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Ireland has first-in-world national referendum on gay marriage [Update: Yes Wins]

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E

Eric C

Member
CDX said:
Map & Results taken from wikipedia

YtTxAqP.png


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Congrats Ireland!
Click to expand...


Wow!

Gay Marriage won in a landslide!
 
HalterGratis

HalterGratis

Member
To all the comments saying this should not have been done by popular vote, you need to consider the the nature of the Irish legal system.

The pre-referendum constitution explicitly defined marriage as being between a man and a woman.

Any change to the constitution must be voted on by the people according to Irish law and there is no way around that. A referendum to the constitution is the only way to guarantee protection for same sex unions. If you just legislate for it instead, then there is no protection that the high court could threaten it in future and it only takes some assholes to get into government to try to overturn it. With a referendum, this is a permanent and irrefutable change - it cannot be changed without ANOTHER referendum.

Note that the ammendment makes marriage essentially genderless; ‘Marriage may be contracted in accordance with law by two persons without distinction as to their sex’; the implication is marriage equality for everyone.

Its feckin' fantastic that a majority of a national population resoundingly votes in favour of giving equal status to a minority.
 
N

NateDog

Member
Wish I was able to hit the city centre today, my girlfriend passed through at around 5 and said it was nuts, I seriously wish I didn't have to go to bloody work. Paddy's Day is a load of shit to me considering pretty much nothing but people getting disgustingly pissed is all that goes on but it just looked like the atmosphere in town was amazing for this today. Still saddens me that over 600K would vote no. Beggars can't be choosers I suppose and this is a great day for the country but I still think there will be a huge amount of extra work to do to really nail this down as a moment of change, bigotry in this country won't end that quickly.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Morrigan Stark said:
[Citation needed]
Click to expand...

There are 18 countries which currently allow gay marriage at a nation-wide level (17 if you exclude the UK because of Northern Ireland, but that's a pretty complicated issue in and of itself). Of that 18, 15 did so via the legislature, and 1 did it by referendum (Ireland itself). Only two countries had success using the courts, Brazil and South Africa. In some of those 15 countries, that courts actually *opposed* the bill at first - Belgium's supreme court the Council of State ended up delaying gay marriage by almost two years.

Meanwhile, in the United States, gay marriage is still not a nation-wide phenomena *despite* the fact the majority of the public supports it; because the fight has to take place in the courts rather than being a legislative matter.
 
I

ivysaur12

Banned
Crab said:
There are 18 countries which currently allow gay marriage at a nation-wide level (17 if you exclude the UK because of Northern Ireland, but that's a pretty complicated issue in and of itself). Of that 18, 15 did so via the legislature, and 1 did it by referendum (Ireland itself). Only two countries had success using the courts, Brazil and South Africa. In some of those 15 countries, that courts actually *opposed* the bill at first - Belgium's supreme court the Council of State ended up delaying gay marriage by almost two years.

Meanwhile, in the United States, gay marriage is still not a nation-wide phenomena *despite* the fact the majority of the public supports it; because the fight has to take place in the courts rather than being a legislative matter.
Click to expand...

Marriage equality as fully legalized in Canada by their court system.

And again, a lot of that has to do with the different governmental structures set up in each country. Not only does the US not have a national referendum procedure, but in said hypothetical marriage referendum, it wouldn't be an assured victory like it was in Ireland. A loss would be painful, devastating, and heartbreaking. Look at Prop 8 and how it basically tore California apart until the issue was rectified by the courts.

There's a reason why, worldwide, gay marriage advocates want to stay away from referendums. At the end of the day it won't matter -- do you think anyone in Massachusetts remembers that it was the state supreme court striking down their gay marriage ban? No. And no one cares, because this issue affects the lives of such a small group of people.

Support for gay marriage has accelerated the fastest in states that already have marriage equality. That's all that really matters. No one really cares how it was enacted. It doesn't make a win more "legitimate", either.

http://www.newyorker.com/news/amy-davidson/will-ireland-say-yes-to-same-sex-marriage

The complaint about judges deciding such matters, rather than voters, misses the point that going to court—stating one’s case and testifying for it—is a part of democracy. It’s also a misunderstanding of how rights are realized in the United States. We have a constitution, in part, so that the majority cannot abuse a minority. We also have a constitution that, for a long time, promised more than our political system was willing to deliver. Even after amendments were passed that gave women and racial minorities equal rights in theory, it took lawsuits and, as with the Voting Rights Act, legislation to get those rights acknowledged in a practical sense. Martin Luther King, Jr., in his speech in Washington in August, 1963, compared the commitments of the Constitution to a check that had, in the past, “come back marked ‘insufficient funds.’ ” The time had come, he said, to cash it.

