newtypepilot
Member
It's funny that CoD has autoaim which IMO, is much worse than this smart steering and people don't complain about it.
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Jimquisition: Mario, Take The Wheel
- Thread starter jokkir
- Start date
Welp, there's the answer to that.
Let me explain a bit about behavior and how we learn. I have a degree in Psychology focused in behavior. All behavior is essentially fueled by reinforcement. If the behavior gets you reinforcement or avoids things that keep you from getting reinforcement then that behavior increases.
The fastest way for a new behavior to be learned is for that behavior to be reinforced every time, but such reinforcement schedules are also the quickest for the behavior to be abandoned once it stops producing reinforcement. The strongest, most resilient behaviors are those that are only reinforced some of the time. Thus the best way to teach something is to lavish reinforcement on a person for every correct response at first and then gradually switch over to less frequent reinforcement.
Now, the question is, what is the main source of reinforcement in games? We have the in-game stuff like items, points, sound effects, etc. But we also have social praise. Even if we don't interact with others while playing a game, you're thinking about what others would think of what you're doing and giving yourself imaginary praise for your accomplishments.
Having an easier mode in games allows players to learn how to play a game where they get reinforcement from the game more often, so they are more likely to stick with it and keep building up their skills through experience. They can set their own pace for when they can move on to more difficult challenges fueled by social pressure. Any reinforcer will eventually reach a satiation point if you get it too much. Like if your reinforcement is food eventually you get full and food won't be reinforcing to you. So if a task is too easy eventually you'll get bored through satiation, which naturally leads to increasing the difficulty for yourself.
So I'm in favor of features that increase accessibility like these as long as they are an option. The way Nintendo's been handling it is great. They increase the accessibility for less skilled players while keeping the games geared towards skilled players. In fact, if anything, Nintendo's accessibility options have allowed them to make their games MORE challenging by relieving themselves of the burden of designing the games themselves around novices. Other games do it the wrong way; by dumbing down the games so that anyone can enjoy them but removing all difficulty for everyone as well.
Eh, PC "elitists" complain about console gamers all the time. Besides, some sort of auto-aim is absolutely needed for a joystick. And everyone's on a level playing field as well.
I want an entire 20 minute long video of him doing that :lol
Icedburden
Member
Ill never understand why Souls fans believe there shouldnt be an easy mode, or at least normal. It affects you in no way. If people want the true experience, select the 'default' difficulty. In what way will an slightly easier difficulty rob you of the games charm? It all boils down to people wanting to feel special about beating a 'hard' game. Which, at the end of the day, doesnt matter.
Totally unrelated but this actually gives me an idea for Mario Maker.
I just posted this to say thank you for that.
Your point is general so I don't think you see what I mean but still, thank you.
Its pretty dumb that we still have people pushing the narrative that Dark Souls doesn't come with an easy mode baked in
its called Sorceries Pyromancy and Miracles
there is a class that starts with all three and they're almost always the best starting classes lmao. Pyromancy requires literally zero stats aside from literally only levelling up a weapon that class starts with or that you obtain hilariously early in the game.
Dark Souls 1 even has the master key you can start with.
Also there is a punishment/disincentive in some of the Nintendo games for even entering a level with the golden leaf spawned
SS/AA is great for kids / accessibility though
I already ran it once for like 3 hours while i was watching stuff to farm the stupid coins
its great
its called Sorceries Pyromancy and Miracles
there is a class that starts with all three and they're almost always the best starting classes lmao. Pyromancy requires literally zero stats aside from literally only levelling up a weapon that class starts with or that you obtain hilariously early in the game.
Dark Souls 1 even has the master key you can start with.
Also there is a punishment/disincentive in some of the Nintendo games for even entering a level with the golden leaf spawned
SS/AA is great for kids / accessibility though
I already ran it once for like 3 hours while i was watching stuff to farm the stupid coins
its great
What I'm saying here is that unless you put the equivalent to a "Defeat Gwyn" button Dark Souls, as it is right now, is so complex in its controls that if you have enough difficulty controlling games to need Smart Steering in Mario Kart there's nothing the developers can do in terms of stat and animation tweaks to help. My entire point is that those who equate smart steering to a Souls easy mode are wrong, not that a Souls easy mode is wrong. I find that using an option aimed at helping the disabled, young and highly inexperienced to make an argument for an option aimed at helping the able, yet relatively skilled (i.e. most people here) to be disingenuous in such a thread as this because they aren't the same thing.
Pop-O-Matic
Banned
That's because no one played Wipeout HD.
