days gone, it's excellent and one of my favourites from last gen.
StateofMajora
Banned
If anything i’m just like the disappointed old man these days but damn I am still extremely excited for a number of games including prime 4, bayonetta 3, kirby etc.My comment was in general. All fanbases act the fucking same, then point fingers scratching their own assholes.
On the Sony side of things nothing excites me more than a returnal 2… has potential to be truly great.
I seriously view horizon as an modern assassin’s creed tier game and nothing will convince me that if it was multiplat it would garner this much hype and deep down we know it.
StateofMajora
Banned
Bear*Walken*the*Sweeper
Member
Oh well still playing it once get home from work anyway. 
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Not that I disagree because Forza did ship in a very good state, but Halo did not. It pretty much shipped in an incomplete state with missing coop and some really bad PC performance.
I dont know. It's hard to talk about these things definitively because we dont see the effects of such decisions until years down the road, but HFW was in development at Sonys biggest studio for five long years. Its surprising to see it get shipped in such a janky state. Like whats another three months when you have already taken 60? Unless the extra 3 months make you miss the fiscal year.
PaintTinJr
Member
Now I think about it, It is interesting that not everyone is affected and it is in the 60fps mode; especially as Vincent is using a professional reference monitor with sharpening disabled - which probably has sub-13.3ms gamma response which is allowing him to observe the fluctuating/shimmering of full screen brightness with HDR enabled, and sees the changes on the graph.
So maybe the reason that this issue made it through QA is that the TVs having the issue might just be ones with very low latency in HDR mode and so the TVs are tracking these frame by frame brightness changes rather than averaging brightness across 3 frames which should keeping it from shimmering. It would also explain why he could do a video with settings to alleviate the issue, because presumably raising the brightness of the black level and lowering contrast - at the expense of contrast ratio and deep blacks - would move the position on the gamma curve at which the fluctuations oscillate, maybe keeping them more white saturated so the fluctuation disappears in two light tones, instead of a dark and bright tone.
So maybe the reason that this issue made it through QA is that the TVs having the issue might just be ones with very low latency in HDR mode and so the TVs are tracking these frame by frame brightness changes rather than averaging brightness across 3 frames which should keeping it from shimmering. It would also explain why he could do a video with settings to alleviate the issue, because presumably raising the brightness of the black level and lowering contrast - at the expense of contrast ratio and deep blacks - would move the position on the gamma curve at which the fluctuations oscillate, maybe keeping them more white saturated so the fluctuation disappears in two light tones, instead of a dark and bright tone.
april6e
Member
I'm not interested in the console/PC wars here, just sharing what has gone best for me. Play however you want, don't care.
With a PS5 and LG C1 OLED, resolution is the better experience for me. I am surprised to say that considering the fact that since I got a gaming PC 2 years ago and have been playing pretty much every game in 60fps, it is nigh impossible to back to 30fps. It feels godawful (except when I'm forced to on the Switch).
This game's performance mode (60fps) however looks exceedingly terrible. I don't know what's going on, since the first game looked and played like a dream and was on much weaker PS4 Pro hardware. The Digital Foundry review was correct. The resolution mode takes a while to get used to and you have to tweak a bunch of settings in the game and your tv to make it bearable, but the graphics are night and day and the locked in 30fps makes it more bearable than the shaky 60fps in the performance mode.
This is the first game I have ever experienced where the resolution mode was the better choice (although neither mode is preferable. 30fps still sucks hard) and hopefully they are able to look into providing a dynamic mode that gives us a balance between the two. For example, maybe a 50fps mode. PC gamers will be the ultimate winners when they get the game in a year or two and get the best of both worlds.
With a PS5 and LG C1 OLED, resolution is the better experience for me. I am surprised to say that considering the fact that since I got a gaming PC 2 years ago and have been playing pretty much every game in 60fps, it is nigh impossible to back to 30fps. It feels godawful (except when I'm forced to on the Switch).
This game's performance mode (60fps) however looks exceedingly terrible. I don't know what's going on, since the first game looked and played like a dream and was on much weaker PS4 Pro hardware. The Digital Foundry review was correct. The resolution mode takes a while to get used to and you have to tweak a bunch of settings in the game and your tv to make it bearable, but the graphics are night and day and the locked in 30fps makes it more bearable than the shaky 60fps in the performance mode.
This is the first game I have ever experienced where the resolution mode was the better choice (although neither mode is preferable. 30fps still sucks hard) and hopefully they are able to look into providing a dynamic mode that gives us a balance between the two. For example, maybe a 50fps mode. PC gamers will be the ultimate winners when they get the game in a year or two and get the best of both worlds.
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People are mixing up two different things. The apparent darkening of the screen when moving is not in the 60fps mode. It appears less in the 60fps mode. The darkening of the grass/screen is not the shimmering issue which has been fixed.
The darkening of the screen is a relatively simple issue, but depending on their engine pipeline might be tricky to solve.
Modern games use a range of light far beyond what a display can show - it's entirely linear, and then at the end of the process this is tonemapped where all the values are brought down into the visible range, setting the overall contrast and also the peak white point for HDR.
The issue comes from motion blur being calculated after the tonemapped HDR image is encoded - so when you take a pixel thats got a value of 1.2 vs the original un-tonemapped 20 (for the sake of simplicity, 1=white here) and blur it against something dark, it finds a new value somewhere in between, dimming the white point.
If motion blur is calculated before tonemapping, the ultra bright points of the linear image burn through any blurring and retain their true value. then you tonemap, and everything looks as it should.
Games that fake HDR dont have this issue, because they pop out the higher dynamic range as a post process anyway.
If they really cant reverse the order of the process, what they might have to do is spit out a frame buffer channel of the original peaks above 1 during tonemapping, then after the motion blur is done use that as a guide to do post-process 'faked' HDR (from an accurate reference) to pop the highlights back out to the correct value - which should leave them stable.
Modern games use a range of light far beyond what a display can show - it's entirely linear, and then at the end of the process this is tonemapped where all the values are brought down into the visible range, setting the overall contrast and also the peak white point for HDR.
The issue comes from motion blur being calculated after the tonemapped HDR image is encoded - so when you take a pixel thats got a value of 1.2 vs the original un-tonemapped 20 (for the sake of simplicity, 1=white here) and blur it against something dark, it finds a new value somewhere in between, dimming the white point.
If motion blur is calculated before tonemapping, the ultra bright points of the linear image burn through any blurring and retain their true value. then you tonemap, and everything looks as it should.
Games that fake HDR dont have this issue, because they pop out the higher dynamic range as a post process anyway.
If they really cant reverse the order of the process, what they might have to do is spit out a frame buffer channel of the original peaks above 1 during tonemapping, then after the motion blur is done use that as a guide to do post-process 'faked' HDR (from an accurate reference) to pop the highlights back out to the correct value - which should leave them stable.
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PaintTinJr
Member
I was meaning the darkening is a full screen brightness shimmering, because it presumably happens because the summed intensity values of one frame and the next change significantly enough for the gamma response to result in lowering and raising the panel brightness per frame, or every few frames. Which might still be the result of the models that were previously pixel shimmering altering the collective frame intensities between frames, but I'm just hypothesising as the root cause.
Chris_Rivera
Member
And so will I…once they release an adequate patch or even the PC version. Patience is a virtue.Oh well still playing it once get home from work anyway.
Chris_Rivera
Member
Haven’t experienced anything like this outside of HFW.
Feel like I read about hdr being broken every big release