BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Show me the evidence, and I'll never touch this game.
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"The Last Night" (Milkshake Duck incarnate) E3 Trailer [XBO/Win10/Steam 2018]
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Show me the evidence, and I'll never touch this game.
TyrantGuardian
Member
Obviously there are plenty of dumb people and even movements within feminism that are problematic, especially when it comes to trans people (and things like BDSM and other things that are on the surface easily butt heads with feminism if you haven't really thought about it - not to compare it to trans people, just a quick digression). This doesn't mean that feminism should be discredited, it simply means that there needs to be a dialogue with those parts of the movement that are dumb fucking idiots. Where I live, feminism is incredibly inclusive when it comes to LGBTQ rights, but that obviously might not be the case in generally more conservative areas of the world.
It is more than readily established that GamerGate is specifically a hate movement designed to bully women out of the games industry. These developers are directly supporting and implementing the core ideals of that movement into their game. What more are you asking for in order to boycott them? Them starting to murder people?
NoblesseOblige
Banned
Feminism is not a single ideology, and while yes, some do have issues within in regards to transgender and minority members there are many others who are attempting to correct them.
The thread is full of evidence, too much for me to quickly collect, but read the first post and look up what "Gamergate" actually is.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
No, that's not gonna work. I've written anti-Gamergate essays at an academic level with sources. Believe me, I know. I hate Gamergate.
And I know enough to know that Gamergate is full of a lot of misguided young conservatives who never harassed anyone who just wish feminists would let them have boobs in games. I pity their ignorance, but I don't call them hateable bigots unless they actually say they are against equality.
Everyone who directly participated or promoted Gamergate's harassment can fuck off into space, however.
There's a lot of stuff to suggest that he's full into the movement, but think about this: if a small indie group makes a game, and a high quality game that clearly requires a lot of effort and time, and then explicitly chooses to tie it to Gamergate, to the point of wanting to add gamergate characters like Vivian James to the game, what are the chances that they're not part of the extreme part of Gamergate? That they're not aware of it?
It's not reasonable to give them the benefit of the doubt.
It's not reasonable to give them the benefit of the doubt.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Okay, I get that. If they are fully aware of Gamergate's totality, then I hear you. That's condemnable.
What's the Vivian James thing? I didn't see that one.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
Yeah they lost any benefit of the doubt from me when he explicitly requested if he could use Vivian James. That is either the actions of a total idiot who I don't trust to create a coherent piece of work, or that of a full blown supporter. You don't just ask to use something without attempting to understand all the implications associated with that something. And it's going to take a hell of a lot of work in reversing that mistake before I'll feel a purchase from me is deserved.
Feminism is a pretty cut-and-dry concept. If you're opposed to it then you're against equality based on gender.
It is perfectly fine to disagree with the narratives pushed by some of the leaders of the movement, that is a completely different circumstance. Random members of the movement might spout an idea or concept which isn't in line with the actual makeup of the true movement itself. You can see a fairly common example in how random white american feminists try to tell practicing Muslim women they are inherently oppressed, or the other end where a random sect of older more conservative feminists try to tell women to cover up more because they're feeding into their own objectification. Forgive the generalizations, I very specifically mean random. Not being in line with those, or perhaps the shortcomings of the broader groups under the umbrella, is not the same as being anti-feminist. That's important to note before you identify yourself or your feelings toward the movement. The movement itself is pretty basic, but there are a lot of people perpetuating it which are misinformed, misguided, or some similar failure. Not agreeing with them, or feeling unable to identify with those specific individuals isn't the same thing as not being a feminist. There are a lot of denominations of a similar idea which is unfortunate because it breaks up consistency in the narrative.
REGARDLESS: I haven't been following the thread since the original news of the game's creator went live and this place exploded. Has there been any relevant information to keep in mind about the actual game itself? That's what I really want to know. It looked really cool but I was disappointed to learn what I did. Is it an anti-feminist game or something? I'm far more interested in that than contributing to a massive explosion of back-and-forth internet politics which isn't essentially related to the content the thread's actually about. I hope the game isn't what it seems like based on how this thread is unraveled, I really wanted it to be good when I saw it.
Yeah.
TheSkullPrince
Member
This game looks so cool! Day 1!
*Reads about the designer's shitty viewspoints about feminism*
FUCK NO NEVERMIND
*Reads about the designer's shitty viewspoints about feminism*
FUCK NO NEVERMIND
Damn. I read the description about human's lack of creativity and stuff like that and expression through purchases and that sort of world and I was hopeful that was far more in line with the actual makeup of the game. Can we be confident that that tweet is really representative of the current product? I wonder how old it is and if anything has changed. I think I could get past his own ideals for the sake of the game and enjoying myself because I'm sure plenty of awful people have contributed to the development of games I've loved, but if the game itself isn't in a direction I'd enjoy it would be something to definitely abandon.
