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Ireland has first-in-world national referendum on gay marriage [Update: Yes Wins]

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ivysaur12

Banned
That needs to change.

It's a pretty draconian Constitution on issues like the family. So, this is option 1 of 1.

In other news, my only living grandparent (maternal grandmother) is from County Cork, but obviously hasn't lived there in a while (she moved to the US when she was young) and I'm not out to her and she has dementia (so there's no point anyways), but apparently she's been keeping up with this, and she made some comment this morning about how she didn't think it was a big deal and would vote Yes.

This is the same woman who voted for Obama in 2008 to spite my grandfather whom she was having a fight with over some event she didn't want to go to.
 

Link

The Autumn Wind
It's a pretty draconian Constitution on issues like the family. So, this is option 1 of 1.

In other news, my only living grandparent (maternal grandmother) is from County Cork, but obviously hasn't lived there in a while (she moved to the US when she was young) and I'm not out to her and she has dementia (so there's no point anyways), but apparently she's been keeping up with this, and she made some comment this morning about how she didn't think it was a big deal and would vote Yes.

This is the same woman who voted for Obama in 2008 to spite my grandfather whom she was having a fight with over some event she didn't want to go to.
So.... thanks Obama?
 

Ashes

Banned
In other news, my only living grandparent (maternal grandmother) is from County Cork, but obviously hasn't lived there in a while (she moved to the US when she was young) and I'm not out to her and she has dementia (so there's no point anyways), but apparently she's been keeping up with this, and she made some comment this morning about how she didn't think it was a big deal and would vote Yes.

I didn't know you could vote if you had dementia. I say it counts. ahem.
 

ivysaur12

Banned
Two things here. First, this highlights the repeated failure of your alternative system to actually secure the rights it supposedly guarantees. Second, it will probably be extended next month in accordance with the whims of nine black-cowled augurs who are deeply polarized and appointed for life in accordance with the whims of the not particularly democratically elected President. Meanwhile, the entrails those augurs will be mulling over were laid out 200 years ago by imperfect men (and only men, and only white men, and only rich white men) in accordance with the wishes of a rich white elite who didn't want to pay taxes. This is still "putting it to a popular vote," just in an extremely diffuse, historically distant, and downright wacky way.

Neither of our systems has proved an ideal way of securing minority rights, and probably no system will until we find those rights inscribed in the atoms of the universe, which we will likely not.

I am absolutely on board with the idea that we shouldn't put minority rights to popular vote. I think that's an important principle. I just also think Americans are liable to throw stones in glass houses when it comes to how effectively or efficiently their respective political system has extended and protected minority rights.

I think it's pretty disingenuous to equate national referendum versus decision handed down by a nation's supreme court, but okay. At some point, someone from a majority will need to grant minorities rights. That can be through referendum, legislatures, or courts. I don't think it's surprising that, at least with the powerful system of judicial review in America, many minorities have turned to courts when legislatures have turned a blind eye (and national referendum don't exist in America outside of the extremely impossible constitutional amendment process, probably for the better). It's also not that surprising that other European countries have turned to the legislature, given their own system of government. And Ireland has to do it by popular vote because of the country's constitution. I think we would all prefer this be the last resort for granting minority rights, because it allows for a campaign that degrades and shames said minority (see: this time, the No campaign).

I'm not really defending the American system, more pointing out that the idea that the "sainted" United States hasn't defined marriage as a fundamental wrong is incorrect. They have. They just haven't extended that right to gay couples, which will, again, most likely be moot next month. I also take issue with the idea that this will somehow grant more legitimacy to the process. In the end? Doesn't matter. No one will really remember how we got here to begin with, just the end result.

I didn't know you could vote if you had dementia. I say it counts. ahem.

She had two strokes in 09, but she didn't vote in 12. Bless.
 

boiled goose

good with gravy
The Constitution of Ireland can only be amended by referendum. This is by design. There are pros and cons to this; not least among the pros is greater democratic representation than under the American system.

While I agree that minority rights should be protected independent of the whims of the electorate, marriage is not usually construed as a "human right" (in Ireland; it is considered a human right under the UDHR, which Americans don't care about). It's a civil right extended by the state, and it is largely appropriate in this context that the state call for a referendum to declare whom it can be extended to.

