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[Dirtyshubb]

I guess Jim's videos aren't for me. I can't watch a video of his without some sort of overt distasteful sexual joke or sexual image/gag. I would rather not embarrass myself around others or needlessly raise my wife's eyebrows.

Really?

Lol no offence but it sounds like your a couple of prudes, my wife always watches Jimquisition episodes each week and has never thought of it as distasteful.

Spoiler

Done get me wrong not everyone has to like a thing, just that i find it funny to think some people find it distasteful

As for the topic i am all for easy modes etc. for games. As long as it doesnt change anything for the harder difficulty levels then there is 0 problem with having more options. Any argument otherwise is just selfish and entitled.

 

[Solobbos]

Are you guys serious about shitting on Dark Souls easy mode? I have many lapsed gamer fans that don't have hours to spare to train one boss on Soulsborne. If they could have infinite health or slower boss movement or stronger attacks, they could enjoy some of the best experiences this medium has to offer. Saying it should not be done and to git gud is just plain wrong.

 

[Gravy Boat]

Bizarre attitude.

If an easy mode meant I could actually play through Bloodborne whilst balancing life and a job (not all of us are masochists who want to "git gud") - then what harm would it be to you?

The reality is the lack of difficulty scaling loses Souls game sales.

I played through Bloodborne while balancing a job and supporting my partner and our new born child. Don't act like you need to be a no-lifer to finish a game like Bloodborne. It was also my first full Souls game so it's not like I'm even a veteran.

 

[Phoenix RISING]

When someone argues against having easier options for people, it just sounds like they're saying "you are not as good as I am, therefore you don't get to have the same experience/fun as I do."

This is correct. "I thumb my nose at thee."

How else can you determine that you're better?

 

[MattKeil]

Are you guys serious about shitting on Dark Souls easy mode? I have many lapsed gamer fans that don't have hours to spare to train one boss on Soulsborne. If they could have infinite health or slower boss movement or stronger attacks, they could enjoy some of the best experiences this medium has to offer. Saying it should not be done and to git gud is just plain wrong.

Just the usual gamer elitism rearing its head in one of the few places it still can. I can say definitively that I know half a dozen people who would buy Souls games if they had an easier setting, or at least a pause option for offline play. They're just leaving money on the table if future Souls games (or whatever replaces them in From's future work) don't start including the people who have bounced off the games or not tried them due to their reputations. It's a shame, too, because several of the people in question would love the lore and the designs in the games. They just don't have the time or patience to spend a hundred hours to git gud.

 

[Gravy Boat]

When someone argues against having easier options for people, it just sounds like they're saying "you are not as good as I am, therefore you don't get to have the same experience/fun as I do."

Maybe in some cases but it's not the case for the Souls series. I've only finished Bloodborne and got to the 5th or 6th boss in Demon Souls, but even I know that the Souls games just would not but fun on an easy difficulty. People will argue that they'll be fun for someone but I'd argue that they just wouldn't. The entire appeal of the series is that they're challenging and rely on you developing your skills as a player to progress. Without that they just become poor 3rd person hack and slashers.

They're also not that difficult, the difficulty is greatly exaggerated. They're harder than most AAA games but they're far from impossible. Really the only people I see talking about how absurdly difficult they are, are people who haven't actually played them. They require patience as you will die alot at the start, but you're supposed to. There are also several ways within the game to make it easier, without the need for an explicit difficulty toggle. I managed to complete Bloodborne while working full time and raising a newborn child. It took me maybe 2 months, so it was slow progress, but I did it and I enjoyed the hell out of it. One of my top games of the generation so far without a doubt.

 

[Dirtyshubb]

Maybe in some cases but it's not the case for the Souls series. I've only finished Bloodborne and got to the 5th or 6th boss in Demon Souls, but even I know that the Souls games just would not but fun on an easy difficulty. People will argue that they'll be fun for someone but I'd argue that they just wouldn't. The entire appeal of the series is that they're challenging and rely on you developing your skills as a player to progress. Without that they just become poor 3rd person hack and slashers.

They're also not that difficult, the difficulty is greatly exaggerated. They're harder than most AAA games but they're far from impossible. Really the only people I see talking about how absurdly difficult they are, are people who haven't actually played them. They require patience as you will die alot at the start, but you're supposed to. There are also several ways within the game to make it easier, without the need for an explicit difficulty toggle. I managed to complete Bloodborne while working full time and raising a newborn child. It took me maybe 2 months, so it was slow progress, but I did it and I enjoyed the hell out of it. One of my top games of the generation so far without a doubt.

So it seems your argument is basically:

1) a souls game on easy wouldn't be fun for YOU.
2) the games aren't hard for YOU

So basically you don't have an argument, just a personal opinion that you expect everyone else to agree with.

If the next souls game came out with an easy mode that didn't affect the games mechanics or harder difficulties and a less hardcore player used easy mode and enjoyed it you could definitively say they are wrong or not actually having fun? Who's to say what's fun for other people, certainly not you.

Your also saying that the games aren't hard, regardless of the amount of people who also come out to say they find the souls games hard?