Same-sex couples have come to the Supreme Court for the same reason, arguing that the Fourteenth Amendment should be a guarantor of marriage equality in all fifty states. A decision is due next month. If those couples weren’t able to get their day in court earlier, it was because they had to live in a shadow; homosexual sex was criminalized for a long time in this country, too, in some states as late as 2003. If Ireland votes Yes it will, as Kenny said, be a joyous and momentous day—and the Irish should be proud. But that shouldn’t leave America with an Ireland-referendum inferiority complex. We can get to equality our own way.
Click to expand...

Of the states that haven't legalized same-sex marriage, only two (Michigan and Ohio) have support that could go over 50%. It's not like the other states are being held back by the court. Gay marriage is already legal for over 70% of the population in the states. We also had the 6th jurisdiction in the world to legalize gay marriage, thanks to the courts.

HalterGratis said:
To all the comments saying this should not have been done by popular vote, you need to consider the the nature of the Irish legal system.

The pre-referendum constitution explicitly defined marriage as being between a man and a woman.

Any change to the constitution must be voted on by the people according to Irish law and there is no way around that. A referendum to the constitution is the only way to guarantee protection for same sex unions. If you just legislate for it instead, then there is no protection that the high court could threaten it in future and it only takes some assholes to get into government to try to overturn it. With a referendum, this is a permanent and irrefutable change - it cannot be changed without ANOTHER referendum.

Note that the ammendment makes marriage essentially genderless; ‘Marriage may be contracted in accordance with law by two persons without distinction as to their sex’; the implication is marriage equality for everyone.

Its feckin' fantastic that a majority of a national population resoundingly votes in favour of giving equal status to a minority.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I get why. I just wish it didn't have to come to this.
 
H

HowZatOZ

Banned
Absolutely disgusting that Australia has yet to do anything on this subject. We still hold religion on a pedestal in a time where it is pointless and just getting in the way of those wanting to enjoy their respected lives as any human being would want.

It won't happen any time soon with Abbott the bat in charge, and especially with how religion is so seeded in our country. The fact a known paedophile can be let back into the churches in this country is shameful and disgusting.
 
S

Seraphiel

Banned
As an Irishman I believe that this decision being taken by referendum was a fantastic thing.

The law is the law and constitutional change must be voted by the people.

Secondly, because it is a decision by the people there can be no claim of it being forced upon the people against their wishes.


The first country by popular vote to make this choice, a proud moment for the nation.
 
G

Griss

Member
I spent today at a friend's father's funeral. His girlfriend is transgender, and a gay couple gave a tribute too. Afterwards when I was able to explain what had happened in Ireland today I was able to bring some very real joy to a sad day. I'm drunk as hell now but even prouder than I am drunk.
 
K

Korey

Member
Seraphiel said:
As an Irishman I believe that this decision being taken by referendum was a fantastic thing.

The law is the law and constitutional change must be voted by the people.

Secondly, because it is a decision by the people there can be no claim of it being forced upon the people against their wishes.

The first country by popular vote to make this choice, a proud moment for the nation.
Click to expand...

Do you feel like these things "must be voted by the people":
- Letting women vote?
- Letting black people own property?
 
B

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
Crab said:
There are 18 countries which currently allow gay marriage at a nation-wide level (17 if you exclude the UK because of Northern Ireland, but that's a pretty complicated issue in and of itself). Of that 18, 15 did so via the legislature, and 1 did it by referendum (Ireland itself). Only two countries had success using the courts, Brazil and South Africa. In some of those 15 countries, that courts actually *opposed* the bill at first - Belgium's supreme court the Council of State ended up delaying gay marriage by almost two years.

Meanwhile, in the United States, gay marriage is still not a nation-wide phenomena *despite* the fact the majority of the public supports it; because the fight has to take place in the courts rather than being a legislative matter.
Click to expand...

The US could handle the issue through legislation, but Congress has been broken for the last 7 years. A functional congress could have amended the constitution, but as I said earlier that won't happen. The only reason this is a court battle in the US and not being handled through legislation is congress being a dick.
 
S

Seraphiel

Banned
Korey said:
Do you feel like these things "must be voted by the people":
- Letting women vote?
- Letting black people own property?
Click to expand...

Those things are not aspects of the Irish Constitution so it is a mute point.

Secondly in places where it is / was a problem, their constitutions might not be constructed in the same manner and not require a popular vote to inact change.