Could they have done this without amending the constitution? Yes. But that would have made it weaker and more open to revision.

civil or human right is irrelevant. Equal protection applies.
 

Antinash

Member
Great job making this thread OP. Doing your part for the international image of Ireland. Props.

P.S. Vote Yes today people!
 
Just got back from voting. (Voted Yes obviously)


Also I swear I only started seeing No campaign stuff in the last 10 days or so while the Yes side has been out there for months.
 

ivysaur12

Banned
Great job making this thread OP. Doing your part for the international image of Ireland. Props.

P.S. Vote Yes today people!

Thank you! I'm the burgers and fries combo of New England (Irish/Italian), so I've been more invested in this than most. Still have a lot of connections and family in the country, so this would mean a lot.

And it's not like Italy can actually form a working government, let along equalize marriage laws, so, I'll be waiting a long time for that.
 

Quixzlizx

Member
Also incidentally, the holy scripture that is the Bill of Rights was cobbled together by a bunch of bickering, self-appointed slaveowners at the end of the 18th century and could probably use some revising.

The Irish people have gone to the polls to vote on an amendment to their constitution 35 times since 1937. By contrast, there have been just 27 amendments to the U.S. Constitution in over two centuries. But I guess it was near-perfect the first time. Or at least three-fifths perfect, right?

But by all means, America, please continue lecturing us about how our dysfunctional political system needs to change to be more like yours. Lord knows it has served minorities so well over the years!

1. You have quite the inferiority/superiority complex going on there.

2. We're about to have legal same-sex marriage nationwide due to a judicial interpretation of an existing amendment, so comparing the number of amendments as some sort of proof of which country places a higher value on human rights is rather silly.
 
Ireland is the third last Western country to legalize gay marriage, so this referendum system isn't actually speaking too well for the referendum system. But I believe most of Europe legalized same-sex marriage indirectly through popular vote one way or another.
Do you have a source for this? Interesting.

I'd also like to highlight we are classicly a very Catholic country and only decriminalised homosexuality 22 years ago.
 

ivysaur12

Banned
Do you have a source for this? Interesting.

I'd also like to highlight we are classicly a very Catholic country and only decriminalised homosexuality 12 years ago.

Every single English-speaking developed country has fully legalized marriage equality except for Ireland, the United States, Australia, and Northern Ireland. And since Ireland will pass today and the US next month, that will leave Australia and Northern Ireland.

Granted... it's a very small list of countries. But Australia and Northern Ireland will be last!

Also, reports saying that turnout in Dublin is highest, with the lowest turnout in rural areas. I can't see the No side winning if that's the case.

Tomorrow afternoon (local time) sometime.

We should get exit polls tonight, though.
 
civil or human right is irrelevant. Equal protection applies.
Equality before the law, as guaranteed by the Constitution of Ireland, "shall not be held to mean that the State shall not in its enactments have due regard to differences of capacity, physical and moral, and of social function."

Irish society in the past has broadly held, without much legal proceeding or questioning of the matter, that marriage isn't a possibility for same-sex couples, presumably because of their "differences of capacity, physical and moral, and of social function." Irish society now largely seems to hold that this idea is discriminatory and downright hateful and should be amended. This is exactly what is being ascertained by referendum.

To say "equal protection applies" is to beg the question. What the Irish electorate is being asked to do today is, in essence, to specify whether or not equality before the law should apply to same-sex couples seeking civil marriage.

Every single English-speaking developed country has fully legalized marriage equality except for Ireland, the United States, Australia, and Northern Ireland.
Western doesn't mean "English-speaking."
 
We're about to have legal same-sex marriage nationwide due to a judicial interpretation of an existing amendment, so comparing the number of amendments as some sort of proof of which country places a higher value on human rights is rather silly.
It's not proof of which country places a higher value on human rights; it's proof of the relative malleability and adaptability of the Irish Constitution versus the U.S. one, and of the very different approaches to constitutional evolution in the two countries.

(As it happens, the U.S. has an abysmal track record on human rights, but I don't think that's necessarily a feature of its outdated Constitution. I do think it should have given the American people greater impetus to amend their Constitution more often throughout U.S. history and to amend it sooner, but the U.S. system is pretty much designed to be rigid and self-defeating, unintentionally as wary of its electorate as it is of elites.)
 
