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Where does this nonsense that 343 hasn't been a successful developer for Microsoft come from?

SenjutsuSage

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Ghosts of Tsushima, a game many consider to be one of the best titles released by Playstation this generation, a massive success and huge step up in quality for developer Sucker Punch is fantastic work by a great studio.

People point to the sales of the game as a sign of its success. People consider Sea of Thieves a huge success for Microsoft. They point to the sales of Forza Horizon that it's a success for Microsoft, and Playground is doing an amazing job.

Ghosts of Tsushima sold just over 5 million copies since its launch in July.


Halo 4 had a large $220 opening, was the third best selling game of the year in the U.S. that year, and apparently sold over 5 million copies in the USA alone, and has apparently sold nearly 9 million copies overall. An example of what it did at launch. No shame in being beat by Call of Duty in sales. Halo 4 has sold nearly 10 million copies, near the latest God of War that crossed 10 million...


Halo 5, the game everybody says is this big failure, here is 343's Frank stating that it sold 5 million copies at 3 months.




Halo Master Chief Collection, not even including the Xbox releases, sold almost 2 million on Steam.


Any other studio with these accolades would not be described as a failure, or a "terrible" developer.

Last of us 2 sold like 4 million copies I think on release, and I think is being outsold by Ghosts of Tsushima.

How exactly is the criteria for success for every other major game out there, particularly major Sony first party exclusives, suddenly different when it comes to, by the numbers, easily Microsoft's top selling game studio that is doing equally successful numbers? How are they a trash or terrible developer when they keep putting out enough quality that people are buying the games in the many millions of numbers equal or better to many of Sony's biggest and best titles, and Halo 5 did it's 5 million+ on a significantly smaller install base compared to PS4. Does this fact not mean a thing? What do you think Halo 5 would have sold if it Xbox One had sold as much as Playstation 4 did? Surely quite a bit more than it did.

The outer worlds by Obsidian is considered a big success, and has sold over 2 million copies, and that's even while being a multi-platform title that released on PS4 and PC. How is 343 who accomplished this with Master Chief Collection just on Steam a failure of a studio?

Even the highly successful Forza Horizon 4 did over 2 million it's first week, and I believe by now has crossed 7 million or so? How is Playgrounds a success but 343 a failure? It makes no sense.


343 are being judged by a set of rules that are so strange because even with the complaints and the whining about the choices they make for the Halo titles they've put out, they keep putting up the big numbers regardless. And no, it isn't enough to just say "Oh, well, that's just cause it's Halo" They're putting up the numbers.

And for the people who will use player count as a sign, there's a crap ton of other things out there in the MP shooter arena for people to play than there ever was back when Halo was seen as the dominant console shooter by far. Maybe, just maybe, the Halo community is much more interested in the epic campaign, playing a some MP and then moving on to something new than people care to admit? Is it bad for Ghosts of Tsushima that many have started playing other things? What about the Last of Us II? What about God of War? Yes, I know Halo is a major MP franchise also, but I don't feel that does anything to diminish the success 343 has had with the franchise. People sometimes buy, enjoy and just move on to the next. And I stress again the increased competition in this space compared to any previous time. Halo MP going free to play I think is the right move and something which will have a pretty major impact.

Another overlooked factor because we can already play Halo on PC is that Halo Infinite will be the very first Halo game to ever launch on PC simultaneously with the Xbox console release.

Back to the point. By no common sense measure is 343 somehow Microsoft's worst developer or a developer that isn't getting the job done. Countless studios would trade places for their so called "abysmal" track record in a heart beat. Any notion 343 is among Microsoft's worst developers is utter bs. Their games are well optimized, amazingly well optimized, their games are beautiful. Say what you want about them, but their games are all beautiful, which some failed to ever admit until it was useful for trolling Halo Infinite's initial gameplay reveal, which admittedly needed to be so much better.

But remember one thing: that Halo Infinite people saw was never released, and still has nearly 7-9 more months left in development. What's the next argument? Resources that they have? Even with the resources they have their results have not at all been terrible or subpar. 343 is selling the same numbers that Sony's best games are, and they're doing it with a significantly smaller install base of consoles.

Rant over.
 
