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Where does this nonsense that 343 hasn't been a successful developer for Microsoft come from?

Apr 10, 2007
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Highly critically acclaimed new IP in a fairly underserved genre/theme (feudal Japanese samurai/assassin) has entirely unexpected breakout runaway success.

vs

Critically derided iteration of what was previously a system-seller stalwart IP, released a generation prior (sales long tail over 2 gens now, as well as expanding to PC) sells well carried off the back of the franchise heritage but sets the pivotal decline of the franchise popularity (and sales - how well did Halo 5 do again?) into motion.

Silly thread.
 
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PontiusFeeb

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Sep 12, 2018
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The original post says that Halo 4 had a $220 opening. That's between 3 and 4 copies sold. Might that number be off by a factor of a million or so?

343 screwed up the Xbox Series launch by being so late and incompetent with Infinite. That's their biggest failure so far.
 

SLB1904

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Oct 24, 2017
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Ghosts of Tsushima, a game many consider to be one of the best titles released by Playstation this generation, a massive success and huge step up in quality for developer Sucker Punch is fantastic work by a great studio.

People point to the sales of the game as a sign of its success. People consider Sea of Thieves a huge success for Microsoft. They point to the sales of Forza Horizon that it's a success for Microsoft, and Playground is doing an amazing job.

Ghosts of Tsushima sold just over 5 million copies since its launch in July.


Halo 4 had a large $220 opening, was the third best selling game of the year in the U.S. that year, and apparently sold over 5 million copies in the USA alone, and has apparently sold nearly 9 million copies overall. An example of what it did at launch. No shame in being beat by Call of Duty in sales. Halo 4 has sold nearly 10 million copies, near the latest God of War that crossed 10 million...


Halo 5, the game everybody says is this big failure, here is 343's Frank stating that it sold 5 million copies at 3 months.




Halo Master Chief Collection, not even including the Xbox releases, sold almost 2 million on Steam.


Any other studio with these accolades would not be described as a failure, or a "terrible" developer.

Last of us 2 sold like 4 million copies I think on release, and I think is being outsold by Ghosts of Tsushima.

How exactly is the criteria for success for every other major game out there, particularly major Sony first party exclusives, suddenly different when it comes to, by the numbers, easily Microsoft's top selling game studio that is doing equally successful numbers? How are they a trash or terrible developer when they keep putting out enough quality that people are buying the games in the many millions of numbers equal or better to many of Sony's biggest and best titles, and Halo 5 did it's 5 million+ on a significantly smaller install base compared to PS4. Does this fact not mean a thing? What do you think Halo 5 would have sold if it Xbox One had sold as much as Playstation 4 did? Surely quite a bit more than it did.

The outer worlds by Obsidian is considered a big success, and has sold over 2 million copies, and that's even while being a multi-platform title that released on PS4 and PC. How is 343 who accomplished this with Master Chief Collection just on Steam a failure of a studio?

Even the highly successful Forza Horizon 4 did over 2 million it's first week, and I believe by now has crossed 7 million or so? How is Playgrounds a success but 343 a failure? It makes no sense.


343 are being judged by a set of rules that are so strange because even with the complaints and the whining about the choices they make for the Halo titles they've put out, they keep putting up the big numbers regardless. And no, it isn't enough to just say "Oh, well, that's just cause it's Halo" They're putting up the numbers.

And for the people who will use player count as a sign, there's a crap ton of other things out there in the MP shooter arena for people to play than there ever was back when Halo was seen as the dominant console shooter by far. Maybe, just maybe, the Halo community is much more interested in the epic campaign, playing a some MP and then moving on to something new than people care to admit? Is it bad for Ghosts of Tsushima that many have started playing other things? What about the Last of Us II? What about God of War? Yes, I know Halo is a major MP franchise also, but I don't feel that does anything to diminish the success 343 has had with the franchise. People sometimes buy, enjoy and just move on to the next. And I stress again the increased competition in this space compared to any previous time. Halo MP going free to play I think is the right move and something which will have a pretty major impact.

Another overlooked factor because we can already play Halo on PC is that Halo Infinite will be the very first Halo game to ever launch on PC simultaneously with the Xbox console release.