That would work, yeah. Making it so that you can't fall of ledges unless it's for a platforming section would fix a lot of issues as well. If they did that whilst still keeping the high damage output of enemies it could work really well, you still need reactions to survive but it isn't as obtuse as before and you won't fall fowl to random deaths due to an inability to fully control your character. Of course there are other things that should be done, remappable buttons being one of those things.
Pilot assist was good, but there were often times I felt like I was fighting with it. It felt like I was a magnetic ball and the rails were the same polar end of the magnet pushing me around. That's probably the issue of the narrow tracks and frequent bottle necks though. I'd love to see further refinement of it for that kind of series though. That stuff is always welcomed.
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
I tend to watch the videos for the humor since they are funny. That's the primary point I want addressed.
joecanada
Member
No it's just a fake episode he'll come out with the " Mario kart is pointless you just drive in circles" episode soon
/S
In a house with young children, it is understandable that it defaults 'on' for their sake. They won't very well know to dig into options to turn it on, nor do parents want to have an endless stream of summons to turn it on for them.
Of course it's a slight inconvenience for the hardcore, but one day you will all learn to appreciate the little conveniences such as this when you have kids. It's a smart move I'd argue (and I don't have kids...but I get it. I totally get it.)
Don't you know? People with the PSN trophies for completion get all the hotties.
Azure Dream
Member
It's a small point, but the earlier "New" Mario games did punish you a little bit for the Super Guide and similar helpers showing up at all, even if you didn't take them. Losing 5 lives in a Mario level doesn't necessarily mean you're bad at it, it means you can't screw around and experiment without keeping track of how many lives you've lost.
Mechanized
Member
Aim assist(completely different from the hack that is autoaim) is necessary for controllers. I believe you can turn it off in one of the older games, maybe Black Ops 1? The game becomes completely unplayable if you do. Every FPS on console has aim assist to some degree.
J
Jpop
Unconfirmed Member
I just want to point out this is wrong. Action and Reaction can be enforced by experience, but behavior is more encompassing than simple action/reaction.
i assume the people complaining about easy modes also want nintendo to stick around for the future. why would they get mad at nintendo for wanting to make it easier for new players to get into console gaming? like it or not they are the ones that will keep nintendo around so you can continue to enjoy their games.
Accessibility features is fine, but you have to do it right, otherwise it hurts everyone who plays.
The Dark Souls problem is really complex because it's single player/multiplayer. So you really have to solve two entire sets of problems that affects everyone before you try adding accessibility features. I've thought about a NG-1 mode that's really walled off from everything else (no invasions, co-op is available, damage changes, etc.) that won't allow you to go to NG and so on. But that in and of itself creates a new problem since you harm players that may want to continue. Even if you allowed them to continue, starting NG with high powered gear isn't good, either.
MK8D's accessibility features are great for all kinds of players. Quite a few people use auto acceleration for 200cc to make it easier on themselves because it is very hard on your hands.
The Dark Souls problem is really complex because it's single player/multiplayer. So you really have to solve two entire sets of problems that affects everyone before you try adding accessibility features. I've thought about a NG-1 mode that's really walled off from everything else (no invasions, co-op is available, damage changes, etc.) that won't allow you to go to NG and so on. But that in and of itself creates a new problem since you harm players that may want to continue. Even if you allowed them to continue, starting NG with high powered gear isn't good, either.
MK8D's accessibility features are great for all kinds of players. Quite a few people use auto acceleration for 200cc to make it easier on themselves because it is very hard on your hands.
Mechanized
Member
Sorceries have been trash since DS1 and have not been improved since getting hard nerfed after DeS. Miracles aren't much better. You're going to be pretty deep in to be casting CHSM or some shit that's worth it. The master key will undoubtedly get a less skilled player into a ton of shit. What do you think is the benefit to that? Regardless that's just DS1. DS2 and 3 are less forgiving to casters.
Pyromancy is good and strong, but it's not particularly obvious that it is actually better than the other casting alternatives. Especially for a new/unskilled player.
The Greek Freak
Member
If souls had a customizable difficulty where the bosses were harder and all the boring trash in between was even more brain dead easy? I'd be in heaven and stop quitting every souls game besides DS2 halfway through.
Emperor_Uriel
Member
I mean yeah, Jim is right that these sorts of "easy modes" are ideal for disabled gamers and that's really all you need to say to justify their existence.
But the counterargument to "Souls needs an easy mode too!" has always been "It has one, it's called co-op," and that's still true. If you summon a competent group of players in any Souls game, you really won't have to do anything against 90% of the bosses. Unlike Mario Kart, Souls co-op is even easier in many cases because the more skilled players are doing the playing for you.
