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[Vinnk]

Yeah it's frustrating in the beginning.
It was no different for us when we started. Hell i can still remember when i first started playing shooters with the dual analog controller. Really frustrating. Mostly because the controller isn't suited for that at all (hence why it's so slow and why there is aim assist on consoles) but it's also something to get used to. Some people get there faster than others, but we'll get there.
I was glad with the Wii and the PS move controllers. They were much more immersive and user friendly.

Explain to me why you wrote:"Maybe I should have forced her to practice more."
You think i'm some sort of drill sergeant to my kid or something?

Just have patience with her and she'll be fine. Maybe start out with a game that's easier for a 3 or 4 year old.

Can't I just let her enjoy what she wants to play now? Then she can choose if she wants a more difficult mode later?

If she had a deep down gamer drive, like I did when I got my first NES at 7, then yeah maybe she could pick it up super fast. (though I remember specifically renting Konami games so I could cheat code my way through them at that age). Maybe she will be that type of serious gamer in the future. But right now, today, she wants to: "Be the pink girl in the rainbow space one. And daddy is the turtle!".

I don't see how that is hurting anyone.

 

[NeonBlack]

You're making the mistake in assuming that people still wouldn't find it difficult. I play a great deal of games on easier or easiest setting,doesn't mean I'm steamrolling everything. I wouldn't want it to play itself

You're right, I didn't think that the difficulty would still persist for those players. But we are all not on the same skill level so they would still be experiencing the what is on my opinion thecore element of those games.

The game would still have the only truly important parts of a video game: the art and story.

Removing the gameplay with some sort of QTE heavy mode is the superior choice, it makes the game stand out on it's good points, instead of being held back by arcane, discriminating gameplay that has no business being a main selling thing in today's market.

But they barely have story or at least confirmed story. I don't think a QTE fest would be ideal, even the Smart Steering in MK still requires the player to drive.

Players who suck would get the same thing as players who play on normal: the satisfaction of beating an enemy. Just because they did it in fewer tries doesn't mean they won't be able to get that satisfaction.

I'm having a hard time understanding why some people don't want more options for a game to be more accessible. One particular reasoning I really hate is that they would be tempted to lower difficulty to get past a difficult boss. So, just because you have no self-control, you want to take that option away from other people? How selfish is that?

I think the problem is that games like MK didn't have smart steering in them to begin with so it makes people think about when they were a kid and just had to deal with crashing all the time until they learned.

They didn't have the training wheels and don't understand the reason for them to be in play now.

 

[Nightii]

But they barely have story or at least confirmed story. I don't think a QTE fest would be ideal, even the Smart Steering in MK still requires the player to drive.

Well, in that case they could probably afford to focus more resources on that stuff in the future if they didn't had to put so much emphasis on making the game an elitist paradise of execution and gameplay focus. From is actively turning away people with this philosophy, when they could be reaching new, enlightening heights.

I'm sure there would still a bunch of retro inspired hard gamez for peeps with inferiority issues to play with, while the big boys like From make great pieces for the world to appreciate.

 

[Dirtyshubb]

Can't I just let her enjoy what she wants to play now? Then she can choose if she wants a more difficult mode later?

If she had a deep down gamer drive, like I did when I got my first NES at 7, then yeah maybe she could pick it up super fast. (though I remember specifically renting Konami games so I could cheat code my way through them at that age). Maybe she will be that type of serious gamer in the future. But right now, today, she wants to: "Be the pink girl in the rainbow space one. And daddy is the turtle!".

I don't see how that is hurting anyone.

Don't you see, it's about ethics in video game playing ability

Spoiler

lok

Great post though, how anyone could read that and still say it's wrong to give players extra options baffles me.

 

[Doc_Drop]

The game would still have the only truly important parts of a video game: the art and story.

Removing the gameplay with some sort of QTE heavy mode is the superior choice, it makes the game stand out on it's good points, instead of being held back by arcane, discriminating gameplay that has no business being a main selling thing in today's market.

Fuckin hell,the amount of piss amd vinegar in this post is hilarious

 

[Spukc]

This video is also for the souls series <3

 

[NeonBlack]

Well, in that case they could probably afford to focus more resources on that stuff in the future if they didn't had to put so much emphasis on making the game an elitist paradise of execution and gameplay focus. From is actively turning away people with this philosophy, when they could be reaching new, enlightening heights.