Back to the point. By no common sense measure is 343 somehow Microsoft's worst developer or a developer that isn't getting the job done. Countless studios would trade places for their so called "abysmal" track record in a heart beat. Any notion 343 is among Microsoft's worst developers is utter bs. Their games are well optimized, amazingly well optimized, their games are beautiful. Say what you want about them, but their games are all beautiful, which some failed to ever admit until it was useful for trolling Halo Infinite's initial gameplay reveal, which admittedly needed to be so much better.

But remember one thing: that Halo Infinite people saw was never released, and still has nearly 7-9 more months left in development. What's the next argument? Resources that they have? Even with the resources they have their results have not at all been terrible or subpar. 343 is selling the same numbers that Sony's best games are, and they're doing it with a significantly smaller install base of consoles.

Rant over.
You trippin bruh.
 

RevenantX

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Mar 15, 2018
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You mean financial success achieved thanks to legacy of prior Halo games developed by Bungie?
Gears games were selling big when Epic were making them but when Coliation took over sales drop drastically even though games were not bad, but that didn't happen incase of 343 Halo games, sales were less compared to Halo 3 but 343 games outsold Bungie made Reach and ODST.
 

billyxci

13 year old console warrior. Put me on ignore.
Aug 3, 2014
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i think the 343 games are the best Halo games. yup not even kidding. 1-3 were fun but i don't see the fuss about them. i liked the direction the story was going in 4 + 5. also the gameplay is far superior to anything Bungie done.

i feel it's just halo fans with rose tinted glasses who want to bring back the good old days. let's be honest...no matter what 343 do then these fans will never be happy. Infinite could turn out to be a fantastic successful game but they'll still shit on it.
 

RevenantX

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The original post says that Halo 4 had a $220 opening. That's between 3 and 4 copies sold. Might that number be off by a factor of a million or so?

343 screwed up the Xbox Series launch by being so late and incompetent with Infinite. That's their biggest failure so far.
Well lets not forget Pandemic affected development for lot of games. We don't know what exactly happened, so lets not become arm chair analyst and start shitting without knowing actual reason for delay. Not all studios can work effectively from home.

Last of us 2 and Uncharted 4 both were delayed multiple times by an year and there was no pandemic affecting development
 

SLB1904

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Oct 24, 2017
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The original post says that Halo 4 had a $220 opening. That's between 3 and 4 copies sold. Might that number be off by a factor of a million or so?

343 screwed up the Xbox Series launch by being so late and incompetent with Infinite. That's their biggest failure so far.
That number includes hardware. But we know he conveniently left that out.
Gow is at 20 millions copies. My dude is comparing sony juggernaut with fucking halo. Tlous 2 sold 4mil in 2 days and over 7millions players a month later. Uncharted 4 that was to be outsold by halo 5 Ltd in us alone. Destroyed halo.

Also halo infinite looks like shit. It will be another disaster. Shit was supposed to release last November with no release date on sight. And let's not talk about creative director bailing half way
 

YeulEmeralda

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Probably because their games aren't good and the community is nothing compared to what it was.

They have done a lot of damage to the Halo brand regardless of sales with their decisions.
Yeah Halo was a real cultural phenomenon. The Zelda of the Xbox brand.
 

Moonjt9

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This is such a perfect reply to this thread, that it should be framed and put up on the 343i office wall.

What an OP :messenger_grinning_sweat:

Under Bungie, Halo was a titan of the Industry, set new standards and created new trends that others followed. From online match making to player made content, Bungie pioneered the AAA shooter as we understand it with Halo. Hell, to this day, Halo is Xbox, purely on the strength of Bungie's games.
Under 343i, Microsoft handed them some of the biggest budgets around, gave them the reigns of one of the biggest franchises in the history of the medium, and has let them take an entire decade to get it right. 343i are currently standing at two failures and the worst AAA reveal in the history of video games.

Halo 4 and Halo 5 sold decent numbers because of the Halo logo on the box, not because 343i delivered a game that perpetuated those sales on the quality of their product. Halo 5 was so badly received that Halo - Microsoft's tent-pole franchise - went into hibernation for 6 years so they could come out strong. When they crawled out of their hole, 343i's Halo Infinite reveal was so universally reviled that Microsoft decided launching their next-gen console without a fucking game was preferable to launching alongside Halo Infinite. I'm not convinced 343i should even be called a AAA developer at this point.