So angry and ashamed to be a Northern Irish citizen right now as the DUP and others continously give outdated remarks and vote against equal rights and gay marriage for the LGBT community in Northern Ireland. What vile people they are. Wrote a thing earlier on Facebook, but put it on Instagram for all to see after a similar rant on Twitter (I know, I'm a social media marvel): https://instagram.com/p/2-zwRBl2Yu/

But at the same time, I am so proud of my fellow folk in the Republic who are turning out to vote and especially those who vote yes. #hometovote really is the most heart-warming, wonderful thing I've ever seen on Twitter to the point I'm currently keeping a tab on it on Tweetdeck just to give my cold, dark heart some warmth and light into it. I may be angry at the part of the island I live in right now, but I'm also damn proud to be Irish today - and very envious too.

ROI-GAF: Make people in the North listen, stand and be counted, vote yes and do the rest of us Northerners who see equal rights for the LGBT community as common sense proud. xx
 
It's not proof of which country places a higher value on human rights; it's proof of the relative malleability and adaptability of the Irish Constitution versus the U.S. one, and of the very different approaches to constitutional evolution in the two countries.

(As it happens, the U.S. has an abysmal track record on human rights, but I don't think that's necessarily a feature of its outdated Constitution. I do think it should have given the American people greater impetus to amend their Constitution more often throughout U.S. history and to amend it sooner, but the U.S. system is pretty much designed to be rigid and self-defeating, unintentionally as wary of its electorate as it is of elites.)
You're still putting too much emphasis on amendments. The US strongly considers judicial review to make interpretations of existing laws and amendments. Something like gay marriage simply does not need to have an amendment. It is going to be interpreted based on existing amendments.
 
Best of luck Ireland. Really wish that gay marriage would come to a vote in states in the US. While my state (MA) has had de facto legalized gay marriage since the early 2000s, I was always hoping to vote yes and make a statement that way rather than having the courts decide. WHile I've supported marriage equality, I would really prefer the public referendum... Especially when it'll obviously pass, like in Massachusetts.
 

ivysaur12

Banned
That's a parody account.

Not that I'd put it past the fuckers.

Dammit. Must look for Verified next time.

Also -- RTE now reporting turnout to be around 60%, and will be the highest for any referendum in the history of Ireland. This is good for the yes side, since most of the turnout seems to be driven from urban areas.

And wow:

Gerry Lynch ‏@gerrylynch
If figures being cited by @AodhanORiordain are representative, could be ABOVE a General Election turnout on the north side. #MarRef
 

Quixzlizx

Member
It's not proof of which country places a higher value on human rights; it's proof of the relative malleability and adaptability of the Irish Constitution versus the U.S. one, and of the very different approaches to constitutional evolution in the two countries.

(As it happens, the U.S. has an abysmal track record on human rights, but I don't think that's necessarily a feature of its outdated Constitution. I do think it should have given the American people greater impetus to amend their Constitution more often throughout U.S. history and to amend it sooner, but the U.S. system is pretty much designed to be rigid and self-defeating, unintentionally as wary of its electorate as it is of elites.)

Not unintentionally. The people who crafted the Constitution stated pretty plainly that they did not trust the "tyranny of the majority." I can't say I disagree with them when it comes to issues of equality or civil rights... if anything, a national referendum a decade ago would have enshrined a same-sex marriage ban in the Constitution. Not that that particular statement reflects well on us, but there is reasoning behind the amendment process. And society's changing viewpoints tend to eventually be reflected in the judiciary, which is why we've gone from states passing marriage bans a decade ago to the SCOTUS being about to legalize it federally.

I'll ignore the editorial commentary such as "self-defeating."
 

HylianTom

Banned
That's a parody account.

Not that I'd put it past the fuckers.

One of my favorite parody accounts.

Another one that's been really entertaining through the process: @WhispersNewsLTD

RonanReaction.png
 
Dammit. Must look for Verified next time.

Also -- RTE now reporting turnout to be around 60%, and will be the highest for any referendum in the history of Ireland. This is good for the yes side, since most of the turnout seems to be driven from urban areas.