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Because the games suck.

I think the MCC was a mess and I don't give credit for taking years to fix it. It really was over-ambitious. I think people really just wanted Halo 2 MP. As for 4 and 5. I just find them mediocre. I'm not a huge Halo fan, but they sure did nothing to change that. They have really doubled down on lore that as a casual fan I sure don't give a fuck about. And honestly, I just think continuing with Chief instead of something new was lame and way too safe. I don't think the games have been that fresh. Halo 4 had all these new enemies and new weapons that felt like the same old stuff under new skins. Didn't really feel like a change. Halo 5 had that shitty boss battle and a story that felt like it had no balls or excitement. On the multiplayer front, I fell off because I just feel like they were chasing esports. Something I don't care about. The cards I thought were dumb. The levels didn't give me the epic CTF moments I wanted. In the end my problem with them can be summed up as that they seem to lack a real creative vision to do something unique with the series.

Also just in general with CoD 4, Halo really lost the multiplayer crown. Back in the day before, Halo was the premiere online FPS. It isn't anymore. I think combined with the fact that it had such a big ending, I feel the series has drifted away from the limelight.
 
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cdthree

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Halo is Xbox in most people's mind, or at least it use to be. It's nowhere near a marque name or draw and has faded in popular appeal. That's on 343. RDR or GTA are still massive draws after all these years unlike Halo.
 

SenjutsuSage

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Because the games suck.
Probably because their games aren't good and the community is nothing compared to what it was.

They have done a lot of damage to the Halo brand regardless of sales with their decisions.

None of what either of you two said are supported by the numbers. The commercial success of the titles do not agree with you. People have this rose colored lense of what the "community" was. I've never found Halo's MP impressive from the very start. I never saw what the hell people were all that amazed with, and I still don't to this day as a big Halo fan. I play Halo only for the campaigns and the story. I still can't get all that excited for Halo multiplayer. This may sound harsh, but maybe, just maybe, people are seeing that Halo MP was never really all that mindblowing from the start? Maybe with more shooters becoming more prominent on consoles where Halo isn't the sole big dog anymore people aren't experiencing the same draw that the rest of you are? No Halo title plays better than Halo 5. Even a non-interested Halo MP player like me can clearly see that the gameplay in Halo 5 murders the previous titles. Is it really just sprint that has everybody mad? The clambering? Nah. People like the quick kills of COD and the instant reflex desert eagle headshots of Counter-Strike at its peak. Where have those bad ass 3 vs 1 situations gone?

I was a PC CS 1.5/1.6 player, and I felt Halo MP was blah. I really don't think whether it was in terms of skill, just fun to watch, that any of that was ever really more exciting than watching two amazing teams go at it in HLTV (btw does anything on consoles match watching a live match via HLTV yet????) in a big lan event in cs 1.5/1.6 back in the old CPL, ESWC days. Counter-Strike 1.5/1.6 matches have always looked like they were more interesting and packed more skill, excitement than Halo ever did, but that's just me.

If the games suck then why are people buying them? They clearly do not suck even if you don't like them. And they are selling these numbers with significantly smaller install bases compared to its competition. There's a lot more competition now in the shooter scene. If Halo is doing 5 million+ on Xbox One consoles alone, what do you think it would do as a multi-platform release that goes to Xbox and Playstation? 343 is a successful developer by any credible measurement. Please don't tell me metacritic is credible because it isn't.
 

SenjutsuSage

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Halo was arguably the biggest videogame IP in the world around the time of 3. Anything short of GTA and CoD numbers is going to be considered a failure by many.

But less than GTA or COD numbers isn't failure... that's the point I'm getting at. GTA and COD are both multi-platform. What if Halo was? Look at what it's doing on xbox consoles alone with a far smaller install base. The franchise would eclipse 5 million + every single time. For example, don't Playstation console sales outpace Xbox sales lately? Halo is easily a 10-15 million franchise as a true multi-platform release.
 

SenjutsuSage

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Halo was arguably the biggest videogame IP in the world around the time of 3. Anything short of GTA and CoD numbers is going to be considered a failure by many.

The quality bar has been risen. Even with Halo's popularity, there's just too much going on in gaming for Halo to still command that kind of pull in a very crowded genre.
 