Some people really need to learn the damn difference between an optional option that affects no one but the people who would benefit from it and their own selfish, illogical opinions that they would want everyone to live by because it is clear many people aren't able to

Spoiler

or they are just selfish pricks

 

[Doc_Drop]

Good video, got to commend Nintendo on the addition of the mode for accessibility.

 

[Gravy Boat]

So it seems your argument is basically:

1) a souls game on easy wouldn't be fun for YOU.
2) the games aren't hard for YOU

So basically you don't have an argument, just a personal opinion that you expect everyone else to agree with.

If the next souls game came out with an easy mode that didn't affect the games mechanics or harder difficulties and a less hardcore player used easy mode and enjoyed it you could definitively say they are wrong or not actually having fun? Who's to say what's fun for other people, certainly not you.

Your also saying that the games aren't hard, regardless of the amount of people who also come out to say they find the souls games hard?

Some people really need to learn the damn difference between an optional option that affects no one but the people who would benefit from it and their own selfish, illogical opinions that they would want everyone to live by because it is clear many people aren't able to

Spoiler

or they are just selfish pricks

I didn't say they aren't hard, I said the difficulty is exaggerated which it is. I also stand by the point that an easy mode would not be fun for anyone, as once you strip away the challenge, all you're left with is a collection of mechanics that are found implemented better in other games. Specifically with the souls games, the difficulty is the core mechanic. Removing that would change the game entirely. People asking for an easy mode are basically asking for a different game entirely, which is fine if that's what they want, as long as they understand that they wouldn't be playing a 'Souls' game at that point. So by asking for an easy mode so they can get in on the experience, they'd still be missing out on the experience.

I think you need to calm down with your anger and the 'selfish prick' remarks. Nothing about my post was selfish.

 

[Dr Funfrock]

It's a weirdly well thought-out and considerate move by Nintendo while also bringing them extra enjoyment (and money) from people normally wouldn't be able to either play the game or keep up, so I hope they continue doing this in other titles.

 

[Doc_Drop]

For me it's not necessarily the actual moment to moment difficulty re Souls that's the toughest aspect, it's always been the punishment for failure that I find too much for me to continue playing.

Regardless of whether that's the point, intent, or whether it'll make me a better person (lol). It's a barrier for me wanting to play and a reason why I'll not be playing any more souls.

Summoning is not a great alternative due to my desire to want to play the game alone.

Playing a particular 'easy' build is not a great alternative, cus I want to build a character I would like to play as.

But they're great games, not for me it seems, fine. They sell well regardless so it obviously works

 

[Dirtyshubb]

I didn't say they aren't hard, I said the difficulty is exaggerated which it is. I also stand by the point that an easy mode would not be fun for anyone, as once you strip away the challenge, all you're left with is a collection of mechanics that are found implemented better in other games.

I think you need to calm down with your anger and the 'selfish prick' remarks. Nothing about my post was selfish.

But the whole point of this argument is that there is a need for easier difficulty modes for more casual players, not that the games are hard rather than really hard.

Again, who are you to say that a souls game wouldn’t be fun for other people on an easier difficulty mode? Are you saying that the only reason people like the souls games is because they are hard rather than the core gameplay being fun? Yes each aspect could be compared to other games but the souls games are made up of more than just the difficulty. Maybe someone loves the combat options/style or the aesthetic or the way the story is told etc. Just because you think the game would be worthless without being reallyhard doesn’t mean that’s the case.

And once again, all of this is moot because implementing these changes would affect no one but the people who benefit. It wouldn’t be something that would take a lot of resources to implement and would only help increase sales

Spoiler

unless souls fanboys throw a fit and decide not to buy the game because of the inclusion of something they wont need or experience

My prick comment wasn’t exactly aimed at you so I apologise if it seemed that way but I stick by the sentiment as I have seen plenty of OPINIONS from people who are either unaware that their opinion makes 0 sense and negatively affects others or they are just arseholes who would begrudge someone else getting something that they don’t want.

 

[Petrae]

Kids as well as adults can learn real fast. No need to pamper them with this nonsense.

Same answer for the tourist mode thread. No!

Just learn how to do it right.

The video game fan's version of "bootstraps". Good show.

Just the usual gamer elitism rearing its head in one of the few places it still can. I can say definitively that I know half a dozen people who would buy Souls games if they had an easier setting, or at least a pause option for offline play. They're just leaving money on the table if future Souls games (or whatever replaces them in From's future work) don't start including the people who have bounced off the games or not tried them due to their reputations. It's a shame, too, because several of the people in question would love the lore and the designs in the games. They just don't have the time or patience to spend a hundred hours to git gud.

Add me to that list. I've walked past Soulsbourne games a ton in video game stores and would love to buy them-- but knowing that they're too hard for my skill level and are more likely to piss me off than be in any enjoyable always gets me to leave them on the shelf. Ninja Gaiden Xbox was the lesson in NOPE that I learned with too-difficult games. Not worth throwing money away on a game that looks cool if it's likely that I won't progress very far because the game is too tough.

 

[Vinnk]

Great video Jim (if you are still reading comments here).

My mother is a retired special education teacher and she worked with assistive technology for students both physically and mentally disabled.

I can't imagine any book snobs would ever fault one of her students because they needed to use technological helpers (ORC scanners, text-to-speech, etc) or simplified content in order to enjoy a novel.