And wow:

That's a great turnout
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
I think we would all prefer this be the last resort for granting minority rights, because it allows for a campaign that degrades and shames said minority (see: this time, the No campaign).

You say this, but I'm strongly unconvinced. If it just goes through as a result of judicial procedure, then the issue festers. When this referendum returns a Yes, as I fully expect it to do so, it has the ultimate air of finality to it. The bigots and homophobes will have aired every argument they have had available to them, and the public will have said "You are wrong". I think the end result is a much better one for the LGBT community, because instead of just knowing that the courts support you but your fellow citizens may still think you're sinful and wrong and think they're in the right to do so, you know that society as a whole supports you. That's... a pretty huge kind of support to have.

The way I see it, the judicial approach is the worst approach to take and the plebiscite approach the best followed by the legislative.
 
Yep, typo. Sorry about that.

Every single English-speaking developed country has fully legalized marriage equality except for Ireland, the United States, Australia, and Northern Ireland. And since Ireland will pass today and the US next month, that will leave Australia and Northern Ireland.

Granted... it's a very small list of countries. But Australia and Northern Ireland will be last!

Also, reports saying that turnout in Dublin is highest, with the lowest turnout in rural areas. I can't see the No side winning if that's the case.



We should get exit polls tonight, though.
Ah English speaking, not Western. Good to know. Was wondering what I missed haha
 

ivysaur12

Banned
You say this, but I'm strongly unconvinced. If it just goes through as a result of judicial procedure, then the issue festers. When this referendum returns a Yes, as I fully expect it to do so, it has the ultimate air of finality to it. The bigots and homophobes will have aired every argument they have had available to them, and the public will have said "You are wrong". I think the end result is a much better one for the LGBT community, because instead of just knowing that the courts support you but your fellow citizens may still think you're sinful and wrong and think they're in the right to do so, you know that society as a whole supports you. That's... a pretty huge kind of support to have.

The way I see it, the judicial approach is the worst approach to take and the plebiscite approach the best followed by the legislative.

No one will remember how this was legalized in even five years. It doesn't matter. Going through the courts is the easiest, least costly, and least embarrassing way for minorities. A referendum is the absolute worst way -- look at the pain caused by Prop 8.

Judicial > Legislature >>>>>> poop >>>> referendum

EDIT:

Colum McGuire ‏@ColumMcGuire
Some parts of Dublin are expected to reach a 70% turnout #MarRef #VoteYes #MakeGraTheLaw

EDIT 2:

Much lower turnout in rural villages, around 40%, it seems.
 
No one will remember how this was legalized in even five years. It doesn't matter. Going through the courts is the easiest, least costly, and least embarrassing way for minorities. A referendum is the absolute worst way -- look at the pain caused by Prop 8.

Judicial > Legislature >>>>>> poop >>>> referendum

EDIT:
But on the other hand it's really brought the LGBT community of Ireland closer together. I agree it's the worst way but it's not been all bad.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
No one will remember how this was legalized in even five years. It doesn't matter. Going through the courts is the easiest, least costly, and least embarrassing way for minorities. A referendum is the absolute worst way -- look at the pain caused by Prop 8.

Judicial > Legislature >>>>>> poop >>>> referendum.

Nonsense. People clearly do remember these things. People still bang on about the European referendum of 1975 in Britain, and that was over four decades ago. Referendums invite a national debate in a way that absolutely nothing else does. Do you think that the Scottish independence debate is going to be forgotten any time soon? Of course not. They can have huge impacts on the national psyche - and that impact is an incredible impact to make when it says "we, as a community, embrace LGBT people". You don't get that from a court ruling.

I also disagree it's the easiest way. If this were true, then it should also be true that countries with strong judicial systems have embraced gay marriage before those with weak judicial systems. This is not true, and if anything is the *opposite* of true. Australia, the United States and Ireland all have, amongst English speaking countries, relatively strong judicial systems - particularly the United States. As it stands, the odds are very reasonable that the United States will be the last to have nation-wide gay marriage, or at the best very slightly before Australia. Meanwhile, the United Kingdom, where judicial powers are relatively non-existant, passed a gay marriage bill under the aegis of a socially conservative government. The reason, or at least one of the reasons, was that the LGBT movement never tried going through the courts and was a *lot* more active at having conversations with the public at large. The pattern is even stronger when we expand past English-speaking countries. Belgium, the Netherlands, Spain, Canada - none of these countries have histories of strong judicial oversight.