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SenjutsuSage

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God of War is probably at 20+ mil now you are posting old numbers

and comparing MS's biggest ip to a new ip like Ghost of Tsushima is enough to answer your question


Halo under 343 has done among the best numbers in the industry outside of titles not named Call of Duty, Halo, and God of War in its recent release has skyrocketed up there. Spider-Man we know is huge. So no matter what you really compare it to, their games are still moving highly profitable numbers that any studio or big publisher would be pleased with.
 
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Chukhopops

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You’re entirely right OP, Halo 5 in particular is a fantastic game with some of the best multiplayer of the series.

I think it was just impossible to replicate the hype of Halo 3, it was just a perfect storm and one of those « you had to be there » moments and 343 was just given an impossible task. Plus for many there’s a nostalgia factor, they were teenagers with plenty of time, like Goldeneye can be for older people like me.
 

SenjutsuSage

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Never said they were, but you're asking a question about something ill-defined. You're really asking why the series has the perception it does, which is not going to be answered solely by the numbers.

Even so, we'll have different opinions on the series, but this is probably more about 343 as a studio than Halo itself, but yea 343 is Halo. 343 as a game studio has been highly successful by every other metric we use to call other studios and games successful. Their titles are well optimized, they look fantastic, they play great... I don't see a major issue. They're well supported.

Can less than Call of Duty and GTA really be considered failure?
 

SenjutsuSage

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How long did it take for them to get the old halos working. They are good but no bungie.

That was a crazy engineering effort. You're not giving them NEARLY enough credit for pulling that off. That shit was impressive. It worked flawless for me since day one, but then I wasn't trying to play MP. I was playing just campaigns, and naturally I started with Halo 4 campaign, my favorite of the series.
 
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Graciaus

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None of what either of you two said are supported by the numbers. The commercial success of the titles do not agree with you. People have this rose colored lense of what the "community" was. I've never found Halo's MP impressive from the very start. I never saw what the hell people were all that amazed with, and I still don't to this day as a big Halo fan. I play Halo only for the campaigns and the story. I still can't get all that excited for Halo multiplayer. This may sound harsh, but maybe, just maybe, people are seeing that Halo MP was never really all that mindblowing from the start? Maybe with more shooters becoming more prominent on consoles where Halo isn't the sole big dog anymore people aren't experiencing the same draw that the rest of you are? No Halo title plays better than Halo 5. Even a non-interested Halo MP player like me can clearly see that the gameplay in Halo 5 murders the previous titles. Is it really just sprint that has everybody mad? The clambering? Nah. People like the quick kills of COD and the instant reflex desert eagle headshots of Counter-Strike at its peak. Where have those bad ass 3 vs 1 situations gone?
What? Halo dominated the charts for literally years before 343. Your opinion of the multi isn't really important. The population numbers on 4 were cut in half a month after it came out and never recovered. Halo 5 didn't do any better.
 

ZehDon

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What an OP :messenger_grinning_sweat:

Under Bungie, Halo was a titan of the Industry, set new standards and created new trends that others followed. From online match making to player made content, Bungie pioneered the AAA shooter as we understand it with Halo. Hell, to this day, Halo is Xbox, purely on the strength of Bungie's games.
Under 343i, Microsoft handed them some of the biggest budgets around, gave them the reigns of one of the biggest franchises in the history of the medium, and has let them take an entire decade to get it right. 343i are currently standing at two failures and the worst AAA reveal in the history of video games.

Halo 4 and Halo 5 sold decent numbers because of the Halo logo on the box, not because 343i delivered a game that perpetuated those sales on the quality of their product. Halo 5 was so badly received that Halo - Microsoft's tent-pole franchise - went into hibernation for 6 years so they could come out strong. When they crawled out of their hole, 343i's Halo Infinite reveal was so universally reviled that Microsoft decided launching their next-gen console without a fucking game was preferable to launching alongside Halo Infinite. I'm not convinced 343i should even be called a AAA developer at this point.

Have they generated a profit? Sure.
Have they been successful with Halo? Nothing short of God himself could convince me they have been. 343i are an embarrassment.
 