Those with special needs could get added enjoyment out of our amazing hobby if more developers included more inclusive options.

And also as a father of 3, I appreciate what Nintendo is doing. Yeah my daughter has to use the golden tanooki and drive assist. And she having a frustration free blast right now. But don't worry, she won't always need these. Soon she will be kicking all our butts without them.

 

[Gravy Boat]

But the whole point of this argument is that there is a need for easier difficulty modes for more casual players, not that the games are hard rather than really hard.

Again, who are you to say that a souls game wouldn't be fun for other people on an easier difficulty mode? Are you saying that the only reason people like the souls games is because they are hard rather than the core gameplay being fun? Yes each aspect could be compared to other games but the souls games are made up of more than just the difficulty. Maybe someone loves the combat options/style or the aesthetic or the way the story is told etc. Just because you think the game would be worthless without being reallyhard doesn't mean that's the case.

And once again, all of this is moot because implementing these changes would affect no one but the people who benefit. It wouldn't be something that would take a lot of resources to implement and would only help increase sales

Spoiler

unless souls fanboys throw a fit and decide not to buy the game because of the inclusion of something they wont need or experience

My prick comment wasn't exactly aimed at you so I apologise if it seemed that way but I stick by the sentiment as I have seen plenty of OPINIONS from people who are either unaware that their opinion makes 0 sense and negatively affects others or they are just arseholes who would begrudge someone else getting something that they don't want.

For the bolded, the difficulty is absolutely the reason the souls games gained traction. That's not even something that can be debated. If you remove the difficulty, you're left with a rather shallow experience.

It would have no affect on me, that was never what I was arguing. I'm saying people who are arguing for an easier souls game don't realise what they're arguing for. It's ironic really, because if you're saying 'I'm a casual gamer and I want an easy mode to enjoy the game', then you would be missing out on the very thing that makes these games unique and enjoyable. Of course the level design is great, and the overall presentation is excellent too, but a very very small percentage of people play these games for those reasons. They're mainly played because they offer a refreshing challenge and make the player work for their rewards. Take that away and you're left with a very different game.

It'd be like asking for a version of PT that isn't scary. The reason PT gained so much traction was because it was scary as hell and that spread like wildfire through word of mouth. If someone came along and asked for a non-scary version that they could enjoy because they can't handle scary games, they'd be asking for a different game entirely. It wouldn't be the same experience that they're asking for. It wouldn't affect anyone else who enjoyed the original, but they need to understand that asking for a non-scary version of PT so they can enjoy the PT experience is a bit of an oxymoron. The same is true for the Souls games and difficulty. Not even just souls, look at The Witness. That game would fall apart with difficulty settings.

 

[Doc_Drop]

So according to you, Gravy Boat, is that the souls games are only good because of the difficulty? I think many many fans would take umbrage with that statement

It ticks my boxes of style, world, level design, combat, fantasy, customisable character, openness, etc. It's the difficulty keeping me away, literally the only thing keeping me away.

 

[Archanfel]

I mean, I'm against easy mode in Souls games but there's really people against Smart Steering in Mario Kart? What a world we live in.

As someone who beat DS1 to death including a SL1 run and Dark Souls 2 twice with 0 deaths. I've beat the others also but was a bit more casual with my runs. I've gotten gud. Hell, I've been getting gud at games my whole life and I still believe that an easy mode would be a good thing. I personally get thrilled by challenge. Some people just want to experience the story, sights offered, and explore the world. I say let them! As long as they separate them from effecting the regular modes experience then I think it would be a good thing. Let more people fall in love with these great games.

 

[Gravy Boat]

So according to you, Gravy Boat, is that the souls games are only good because of the difficulty? I think many many fans would take umbrage with that statement

It ticks my boxes of style, world, level design, combat, fantasy, customisable character, openness, etc. It's the difficulty keeping me away, literally the only thing keeping me away.

I don't think they would. I'm not saying the game has nothing else to offer, but everything it has to offer is all held together by the fact it's challenging. It's the glue.

 

[Doc_Drop]

I don't think the scores of fans saying how good all the other elements are, the way the story is told and the levels designed, and how they excel in these departments. The creature design, the music, etc.

I think you are delusional or it seems a great deal of the fanbase are lying

 

[Dirtyshubb]

For the bolded, the difficulty is absolutely the reason the souls games gained traction. That's not even something that can be debated. If you remove the difficulty, you're left with a rather shallow experience.

It would have no affect on me, that was never what I was arguing. I'm saying people who are arguing for an easier souls game don't realise what they're arguing for. It's ironic really, because if you're saying 'I'm a casual gamer and I want an easy mode to enjoy the game', then you would be missing out on the very thing that makes these games unique and enjoyable. Of course the level design is great, and the overall presentation is excellent too, but a very very small percentage of people play these games for those reasons. They're mainly played because they offer a refreshing challenge and make the player work for their rewards. Take that away and you're left with a very different game.

