BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
They are explicitly anti-female equality.
Show me the evidence, and I'll never touch this game.
They are explicitly anti-female equality.
Feminism is a movement based on ideologies and despite what some people think it does not have a monopoly on/isnt the be-all end-all of gender equality. The movement has many issues which make me (especially as a transwoman) incredibly uncomfortable calling myself one. I don't dislike the idea of feminism but I dislike parts of the movement. I absolutely believe in gender equality. I am not a feminist. (Nor am I "anti-feminist"). I don't know how anyone can suggest that there isn't complexity to it.
I boycott specifically for hate and bigotry.
Feminism is a movement based on ideologies and despite what some people think it does not have a monopoly on/isnt the be-all end-all of gender equality. The movement has many issues which make me (especially as a transwoman) incredibly uncomfortable calling myself one. I don't dislike the idea of feminism but I dislike parts of the movement. I absolutely believe in gender equality. I am not a feminist. (Nor am I "anti-feminist"). I don't know how anyone can suggest that there isn't complexity to it.
The thread is full of evidence, too much for me to quickly collect, but read the first post and look up what "Gamergate" actually is.Show me the evidence, and I'll never touch this game.
The thread is full of evidence, but I suggest you read the first post and then look up what "Gamergate" actually is.
There's a lot of stuff to suggest that he's full into the movement, but think about this: if a small indie group makes a game, and a high quality game that clearly requires a lot of effort and time, and then explicitly chooses to tie it to Gamergate, to the point of wanting to add gamergate characters like Vivian James to the game, what are the chances that they're not part of the extreme part of Gamergate? That they're not aware of it?
It's not reasonable to give them the benefit of the doubt.
This thing:Okay, I get that. If they are fully aware of Gamergate's totality, then I hear you. That's condemnable.
What's the Vivian James thing? I didn't see that one.
Is it an anti-feminist game or something?
Yeah.
Yeah.
I hope the game isn't what it seems like based on how this thread is unraveled, I really wanted it to be good when I saw it.
Yup, agreed with the entire post, but I'd like to emphasize this point.
That statistic is an argument against this game, because it's exactly because of things like The Last Night that anti-feminist arguments got traction and the movement got its bad name. It proves that people should oppose shit like this even harder, because you can sneak in loads of awful propaganda under the cover of "opinion" or "criticism".
And this is hardly an imaginary worry, as the guy currently living in the White House should prove.
An anti-feminist could be a bigot. But it could also just be a conservative.
Yeah, all indications are that the game is still about this. The writers all still actively support gamergate stuff, even after the PR 'apology' they gave a few days ago.Damn. I read the description about human's lack of creativity and stuff like that and expression through purchases and that sort of world and I was hopeful that was far more in line with the actual makeup of the game. Can we be confident that that tweet is really representative of the current product? I wonder how old it is and if anything has changed. I think I could get past his own ideals for the sake of the game and enjoying myself because I'm sure plenty of awful people have contributed to the development of games I've loved, but if the game itself isn't in a direction I'd enjoy it would be something to definitely abandon.
They probably managed to pull the wool over Microsoft's eyes. They seem to know enough to not be upfront about the things they believe in official PR, the whole thing was a surprise even to people who've been keeping up with the game for years.Edit: If this the all the case, why would anyone take the risk to put this up as very visible part of the conference? Wouldn't that be potentially poor PR?
Okay, I get that. If they are fully aware of Gamergate's totality, then I hear you. That's condemnable.
What's the Vivian James thing? I didn't see that one.
85% of Americans believe in gender quality, while 18% identify as feminists.
http://thelala.com/believe-womens-equality-identify-as-feminist/
A full 65% of Americans don't see the two concepts as one and the same. So it is a complex middle ground issue, unfortunately.
This thing:
He doesn't come out fully in support of the bigoted side of Gamergate because the alt-right is rarely so upfront
He doesn't come out fully in support of the bigoted side of Gamergate because the alt-right is rarely so upfront, but there's tons of weird things that suggest it. Like his argument against science fiction artificial wombs isn't something typical like "it's unnatural", it's "it will let women continue to work and drink".
He doesn't come out fully in support of the bigoted side of Gamergate because the alt-right is rarely so upfront, but there's tons of weird things that suggest it. Like his argument against science fiction artificial wombs isn't something typical like "it's unnatural", it's "it will let women continue to work and drink".
Feminism is a movement based on ideologies and despite what some people think it does not have a monopoly on/isnt the be-all end-all of gender equality. The movement has many issues which make me (especially as a transwoman) incredibly uncomfortable calling myself one. I don't dislike the idea of feminism but I dislike parts of the movement. I absolutely believe in gender equality. I am not a feminist. (Nor am I "anti-feminist"). I don't know how anyone can suggest that there isn't complexity to it.