But the counterargument to "Souls needs an easy mode too!" has always been "It has one, it's called co-op," and that's still true. If you summon a competent group of players in any Souls game, you really won't have to do anything against 90% of the bosses. Unlike Mario Kart, Souls co-op is even easier in many cases because the more skilled players are doing the playing for you.
Lionel Richie
Member
I don't understand the Souls thing. The point of this feature in Mario Kart is to help disabled people or younger gamers to be able to enjoy the game, and that's downright awesome since Mario Kart is by nature a game that matches that idea of everyone being able to enjoy. It's a party game after all and it's easier to adapt Mario Kart. I honestly have a hard time trying to figure out a control design that would make Souls adaptable for that scenario. How would it work?
I realise for experienced Souls players these things seem like massive features that make the game much easier, but as someone who isn't good at Souls games, they're really, really not.
There's lots of things that could be offered as an Easy mode that I'd greatly appreciate that wouldn't require a lot of dev time; more frequent bonfires for example, or the ability to start the game at a higher level. More charges in my Estus flask, even. These are the kinds of things that players who struggle would benefit from.
I see people say this a lot, but if we're being honest we all know that "have someone help you/do it for you" isn't really an Easy mode. It's basically just a high-tech version of passing the controller to your big brother.
No, it's just that, especially with human behavior, the contingencies causing behavior can get really complex. For example, we can reinforce ourselves through internal dialog. My career focuses on understanding the causes of behavior and manipulating those causes to change behavior.
ShironRedshift
Member
Fantastic video, Jim. Pretty hard to disagree with anything at all. Although, like someone else said, I have to disagree with you when you said that Smart Steering should be disabled by default. As they said, if someone wants Smart Steering disabled and is annoyed by it, they're probably capable of figuring out how to do so on their own, whereas those who need it (such as younger children, less skilled players, parents not terribly familiar with the game who nonetheless want to play it with their kids and make sure they have as much fun as possible doing so) might never figure out that the option even exists, what it does, or how to enable it if it were disabled by default. So it starting enabled makes perfect sense to me.
That said, it should definitely be made more obvious that the feature exists like the first time a player gets into the race, so that they can decide what they actually want to do with it and know what's going on, but I don't think it starting enabled is itself a bad thing.
In much the same way, the way say... New Super Mario Bros U handled this was also terrible for quite similar reasons. It's "easy mode", if you will, was instead of the Invincible Tanooki Suit in stuff like 3D World the Super Guide. Basically, if you fail a single level 5 times or whatever the threshold was (I don't remember), the game gave you the option to skip the level by watching an AI-controlled Luigi go through the level at an absolutely glaaaaaacial pace. It technically lets the player beat the level, true, the same way that relying on co-ops and summons and can a player through Souls games. But it's humiliating, especially since it's really slow and just drags on and you can't skip it at all if you actually want the level, doesn't help the player actually get better at the level at all, gives the player no input and just isn't fun at all, in comparison to stuff like the Gold Leaf in 3D World, which at least lets the player do something and have some degree of input and have some fun.
A good easy mode for a Souls game would similarly be something that actually lets the player do all that stuff on their own, and just learn the mechanics in a more forgiving fashion. Y'know, stuff like perhaps slowing down the boss's movement and attack animation speed a tad to make it easier for less experienced players to get it in the habit of picking up on animation hints for upcoming attacks and taking appropriate action. That or stuff like, as long as the player remains offline/there are no Invaders in their world, giving them a few seconds of invincibility after a roll so they can more easily get used to mechanics such as correctly distancing themselves from various attacks and getting used to stamina management in a less stressful/punishing environment since they'll be fine even if they mess up a bit and can do better next time.
To be clear, these are just examples I came up with off the top of my head. They're by no means meant to e perfect answers or anything, but are just the type of things I think of when it comes to stuff that could make the game more accessible to more players with a hypothetical "Easy Mode" without completely compromising the basic gameplay loops or mechanics in any significant way.
Co-op/friendly spirits does none of that, and are thus not really a substitute for a theoretical easy mode. Co-op in particular is a lackluster option, since, unless I'm mistake, there's no local co-op settings, meaning that co-op in no way say helps a parent play alongside their kid to help teach them the ropes unless they like buy two different systems to do so and play in different rooms of the house. On the other hand, an easy mode that does some of the things I would does make it more easier for younger or disabled players to more easily learn the ropes and enjoy the game, while causing absolutely no harm to no someone like you since it would be an easily ignoreable option having zero impact on your playthroughs.