I'm sure there would still a bunch of retro inspired hard gamez for peeps with inferiority issues to play with, while the big boys like From make great pieces for the world to appreciate.

These games gained popularity because of the focus on gameplay. Throwing that out the window for QTEs (if I remember correctly is one of the most hated gaming schemes besides from God of War and platinum games) would be taking away the fan base.

An easy mode with less aggressive enemy behavior and combo strings keeps what exposed this game there without completely changing the game as you're suggesting.

 

[Assanova]

I'm not understanding the logic behind telling me that I wouldn't have fun with the Souls game if I am not dying over and over and over again. I like the world and I like the gameplay. Is that not enough of a reason? What does the difficulty have to do with my personal enjoyment of the game?

It's no different than when someone picks up a GTA game and plays it the way that they find enjoyable, whether it is blowing crap up, harassing NPCs, or simply driving around listening to music. Is it not fun because the player isn't playing it the "right way" by plowing through the story and missing the out on the cinematics that GTA is known for?

 

[Doc_Drop]

Are people taking that post seriously?!

 

[Dirtyshubb]

I'm not understanding the logic behind telling me that I wouldn't have fun with the Souls game if I am not dying over and over and over again. I like the world and I like the gameplay. Is that not enough of a reason? What does the difficulty have to do with my personal enjoyment of the game?

It's no different than when someone picks up a GTA game and plays it the way that they find enjoyable, whether it is blowing crap up, harassing NPCs, or simply driving around listening to music. Is it not fun because the player isn't playing it the "right way" by plowing through the story and missing the out on the cinematics that GTA is known for?

Nope, apparently the only good thing about souls is the difficulty. And that's from the people who apparently love the series, so us people saying there is more to the game just don't get it.

 

[big_erk]

You sound ridiculous.

The games aren't as hard as people make them out to be, but that doesn't really matter since you've already decided what to think of the game despite being totally clueless about it. Good job.

The Souls games are hard but fair. Never have I cried out after dying in a Souls game "Man!, That was fucking bullshit!!!!!!!!" like I have in other game series. Usually I just think to myself "Damn, that wasn't a good idea."

 

[JetBlackPanda]

smart steering has allowed me to share MK8 with my 5 year old daughter and she can stay competitive. with me and she loves it. why would anyone be against an extra feature you can turn off?

 

[metareferential]

smart steering has allowed me to share MK8 with my 5 year old daughter and she can stay competitive. with me and she loves it. why would anyone be against an extra feature you can turn off?

Because people are dumb. Especially so on the internet.

Thank god for Lui..., ehm Jim. Or Luijim?

 

[Always-honest]

Can't I just let her enjoy what she wants to play now? Then she can choose if she wants a more difficult mode later?

If she had a deep down gamer drive, like I did when I got my first NES at 7, then yeah maybe she could pick it up super fast. (though I remember specifically renting Konami games so I could cheat code my way through them at that age). Maybe she will be that type of serious gamer in the future. But right now, today, she wants to: "Be the pink girl in the rainbow space one. And daddy is the turtle!".

I don't see how that is hurting anyone.

It's not hurting anyone. If you have fun with your daughter it's great.
I think you can have just as much fun without this feature though. Just more frustrating for a short while.

But don't let me stop you from having fun man. It's the most important thing in the world. Have fun with your kids. Don't let anyone's opinion ever take that away from you.

I can remember my kid thinking he controlled the autofeature in NSMB-WiiU when in super guide. But it was less fun when he found out, haha.

I'm not in the "games should be difficult" camp. But they are designed to be played in a certain way and some games are really easy to learn. MarioKart is one of those games in my opinion. Yes she'll bump into a wall the first 50 times.
Or help her hold the controller. That's fun too.
I agree that for a 4 year old the satisfaction of the game is not in winning or even being good at it. Hell, in most cases the bumping into things is even fun enough.

I do think the smart-steering feature is GREAT for disabled kids / people though. Or maybe a grandma, father,, uncle, etc who never plays games.