In fairness to Microsoft, I think it took the wisdom of the crowd to really deliver the Gamergate connection to most people. TLN was a darling of indie GAF threads for years.This is very true, and critically investigating specific movements within feminism should be at the core of how to make sure feminism doesn't become the caricature GamerGaters want it so desperately to be in order to have a clear cut enemy to rile up against.
(As a quick example for criticism against certain aspects of mainstream feminism: What constitutes a real woman? - but that's a whole different topic).
But that's exactly the problem with the debate around The Last Night. What the dev and his gamergater pals suggest is a distorted, caricature version of feminism, which is a homogeneous movement without an ability of self-criticism ("What if feminism won?").
Trying to discuss feminism on those standards will always be a distorted conversation about things that don't actually exist like this in the real world.
(Another example would be the very broad sci-fi trope of "artificial wombs are unnatural" as cntr mentioned above - discussing these things on the level of The Last Night dev will never lead to anything more sophisticated than "It's bad!" / "It's good!").
My problem with the whole thing is how alive and well GamerGaters still are within the industry. How did this pass through the filters of industry leaders like Microsoft?
How did this get the level of support it has, when it's clearly been pitched in line with GamerGate ideology?
Hmm. Well this Vivian James thing seems to me to be a symbol of being really into the #GG movement, which wasn't really in dispute after the use of the hashtag in tweets.
A caveat: I don't see this as a demonstration of awareness/support for the harassment wing of #GG, so I wouldn't call this evidence that its in support of its truly bigoted side. The thing with Gamergate was that it was a big tent of people who all had their own idea of what it was, many of whom weren't participating in the harassment and anti-equality activities of the movement. Some truly thought they were advocating for freedom of speech in gaming topics etc. And just being really into Gamergate doesn't mean you understood what it added up to (online harassment mob) from the outside.
But the fact that this is clearly a love letter to #GG as a whole does move my needle a bit, just because anyone duped by Gamergate is a loser. Celebrating it as a movement is so gauche and I hate any symbolism in support of it. I wouldn't say the creator of TLN is an anti-woman alt-right bigot necessarily. But I would say that supporting Gamergate with this love letter is the action of a loser-geek who joined a silly mob without knowing fuck all about what their mob was doing to the world (and to individual lives).
In short, I don't know if TLN is representative as the bigoted hater wing of Gamergate... but I will say it is at least representative of the loser wing of Gamergate joiners.
I don't know if that's boycott worthy (direct harassment and anti-women views would be), but I'm certainly not a fan of glorifying this big dumb "sports riot" that is GG.
This game looks so cool! Day 1!
*Reads about the designer's shitty viewspoints about feminism*
FUCK NO NEVERMIND
if it looks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck, maybe it was duped into being a duck. you're giving a lot of leeway to someone whose vast amount of tweets suggest otherwise and even after this was all brought to light continues to like tweets of affirmation from gamergate schmucks. at this point there's no room to fall back on the "but ethics in gaming journalism" line, not that there really was to begin with.
The art style is incredible and the concept rather interesting and fresh. Day one, pending some more gameplay footage.
Oh shit this game looks beautiful. Hopefully the gameplay can live up to the aesthetics because gaddamn
The art style is incredible and the concept rather interesting and fresh. Day one, pending some more gameplay footage.
Oh shit this game looks beautiful. Hopefully the gameplay can live up to the aesthetics because gaddamn
Welcome to the thread. How many pages did you read?
Welcome to the thread. How many pages did you read?
Y'know, it really saddens me that this proves that many gamers really only decide their purchases primarily on graphics.
Then, once they get their hands on the game, and said game turns into a mess with clunky controls and an atrocious story (and even the graphics aren't as good), they'll swear not to get fooled again, only for the circle of hype culture to repeat all over again.
This kind of game doesn't have amazing gameplay anyway so the graphics and atmosphere are understandably the major draw.Y'know, it really saddens me that this proves that many gamers really only decide their purchases primarily on graphics.
Then, once they get their hands on the game, and said game turns into a mess with clunky controls and an atrocious story (and even the graphics aren't as good), they'll swear not to get fooled again, only for the circle of hype culture to repeat all over again.
I dunno, I very specifically said that I hope the gameplay lives up to it. Meaning I was looking forward to see what the game actually was.
This kind of game doesn't have amazing gameplay anyway so the graphics and atmosphere are understandably the major draw.
But yeah, keep on saying "I told you so" to that person you made up.
I mean that's what the game is about.I didn't even look at the page count I just watched the trailer. Then after I posted I saw the top of the page I posted at was talking about feminism and anti-feminism and of course it is
OP or mods should really update the OP or someone should make a new thread.
Super stoked for this game!!!
Not too concerned about the creators remarks. Could be another Phil Fish for all I care. Great games are great games and that's why I come here
Super stoked for this game!!!
Not too concerned about the creators remarks. Could be another Phil Fish for all I care. Great games are great games and that's why I come here
Super stoked for this game!!!
Not too concerned about the creators remarks. Could be another Phil Fish for all I care. Great games are great games and that's why I come here