Marriage should never have been stated in the constitution in the manner it previously was / in fact not at all.

DeValera betrayed the ideals of the 1916 proclamation when creating a Catholic conservative constitution.

If it had simply been a legal, rather than a constitutional matter then I agree that no vote should have been or would have been needed.

The fact that it was needed and won has allowed one of the clearest ever displays of support on a national basis for the equality of rights for men and women of all sexual orientation's ever to be seen.

This is a great win for LGBT community and a light that stands out in comparison against the modern repressive regimes like Russia.

In this instance a country has come out and said, we got your back, we support you.

Whether it should have been needed or not, it is a beautiful thing.
 
G

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
HowZatOZ said:
Absolutely disgusting that Australia has yet to do anything on this subject. We still hold religion on a pedestal in a time where it is pointless and just getting in the way of those wanting to enjoy their respected lives as any human being would want.

It won't happen any time soon with Abbott the bat in charge, and especially with how religion is so seeded in our country. The fact a known paedophile can be let back into the churches in this country is shameful and disgusting.
Click to expand...

Don't know who this guy is, but this may be of relevance:

http://www.tonyburke.com.au/ronaldmiz3n/statement_24_may_2015

This referendum is changing minds. First national popular vote being so 'yes' sends strong message that this isn't just some liberal elite thing.
 
D

danthefan

Member
Korey said:
Do you feel like these things "must be voted by the people":
- Letting women vote?
- Letting black people own property?
Click to expand...

Women had the right to vote from day 1 in Ireland and I don't believe there's any reference to anyone's skin colour in the Irish constitution so you're not making much of a point here.
 
I

ivysaur12

Banned
Never doubt the stupidity of Abbott, but I think once the US has gay marriage legalized next month (and following the Irish referendum), he's going to be pressured to allow a free vote on the issue.

And then Northern Ireland will be alone...
 
Z

Zenithean

Banned
One of the happiest days of my life, and I'm not exaggerating. My family are primarily of Irish background (with some Afro-Caribbean for good measure) and have actually spoken about returning home someday. I still haven't come out to them yet (it's terrifying and I'm a chicken), but everyday I'm more hopeful of that prospect. This legislation literally brings a tear to my eye, and it's made all the better by how unanimous it was. I was really worried it wouldn't pass. Times are looking up, at least in Europe.
 
G

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
Chariot said:
If Germany would be so kind to move it's arse. I mean, we're close, it's not bad for homosexuals, but we're still not there. And I think the most push against this comes from Bavaria.
Click to expand...

Speaking of which, some coverage of German reaction here:

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/worl...ireland-s-lead-on-same-sex-marriage-1.2223984

Germany’s opposition parties have demanded that Berlin’s grand coalition follow Ireland’s example and legalise same-sex marriage.

Friday’s vote, and Saturday’s result, generated huge interest in Germany – topping the main evening news and shattering many dearly-held if dusty cliches about the “grüne Insel” or green isle.

Green Party leaders lead the charge yesterday, warning Chancellor Angela Merkel that she “can’t just sit out” the growing calls for marriage equality across Europe.
“It’s time, Frau Merkel,” said Mrs Katrin Göring-Eckardt, co-leader of the Greens in the Bundestag and an influential figure in Germany’s Lutheran church.

The Irish vote was a “great signal: the same love deserves the same respect”, she said, adding she was confident that Germany would soon follow Ireland’s example.
Click to expand...

The surprise and delight in Germany at the Irish vote was laced with a tone of impatience. Where Germany once lead the way on gay rights in Europe – introducing same-sex civil partnerships in 2001 – it was now, many fumed, lagging behind.

“Ireland is possible in Germany, if it only dared” - that was the message of Germany’s leading Süddeutsche Zeitung newspaper to its readers after the Irish marriage equality vote.
Click to expand...
 
I

ivysaur12

Banned
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/poli...ave-same-sex-marriages-by-christmas-1.2223686

Preparations will begin within days to pass a law to give effect to the Constitutional amendment and allow same-sex couples to marry for the first time.

The resounding Yes vote will result in a new sentence being added to Article 41 of the Constitution. It reads: “Marriage may be contracted in accordance with law by two persons without distinction as to their sex.” The Irish version, which takes precedence, reads: “Féadfaidh beirt, gan beann ar a ngnéas, conradh pósta a dhéanamh de réir dlí.” It means that a marriage between two people of the same sex will now be recognised by the State and will have the same status under the Constitution as a marriage between a man and a woman.

