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Ireland has first-in-world national referendum on gay marriage [Update: Yes Wins]

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O

operon

Member
Jackpot said:
Because that's totally key to understanding a country's constitution?
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No but not even reading about it doesn't help either. He keeps posting about people voting on rights but our constitution itself was put to the people in a referendum on the first place. We get his point and understand it. But having marriage equality enshrined in constitution guarantees that no laws can passed with curtails it.

I prefer our way of changing the constitution having to rely on so many states to agree as in the US would be slow. The supreme Court still creates precedents here based on the constitution as well
 
S

Shake Appeal

Member
agiantenemycrab said:
This requirement places an extra safeguard against fast-moving emotionally driven populist movements.
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Yeah, like women demanding the vote or African-Americans seeking an end to Jim Crow.

agiantenemycrab said:
For matters that do not require an amendment then a court case covering the relevant topic will eventually rise to the Supreme Court which will simply make a ruling and set the precedent.
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The Supreme Court has "simply" set a lot of terrible precedents, especially in recent years, because it's a fundamentally undemocratic, hyperpartisan, and "activist" institution.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
The United Kingdom and New Zealand have the best constitutions, although I favour New Zealand because of the electoral system. Israel's is quite good too, but Israel is politically so dysfunctional it doesn't really matter what constitution you give it.

EDIT: Preach it, Shake.
 
I

ivysaur12

Banned
Shake Appeal said:
Yeah, like women demanding the vote or African-Americans seeking an end to Jim Crow.
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This feels like cherry picking, and ignoring the mountain of good that the SCOTUS has done in terms of striking down discriminatory laws as unconstitutional. That's not to say it's perfect -- I don't think anyone has said that? -- but that, in general, it tends to work. And most SCOTUS rulings are extremely lopsided, anyway, even with a more conservative court. The fact that minorities have the ability to appeal to the judicial branch in areas of the country where they could not even think about winning at the ballot box or in the legislature is strong and important.

Yes, they're unelected. As judges should be. Yes, they have a lifetime appointment. As judges should have. And yes, they're partisan. As we all are. SCOTUS judicial review is the best possible court system for a country as large as the United States. It's not perfect. Sometimes they get it wrong. But it generally works.

I don't think it's necessarily better or worse than a Parliamentary system, but I'm happy that we have a strong judicial branch, as opposed to some other countries. I also don't really get where this "throw stones" point came from -- everyone, at this point, understands why the Irish are voting on this. It's not a criticism, just rectify an issue with Ireland's Constitution. Nations do that all the time.

Like, if we're going to criticize how the American constitution doesn't work in 2015, I would never start with the judicial branch. Our legislative branch is in serious need of reform that will never happen.
 
K

Kinsei

Banned
operon said:
No but not even reading about it doesn't help either. She keeps posting about people voting on rights but our constitution itself was put to the people in a referendum on the first place. We get her point and understand it. But having marriage equality enshrined in constitution guarantees that no laws can passed with curtails it.

I prefer our way of changing the constitution having to rely on so many states to agree as in the US would be slow. The supreme Court still creates precedents here based on the constitution as well
Click to expand...

.
 
G

ghostjoke

Banned
The "vote no" signs are bizarre. Half seem to ignore that this applies to lesbians as well, while the rest basically boil down to "cause reasons".

Anyway, voted yes earlier - the only thing that's gotten me away from Witcher 3 this week. Please, Ireland, don't mess this up and be THAT country.
 
I

ivysaur12

Banned
Also, expect the official announcement between 4-5pm tomorrow. That's 8-9AM PDST and 5-6AM EST, for all you Irish in America or otherwise interested parties.
 
J

JehutyRunner

Banned
ivysaur12 said:
Also, expect the official announcement between 4-5pm tomorrow. That's 8-9AM PDST and 5-6AM EST, for all you Irish in America or otherwise interested parties.
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Got your US times mixed, chief.

EST is three hours ahead of PST, not behind. So it'd be 11am-12pm EST, not 5-6am. PST times are correct, though.
 
D

danthefan

Member
Kinsei said:
How would you feel if you had to let a bunch of people vote on whether or not you deserve human rights?

Don't give me that "your position is wrong BS" if you're not one of the ones that would be affected by this.
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I may have missed it, but I don't think I've seen you offer an opinion on how this should be done if not by referendum.

Well?
 
C

Chichikov

Member
Crab said:
The United Kingdom and New Zealand have the best constitutions, although I favour New Zealand because of the electoral system. Israel's is quite good too, but Israel is politically so dysfunctional it doesn't really matter what constitution you give it.
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Israel doesn't have a constitution and its electoral system is pretty bad.

Shake Appeal said:
The Supreme Court has "simply" set a lot of terrible precedents, especially in recent years, because it's a fundamentally undemocratic, hyperpartisan, and "activist" institution.
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I made this point before, but there are two ways to approach a constitution, as an explicit, specific and unchanging document or as a living one.
If it's the former then the legal framework is terrible in achieving that, just look at all those split decisions, it's quite easy to create a framework that is not open to interpretations, linguists do it for fun (and computer scientists do it for money).
If the constitution is to be a living documents, then by the love of god, why would we make fucking lawyers its interpreters?