Have they generated a profit? Sure.
Have they been successful with Halo? Nothing short of God himself could convince me they have been. 343i are an embarrassment.
 

Ar¢tos

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Since we are making silly comparisons between completely unrelated things (Halo sales vs quality vs.... Sony 1st party games?!?) , I think Botticelli art is more popular than caterpillars.
 
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GaviotaGrande

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Gears games were selling big when Epic were making them but when Coliation took over sales drop drastically even though games were not bad, but that didn't happen incase of 343 Halo games, sales were less compared to Halo 3 but 343 games outsold Bungie made Reach and ODST.
Spinoff game sold less than a main entry? Imagine my shock.
 
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Panajev2001a

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What an OP :messenger_grinning_sweat:

Under Bungie, Halo was a titan of the Industry, set new standards and created new trends that others followed. From online match making to player made content, Bungie pioneered the AAA shooter as we understand it with Halo. Hell, to this day, Halo is Xbox, purely on the strength of Bungie's games.
Under 343i, Microsoft handed them some of the biggest budgets around, gave them the reigns of one of the biggest franchises in the history of the medium, and has let them take an entire decade to get it right. 343i are currently standing at two failures and the worst AAA reveal in the history of video games.

Halo 4 and Halo 5 sold decent numbers because of the Halo logo on the box, not because 343i delivered a game that perpetuated those sales on the quality of their product. Halo 5 was so badly received that Halo - Microsoft's tent-pole franchise - went into hibernation for 6 years so they could come out strong. When they crawled out of their hole, 343i's Halo Infinite reveal was so universally reviled that Microsoft decided launching their next-gen console without a fucking game was preferable to launching alongside Halo Infinite. I'm not convinced 343i should even be called a AAA developer at this point.

Have they generated a profit? Sure.
Have they been successful with Halo? Nothing short of God himself could convince me they have been. 343i are an embarrassment.
This kind of says it all.
 

Yoboman

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Halo has gone from a mass market phenomenon to just being one of the pack. That doesn’t mean it can’t still sell well, but it doesn’t have the importance it used to

Its a bit like Final Fantasy, which used to be massive land mark games. But as the quality dropped, so did the franchise importance and sales.

And you blame Xbox One sales for Halo sales now being lower. I’d counter that a big reason Xbox One sales were lower and why it never regained momentum after launch is because Halo stopped being as good and important as it was (Gears also suffering that fate didn’t help)
 

mejin

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GoT is a new ip coming from a solid dev. It was their biggest game.

SP took step by step to be a better dev.

That's not the case for 343.
 
Oct 16, 2017
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And you blame Xbox One sales for Halo sales now being lower. I’d counter that a big reason Xbox One sales were lower and why it never regained momentum after launch is because Halo stopped being as good and important as it was (Gears also suffering that fate didn’t help)
This.
Xbox consoles don't sell games; games sell Xbox Consoles. The console is not the reason why the game is bad.
The most extreme example is the wiiU; a console that was bad, but the games are still good enough to be ported to Switch and sold again. The game needs to be good to begin with, you can't blame the hardware.
 

SkylineRKR

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I played all Halo's on GP, well from 3 onwards to be exact. Its because 4 and 5 are fucking turds.

Halo 3 remaster, easily 9/10. Loved it. The scale, the set pieces, the OST...

ODST 9.5/10 fucking masterpiece with a great score and eerie atmosphere.
Reach 8.5/10 very good and extremely good skyboxes.

Halo 4? The script stopped working in that shit level on top of the massive tank. Most levels were corridors, boring and repetitive. Fuck those new enemies.
Halo 5? Somehow worse than 4. Even more corridors and even worse storyline.

I would rate them a 6 and 5 at best. They're just not good and I largely forgot about them already.
 

Thirty7ven

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Aside from the copious amount of subjective and data starved claims in the OP... saying 343 is any sort of success story just because Halo sells is hilarious.

It’s fucking Halo mate. Thread is silly af
 
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SkylineRKR

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Aside from the copious amount of subjective and data starved claims in the OP... saying 343 is any sort of success story just because Halo sells is hilarious.

It’s fucking Halo mate. Thread is silly af

Yeah its like Sony is handing out Uncharted 5 to another developer, and that game manages to hit 9 million copies sold. And then to claim that studio is a success story. Its par for the course for that IP, really.
 