Kholinar

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Because the games stink more than skunk refuse. The Pokemon games are guaranteed commercial successes, but they are clearly lackluster and soulless cash grab titles pumped out to fill the yearly quota. Halo is a franchise carried purely by its IP; it doesn't matter what developer is at the helm because the games will still sell well regardless. Furthermore, Halo is, like, one of three tentpole titles for Xbox. PlayStation has numerous. I wouldn't be surprised if Xbox players bought it because it's literally the only palatable exclusive on display. Meanwhile, Sony has Spider-Man, TLOU, GoW, Death Stranding, etc.

To boil it down, if you want to consider 343 a successful developer, then consider Game Freak one too. Just don't include quality in as one of your metrics of success.
 
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Reallink

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But less than GTA or COD numbers isn't failure... that's the point I'm getting at. GTA and COD are both multi-platform. What if Halo was? Look at what it's doing on xbox consoles alone with a far smaller install base. The franchise would eclipse 5 million + every single time. For example, don't Playstation console sales outpace Xbox sales lately? Halo is easily a 10-15 million franchise as a true multi-platform release.

I think the modern CoD's move around 30+ million units (astonishing considering they're annual), while GTAV is like 150 million. Even as a 3-5 year production a multiplatform 343i Halo wouldn't even be in the same stratosphere as those, where by all accounts it should be. Those series were Halo 3's titan class competitors by the way. Which one is floundering? That fact compounded with the medicore quality of the recent titles is why they're widely consider a failure.
 
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SenjutsuSage

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Sucker Punch wasn't gifted Sony's most popular IP that would sell regardless of the quality of the effort.

343 has been here a while now. Their games are still selling big numbers. It's more than just the Halo name at this point. People like what they're doing. 343 are good at what they do. Halo gameplay has NEVER been better, so these guys are no pack of bums like they're so constantly portrayed. The games are beautiful, they're very well optimized, fantastic production value that's a step up for the series. They've improved sound design in ways that go largely underappreciated. I'm stunned they take so much disrespect honestly, but I guess it comes with the territory.
 
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SenjutsuSage

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I think the modern CoD's move around 30+ million units (astonishing considering they're annual), while GTAV is like 150 million. Even as a 3-5 year production a multiplatform 343i Halo wouldn't even be in the same stratosphere as those, where by all accounts it should be.

How much better do COD titles sell on Playstation? Do you have an idea? Halo 5 did 5 million+ on Xbox One with a way smaller install base. It isn't very difficult to see where the series would be on an even bigger install base. Right out the gate, it being free to play for MP will likely be huge, combined with Game Pass's increased popularity while also releasing for PC.

I think COD and GTA managed to do so great because they evolved with the times whereas 343 was initially forced to stick to Bungie's formula, evolving in important ways, but not nearly as much as I know they would have not burdened by the Halo hype. They first had to not betray the franchise, but now I think they're free to do what they want. With Infinite they finally have the freedom to do their own true take on Halo, and seems we may get the biggest divergence from the original Halo titles yet. It's still familiar, but it looks like we are getting the most ambitious Halo ever.
 

NinjaBoiX

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I thought Halo 4 was the best game in the series, and by far the most technically accomplished. I’ve not played 5 though.

Outside of some interesting outdoor areas in the first three, there sure was a whole bunch of dull copy and paste corridors in most of the other levels.

That’s what ultimately keeps me from finding Halo such a big deal like some others do; fuck me it has some boring ass recycled level design.
 

SenjutsuSage

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What an OP :messenger_grinning_sweat:

Under Bungie, Halo was a titan of the Industry, set new standards and created new trends that others followed. From online match making to player made content, Bungie pioneered the AAA shooter as we understand it with Halo. Hell, to this day, Halo is Xbox, purely on the strength of Bungie's games.
Under 343i, Microsoft handed them some of the biggest budgets around, gave them the reigns of one of the biggest franchises in the history of the medium, and has let them take an entire decade to get it right. 343i are currently standing at two failures and the worst AAA reveal in the history of video games.