It'd be like asking for a version of PT that isn't scary. The reason PT gained so much traction was because it was scary as hell and that spread like wildfire through word of mouth. If someone came along and asked for a non-scary version that they could enjoy because they can't handle scary games, they'd be asking for a different game entirely. It wouldn't be the same experience that they're asking for. It wouldn't affect anyone else who enjoyed the original, but they need to understand that asking for a non-scary version of PT so they can enjoy the PT experience is a bit of an oxymoron. The same is true for the Souls games and difficulty.

Oh I know that the difficulty was a big part of the reason that the games became well known, it was one of the reasons I imported the game (before it had a European publisher) but it isnt the sole reason that it is enjoyed today.

This is evident by the fact that in every single thread about how hard the souls games are you have a tonne of people come in saying ‘They aren’t that hard’. Following your logic they shouldn’t actually be invested in the series anymore since they have now got to a point where the game is relatively easy for them yet they come back for every entry and have a lot of fun. If a souls game without difficulty isn’t fun, why do seasoned souls fans still play?

So in a sense a seasoned souls player is in the exact same position as a causal player using an easier mode. They can go round at their own pace, without the fear that they are going to die every 5 minutes yet we don’t have any threads created saying “Why souls players who ‘got gud’ now get no enjoyment out of the games”.

The comparison to PT is rather disingenuous. PT was a demo who’s whole purpose was to scare and advertise an upcoming game, a souls game that has an easy mode is still a very well made 3rd person action game with a story, varied settings and visuals, and a variety of fighting styles to choose from.

Again I understand where you are coming from but it seems you just don’t understand me. You might feel that souls without the hard difficulty is an oxymoron or that only a tiny portion of players play because of aspects other than the difficulty (citation needed by the way, I know I play for the combat and exploration and not mainly for the difficulty) but that is your opinion. You think souls without the difficulty is worthless, others say it isnt.

I have yet to read a suitable answer to why, factually, a souls game with a lower difficulty option would be worthless or a lesser game when the reason for the lower difficulty is for players who currently aren’t able to play at all without giving up. Surely those people might get some enjoyment out of actually playing the game instead of dying repeatedly and giving up, unless you think that isnt the case? Do you think that someone who cant play on normal difficulty would suddenly play like a master on an easier setting? Of course not, they would still need to ‘get gud’ and hone their skills but at least they would have that chance now instead of the current model.

 

[Budi]

So according to you, Gravy Boat, is that the souls games are only good because of the difficulty? I think many many fans would take umbrage with that statement

It ticks my boxes of style, world, level design, combat, fantasy, customisable character, openness, etc. It's the difficulty keeping me away, literally the only thing keeping me away.

Yup, many do get defensive when you suggest that the difficulty was/is the main draw and put the games on the map.

 

[holygeesus]

Any option that makes a game more accessible for someone who would otherwise be unable to enjoy it can only be spun one way surely? It reminds me of the lengths Naughty Dog went to to make (I think) Uncharted 4 playable by those with disabilities.

That's why I reserve the right to say that Arkane were *lazy* not to include such basics as PS4 Pro enhancements in Prey's development.

Edit - yeah UC4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ls_CD4mB42s

 

[tengiants]

The auto steer works in Mario kart because it is a party multiplayer game aiming to be inclusive.

Why people think this justifies difficulty settings in a single player game where the theme is death and rebirth is beyond me. If longing for an easy mode in Dark Souls, considering the game is about the cycle of rebirth and that dying is good, you would be missing the point of the game entirely, and the game would lose its meaning.

The whole reason people like the game is because it breaks tradition, including the tradition of an easy mode and the notion that "dying is bad". Once you've played Dark Souls for a bit and have this click and realize dying is good, you realize these games are as inclusive as any, as demonstrated by people that can complete the game with Guitar Hero controllers.

 

[GrimDarkDarrel]

I'm saying people who are arguing for an easier souls game don't realise what they're arguing for.

You're the one who doesn't realize what they're arguing for. You're right in saying that people who played easy modes of Dark Souls, PT or The Witness wouldn't be getting the same experience as everyone else, but whether it's the same or different doesn't matter. A game can appeal to a lot of people for a lot of reasons, and it's brazenly arrogant to assume you know enough about what people are looking for to take the position that they shouldn't want it.

People will argue that they'll be fun for someone but I'd argue that they just wouldn't.

It's a bizarre way to go through life, trapped in a bubble thinking everything you can't understand doesn't exist. Whatever someone gets out of the experience, good on them.

 

[Airola]

In the end of the day I don't really care about this, but I would prefer not having it.
It as an option is ok, I guess, but I would prefer them making a whole another game to cater to younger children and disabled people.

Basically if this is ok, why not make an option that makes it even more easy? Why not make a bigger scale of difficulty where the easiest ones always guarantees a win so that absolutely everyone could experience winning?

I wouldn't want there to be a Rubik's Cube with an option to make it solve half of it by itself if you can't do it yourself. I wouldn't want a game of solitaire tell me "no, don't do that, do this" when I'm about to make a bad choice. I wouldn't want that to even be optional for people because I like the thought of there being these certain challenges that always are what they were defined to be when they were created.

But as I said, in the end of the day it doesn't really bother me. I would prefer something else, like making a different game that is at its core made for people who would need steering help in Mario Kart, but they make their games the way they want to. If someone gets enjoyment out of that, good for them.