Mind you, i was very much on the "why not if it's optional" side for a while. But i switched sides.

 

[Vinnk]

I think the problem is that games like MK didn't have smart steering in them to begin with so it makes people think about when they were a kid and just had to deal with crashing all the time until they learned.

Or got frustrated and stopped playing. Like my younger sister did. She always found the games too hard. So she stopped playing them. She never got better because she got frustrated and quit. And now as an adult she is still not interested in trying again as all she remembers is not having fun.

They didn't have the training wheels and don't understand the reason for them to be in play now.

Just because something didn't exist in the past doesn't mean it isn't a good idea. That's progress.



Let me make an analogy. It's not a perfect one but bear with me.

When I'm not posting on NeoGaf I'm a teacher. And I work with kids of all different ability levels. Some kids pick things up super quick and some need more help. The end goal is always to get better to keep improving but if something is so frustrating as to cause a student to loose all motivation it makes it extra hard, if not impossible, for them to advance.

A lot of older teachers I work with are reluctant to change their teaching styles. There is the thought that "I didn't need those thing to learn while I was growing up. And I came out fine." But that's the thing. That learning style worked for them and it worked so well that this person wanted to become a teacher. The people who failed at school because it was too hard don't often go on to become teachers.

We as gamers are the ones who pressed on despite (or because of) the challenge. We enjoyed it. It made us who we are. But how many more potential gamers were left behind along the way? How many people didn't continue because it was frustrating and no longer enjoyable?

Yikes. Don't know if that analogy worked. Let me try again.

As a kid I liked the X-men animated series. I was not a comic book fan. Didn't own any. But I wanted more of the story and characters and knew they were in comic books. So I begged my mom to take me to a comic book shop to get some comics. She finally took me. I asked the staff where I could find the X-men comics, I didn't know anything about the different series or timelines or what have you. Just wanted some comics with the characters I liked. The staff were not helpful and they talked down to me. Made me feel that since I only knew the x-men from the TV that I wasn't a true fan. They didn't recommend me a good starter comic, or something that would help guide me into the Marvel Universe. Just basically made fun of my ignorance. So I just never got into comics. To this day they seem overcomplicated and have barriers against casual reading. I didn't make the effort to learn more about them because I was so turned off by the experience.

I feel that video games are also creating a barrier that's keeping out potential future gamers.

 

[Foxy the Fox]

It's good that it's enabled by default. The type of person playing Mario Kart that doesn't want it will know how to disable it. The type of person who needs it wouldn't even know to look for the feature in the first place.

My not-so-gamer friends that play Mario Kart decently(we all have friends who are not gamers and know how to play Mario Kart) didn't know how to disable it until I told them how to do so.

That shit should be disable by default or just ask once when booting the game for the first time if I want it enabled by default.

Is annoying to always have it enabled when playing with friends and telling them to disable it every single time.

 

[Mr. Nice_Guy]

I didn't know about this feature until this video and I'm more excited to play now than ever. My mom and girlfriend both like playing it on the WiiU, and while my gf has gotten better, (didn't game at all before dating me), the joints in my mom's hands start to hurt after too long, and she has trouble with some turns. The auto accelerate and steer assist is going to make the game so much more playable to her, and I'm really looking forward to that.

 

[Nightii]

I feel that video games are also creating a barrier that's keeping out potential future gamers.

Very well said, they were good analogies.

A lot of potential gamers are indeed lost due to games till catering to big babies, they should be shunned and casted aside, tbh.

Imagine all your family and friends being able to appreciate and enjoy this hobby without difficulty or arcane gameplay styles getting in the way, hopefuly we will get there soon.

 

[jennetics]

Let me make an analogy. It's not a perfect one but bear with me.

Yikes. Don't know if that analogy worked. Let me try again.

I liked your analogies, makes me think about my nephew and how I'll get him into gaming (which, depending on his mom, who knows if that'll ever happen lol). Gotta bring more gamers into the world, even if it means making it "easier" for them. Otherwise, we'll just end up with a generation of candy-crushing gamers!! I can't be held accountable for that type of gamer! The thought of people solely playing touch games on their phones makes me crazyyy lol

Seriously though, can't wait to play MK8D with my video game-illiterate family one day

 

[Always-honest]

I feel that video games are also creating a barrier that's keeping out potential future gamers.