Jun 1, 2016
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I don't like Halo and infinite is the first one I'm a bit interested in. I find this op to be fine since I don't like most 1st party ips from Sony or ms. Sales is a fine metric of good. Have a good day.
 

Esppiral

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Halo 5 is one of the worst games I've played this past generation, I just finished because I paid for it, so they better improve on the next one....
 
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Iced Arcade

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At this point, it doesn't make sense to gauge a games success on units sold. On Xbox at least due to gamepass.

Halo 5's greatest mistake was forcing people to play as spartan locke... No one wants to buy a Mario game to play as toad
 
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Razvedka

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Probably because their games aren't good and the community is nothing compared to what it was.

They have done a lot of damage to the Halo brand regardless of sales with their decisions.
Basically this. A super popular brand can release less than great, or even bad, games and still be a 'huge commercial success' because of pre-existing momentum. I cannot speak for anyone but myself, but I can tell you after the MCC fiasco and Halo 4 I didn't even bother playing Halo 5. First time in my life since I was 11 where I didn't make sure to buy the next Halo title. It doesn't matter to me anymore, the series is effectively dead. Sure, MCC became great after years (and broken promises). It launched as a complete mess.

Bungie wasn't perfect, and I appreciated the emphasis on story and human drama in Halo 4 relative to prior installments- but that's basically it. They retconned alot of major story points that I was onboard with since before puberty, like the humans being the Forerunner. Now that was scrapped in place of Humans being a separate, albeit ancient race, that existed alongside and antagonistically to the Forerunner and were 'punished' for going to war with them. But beyond all that, their games just weren't as fun. It lost the magic. Their stuff is like the new SW trilogy vs the originals or, hell, even the prequels by Lucas. Kind of lifeless and hollow.

To circle back to my original point: Rian Johnsen, Kathleen Kennedy and AJ Abrams turned out steaming crap and no amount of Disney marketing dollars and leaning on reviewers could save them from the ultimate conclusion that long term damage was done to the brand. Same with 343 and Halo.
 
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Iced Arcade

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And fighting Prometheans is as exciting as mayo sandwiches.

seriously like Gears 5 fighting DBs, any game where you are constantly fighting robots gets dry and lifeless.
 
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Reindeer

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Thread about 343 being awesome by one of the most hardcore Xbox cheerleaders, why am I not surprised. I mean even the likes of Dealer and Colt admit that 343 have been bad.
 
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OrtizTwelve

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Ghosts of Tsushima, a game many consider to be one of the best titles released by Playstation this generation, a massive success and huge step up in quality for developer Sucker Punch is fantastic work by a great studio.

People point to the sales of the game as a sign of its success. People consider Sea of Thieves a huge success for Microsoft. They point to the sales of Forza Horizon that it's a success for Microsoft, and Playground is doing an amazing job.

Ghosts of Tsushima sold just over 5 million copies since its launch in July.


Halo 4 had a large $220 opening, was the third best selling game of the year in the U.S. that year, and apparently sold over 5 million copies in the USA alone, and has apparently sold nearly 9 million copies overall. An example of what it did at launch. No shame in being beat by Call of Duty in sales. Halo 4 has sold nearly 10 million copies, near the latest God of War that crossed 10 million...


Halo 5, the game everybody says is this big failure, here is 343's Frank stating that it sold 5 million copies at 3 months.




Halo Master Chief Collection, not even including the Xbox releases, sold almost 2 million on Steam.


Any other studio with these accolades would not be described as a failure, or a "terrible" developer.

Last of us 2 sold like 4 million copies I think on release, and I think is being outsold by Ghosts of Tsushima.

How exactly is the criteria for success for every other major game out there, particularly major Sony first party exclusives, suddenly different when it comes to, by the numbers, easily Microsoft's top selling game studio that is doing equally successful numbers? How are they a trash or terrible developer when they keep putting out enough quality that people are buying the games in the many millions of numbers equal or better to many of Sony's biggest and best titles, and Halo 5 did it's 5 million+ on a significantly smaller install base compared to PS4. Does this fact not mean a thing? What do you think Halo 5 would have sold if it Xbox One had sold as much as Playstation 4 did? Surely quite a bit more than it did.