Like, I just don't get it... Take Bayonetta 2 for instance. That has a mode that like just lets people play through the game using just one button. But does the existence of that mode take away from the enjoyment of players going through the game on the highest difficulty and trying to get Pure Platinum scores on every level they possibly can? Not at all! People still have a blast doing that shit, despite the accessibility options the game has for younger/less skill/disabled players, because that stuff literally impacts them in no way, the same way a theoretical Easy Mode in a Souls game would impact those who choose not to use it in no way whatsoever.
That said, it should definitely be made more obvious that the feature exists like the first time a player gets into the race, so that they can decide what they actually want to do with it and know what's going on, but I don't think it starting enabled is itself a bad thing.
That's the thing though and why it's really not a good answer for an easy mode, because it's just someone else playing the game for you. That's not really helping you learn the game at all, because whoever your playing with is beating up on the boss for you, which doesn't help you to really learn the mechanics, learn the boss's tells (which animation indicates which attack is about to come), or really get better in the game in any particular way. Same with summoning friendly spirits--them beating up on a boss doesn't help you learn anything. And it's not very satisfying, precisely because, as you yourself put it, you aren't doing anything and it's not fun to basically just be standing around doing nothing while everyone else does the work for you.
In much the same way, the way say... New Super Mario Bros U handled this was also terrible for quite similar reasons. It's "easy mode", if you will, was instead of the Invincible Tanooki Suit in stuff like 3D World the Super Guide. Basically, if you fail a single level 5 times or whatever the threshold was (I don't remember), the game gave you the option to skip the level by watching an AI-controlled Luigi go through the level at an absolutely glaaaaaacial pace. It technically lets the player beat the level, true, the same way that relying on co-ops and summons and can a player through Souls games. But it's humiliating, especially since it's really slow and just drags on and you can't skip it at all if you actually want the level, doesn't help the player actually get better at the level at all, gives the player no input and just isn't fun at all, in comparison to stuff like the Gold Leaf in 3D World, which at least lets the player do something and have some degree of input and have some fun.
A good easy mode for a Souls game would similarly be something that actually lets the player do all that stuff on their own, and just learn the mechanics in a more forgiving fashion. Y'know, stuff like perhaps slowing down the boss's movement and attack animation speed a tad to make it easier for less experienced players to get it in the habit of picking up on animation hints for upcoming attacks and taking appropriate action. That or stuff like, as long as the player remains offline/there are no Invaders in their world, giving them a few seconds of invincibility after a roll so they can more easily get used to mechanics such as correctly distancing themselves from various attacks and getting used to stamina management in a less stressful/punishing environment since they'll be fine even if they mess up a bit and can do better next time.
To be clear, these are just examples I came up with off the top of my head. They're by no means meant to e perfect answers or anything, but are just the type of things I think of when it comes to stuff that could make the game more accessible to more players with a hypothetical "Easy Mode" without completely compromising the basic gameplay loops or mechanics in any significant way.
Co-op/friendly spirits does none of that, and are thus not really a substitute for a theoretical easy mode. Co-op in particular is a lackluster option, since, unless I'm mistake, there's no local co-op settings, meaning that co-op in no way say helps a parent play alongside their kid to help teach them the ropes unless they like buy two different systems to do so and play in different rooms of the house. On the other hand, an easy mode that does some of the things I would does make it more easier for younger or disabled players to more easily learn the ropes and enjoy the game, while causing absolutely no harm to no someone like you since it would be an easily ignoreable option having zero impact on your playthroughs.
Like, I just don't get it... Take Bayonetta 2 for instance. That has a mode that like just lets people play through the game using just one button. But does the existence of that mode take away from the enjoyment of players going through the game on the highest difficulty and trying to get Pure Platinum scores on every level they possibly can? Not at all! People still have a blast doing that shit, despite the accessibility options the game has for younger/less skill/disabled players, because that stuff literally impacts them in no way, the same way a theoretical Easy Mode in a Souls game would impact those who choose not to use it in no way whatsoever.
OnionPowder
Member
Sorry to be a contrarian, but Rainbow Six Siege has 0 aim assist on consoles.
Would a mode that turns boss battles into something more like Asura's Wrath be a good alternative? It would let people experience the game and what people want from it fully while inferior geeks with superiority and empathy issues can play their mode in their corner too.
Souls could be huge with the mainstream.
Souls could be huge with the mainstream.
DUFFMCWALIN
Member
It absolutely does not gain them any sales. No one is saying remove the typical difficulty, but adding an easier mode. It literally changes nothing for us who like dark souls for what it is.