True. And i think it's great that the Wii made a serious attempt to break down that wall.
I'm just not sure this feature is that great for that purpose. They'll learn nothing from it. But maybe it will make them enthusiastic and encourage them to learn the real controls some other time. I'm doubtful about that.

 

[Vinnk]

It's not hurting anyone. If you have fun with your daughter it's great.
I think you can have just as much fun without this feature though. Just more frustrating for a short while.

But don't let me stop you from having fun man. It's the most important thing in the world. Have fun with your kids. Don't let anyone's opinion ever take that away from you.

I can remember my kid thinking he controlled the autofeature in NSMB-WiiU when in super guide. But it was less fun when he found out, haha.

I'm not in the "games should be difficult" camp. But they are designed to be played in a certain way and some games are really easy to learn. MarioKart is one of those games in my opinion. Yes she'll bump into a wall the first 50 times.
Or help her hold the controller. That's fun too.
I agree that for a 4 year old the satisfaction of the game is not in winning or even being good at it. Hell, in most cases the bumping into things is even fun enough.

I do think the smart-steering feature is GREAT for disabled kids / people though.

Yeah, I think we can come to an understanding there. I would also not want to tell you that your kids need to have these features turned on to have a good time. If they love gaming enough to push through the initial hard part and come out stronger for it, that's great. That's how it was for me too.

I think that's where options are such a good thing. I love that Mario Kart has this option. This week playing with my kids, and them being able to enjoy it despite their skill level, has been one of the best weeks in my gaming life.

Yet if Nintendo had put drive assist in the game with no option to turn it off, or had taken some of the more challenging modes out of the game in order to accommodate the easy stuff, I wold be up in arms.

Playing with the kids is great but after they are in bed I want something to challenge my 30+ years as a gamer.

It's all about options. And they have to add things without taking other things away. That's the big one.

 

[Emu-Fred]

Can't wait for the next Dark Souls game featuring Mario Kart with Smart Steering.

 

[Always-honest]

Yeah, I think we can come to an understanding there. I would also not want to tell you that your kids need to have these features turned on to have a good time. If they love gaming enough to push through the initial hard part and come out stronger for it, that's great. That's how it was for me too.

I think that's where options are such a good thing. I love that Mario Kart has this option. This week playing with my kids, and them being able to enjoy it despite their skill level, has been one of the best weeks in my gaming life.

Yet if Nintendo had put drive assist in the game with no option to turn it off, or had taken some of the more challenging modes out of the game in order to accommodate the easy stuff, I wold be up in arms.

Playing with the kids is great but after they are in bed I want something to challenge my 30+ years as a gamer.

It's all about options. And they have to add things without taking other things away. That's the big one.

Yeah, options are good, in general. And this is a good option, for some. And when people see their kids (or parents, grandparents, etc) having fun then it seems to be worth it. I guess i'm just a tiny bit old fashioned when it comes to certain things. Not games and options but the principle that it's more rewarding to learn something and master it. I think i would try and find other ways to make it more easy or accessible than to implement some sort of automode. And keep the controls as they are.

Anyway, sorry if i seemed harsh or anything like that. I'm all for family fun and accessibility.
It's just that i think a bit different about this mode. But of course i see little harm in it.

 

[Vinnk]

I'm just not sure this feature is that great for that purpose. They'll learn nothing from it. But maybe it will make them enthusiastic and encourage them to learn the real controls some other time. I'm doubtful about that.

Well it's only an anecdote. But my older daughter is 7. And when we would play Mario 3D World she would always take the golden tanooki invincibility thing (the game was still hard enough for her due to bottomless pits which it doesn't protect against) and in fact she would ask me to die in the game to make them come out faster. And we played that way for a long time. But after a while, as she got older, and more used to the controls, she stopped using it. At least on the earlier worlds. And my guess is she will eventually stop all together. So, it's only one data point, and my girl might be an outlier but in this case she could learn the real way of playing.

And it guess it's not quite the same, but do you remember the Game Genie cheat device? My best friend had one for his NES and we loved that thing when he first got it. We'd play all the games with invincibility or all the weapons, etc. But over time that got kinda boring and we stopped using it. By now we had better learned about the games and could potentially clear them without it.