Halo 4 and Halo 5 sold decent numbers because of the Halo logo on the box, not because 343i delivered a game that perpetuated those sales on the quality of their product. Halo 5 was so badly received that Halo - Microsoft's tent-pole franchise - went into hibernation for 6 years so they could come out strong. When they crawled out of their hole, 343i's Halo Infinite reveal was so universally reviled that Microsoft decided launching their next-gen console without a fucking game was preferable to launching alongside Halo Infinite. I'm not convinced 343i should even be called a AAA developer at this point.

Have they generated a profit? Sure.
Have they been successful with Halo? Nothing short of God himself could convince me they have been. 343i are an embarrassment.

It was a titan to a much smaller games industry with far less competition. I still think Halo is every bit as big, but other titles have caught up and also have that ability to shock and awe. I don't think 343 has made a bad game yet, and I still stand by my belief that Halo 4's campaign is the best damn one in the franchise. It was incredible.

Halo 3 gets a lot of hype, but I personally find it the worst in the franchise. The combat and gameplay felt bad. That opening forest level, I've never felt such horrible input lag in my life in a shooter. I almost stopped then and there. The story just never delivered on its massive potential. For such a big climactic finale, I found myself stunned when I was sitting there playing COD 4 that same year and was like "This shit destroys Halo 3... it isn't even close"

Halo's armor was torn down the moment COD 4 released and was the far better game imo. I'm not speaking of MP either, though I know how popular that was. I thought COD 4's campaign smoked Halo 3's campaign in every way that mattered. Sure, it's not the sandbox of options that Halo 3 was, but COD 4 for damn sure did a better job of making me believe much more in the battlefield and scenarios they had crafted. That nuke scene is still mindblowing to me. That opening execution scene.. jesus.
 

SenjutsuSage

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I thought Halo 4 was the best game in the series, and by far the most technically accomplished. I’ve not played 5 though.

Outside of some interesting outdoor areas in the first three, there sure was a whole bunch of dull copy and paste corridors in most of the other levels.

That’s what ultimately keeps me from finding Halo such a big deal like some others do; fuck me it has some boring ass recycled level design.

I totally agree with this.

And, yes, I hated that level design in the previous games. I really never felt they were quite as unbelievable as people had made them out to seem. Sure, they were good, but shit, there's not a single Halo game till Halo 4 that made me feel like Halo was ever in the same league as the Metal Gear franchise. Metal Gear Solid on the PS1 is one of my personal all-time greats. I don't know what it sold, but I never felt Halo as a franchise was in that same league or quality till Halo 4.

And before you guys behead me, no I do not think Halo 4 is better than MGS. MGS is one of the all-time greatest videogames ever made. It's a game I played so many times over and over (just to keep doing it perfect with no mistakes because it felt that damn good) that my memory of that game is just nuts, and it's one of the primary reasons I hope rumors of Bluepoint making a remake of that for PS5 is true. I would literally lose my fucking mind.
 
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I thought Halo 4 was the best game in the series, and by far the most technically accomplished. I’ve not played 5 though.

Outside of some interesting outdoor areas in the first three, there sure was a whole bunch of dull copy and paste corridors in most of the other levels.

That’s what ultimately keeps me from finding Halo such a big deal like some others do; fuck me it has some boring ass recycled level design.
That's literally Halo 4's entire campaign...how you gonna say the most linear and corridor Halo is the best and then complain about the old Halos having corridors...

The reason Halo 4 looks so good compared to the older Halos is because they cut back in other aspects like open levels and enemy AI.
 

SenjutsuSage

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That's literally Halo 4's entire campaign...how you gonna say the most linear and corridor Halo is the best and then complain about the old Halos having corridors...

The reason Halo 4 looks so good compared to the older Halos is because they cut back in other aspects like open levels and enemy AI.

Halo 4's maps were more BELIEVABLE. I actually believed I was in them. That Halo 3 "believe" ad was perfect because in Halo 3 I literally felt like a damn toy inside of a kids sandbox the whole time, and not in a good way. When I saw that opening ship level in Halo 4, I actual look around at stuff and can genuinely imagine a whole crew being on this ship. I see things that make me believe the illusion that this ship once served a real purpose. Halo 4, despite being more linear, made more effective use of the space it did provide than I thought Halo 3 ever did. That forest location was fantastic and so moody, so well done. Too much space when much of the space has nothing interesting or worthwhile in it is more bad than a more expertly crafted play space. I thought the mission and level designs in Halo 4 were excellent, and all fit, and I believed them all.