If you're against Smart Steering 'on principle' then you need to work on your ability to empathize with other people because you're an asshole

I'm an asshole anyway so it doesn't bother me to be told being one in this issue too.

 

[SprachBrooks]

Accessibility options in games need to become more prevalent. QoL needs to be fundamental to game design.

 

[Solid SOAP]

In the end of the day I don't really care about this, but I would prefer not having it.
It as an option is ok, I guess, but I would prefer them making a whole another game to cater to younger children and disabled people.

Basically if this is ok, why not make an option that makes it even more easy? Why not make a bigger scale of difficulty where the easiest ones always guarantees a win so that absolutely everyone could experience winning?

I wouldn't want there to be a Rubik's Cube with an option to make it solve half of it by itself if you can't do it yourself. I wouldn't want a game of solitaire tell me "no, don't do that, do this" when I'm about to make a bad choice. I wouldn't want that to even be optional for people because I like the thought of there being these certain challenges that always are what they were defined to be when they were created.

But as I said, in the end of the day it doesn't really bother me. I would prefer something else, like making a different game that is at its core made for people who would need steering help in Mario Kart, but they make their games the way they want to. If someone gets enjoyment out of that, good for them.




I'm an asshole anyway so it doesn't bother me to be told being one in this issue too.

How do you feel about bikes having training wheels?

 

[ghostjoke]

I get other games, not the feverish pry-difficulty-from-our-cold-death-hands, but people are upset about Mario Kart? The same series with the blue shell? Going by the video, it doesn't even seem like the "easy" options could compete with a good player, unless the issue is people aren't getting a good challenge because of the matchmaking system. That's as close as I could see to being angry about this in a Mario Kart.

It should be off as default though or at least asked on first launch.

 

[ramoisdead]

In the end of the day I don't really care about this, but I would prefer not having it.
It as an option is ok, I guess, but I would prefer them making a whole another game to cater to younger children and disabled people.

Basically if this is ok, why not make an option that makes it even more easy? Why not make a bigger scale of difficulty where the easiest ones always guarantees a win so that absolutely everyone could experience winning?

So instead of it being an alternative option that is optional, not mandantory...you would prefer to segregate an audience instead of having a larger audience enjoy the same game.

That's some progressive thinking right there.

The point of this is not having an easy mode in every single obstacle whether it's a game, puzzle toy, or card game. It is how it can be implemented in a way where the person who is less skilled can enjoy the activity the same way someone who is familiar with said activity without making it seem unbalanced.

 

[Airola]

How do you feel about bikes having training wheels?

Learning to play Mario Kart doesn't get you physically hurt or at worst killed.

Learning to ride a bike has absolutely nothing to do with learning to play a video game.

 

[Assanova]

I started Dark Souls a few years ago and never went back to it because I simply didn't have the time for the difficulty. I enjoyed the gameplay and definitely would return to it if it had an easier difficulty setting. I don't see the problem with adding a larger health bar for those who simply don't have the time to keep dying over and over and over again.

I have a job and have time for games too. I just don't have the time to focus all of my free time on just one game. There are too many other good games that I also want to play.

 

[tengiants]

I started Dark Souls a few years ago and never went back to it because I simply didn't have the time for the difficulty. I enjoyed the gameplay and definitely would return to it if it had an easier difficulty setting. I don't see the problem with adding a larger health bar for those who simply don't have the time to keep dying over and over and over again.

I have a job and have time for games too. I just don't have the time to focus all of my free time on just one game. There are too many other good games that I also want to play.

Because the game is dying over and over again. The desensitization to death is the game. There is nothing cool to see at the end of the game so you aren't missing out.

 

[Dirtyshubb]

I started Dark Souls a few years ago and never went back to it because I simply didn't have the time for the difficulty. I enjoyed the gameplay and definitely would return to it if it had an easier difficulty setting. I don't see the problem with adding a larger health bar for those who simply don't have the time to keep dying over and over and over again.

I have a job and have time for games too. I just don't have the time to focus all of my free time on just one game. There are too many other good games that I also want to play.

Because the game is dying over and over again. The desensitization to death is the game. There is nothing cool to see at the end of the game so you aren't missing out.

Sorry Assanova, you are simply wrong. The difficulty is the only cool thing and the fact that you would like to appreciate every other aspect of the game without constantly dying goes against the only thing the game is about.

Spoiler

 

[Always-honest]

Why? What is the problem outside of some weird feeling of superiority some of you seems to get from some people not being able to enjoy the same games as you?

There is no feeling of superiority whatsoever (speaking for myself here). Why do you think that? It's just better to learn it right. It's a slightly more difficult curve but way more satisfying.
It's not such a big step.. It takes a day longer at most.

It's better for people. It has nothing to do with elitism or some crap like that.

You are dumbing people down.

This does NOT mean that controls should be difficult however. Some controls are just needlessly complex.

It's funny that CoD has autoaim which IMO, is much worse than this smart steering and people don't complain about it.

I turn it off whenever i can. Just preference. But aiming with a dual analog controller is very hard compared to driving.
It's not a point and click fest like with a mouse.

The video game fan's version of "bootstraps". Good show.

.

Haven't heard of it.