It may be the cheapest way, sure. But given that a) it's probably the slowest way, and b) the actual effect it has on integrating the LGBT community into society at large is so much smaller, I just can't stand by relying on the courts.
 

Joni

Member
No one will remember how this was legalized in even five years. It doesn't matter. Going through the courts is the easiest, least costly, and least embarrassing way for minorities. A referendum is the absolute worst way -- look at the pain caused by Prop 8.

Judicial > Legislature >>>>>> poop >>>> referendum
.
Judicial is however the most embarrassing for a country, that is a country saying they don't want it but that they can't actually legally stop it. Legislature is politicians saying it should happen and the referendum is saying, we want it.
 

ivysaur12

Banned
Nonsense. People clearly do remember these things. People still bang on about the European referendum of 1975 in Britain, and that was over four decades ago. Referendums invite a national debate in a way that absolutely nothing else does. Do you think that the Scottish independence debate is going to be forgotten any time soon? Of course not. They can have huge impacts on the national psyche - and that impact is an incredible impact to make when it says "we, as a community, embrace LGBT people". You don't get that from a court ruling.

I also disagree it's the easiest way. If this were true, then it should also be true that countries with strong judicial systems have embraced gay marriage before those with weak judicial systems. This is not true, and if anything is the *opposite* of true. Australia, the United States and Ireland all have, amongst English speaking countries, relatively strong judicial systems - particularly the United States. As it stands, the odds are very reasonable that the United States will be the last to have nation-wide gay marriage, or at the best very slightly before Australia. Meanwhile, the United Kingdom, where judicial powers are relatively non-existant, passed a gay marriage bill under the aegis of a socially conservative government. The reason, or at least one of the reasons, was that the LGBT movement never tried going through the courts and was a *lot* more active at having conversations with the public at large. The pattern is even stronger when we expand past English-speaking countries. Belgium, the Netherlands, Spain, Canada - none of these countries have histories of strong judicial oversight.

It may be the cheapest way, sure. But given that a) it's probably the slowest way, and b) the actual effect it has on integrating the LGBT community into society at large is so much smaller, I just can't stand by relying on the courts.

On my phone so I can't post a long response, but I'm going to pull a you and reply with "Nonsense" on this.

Unless absolutely necessary (see: Ireland) we should never, ever have a vote on marriage equality by popular referendum.
 
Just back from voting, 4 yes votes in this house!

I like our system. Much better than having fixed term politicians or judges making whatever changes to our constitution as they see fit. Referendums give you a chance to go out and change peoples minds too.

Cant wait to run for president in a few years
 

ICKE

Banned
It is quite interesting that amending the constitution in Ireland only requires a simple majority. Generally speaking I don't really like that approach, because the highest law should not be open to populist movements.

In Finland you need a simple majority to begin the process. Then the proposal will be put on hold and after the next parliamentary election there will be another vote. At that point you need 2/3 of all the votes to seal the deal.

Then again, Ireland seems to function rather well as a society so who am I to criticize.
 

boiled goose

good with gravy
Equality before the law, as guaranteed by the Constitution of Ireland, "shall not be held to mean that the State shall not in its enactments have due regard to differences of capacity, physical and moral, and of social function."

Irish society in the past has broadly held, without much legal proceeding or questioning of the matter, that marriage isn't a possibility for same-sex couples, presumably because of their "differences of capacity, physical and moral, and of social function." Irish society now largely seems to hold that this idea is discriminatory and downright hateful and should be amended. This is exactly what is being ascertained by referendum.

To say "equal protection applies" is to beg the question. What the Irish electorate is being asked to do today is, in essence, to specify whether or not equality before the law should apply to same-sex couples seeking civil marriage.


Western doesn't mean "English-speaking."

What I'm saying and you also furthered is that the change could come from just the courts. No referendum is explicitly necessary. Though I don't disagree a referendum could be stronger.
 
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