Kssio_Aug
Member
I've finished Demon's Souls, Bloodborne and Dark Souls 1. I have to say that the reason I don't get Dark Souls 3 is because I don't really want to deal with some frustration I had to deal with all the other games even though I think they were awesome considering the entire package (the gameplay is superb). I'd take an easier mode with open arms nowadays.
I played MK8 in a 4 person group twice this week- the first time, we played Deluxe and did every single grand prix on 200cc, not knowing what smart steering was and towards the end noticing it was on but not knowing it could be turned off. Me and my friend got 1st and 2nd in most of them (I used to play 150cc online a lot a few years ago, but never played the DLC), and my gf and his both battled it out for around 5th or so. We all had a great time.
A few days later I played with my gf, her sister, and her sister's bf, but this time on Wii U 200cc. I was struggling to get 5th and everyone else was hanging out at the bottom. I wanted to keep playing and try to improve but nobody else was really having fun and we switched to 150cc for the rest of the night.
Smart steering made the game playable for them, and now that I've realized I suck without it I can have fun trying to get better at the game while they have a good time playing with it on. Everyone wins. It's pretty simple imo.
A few days later I played with my gf, her sister, and her sister's bf, but this time on Wii U 200cc. I was struggling to get 5th and everyone else was hanging out at the bottom. I wanted to keep playing and try to improve but nobody else was really having fun and we switched to 150cc for the rest of the night.
Smart steering made the game playable for them, and now that I've realized I suck without it I can have fun trying to get better at the game while they have a good time playing with it on. Everyone wins. It's pretty simple imo.
metalslimer
Member
I'll never get anyone who argues against accessibility options in any game.
HerroRygar
Member
100% agreed, preach Jim. I'm happy that more people can have fun with this awesome game.
always crazy bacon
Banned
Liked and subscribed.
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
Auto parry.
Then that's your choice, isn't it? There's literally nothing wrong with adding an easy mode.
Deaf Spacker
Memb
Anything that makes a game more accessible to disabled gamers and/or kids etc is great in my book.
Fahzgoolin
Banned
I guess Jim's videos aren't for me. I can't watch a video of his without some sort of overt distasteful sexual joke or sexual image/gag. I would rather not embarrass myself around others or needlessly raise my wife's eyebrows.
It's too bad, cuz I like what he has to say sometimes even if I don't agree with it.
Anyways, yeah I think the steering feature is awesome. Really great way to get people to enjoy playing it even if they aren't experienced. I don't see how it could win you a race either, unless someone can prove that a skilled player using it could abuse it.
It's too bad, cuz I like what he has to say sometimes even if I don't agree with it.
Anyways, yeah I think the steering feature is awesome. Really great way to get people to enjoy playing it even if they aren't experienced. I don't see how it could win you a race either, unless someone can prove that a skilled player using it could abuse it.
Play the video and open another window. You don't really need the visual aids most of the time.
Fahzgoolin
Banned
heh...true. lol
imagine being the kind of person who cares how other people play their games...
dark souls is imo the best game of all time and i've played thru it countless times. i agree with the argument that it's not as hard as people say etc but that's irrelevant. the fact that there's so much to love about the series outside of the challenge means at least a handful of people would benefit from some kind of easier mode.
i also think a lot of shut in ~gamer~ types underestimate how hard these games are to get into for people who havent been playing games for years. absolute snobbery and its fucking embarrassing tbh
+ mario kart auto steering is good and if disagree then you are a nerd, hate children, ableist and u think that being better than people is more important than their fun.
WoW is a great example of this.
Just ignore the difficulties that don't apply to you, as intended.
LFR is to see/experience the content and nothing more.
Normal is for the more casual players.
Heroic is for your semi-hardcore raid group.
Mythic is for your hardcore raid group.
Now say Dark Souls give you two options;
Simple - Easier mode for experiencing the content
Souls - The Souls experience
A simple fix for Simple mode would be to remove some boss moves from being used and/or adding (yet again taken from WoW) Determination
Your persistence in the face of adversity strengthens your resolve.
Damage dealt increased by 5%.
Healing received increased by 5%.
Health increased by 5%.
Which you can accept, will only trigger after X deaths and may scale even further if you keep dying.
This won't affect anyone or the gameplay design and it's just removing items and stat changing from the normal mode and shouldn't require any massive effort or implementation for the developer as mod tools already can do this with a few clicks.
Silent_Ocarina
Member
When someone argues against having easier options for people, it just sounds like they're saying "you are not as good as I am, therefore you don't get to have the same experience/fun as I do."