But yeah, I guess we will have to wait a few years to see if the drive assist on Mario Kart will be something that kids part with.

 

[SomewhatGroovy]

Was going to post this exact same thing.

It doesn't even matter if you do or not. The idea to give the player options is a great direction more developers need to consider for the right game.

Man, I have no idea what the fuck has been going through Jim's head the past few months but I went from rabbid fan to wtf is wrong with this dude in blink of an eye.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

Remember when Forza introduced the rewind feature and they were praised for it? Accessibility isn't always a bad thing people.

 

[Vinnk]

Yeah, options are good, in general. And this is a good option, for some. And when people see their kids (or parents, grandparents, etc) having fun then it seems to be worth it. I guess i'm just a tiny bit old fashioned when it comes to certain things. Not games and options but the principle that it's more rewarding to learn something and master it. I think i would try and find other ways to make it more easy or accessible than to implement some sort of automode. And keep the controls as they are.

Anyway, sorry if i seemed harsh or anything like that. I'm all for family fun and accessibility.
It's just that i think a bit different about this mode. But of course i see little harm in it.

Hey not at all man. I've enjoyed this conversation. In fact I agree with a lot of what you are saying. Challenge can definitely be it's own reward. And becoming truly great at a game is sublime.

To tell the truth I would love to revisit this topic 5 years from now. Will my daughters still be playing games? Will they still be using drive assist like devices? I also have a one year old boy too small to play games right now. Will he decide to skip the assist features all-together because he wants to show off to his sisters? Or use it to stay competitive? I really don't know for sure. But it will be interesting to find out.

 

[Siege.exe]

It doesn't even matter if you do or not. The idea to give the player options is a great direction more developers need to consider for the right game.

Man, I have no idea what the fuck has been going through Jim's head the past few months but I went from rabbid fan to wtf is wrong with this dude in blink of an eye.

Umm, why would this particular video bother you? He's 100% behind smart steering

 

[Always-honest]

Well it's only an anecdote. But my older daughter is 7. And when we would play Mario 3D World she would always take the golden tanooki invincibility thing (the game was still hard enough for her due to bottomless pits which it doesn't protect against) and in fact she would ask me to die in the game to make them come out faster. And we played that way for a long time. But after a while, as she got older, and more used to the controls, she stopped using it. At least on the earlier worlds. And my guess is she will eventually stop all together. So, it's only one data point, and my girl might be an outlier but in this case she could learn the real way of playing.

And it guess it's not quite the same, but do you remember the Game Genie cheat device? My best friend had one for his NES and we loved that thing when he first got it. We'd play all the games with invincibility or all the weapons, etc. But over time that got kinda boring and we stopped using it. By now we had better learned about the games and could potentially clear them without it.

But yeah, I guess we will have to wait a few years to see if the drive assist on Mario Kart will be something that kids part with.

Sure, i remember that thing. You f*cking cheater!

Spoiler

i actually never used it, . But mostly because i didn't know how to get one, haha

And a lot of kids will part with the drive assist within the first year i think. They'll keep gaming, don't worry. Most of their friends will be gaming too.

It doesn't even matter if you do or not. The idea to give the player options is a great direction more developers need to consider for the right game.

Man, I have no idea what the fuck has been going through Jim's head the past few months but I went from rabbid fan to wtf is wrong with this dude in blink of an eye.

Jim is all for it.

Hey not at all man. I've enjoyed this conversation. In fact I agree with a lot of what you are saying. Challenge can definitely be it's own reward. And becoming truly great at a game is sublime.

To tell the truth I would love to revisit this topic 5 years from now. Will my daughters still be playing games? Will they still be using drive assist like devices? I also have a one year old boy too small to play games right now. Will he decide to skip the assist features all-together because he wants to show off to his sisters? Or use it to stay competitive? I really don't know for sure. But it will be interesting to find out.

Ah great. Me too.
Yeah your daughters will be playing games. Like i said. Their friends (or some of them at the very least) will be playing games too. Maybe not the games we play though.
My son is 9 now and while he likes PS4 and Nintendo games, he mostly plays Roblox and games i never even heard of.