 

[RoninChaos]

So it seems your argument is basically:

1) a souls game on easy wouldn't be fun for YOU.
2) the games aren't hard for YOU

So basically you don't have an argument, just a personal opinion that you expect everyone else to agree with.

If the next souls game came out with an easy mode that didn't affect the games mechanics or harder difficulties and a less hardcore player used easy mode and enjoyed it you could definitively say they are wrong or not actually having fun? Who's to say what's fun for other people, certainly not you.

Your also saying that the games aren't hard, regardless of the amount of people who also come out to say they find the souls games hard?

Some people really need to learn the damn difference between an optional option that affects no one but the people who would benefit from it and their own selfish, illogical opinions that they would want everyone to live by because it is clear many people aren't able to

Spoiler

or they are just selfish pricks

What you're describing is exactly the attitude of people in the MMO space. You should see the hate that Raid Finder gets in WoW. I've raided hardcore in WoW on and off for years and NONE of the hardcore raiders give a shit about Raid Finder because they don't have to use it. It's the equivalent of tourist mode and people have been screaming that it's been the end for Blizzard and WoW for YEARS. I don't get how having options is bad. If you don't want to play in carebear mode, then don't fucking do it. All this crying about making games more open to people and how that would ruin someone else's experience are claims being made by elitist douche bags.

 

[ramoisdead]

There is no feeling of superiority whatsoever (speaking for myself here). Why do you think that? It's just better to learn it right. It's a slightly more difficult curve but way more satisfying.
It's not such a big step.. It takes a day longer at most.

It's better for people. It has nothing to do with elitism or some crap like that.

You are dumbing people down.

I would love to hear your solution on how to "play it right" for a parent who wants to play Mario Kart 8 Deluxe with their 3 year old or 4 year old child.

 

[Always-honest]

I would love to hear your solution on how to "play it right" for a parent who wants to play Mario Kart 8 Deluxe with their 3 year old or 4 year old child.

Let them practice. Kids learn fast. It's not a problem. (at all)
Pampering people or treating them like idiots will get them nowhere.

 

[Dirtyshubb]

What you're describing is exactly the attitude of people in the MMO space. You should see the hate that Raid Finder gets in WoW. I've raided hardcore in WoW on and off for years and NONE of the hardcore raiders give a shit about Raid Finder because they don't have to use it. It's the equivalent of tourist mode and people have been screaming that it's been the end for Blizzard and WoW for YEARS. I don't get how having options is bad. If you don't want to play in carebear mode, then don't fucking do it. All this crying about making games more open to people and how that would ruin someone else's experience are claims being made by elitist douche bags.

And the most infuriating part is when the goal posts get moved and suddenly the argument is "But they wont learn properly/your dumbing down gamers" which is ridiculous.

You arent suddenly empathetic of the casual players gaming ability, your just using your own annoyance of the idea of them using an easy mode as justification for your shitty argument and moving the goal posts when you get called out for the illogical nature of the original argument. An attempt to come across as caring when the only thing you really care about is yourself.

It almost feels like saying to a bully victim "instead of suspending the bully to make things easy for you, you need to get gud and learn to deal with him". The people asking for an easy mode for them to play a souls game (or any game) arent going to continuing playing until they get gud, they are going to get bored and move on.

Adding an easy mode simply allows them to continue to play while everyone else can continue as if nothing had changed.

Stop pretending to worry about others gaming ability, its none of your business and how they decide to enjoy their hobby is up to them and not you.

 

[Vinnk]

Let them practise. Kids learn fast. It's not a problem. (at all)

Kids give up just as fast.

My 4 year old is having a blast with Mario Kart 8 DX. But she didn't even want to try at first because she had such a frustrating experience with the WiiU Mario Kart 8. She refused to play that one because all she did was drive into walls and off the track.

Maybe I should have forced her to practice more.

She's having so much fun now she might never learn to play it right. She may never git gud. Then what will she be left with? Nothing but happy memories of enjoying a game with her dad. And we all know that's not worth anything.

 

[Always-honest]

Kids give up just as fast.

My 4 year old is having a blast with Mario Kart 8 DX. But she didn't even want to try at first because she had such a frustrating experience with the WiiU Mario Kart 8. She refused to play that one because all she did was drive into walls and off the track.



She's having so much fun now she might never learn to play it right. She may never git gud. Then what will she be left with? Nothing but happy memories of enjoying a game with her dad. And we all know that's not worth anything.

Yeah it's frustrating in the beginning.
It was no different for us when we started. Hell i can still remember when i first started playing shooters with the dual analog controller. Really frustrating. Mostly because the controller isn't suited for that at all (hence why it's so slow and why there is aim assist on consoles) but it's also something to get used to. Some people get there faster than others, but we'll get there.
I was glad with the Wii and the PS move controllers. They were much more immersive and user friendly.

Explain to me why you wrote:"Maybe I should have forced her to practice more."
You think i'm some sort of drill sergeant to my kid or something?

Just have patience with her and she'll be fine. Maybe start out with a game that's easier for a 3 or 4 year old.

 

[ramoisdead]

Let them practice. Kids learn fast. It's not a problem. (at all)
Pampering people or treating them like idiots will get them nowhere.