Games are about pulling people into the illusion. Halo 4 does that fantastically, and it's one of the reasons it's the best in the franchise for me.

And then when 343 prioritized 60fps at the expense of better graphics, people got mad about that too. They can't win. I don't hear many complaints about COD being linear when it looks as amazing as it does. Halo will never become that linear, but more tightly crafted gameplay scenarios are by no means a bad thing. Mass Effect 2 has many areas like that, it never took away from the feeling of the game. I think Bungie lost sight of that on 360 and simply gave us these massive play spaces just because they could, but they were largely useless and uninteresting.

Halo Infinite seems as if they'll try to do a much better job of making the world around us feel alive.
 
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Goro Majima

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Call of Duty stole the cultural zeitgeist away from Halo who then had it stolen in turn by Fortnite. The perception of the decline of Halo could be easily explained by that alone if that really was the issue.

But I’m not sure if there was anything Halo could have done to outdo Call of Duty and it really seems like people feel their efforts weren’t that great anyway. Make no mistake, Bungie could have made every single game and I sincerely doubt it would have ever returned to its zenith. But maybe the fans would have liked it better?
 

yurinka

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How do their Halo games compare to the Bungie ones in terms of Metacritic and sales? Is Halo as relevant as it was back in the Bungie days?
Last of us 2 sold like 4 million copies I think on release, and I think is being outsold by Ghosts of Tsushima.
It sold over 4 million copies on its first weekend only. Ghost of Tsushima needed several months to achieve 5 million. At the end of 2020, TLOU2 had sold more units than GoT and in Europe (the biggest PlayStation market) TLOU2 continues selling more than GoT. GoT isn't outselling and won't outsell TLOU2, but outsold Horizon as the best launch of a PS4 exclusive new IP.

We don't know how many players bought Sea of Thieves or the amount of revenue it generated, so we don't know if it's a success or not. We only know 15 million players played (not bought) it.

Regarding Call of Duty, as I remember in the top 20 best selling games of the decade there were 10 CoD games. I assume they were all the main ones relesed these 10 years.
 
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Call of Duty stole the cultural zeitgeist away from Halo who then had it stolen in turn by Fortnite. The perception of the decline of Halo could be easily explained by that alone if that really was the issue.

But I’m not sure if there was anything Halo could have done to outdo Call of Duty and it really seems like people feel their efforts weren’t that great anyway. Make no mistake, Bungie could have made every single game and I sincerely doubt it would have ever returned to its zenith. But maybe the fans would have liked it better?
Imagine destiny was halo 4 with a well thought out story, what could have happened haha
 

Northeastmonk

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I think it’s the same as with BioWare, The Coalition, and even Ubisoft’s various studios. People leave and it makes everyone think their games are a mess. They’re all subject to having a bad game. Even the greatest game franchises around have bad games. I think the biggest thing is it’s trying to make a come back after being king of the hill already. I use to like Halo a lot. I had all the games, I went to tournaments, and I played the multiplayer with a bunch of friends. That all sorta sizzled out after Halo 3. I played Reach, 4 and 5 alone. I even played Halo Wars without having a single friend to discuss or play Halo with. Bungie goes on and makes Destiny and Halo is basically relying on the MCC to keep it alive. Not a lot of people talk about how Halo 5 ended. I still remember what happen and it’s been since the year the game came out.

I think 343 has had bad publicity lately. The Coalition had key people leave. It’s a franchise that made buckets of money. They’re basically getting scrutinized and the games industry is focused on whatever’s next. The AAA scene doesn’t always like to rehash a game unless it has something significantly different about it. Call of Duty has a title every year. Gears of War has just about gone the way of Halo. It leads for a long period of time until there’s not a familiar breath of life on the development team. Current gamers and fans either play whatever is out or they play the same game.

I also think Xbox hasn’t really hit a home run yet. They’re still sorta relying on their legacy and newer experiences. It’s not like 343 is bad or Xbox is bad. None of that is true. It’s just people move on and the charm of it all really hasn’t kicked off for the 4th or 5th time in a row. That’s at least how I see it.
 