 

[Nanashrew]

Any option that makes a game more accessible for someone who would otherwise be unable to enjoy it can only be spun one way surely? It reminds me of the lengths Naughty Dog went to to make (I think) Uncharted 4 playable by those with disabilities.

That's why I reserve the right to say that Arkane were *lazy* not to include such basics as PS4 Pro enhancements in Prey's development.

Edit - yeah UC4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ls_CD4mB42s

These kinds of accessibility features made in UC4 are what i'd like to see in more games. There are well thought out features there to build upon for plenty of genres.

And I agree with you. We shouldn't be caught up on one single feature like an easy mode for a game like Dark Souls, there are plenty of ways to handle it like the UC4 video shows.

 

[EatinOlives]

People pretending that Dark Souls already doesn't have accessibility features, makes me chuckle.

Each Souls game already has items and mechanics (health regeneration rings, pyromancy, magic, certain equipment like the drake sword, etc.) aimed specifically at new people, and most importantly the inclusion of co-op trivializes many, many aspects of the game including bosses if you play with someone who knows what they're doing. This kind of feature automate the games even more than Smart Steering in Mario Kart; add enough co-op players and you can beat bosses without even doing anything yourself! I admit I rely on this crutch at least once per Souls game when I've simply run out of patience and want to just move on to the next area.

 

[Brashnir]

I think it's fine that a game like Mario Kart added these options. Given that it is a game targeted mostly toward families and a broad audience, it makes sense.

However, while it's true that adding difficulty modes and assist features can help a game to appeal to a wider audience, I don't necessarily think that doing so makes the game better.

I don't think adding a hardcore, gun-toting mode to Gone Home for Hardcore Gamers(tm) would have made Gone Home a better game, and likewise I don't think adding an easy mode to DOTA 2 would make it a better game. Sure, such decisions might help both appeal to a wider audience, but it wouldn't make either better.

At some point in development, a team has to make a decision on their target audience, and things like budget, genre, art style and difficulty level should all reflect this decision.

I'm too weaksauce to want to play kaizo platformers, but that doesn't mean that I think they need to be made easier to satisfy me. I think it's rad that they exist and I enjoy watching them played on streams and youtube. These games, generally speaking, have wisely chosen to generally be zero-to-very-low budget affairs since their audience is very limited, but the gaming world is better for their existence.

If I want to "experience" them, I can load them up and play them myself. I'm probably not going to beat most of them, and that's OK. It's possible to enjoy a game without being able to finish it. Maybe this comes from the fact that I'm old I got into gaming when games in general were almost all too fucking hard for normal people to finish, but I don't hinge my enjoyment of a game on my ability to finish it. I never beat a ton of the games I played, and enjoyed, as a kid.

And just as the gaming world is better for having stupidly difficult games, it's also better off for having easy games like Kirby's Epic Yarn, a game that personally bored me to death with how easy it was, but it didn't need, and don't expect, a hard mode just for my benefit.

tl;dr - developers should make the games they want to make for the audience they're trying to hit, whether the game ends up easy, hard, or with variable difficulty levels.

 

[Nanashrew]

People pretending that Dark Souls already doesn't have accessibility features, makes me chuckle.

Each Souls game already has items and mechanics (health regeneration rings, pyromancy, magic, certain equipment like the drake sword, etc.) aimed specifically at new people, and most importantly the inclusion of co-op trivializes many, many aspects of the game including bosses if you play with someone who knows what they're doing. This kind of feature automate the games even more than Smart Steering in Mario Kart; add enough co-op players and you can beat bosses without even doing anything yourself! I admit I rely on this crutch at least once per Souls game when I've simply run out of patience and want to just move on to the next area.

Well with that UC4 video, the guy says there were problems in previous Uncharted games where he had to mash buttons to get through some doors. It required an able bodied person to do that for them to get past that point. It made him feel stuck, frustrated, and brought him back into reality when games are an escape to be someone else.

The UC4 video posted shows how much they went through to reduce the amount of buttons and right stick usage as possible with auto-lock-on, advanced auto camera and so on.

You're just listing items for new players to use, or co-op and never contribute and have abled people do it all for you when that's not what is wanted.