So basically you're saying a 4 year old should "git gud"? Either you're a world renowned master of having children learn how to play a game in a record setting time or you never were in a stiuation where a kid, whether related or with a parent who is your friend, wanted to play a game with you or vice versa.

I played video games with my nieces and nephews and in some games they find certain games too tough, no matter how much I try to calmly explain it to them. All of a sudden they lose interest. Not every kid has the patience to learn how a game's mechanics work.

 

[RoninChaos]

And the most infuriating part is when the goal posts get moved and suddenly the argument is "But they wont learn properly/your dumbing down gamers" which is ridiculous.

You arent suddenly empathetic of the casual players gaming ability, your just using your own annoyance of the idea of them using an easy mode as justification for your shitty argument and moving the goal posts when you get called out for the illogical nature of the original argument. An attempt to come across as caring when the only thing you really care about is yourself.

It almost feels like saying to a bully victim "instead of suspending the bully to make things easy for you, you need to get gud and learn to deal with him". The people asking for an easy mode for them to play a souls game (or any game) arent going to continuing playing until they get gud, they are going to get bored and move on.

Adding an easy mode simply allows them to continue to play while everyone else can continue as if nothing had changed.

Stop pretending to worry about others gaming ability, its none of your business and how they decide to enjoy their hobby is up to them and not you.

I think that argument comes from people who have been playing games their whole lives and don't understand how daunting it can be to get into certain games or to be a new comer to the hobby in general. Older gamers have ridden the complexity curve with each generation so they're used to games being the way they are, and that's not the case for everybody. People jumping in now don't have the benefit of starting with simple games, controllers that had two buttons, then 6, then 8, etc. Control schemes can be insanely convoluted and movement can be an issue for a lot of people in a lot of games. And it's been my experience that games that just beat the shit out of people at the start are the ones that most people who are just starting out won't even bother with. And as much as I hate them, I understand why tutorials are so present. People need to get familiar with something in order to really be able to keep moving forward. This attitude that games have to be like MOBAs (you know, you get fucking ROFLSTOMPED for 200 hours and then it becomes fun) to be any good or the attitude that there shouldn't be lower difficulty levels for different types of players REEKS of elitist horse shit.

Vinnk also has a point in that if a game is super frustrating for someone, especially a game where you're competing against other people, losing over and over and over doesn't make people want to keep playing. It makes them want to leave. Look at ANY game with an online component and you can see this. People lose their shit if they lose 3 in a row, whether that's because they aren't good, they're just learning, the other players on their team suck, etc. People just say "fuck it" and stop playing. And it's a shitty feeling. This isn't some "Everybody gets a trophy" type thing, which I've seen thrown around in this thread. Getting people comfortable so they can ramp up into more challenging things is AWESOME. It's not something to be ridiculed. You don't scream at kids on training wheels to "GIT GUD SCRUB". That's fucking asinine. I got my wife and son into Overwatch by playing with them and AI bots. They would get comfortable with one level of difficulty and we'd ramp up to the next. If I had them jump into match making immediately they would have quit after 20 minutes. Having options for people is a GOOD thing, not just for all gamers but for the game business in general. The more people that can enjoy something on their terms means the more that game is going to sell, and that's better for the industry as a whole.

 

[NeonBlack]

I have a question. Not trying to shit on any opinions.

What would there be to do if Dark Souls had an easy mode? The entire game is based on the challenge and has minimal story given to the player. Everything is about learning enemy movement and attacks. I wouldn't say it's the only good thing about them but I feel it's a main focus.

 

[Always-honest]

So basically you're saying a 4 year old should "git gud"? Either you're a world renowned master of having children learn how to play a game in a record setting time or you never were in a stiuation where a kid, whether related or with a parent who is your friend, wanted to play a game with you or vice versa.

I played video games with my nieces and nephews and in some games they find certain games too tough, no matter how much I try to calmly explain it to them. All of a sudden they lose interest. Not every kid has the patience to learn how a game's mechanics work.

Wow, what is your people's obsession with the words "Git gud"?....
No, just have patience and practice. I'm a father, by the way.

I do agree that sometimes games have over-complicated controls (early MGS games, goddamn.. ridiculous). Maybe they're too young for those type of games. Mariokart isn't one of them i think. it already has a lot of different ways to control.

As a father: kids learn REALLLYYY fast. Like, it's scary sometimes. Just be patient with her. She'll kick your ass in no time.

 

[Airola]

So instead of it being an alternative option that is optional, not mandantory...you would prefer to segregate an audience instead of having a larger audience enjoy the same game.

Yes. In my opinion games shouldn't be designed to be enjoyable by every single person in the world by default.

Technically every single game could be enjoyable by everyone though. Even the hardest possible game could be enjoyable by everyone if the people who are playing those games would accept the fact that they might not ever be able to beat the game but at least they could still be able to find enjoyment from trying.

In my opinion making games gradually easier and easier for everyone will eventually make people learn to expect winning too easily. At worst it will make people eventually to be not able to enjoy something if they can't feel they are at least somewhat good at it from the get go. People will not be able to get enjoyment from just trying the challenge. They will only get their enjoyment out of winning. And when people are expecting that, more games are designed with that in mind. For them that obviously would be a good thing. For me, not so much.