Edit: If this the all the case, why would anyone take the risk to put this up as very visible part of the conference? Wouldn't that be potentially poor PR?
As far as we know, the game's premise is largely based on the idea that the womenz running amok created a dystopia. That is, at least, how the creator described it. There has been some Sean Spicer-tier damage control from both the publisher and the developer, but there's no reason to assume at this point it isn't what it looks like.
Weltall Zero
Member
Excellent point indeed.
Would anyone be surprised to find he's with the 15% that don't believe in gender equality? Actually I've just now realized the poll about gender equality is useless, as most people actually against it would probably still answer they are for it (including tiny-handed orangutans).
So either a bigot, or someone against gays, immigrants, and female empowerment. Thanks for clearing that up!
The shitstorm around movements like feminism is the perfect example of either simple minded idiots or agenda driven opportunists taking the inevitable sects/arms of said movement that will always present themselves (albeit always in a minority position) and conflating them with the entire concept of the movement itself to score cheap points. To put it in perspective from an outside viewpoint, it's like saying Kurdish Sunnis are just as bad as Wahhabi Muslims just because they both identify with Islam at the most basic level.
Yeah, all indications are that the game is still about this. The writers all still actively support gamergate stuff, even after the PR 'apology' they gave a few days ago.
Maybe they'll rewrite it to deal with the current backlash, but I doubt it.
They probably managed to pull the wool over Microsoft's eyes. They seem to know enough to not be upfront about the things they believe in official PR, the whole thing was a surprise even to people who've been keeping up with the game for years.
Vivian James wont be in this game according to Soret.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
Or either their concept of "gender equality" is not real (the famous "we already reached gender equality") or thier concept of feminism is wrong.
This dosn't change what feminism is or what stands for.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Hmm. Well this Vivian James thing seems to me to be a symbol of being really into the #GG movement, which wasn't really in dispute after the use of the hashtag in tweets.
A caveat: I don't see this as a demonstration of awareness/support for the harassment wing of #GG, so I wouldn't call this evidence that its in support of its truly bigoted side. The thing with Gamergate was that it was a big tent of people who all had their own idea of what it was, many of whom weren't participating in the harassment and anti-equality activities of the movement. Some truly thought they were advocating for freedom of speech in gaming topics etc. And just being really into Gamergate doesn't mean you understood what it added up to (online harassment mob) from the outside.
But the fact that this is clearly a love letter to #GG as a whole does move my needle a bit, just because anyone duped by Gamergate is a loser. Celebrating it as a movement is so gauche and I hate any symbolism in support of it. I wouldn't say the creator of TLN is an anti-woman alt-right bigot necessarily. But I would say that supporting Gamergate with this love letter is the action of a loser-geek who joined a silly mob without knowing fuck all about what their mob was doing to the world (and to individual lives).
In short, I don't know if TLN is representative as the bigoted hater wing of Gamergate... but I will say it is at least representative of the loser wing of Gamergate joiners.
I don't know if that's boycott worthy (direct harassment and anti-women views would be), but I'm certainly not a fan of glorifying this big dumb "sports riot" that is GG.
He doesn't come out fully in support of the bigoted side of Gamergate because the alt-right is rarely so upfront, but there's tons of weird things that suggest it. Like his argument against science fiction artificial wombs isn't something typical like "it's unnatural", it's "it will let women continue to work and drink".
Exactly, because they're anonymous keyboard warrior cowards who would rather throw cheap shots from the bleachers than put their name to what they're espousing.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Could be. Make no mistake, #GG support implies "bigot or stupid". I've been giving the benefit of the doubt to the fact that he could be stupid. I wouldn't necessarily boycott a stupid person.....
At the end of the day, not good either way.
i'm going to guess he uses the term "degenerates" often. maybe even "moral degenerates" for extra flavor
TyrantGuardian
Member
I mean, even if they remove every last vestige of anti-feminist garbage, I personally would still boycott the game. I don't want to give my money to GamerGate supporters if I can help it. Conversely, anyone with the courage to speak out against said movement makes me much more interested in supporting their releases.
MrMysterio
Member
This is very true, and critically investigating specific movements within feminism should be at the core of how to make sure feminism doesn't become the caricature GamerGaters want it so desperately to be in order to have a clear cut enemy to rile up against.
(As a quick example for criticism against certain aspects of mainstream feminism: What constitutes a real woman? - but that's a whole different topic).