 

[Huge Succeeded]

The game would still have the only truly important parts of a video game: the art and story.

Removing the gameplay with some sort of QTE heavy mode is the superior choice, it makes the game stand out on it's good points, instead of being held back by arcane, discriminating gameplay that has no business being a main selling thing in today's market.

I know you're just taking a piss, but that wouldn't even be a bad option for a game that does excel on its other merits as well.

You can't posit that sarcastically like it'd be a hard sell in a real world where streaming and Let's Plays are popular.

 

[OricWindstar]

I think it's fine that a game like Mario Kart added these options. Given that it is a game targeted mostly toward families and a broad audience, it makes sense.

However, while it's true that adding difficulty modes and assist features can help a game to appeal to a wider audience, I don't necessarily think that doing so makes the game better.

I don't think adding a hardcore, gun-toting mode to Gone Home for Hardcore Gamers(tm) would have made Gone Home a better game, and likewise I don't think adding an easy mode to DOTA 2 would make it a better game. Sure, such decisions might help both appeal to a wider audience, but it wouldn't make either better.

At some point in development, a team has to make a decision on their target audience, and things like budget, genre, art style and difficulty level should all reflect this decision.

I'm too weaksauce to want to play kaizo platformers, but that doesn't mean that I think they need to be made easier to satisfy me. I think it's rad that they exist and I enjoy watching them played on streams and youtube. These games, generally speaking, have wisely chosen to generally be zero-to-very-low budget affairs since their audience is very limited, but the gaming world is better for their existence.

If I want to "experience" them, I can load them up and play them myself. I'm probably not going to beat most of them, and that's OK. It's possible to enjoy a game without being able to finish it. Maybe this comes from the fact that I'm old I got into gaming when games in general were almost all too fucking hard for normal people to finish, but I don't hinge my enjoyment of a game on my ability to finish it. I never beat a ton of the games I played, and enjoyed, as a kid.

And just as the gaming world is better for having stupidly difficult games, it's also better off for having easy games like Kirby's Epic Yarn, a game that personally bored me to death with how easy it was, but it didn't need, and don't expect, a hard mode just for my benefit.

tl;dr - developers should make the games they want to make for the audience they're trying to hit, whether the game ends up easy, hard, or with variable difficulty levels.

I don't think this is disagreeing with sentiment. He even says he doesn't think Dark Souls needs an easy mode. It just wouldn't be worse for having one,

This is more complaining about people who get upset when these features are added rather than developers not including them.

 

[Brashnir]

I don't think this is disagreeing with sentiment. He even says he doesn't think Dark Souls needs an easy mode. It just wouldn't be worse for having one,

This is more complaining about people who get upset when these features are added rather than developers not including them.

My post was not necessarily meant in opposition to the video, but rather the position of many in this and other similar threads that insist that more options is always a universal good.

I have no disagreement with the idea that most of the people screeching about this are being ridiculous.

 

[OricWindstar]

My post was not necessarily meant in opposition to the video, but rather the position of many in this and other similar threads that insist that more options is always a universal good.

I have no disagreement with the idea that most of the people screeching about this are being ridiculous.

Oh yeah, totally agree. A lot of complaints on this forum rarely take actual development time into account.

 

[Kart94]

Not really interested in the whole thing, but it is good people can play the game...more people playing Mario Kart isn't bad.

Anyway lol at thoses Dark Souls should have easy mode. Sorry the game isn't for you. some games shouldn't be altered to be easy since the point of Bloodborne and Dark Souls is to be a challenge. remove the challenge is like removing blood and gore from MK. you are just throwing away the appeal for an audience that couldn't care less. GIT GOOD

 

[Nightii]

I know you're just taking a piss, but that wouldn't even be a bad option for a game that does excel on its other merits as well.

You can't posit that sarcastically like it'd be a hard sell in a real world where streaming and Let's Plays are popular.

I was being serious, though.

I know it would be a great sell, which is why there are games that take this aproach and forgo uninclusive gameplay already, it is a surefire way to make games better. Unless the game itself getting the feature has subpar story and artstyle and relied on it's gameplay, then it would just be revealed to be a worthless game.