However, as I said, they make their games the way they want to make their games. I have no issue with that. If this is what they want to do, let them do it. If games turn into something I can't understand or appreciate, it's not the end of the world. If they envision Mario Kart to be a game like that, then that's how it is.

But of course my preference can differ from that and I will say what my preference is if a discussion about it arises.

The point of this is not having an easy mode in every single obstacle whether it's a game, puzzle toy, or card game. It is how it can be implemented in a way where the person who is less skilled can enjoy the activity the same way someone who is familiar with said activity without making it seem unbalanced.

I don't know if we should say something doesn't feel unbalanced if the balance is done by making others feel they drive better when they actually don't.


Personally I think really wide roads with no cliffs or other drops and no hard turns should be enough to let people learn the game.

To apply steering help to, say, Rainbow Roads lessens the mystical quality of those stages.

I mean, you don't have to make every level accessible to everyone. There is a reason Mario Kart games have had different cups from Super Mario Kart onwards. The harder cups are for people who think they are up for the challenge. The easier cups are for people who aren't that skilled in the game. To me, it completely demystifies those stages in the harder cups if people are given an option to be able to drive through them without falling off even if the skills aren't up to that yet.

If toddlers need to be able to finish a course, then make new stages designed for that.


But, as I said, it is what it is. I have no problems to accept that. But I will say what I think about it and what I would prefer in threads like this. And I don't care if that makes me more of an asshole than what I already am.

 

[Dirtyshubb]

Yeah it's frustrating in the beginning.
It was no different for us when we started.

Explain to me why you wrote:"Maybe I should have forced her to practice more."
You think i'm some sort of drill sergeant to my kid or something?

Just have patience with her and she'll be fine. Maybe start out with a game that's easier for a 3 or 4 year old.

Or maybe use the accessibility options in this game and allow her to train and get better and enjoy the game she would like to play, like he is currently doing with her?

If the choice is for her to either give up and move onto something else or to use this option to allow her to play a game she wanted to play, isnt the second option the best way to go?

Again, people need to stop worry about how others play games. I know part of it is probably fear that if a generation of gamers are 'babied' that future games will be dumbed down to accommodate them when they are older but its a stupid idea. No one is asking for the normal difficulty to be changed so it wont affect us more hardcore gamers. And if they are brought up to be happy using an easier difficulty, they arent going to complain down the line that 'games are too hard!' because they will, like a sane person, decide to just go with the difficulty they enjoy and have fun.

The wave of empathy you get in defence of 'keeping games pure and difficult' has always been ridiculous. I can understand wanting someone to enjoy this medium, the more the better, but to start worrying that they arent getting good enough is baffling and narcissistic (everyone should be at least 'this' good to play'.

Now if this was an argument about teaching people how to critically evaluate and understand a story in a film/show/game i could understand, it changes the very meaning of the work for those who dont understand. For games and each persons skill, as long as someone is having fun playing a game it doesnt matter how good they are.

 

[Doc_Drop]

I have a question. Not trying to shit on any opinions.

What would there be to do if Dark Souls had an easy mode? The entire game is based on the challenge and has minimal story given to the player. Everything is about learning enemy movement and attacks. I wouldn't say it's the only good thing about them but I feel it's a main focus.

You're making the mistake in assuming that people still wouldn't find it difficult. I play a great deal of games on easier or easiest setting,doesn't mean I'm steamrolling everything. I wouldn't want it to play itself

 

[Nightii]

I have a question. Not trying to shit on any opinions.

What would there be to do if Dark Souls had an easy mode? The entire game is based on the challenge and has minimal story given to the player. Everything is about learning enemy movement and attacks. I wouldn't say it's the only good thing about them but I feel it's a main focus.

The game would still have the only truly important parts of a video game: the art and story.

Removing the gameplay with some sort of QTE heavy mode is the superior choice, it makes the game stand out on it's good points, instead of being held back by arcane, discriminating gameplay that has no business being a main selling thing in today's market.

 

[Jacobson]

I have a question. Not trying to shit on any opinions.

What would there be to do if Dark Souls had an easy mode? The entire game is based on the challenge and has minimal story given to the player. Everything is about learning enemy movement and attacks. I wouldn't say it's the only good thing about them but I feel it's a main focus.

Players who suck would get the same thing as players who play on normal: the satisfaction of beating an enemy. Just because they did it in fewer tries doesn't mean they won't be able to get that satisfaction.

I'm having a hard time understanding why some people don't want more options for a game to be more accessible. One particular reasoning I really hate is that they would be tempted to lower difficulty to get past a difficult boss. So, just because you have no self-control, you want to take that option away from other people? How selfish is that?

 

[RoninChaos]

Players who suck would get the same thing as players who play on normal: the satisfaction of beating an enemy. Just because they did it in fewer tries doesn't mean they won't be able to get that satisfaction.

I'm having a hard time understanding why some people don't want more options for a game to be more accessible. One particular reasoning I really hate is that they would be tempted to lower difficulty to get past a difficult boss. So, just because you have no self-control, you want to take that option away from other people? How selfish is that?

Some people just want to be "better" than others by using any metric they can think of.