But that's exactly the problem with the debate around The Last Night. What the dev and his gamergater pals suggest is a distorted, caricature version of feminism, which is a homogeneous movement without an ability of self-criticism ("What if feminism won?").
Trying to discuss feminism on those standards will always be a distorted conversation about things that don't actually exist like this in the real world.
(Another example would be the very broad sci-fi trope of "artificial wombs are unnatural" as cntr mentioned above - discussing these things on the level of The Last Night dev will never lead to anything more sophisticated than "It's bad!" / "It's good!").
My problem with the whole thing is how alive and well GamerGaters still are within the industry. How did this pass through the filters of industry leaders like Microsoft?
How did this get the level of support it has, when it's clearly been pitched in line with GamerGate ideology?
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
In fairness to Microsoft, I think it took the wisdom of the crowd to really deliver the Gamergate connection to most people. TLN was a darling of indie GAF threads for years.
Microsoft is not happy about this revelation, believe me.
if it looks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck, maybe it was duped into being a duck. you're giving a lot of leeway to someone whose vast amount of tweets suggest otherwise and even after this was all brought to light continues to like tweets of affirmation from gamergate schmucks. at this point there's no room to fall back on the "but ethics in gaming journalism" line, not that there really was to begin with.
PixelatedBookake
Junior Member
Sigh...yep this was me too. I don't wanna support shit like that.
And drinks milkshakes like a duck
lol, people really don't read anything before rushing to comment.
purseowner
Member
hey_it's_that_dog
benevolent sexism
Why would someone try to read a 76 page thread before posting a throwaway "looks good I want it" comment?
I guess the title does contain some intriguing wrinkles but I still don't expect anyone to be thinking that hard when they click a thread.
Edit: i take that last part back, milkshake duck is the only unusual thing in the title and if you don't know what that is then there is nothing outside of page count to indicate this thread has something important going on inside.
I guess the title does contain some intriguing wrinkles but I still don't expect anyone to be thinking that hard when they click a thread.
Edit: i take that last part back, milkshake duck is the only unusual thing in the title and if you don't know what that is then there is nothing outside of page count to indicate this thread has something important going on inside.
Apparently none lmao
Y'know, it really saddens me that this proves that many gamers really only decide their purchases primarily on graphics.
Then, once they get their hands on the game, and said game turns into a mess with clunky controls and an atrocious story (and even the graphics aren't as good), they'll swear not to get fooled again, only for the circle of hype culture to repeat all over again.
I dunno, I very specifically said that I hope the gameplay lives up to it. Meaning I was looking forward to see what the game actually was.
Claude Augario
Member
I know people don't like to read threads on NeoGAF but..
After 76 pages, my alarm bells would have went off. There has to be much more going on in this thread than people talking about the pritty graffix.
After 76 pages, my alarm bells would have went off. There has to be much more going on in this thread than people talking about the pritty graffix.
hey_it's_that_dog
benevolent sexism
This kind of game doesn't have amazing gameplay anyway so the graphics and atmosphere are understandably the major draw.
But yeah, keep on saying "I told you so" to that person you made up.
I said primarily. And I didn't specifically call out you, I was talking in general, which is true when you browse all the pages of this thread.
Nonsense, unless you have an extremely limited understanding of what constitues good gameplay.
I've met those people many times over the years, but ok, lol.
SomedayTheFire
Member
OP was already updated once. What more should they do?
PREC0GNITIVE
Member
Super stoked for this game!!!
Not too concerned about the creators remarks. Could be another Phil Fish for all I care. Great games are great games and that's why I come here
Not too concerned about the creators remarks. Could be another Phil Fish for all I care. Great games are great games and that's why I come here
Bubba_Sparks
Member
This game looks gr.... What the hell!
Super stoked for this game!!!
Not too concerned about the creators remarks. Could be another Phil Fish for all I care. Great games are great games and that's why I come here
Uhhhh, Phil Fish didn't insert his garbage thoughts into his game
purseowner
Member
Super stoked for this game!!!
Not too concerned about the creators remarks. Could be another Phil Fish for all I care. Great games are great games and that's why I come here
But Phil Fish wasn't a misogynist, a transphobe, a racist, or a homophobe. He just had mannerisms some heavily disliked him for.
Super stoked for this game!!!
Not too concerned about the creators remarks. Could be another Phil Fish for all I care. Great games are great games and that's why I come here
It's pretty amazing how we get this exact same post once every few posts, and the discussion just regurgitates. It's not about the creator's remarks. It's about the game being a gamergate wet dream. The creator's views are the premise of the game.
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