The outer worlds by Obsidian is considered a big success, and has sold over 2 million copies, and that's even while being a multi-platform title that released on PS4 and PC. How is 343 who accomplished this with Master Chief Collection just on Steam a failure of a studio?

Even the highly successful Forza Horizon 4 did over 2 million it's first week, and I believe by now has crossed 7 million or so? How is Playgrounds a success but 343 a failure? It makes no sense.


343 are being judged by a set of rules that are so strange because even with the complaints and the whining about the choices they make for the Halo titles they've put out, they keep putting up the big numbers regardless. And no, it isn't enough to just say "Oh, well, that's just cause it's Halo" They're putting up the numbers.

And for the people who will use player count as a sign, there's a crap ton of other things out there in the MP shooter arena for people to play than there ever was back when Halo was seen as the dominant console shooter by far. Maybe, just maybe, the Halo community is much more interested in the epic campaign, playing a some MP and then moving on to something new than people care to admit? Is it bad for Ghosts of Tsushima that many have started playing other things? What about the Last of Us II? What about God of War? Yes, I know Halo is a major MP franchise also, but I don't feel that does anything to diminish the success 343 has had with the franchise. People sometimes buy, enjoy and just move on to the next. And I stress again the increased competition in this space compared to any previous time. Halo MP going free to play I think is the right move and something which will have a pretty major impact.

Another overlooked factor because we can already play Halo on PC is that Halo Infinite will be the very first Halo game to ever launch on PC simultaneously with the Xbox console release.

Back to the point. By no common sense measure is 343 somehow Microsoft's worst developer or a developer that isn't getting the job done. Countless studios would trade places for their so called "abysmal" track record in a heart beat. Any notion 343 is among Microsoft's worst developers is utter bs. Their games are well optimized, amazingly well optimized, their games are beautiful. Say what you want about them, but their games are all beautiful, which some failed to ever admit until it was useful for trolling Halo Infinite's initial gameplay reveal, which admittedly needed to be so much better.

But remember one thing: that Halo Infinite people saw was never released, and still has nearly 7-9 more months left in development. What's the next argument? Resources that they have? Even with the resources they have their results have not at all been terrible or subpar. 343 is selling the same numbers that Sony's best games are, and they're doing it with a significantly smaller install base of consoles.

Rant over.

Business-wise, 343 has been very successful for Microsoft. Halo continues to be a large franchise for XBOX.

In terms of reception and fan acceptance, it has been mixed, and not as strong as when Bungie was the developer. Those were different days however, before Call of Duty was big and other shooters existed. Halo 3 was peak Halo.

Halo's prime was during the original trilogy era. Launches were huge, fans were hyped, media attention was big, and reception was overwhelmingly positive. Those days are long gone now, as 4 and 5 were received with mix reviews, and the Master Chief Collection at launch was a disaster. Today, MCC is doing really well in terms of engagement and continued support.

I suspect Halo Infinite will be the real test of Halo being a worthy franchise for the next decade. We will have to wait and see.
 

ethomaz

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Imagine that.

You have 10 million fans and you launch a new sequel that only make happy half of those fans (I'm being generous here because 99% of the fans hated the campaign in Halo 5... MP is where it what hold these others 5 million fans)... is that a successful work?

You have 0 million fans and you launch a new IP that makes 5 million happy players... is that a successful work?

Now try to understand why your comparisons makes no sense.

i343 is the responsible for a huge decline in the franchise started with Halo 4.... in both Halo 4 and Halo 5 the campaign is mediocre to bad.
 
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Fbh

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Ah, the good ol' videogame version of the:
"Avengers Endgame, Avatar, Titanic, The Force Awakens and Avengers infinity war are factually the 5 best movies ever made because they made the most money".
 
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Andodalf

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Halo 4 had a great campaign and Halo 5 had great MP. Halo 4 Mp wasn't great and Halo 5 SP was rough. Halo 5 put up good numbers and had the strongest pro scene since 3. 343 aren't the best dev ever, but you people complaining a game doesn't make you feel the way you did when you were 13 are missing the picture.
 
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IntentionalPun

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Halo is representative of the failure of MS's strategy really.

They literally created a "Halo studio" because Halo was there most popular game.

They have a Forza Studio.. that granted, makes good games... but still, has just been churning out Forza games.

They had a "Gears" studio.. pumping out Gears games.