 

[Empyrean Heaven]

So....
seriously, what's up with the "skeleton warriors" bit that seems to be in most of Jim's videos? Is this a joke I don't get or is it just something random being thrown in for randomness' sake?

I think it's just when he experiences extreme rage, it randomly cuts to that. At least I think that's the joke.

I think it's also his way to try and create "monetization deadlock", so that when Nintendo inevitably tries to monetize the video for use of footage of their games, they'll find CBS waiting to challenge them. Of course he usually uses a butt-ton of other games too to create said deadlock (see last week when he threw in footage of the CoD WWII trailer)

He usually concludes Nintendo based videos with Erasure's "Chains of Love" for further deadlock, but he didn't here either. Maybe since it's a video actually being positive towards Nintendo, he's letting them have this one?

 

[EatinOlives]

Well with that UC4 video, the guy says there were problems in previous Uncharted games where he had to mash buttons to get through some doors. It required an able bodied person to do that for them to get past that point. It made him feel stuck, frustrated, and brought him back into reality when games are an escape to be someone else.

The UC4 video posted shows how much they went through to reduce the amount of buttons and right stick usage as possible with auto-lock-on, advanced auto camera and so on.

You're just listing items for new players to use, or co-op and never contribute and have abled people do it all for you when that's not what is wanted.

What accessibility options are needed? The Souls games don't require fast button mashing or highly precise aim on a dime.

And you're conflating easy modes with accessibility options.

 

[Htown]

Pampering people or treating them like idiots will get them nowhere.

. . .

It's a fucking go-kart video game.

 

[thetrin]

I really think it's great to have in the game, but I really wish it was off by default (or give the option to turn on/off the very first time you turn on the game).

 

[Nanashrew]

What accessibility options are needed? The Souls games don't require fast button mashing or highly precise aim on a dime.

And you're conflating easy modes with accessibility options.

I was mainly responding to this where you said said:

People pretending that Dark Souls already doesn't have accessibility features, makes me chuckle.

So of course I'm going to get the wrong idea because features and options can be quite interchangeable. Even I've kinda done it.

And then you talked about strategies to trivialize the game to help make the game easier to get into for players:

Each Souls game already has items and mechanics (health regeneration rings, pyromancy, magic, certain equipment like the drake sword, etc.) aimed specifically at new people, and most importantly the inclusion of co-op trivializes many, many aspects of the game including bosses if you play with someone who knows what they're doing.

But then you went on to this comparing Mario Kart's Smart Steering, which is an accessibility feature that can be used by young kids and the disabled:

This kind of feature automate the games even more than Smart Steering in Mario Kart; add enough co-op players and you can beat bosses without even doing anything yourself! I admit I rely on this crutch at least once per Souls game when I've simply run out of patience and want to just move on to the next area.

You devised a strategy for people to use to trivialize the game to a point others could even do the work for you. That's also really not what Smart Steering is about. Smart Steering allows the person to play the game, period. And not have to have other people help them or do things for them.

I've barely really talked much at all about an easy mode in this thread, in fact I've wanted people to think outside the box and other ways that accessibility features can be done. Because there are plenty of ways to handle it. Yes, easy mode can be one way, but focusing on one singular way isn't the best. UC4's accessibility features I saw in that video are really awesome and they can be built upon, refined, and even used in other genres for example. Button mapping can be huge as well and PlatinumGames has been really good about that, as well as other features for the disabled.

And you're right about the lack of precision aim required, and the button mashing. I don't know too much about Dark Souls and largely been reading the posts on them. I suppose less requirement of the player to handle the camera. One person earlier in the thread came up with the idea of a button prompt that appears that could teach the player how and when to dodge and reinforce that reaction and learn. Not an automatic thing like a QTE mind you, just a simple button prompt reminding you you can perform this action. I'm sure there can be other useful methods though but it's a good start.

Since Dark Souls is more slower paced than Uncharted, it likely wouldn't take large amount of accessibility options. Just choice ones that work comfortably with the game. Just something so that the person can play on their own and even contribute to their team when they want to play co-op.

 

[Staccat0]

I don't always agree with Jim but he's an interesting dude. God I wish he'd drop the goofy aesthetic and kid jokes though.