To give effect to the amendment, the Oireachtas will enact the Marriage Bill 2015, which will state in law for the first time the principle that being of the same sex is no longer an impediment to marriage. Officials in the Department of Justice will begin drafting the legislation next week. A spokesman said the Bill would be prioritised with a view to it being passed by the Oireachtas before the summer recess.

The law will set out the practical changes to come. When it comes into force, two people getting married will declare that they accept each other as “husband and wife” or as “spouses of each other”. It will also state that a change of gender will have no effect on marriage.

There will be no new civil partnerships from the day the law comes into effect. Existing civil partners will retain that status and the rights, privileges, obligations and liabilities that go with it unless they choose to marry, but there will be no automatic “upgrade” from partnership to marry.

Whether civil partners marry is up to them. If they do, their civil partnership will be dissolved.

The law will also make clear that religious solemnisers will not be obliged to solemnise the marriage of a same-sex couple, and that the same prohibited degrees of relationship will apply to same-sex marriages as to opposite-sex marriages.

When the Marriage Bill has been drafted, it will go to Cabinet for a formal sign-off. It will then be enacted by the Oireachtas - probably in July - before practical work is done on changing marriage forms and procedures. Finally, the Minister for Justice will sign a commencement order.

A three-month notice period for civil marriages means that, all going to plan, the first same-sex marriage in Ireland could take place before Christmas.
Click to expand...

3 month waiting period is insane.
 
J

JehutyRunner

Banned
ivysaur12 said:
Never doubt the stupidity of Abbott, but I think once the US has gay marriage legalized next month (and following the Irish referendum), he's going to be pressured to allow a free vote on the issue.

And then Northern Ireland will be alone...
Click to expand...

For the latter, I really want it to be sooner than later. Then again, as much as I'd like to say we can't be as bad as Australia in regards to this, I then remember that, hey, the DUP is in charge.

*sigh*
 
I

ivysaur12

Banned
Africanus said:
The younger generation can always change. Whereas religious doctrine takes a bit longer.

However, I agree with your belief that those two regions are very anti-homosexual.
Click to expand...

While South Africa is the exception, you'll start to see urban centers in countries like Mozambique become more and more liberal towards gay rights which will probably drive support in Africa. We're still years away from that, though.

And in Asia, you'd hope that South Korea and Taiwan (more likely Taiwan) will legalize marriage equality in the next decade.

JehutyRunner said:
For the latter, I really want it to be sooner than later. Then again, as much as I'd like to say we can't be as bad as Australia in regards to this, I then remember that, hey, the DUP is in charge.

*sigh*
Click to expand...

Thankfully, it's now legal in all major Western European countries (save Italy, which, like, lol Italy come on), so there's a tremendous amount of pressure.

And then you'd hope Germany would lead the charge in Central Europe.
 
S

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
ivysaur12 said:
Marriage equality as fully legalized in Canada by their court system.
Click to expand...

This is a "sort-of":
- Courts, province by province, legalized SSM on constitutional grounds.
- 9 of the 10 provinces did so (Alberta was the exception) and I believe at least one of the territories.
- The federal government asked the Supreme Court to consider, hypothetically, the subject (we can do this in Canada--standing rules are different). It did so to essentially delay having to act because they could see which way the wind was blowing but wanted polling to improve before they'd have to take a divisive stance.
- The court eventually gave back an advisory ruling that suggested if the government did not adopt substantive equality for same-sex couples the court would strike down existing laws if they were challenged
- Parliament eventually passed SSM
- The issue immediately became a dead-letter afterwards despite protests by conservative groups about judicial tyranny and having a revote and rah-rah-rah.
- Canada doesn't have any easy path for a ballot measure/referendum in any province or federally, so that was never really on the table conceptually.

So Canada is sort of a vindication of both the court strategy and the legislative strategy.

B-Dubs said:
The US could handle the issue through legislation, but Congress has been broken for the last 7 years. A functional congress could have amended the constitution, but as I said earlier that won't happen. The only reason this is a court battle in the US and not being handled through legislation is congress being a dick.
Click to expand...

The momentum for federal constitutional amendment in the US stalled well before "Congress has been broken" (in the modern context). The distance of time between the 26th Amendment and the 27th--which was honestly as a matter of history a fluke that was initiated by an undergraduate student rather than a sort of top-down political process the way you're describing--and the total lack of appetite since is a big indication. The failure of the ERA reconditioned political culture in the US such that amendment is no longer a viable strategy for issues where there is something of a partisan divide, and no longer necessary for issues where there is no such divide. The failure of Meech Lake and Charlottetown in Canada caused the same sort of social conditioning. Both countries have essentially dead constitutions at this point.
 