Even if all of these companies were creating great games, and.. they definitely didn't always.. this approach is so anti-creative it's sort of nauseating.

I have hop, but not faith.. that they'll improve. but TBH, outside of the Zenimax purchase, much of what they've bought are kinda mediocre devs.. and their brand new studio The Initiative announced a.. Perfect Dark game? And it's rumored to be "Episodic"? (aka, the 'let's release something sooner than we can get a full game done' approach).. and they've got Playground working on.. Fable? Like come on MS! lol
 
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Northeastmonk

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I still think Destiny hasn't touched Halo's universe. It's nowhere near it yet, but how could it be? Halo's lore is fucking fantastic. So many loved characters, so many awesome stories and epic moments. I pray that TV series delivers because I need it to.
You’re right, but they followed a formula that checks off a lot from the science fiction recipe for success. They have established races, worlds, weapons, lore, and they’re generating content for players still. It sure isn’t the Covenant, the Brutes, the Flood, or even the fight over the Halo ring. The Halo Saga is one of a kind. The biggest question was where was Bungie going after making Halo? Halo was probably a lot of work. If they didn’t give us another Master Chief, they coined an open worldish FPS rich in science fiction. They couldn’t do Halo anymore, but they had that drive to pursue another IP. They had all the tools they needed. I think it’s another success story like Bloodstained was. It wasn’t Castlevania, it didn’t exactly deal with Dracula. It sorta reskinned the game and now it has its own plot.
 

AgentP

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Churning out crappy Halo games might be a success for sales, but they are not a top tier developer.
 

Andodalf

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Halo is representative of the failure of MS's strategy really.

They literally created a "Halo studio" because Halo was there most popular game.

They have a Forza Studio.. that granted, makes good games... but still, has just been churning out Forza games.

They had a "Gears" studio.. pumping out Gears games.

Even if all of these companies were creating great games, and.. they definitely didn't always.. this approach is so anti-creative it's sort of nauseating.

I have hop, but not faith.. that they'll improve. but TBH, outside of the Zenimax purchase, much of what they've bought are kinda mediocre devs.. and their brand new studio The Initiative announced a.. Perfect Dark game? And it's rumored to be "Episodic"? (aka, the 'let's release something sooner than we can get a full game done' approach).. and they've got Playground working on.. Fable? Like come on MS! lol

What's wrong with making A Perfect Dark game? Or a Fable game? Both have tons of room to explore and redefine the IP.


And it's not anti creative to work on one thing, you just attract the people who want to make that one thing. 343 is made of devs who want to explicitly make halo, and take it in whatever direction they want. They knew that when they signed up. It's not like a studio was going to work on something else, and then was assigned to work on one I.P. in perpetuity. That would kind of suck....
 

ripeavocado

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Halo 4 was mediocre
Halo 5 was garbage
Halo 6infinite couldn't even be released because they fucked up.

Halo the best IP Microsoft has and one of the most lucrative gaming IP ever and they destroyed it with only 2 games
 

EverydayBeast

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Yeah it’s not fair the hate 343 gets, Halo 5 would have sold better on PS4 but because it was on the struggled failure Xbox One it did worse.
 
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Umbasaborne

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6 years to release a halo game plus an entire year long delay when microsoft was banking on this as a launch game screams of miss management. Id call them largely unsuccessful. The last good halo game they put out was halo 4. The mastercheif collection was a broken embarrassment for years, and halo 5 was a mess
 

AJUMP23

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Their successful, just not Bungie Halo successful. The games are not as good. I do think Halo 5 had excellent multiplayer, I just wish it didn't have the card system.
 

IntentionalPun

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What's wrong with making A Perfect Dark game? Or a Fable game? Both have tons of room to explore and redefine the IP.


And it's not anti creative to work on one thing, you just attract the people who want to make that one thing. 343 is made of devs who want to explicitly make halo, and take it in whatever direction they want. They knew that when they signed up. It's not like a studio was going to work on something else, and then was assigned to work on one I.P. in perpetuity. That would kind of suck....
Microsoft seems afraid to make anything "new" from an IP perspective.

And TBH... "people who just want to make one thing" are not what I'd describe as the epitome of creativeness.

You will be more likely to lose talented people who DONT want to create the same thing over and over. It's not a way to foster talent; that's really across all software development not just gaming.
 
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