So yeah, judicial review is a mistake it's nothing but trash.
 
G

Griss

Member
Kinsei said:
That needs to change.
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Nonsense. Our propensity to put important issues to referendum and the pubic vote is one of the greatest things about our nation. Between that and the single transferrable vote, we operate closer to a real democracy than almost any other nation. I mean, we were one of only two countries to get to vote on the Nice Treaty. I'm proud of how important every individual's vote is in Ireland, and I'd defend the system vehemently.

And what's this? Looks like it's produced another good result.
 
N

Ninja Of Chaos

Member
Joni said:
Judicial is however the most embarrassing for a country, that is a country saying they don't want it but that they can't actually legally stop it. Legislature is politicians saying it should happen and the referendum is saying, we want it.
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But I love that statement a judicial process makes. It means that it IS a they always had, but we refused to acknowledge. And the statement from the courts would be the equivalent of "Gay marriage bans are unconstitutional". I.E. You can't stop it.
 
M

Mully

Member
danthefan said:
I lived up there for a couple of years, tbh I'm not really surprised. They're great people up there imo (mental, but great).
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Donegal is a crazy fucking town. Although, Indian takeaway from there is amazing. My mother is from there which explained a lot when I visited the first time.

Any word on Galway? I think that'd be a shoe-in for Yes.
 
A

ab.aeterno

Member
Was reading a Nee York Times article on the referendum and saw this, which made me smile. Nice to see positivity for a change:

Graham Herterich, who runs the Cupcake Bloke bakery in Dublin, has been busy making rainbow spongecakes, with six layers representing the colors of the flag associated with the gay rights movement, to help raise funds for the yes campaign.

“I hope I’ll be getting asked to make wedding cakes after tomorrow,” he said.
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F

foxuzamaki

Doesn't read OPs, especially not his own
TheOnlyOneHeEverFeared said:
I got this through the door yesterday

11048766_412028515646885_7510582655369071993_n.jpg


11351311_412027218980348_8128015908892843755_n.jpg
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Cant help but feel those people have no idea what their photos are being used for, and even the "quotes" they gave them dont sound like they came from a person's mouth.
 
V

Vagabundo

Member
I'm nearly 40 and I don't remember a referendum that young people have been this engaged with. I was on the bus yesterday and loads of young people had YES stickers on. An aul'one with her two kids yapping about her yes vote to a girl she knew who was too young to vote by a few months.

Waiting now for the results to tstart coming in. Counting starts at 8:30 I think.

Kinsei said:
How would you feel if you had to let a bunch of people vote on whether or not you deserve human rights?

Don't give me that "your position is wrong BS" if you're not one of the ones that would be affected by this.
Click to expand...

We're not voting on whether people deserve human rights. We are voting to extend the constitutional protection to the right of marriage to include more families. We already have civil partnerships for same sex couples, but that is not enough, and there is no constitutional protection.

Having a referendum is the purest form of democracy. It is the best way to change laws, it's just not practical for every small law. Representative democracy fills in the gaps.

How would I feel: nervous about the vote - in spite of the over welling polls I'd be worried something would go wrong, upset at some of the comments and posters that the NO campaign spouted, buoyed by all the support for the yes by all sorts of people, and hopefully, this morning, proud of the YES vote. I'm hoping it reminds all Irish gay and lesbians that they are part of our society and we want them to happy.
 
G

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
foxuzamaki said:
Cant help but feel those people have no idea what their photos are being used for, and even the "quotes" they gave them dont sound like they came from a person's mouth.
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'Keith' is a self confessed contrarian. And IMO, an attention seeking contrarian. Heather is an American born again Christian who seems to be misplacing blame for her dad going MIA...
 
G

GoonerTRON

Banned
Crab said:
The United Kingdom and New Zealand have the best constitutions, although I favour New Zealand because of the electoral system. Israel's is quite good too, but Israel is politically so dysfunctional it doesn't really matter what constitution you give it.

EDIT: Preach it, Shake.
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Our (nz) system sucks just a bunch of tories helping out there mates.
 
G

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
Dublin west 2:1 so far...

God, so many weeks of nerves and doubt sewn by the no side. I hope they had fun :/

Not to count chickens, mind you, but getting quite hopeful.
 
G

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
Iona institute apparently conceding a yes victory on news talk just now

Bundoran in Donegal 60% yes in talies sofar :')
 
S

Seraphiel

Banned
Griss said:
Nonsense. Our propensity to put important issues to referendum and the pubic vote is one of the greatest things about our nation. Between that and the single transferrable vote, we operate closer to a real democracy than almost any other nation. I mean, we were one of only two countries to get to vote on the Nice Treaty. I'm proud of how important every individual's vote is in Ireland, and I'd defend the system vehemently.

And what's this? Looks like it's produced another good result.
Click to expand...


Well said.

Although voting on something a number of times until the government got the vote they wanted was bullshit and anti-democratic.
 
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