I

ivysaur12

Banned
Stumpokapow said:
This is a "sort-of":
- Courts, province by province, legalized SSM on constitutional grounds.
- 9 of the 10 provinces did so (Alberta was the exception) and I believe at least one of the territories.
- The federal government asked the Supreme Court to consider, hypothetically, the subject (we can do this in Canada--standing rules are different). It did so to essentially delay having to act because they could see which way the wind was blowing but wanted polling to improve before they'd have to take a divisive stance.
- The court eventually gave back an advisory ruling that suggested if the government did not adopt substantive equality for same-sex couples the court would strike down existing laws if they were challenged
- Parliament eventually passed SSM
- The issue immediately became a dead-letter afterwards despite protests by conservative groups about judicial tyranny and having a revote and rah-rah-rah.
- Canada doesn't have any easy path for a ballot measure/referendum in any province or federally, so that was never really on the table conceptually.

So Canada is sort of a vindication of both the court strategy and the legislative strategy.
Click to expand...

Right, I was more speaking to the finality of the advisory ruling. Didn't mean to dilute the Canadian process.
 
F

funkystudent

Member
Great weekend for the country. Even walking through Dublin today and seeing so many people still celebrating.. Its touching as heck.


And while the Irish system isnt perfect I think it works ok for the size and makeup of the country. We are a relatively young country and as time has passed we become more open to change and modernization and that is spreading fast in the last 20 years.

That isnt the same for other countries though and I dont think it would work everywhere where I think sometimes you need the hand of the lawmakers dragging the population forward and not the other way around.

But it isnt perfect and we still fuck up referendums from time to tome. (See abortion vote and the mess it has left)
 
I

ivysaur12

Banned
Also, from what I can tell, the process actually goes this like:

Government decides they can't legalize marriage equality through Oireachtas without potentially running into constitutional issues.

Referendum to change the constitution. Refendum passes, but doesn't actually legalize gay marriage in the country the day of its passage.

Oireachtas will pass marriage equality bill through statute. I suppose this could also happen through a gay couple being denied a marriage licenses and then suing, which is how this will happen in America come June (sort of, every state already has cases pending so it'll be a very quick process). Though I'm not as familiar with the Irish legal system as the American one.

It will then be the bill that will pass Oireachtas next week that will actually legalize gay marriage in the country now that all the constitutional barriers have been removed. Even if Oireachtas didn't want to pass a bill, this wouldn't be necessary because all it would take would be a lawsuit, but since there's like 5 TDs who are opponents of marriage equality, this is quicker.

So, it's actually a combination of a referendum and a statutory law.
 
G

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
The Irish Times reckons the first weddings could be in September.

Also, a really great piece from David Norris today, running through some of the history:

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/remarkable-journey-from-criminal-to-equal-citizen-1.2224305

Then what about those people who said that their marriages would be diminished? I very much doubt if married couples all over the country woke up yesterday, looked at each other and said: “Oh darling, I feel so much less married to you today.” I never believed in this parsimonious, dog-in-the-manger approach. I am with Daniel O’Connell, the great apostle of Catholic emancipation. When some mean-minded members of the Protestant ascendancy suggested that giving freedom and dignity to their Catholic fellow citizens would diminish their own position, O’Connell replied that freedom and dignity were not finite resources. Paradoxically, by giving them to other people you actually increased the general sum total of these virtues and of the public welfare.

It is all over now, as the Rolling Stones used to sing, and I forgive and forget the No campaigners. But I am immensely grateful to my heterosexual fellow citizens who went out of their way to vote Yes. Without them we could not have won. I will always be grateful, having been voted by a majority of the citizens of the Irish Republic to be at last a free and equal member of society.
Click to expand...
 
V

Vagabundo

Member
gofreak said:
The Irish Times reckons the first weddings could be in September.

Also, a really great piece from David Norris today, running through some of the history:

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/remarkable-journey-from-criminal-to-equal-citizen-1.2224305
Click to expand...

Its good to see Norris back to form after his illness. As a Norris fanboy I felt sorry for him during the presidential election for all the muck that was flung his way.

He was on Pat Kenny as well this morning, in fine spirits.
 
P

Palette Swap

Member
Great job, Ireland.

Seeing the reactions to this, this is so fucking shameful for the French right and its moron voters, it's not even funny. I feel we're the only country that had months of protests against equal rights like that.
 
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