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NinjaBoiX

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That's literally Halo 4's entire campaign...how you gonna say the most linear and corridor Halo is the best and then complain about the old Halos having corridors...

The reason Halo 4 looks so good compared to the older Halos is because they cut back in other aspects like open levels and enemy AI.
It wasn’t so much the linear nature, I don’t really mind that. It was just how dull and samey a lot of the environments were in the original trilogy.

It was so easy to get lost and turned around as the levels seemed to be constructed of like 20-30 assets copy and pasted in slightly different configurations.
 

SenjutsuSage

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Imagine destiny was halo 4 with a well thought out story, what could have happened haha

Woulda been trouble. But Destiny was far different from what I expected. I still think Halo, due to its history and universe would still be a big deal, and that's what I think keeps Halo a big deal. People underestimate the love people still have for that universe, and 343 is heading down a story path a lot of people find really interesting. They want to see it through.
 
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Halo 4's maps were more BELIEVABLE. I actually believed I was in them. That Halo 3 "believe" ad was perfect because in Halo 3 I literally felt like a damn toy inside of a kids sandbox the whole time, and not in a good way. When I saw that opening ship level in Halo 4, I actual look around at stuff and can genuinely imagine a whole crew being on this ship. I see things that make me believe the illusion that this ship once served a real purpose. Halo 4, despite being more linear, made more effective use of the space it did provide than I thought Halo 3 ever did. That forest location was fantastic and so moody, so well done. Too much space when much of the space has nothing interesting or worthwhile in it is more bad than a more expertly crafted play space. I thought the mission and level designs in Halo 4 were excellent, and all fit, and I believed them all.

Games are about pulling people into the illusion. Halo 4 does that fantastically, and it's one of the reasons it's the best in the franchise for me.
A famous line from Bungie "this space needs to be fun before its pretty." Sure it made you feel like a forest was moody or whatever but who cares when the gameplay is so much worse than the older games?

Those linear levels completely destroyed vehicle combat too btw.
 

Sakura

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Halo 3 sold over 8 million copies in 3 months. Halo 5, as you mentioned, was at 5 million.
You're trying to compare it to a new IP with no name value, while entirely ignoring the decline in popularity and relevance since switching over to 343.
No Halo game from 343 has reached the heights of the Halo games from Bungie. That's why people say they haven't been a great developer.
 

SenjutsuSage

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Call of Duty stole the cultural zeitgeist away from Halo who then had it stolen in turn by Fortnite. The perception of the decline of Halo could be easily explained by that alone if that really was the issue.

But I’m not sure if there was anything Halo could have done to outdo Call of Duty and it really seems like people feel their efforts weren’t that great anyway. Make no mistake, Bungie could have made every single game and I sincerely doubt it would have ever returned to its zenith. But maybe the fans would have liked it better?

I stress this. I played Halo 3, enjoyed it, and then I played COD 4, and I was PISSED at what I played in Halo 3. I was like "HOW IS A MILITARY SHOOTER WAY MORE EPIC THAN A BAD ASS SPACE EPIC WITH THE LORE AND UNIVERSE OF HALO!? WHY DIDN'T THEY TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THIS MORE? WHY DIDN'T THEY MAKE SOME STUFF AS INTERESTING AS THE BOOKS. WHAT'S WITH THAT SHITTY ANIMATION WHEN WE'RE SEEING STUFF LIKE WE ARE IN COD 4?"

I felt more from a random scientist having her life's work ended and then her life later ended in Halo 4 than I did from Sgt. Johnson or Miranda Keyes' death in Halo 3? How!? Halo 3 felt as emotionally dead as Lord Hood's face.
 
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SenjutsuSage

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A famous line from Bungie "this space needs to be fun before its pretty." Sure it made you feel like a forest was moody or whatever but who cares when the gameplay is so much worse than the older games?

Those linear levels completely destroyed vehicle combat too btw.

I enjoyed that mech level in Halo 4 wayyyyy more than I ever did a vehicle level in any Halo prior to that. That shit felt so intense. The Mantis!
 
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