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Turns out people are wrong about the ‘squeeze through cracks’ loading screens

Haggard

Banned
Devs never even once said this was impossible without an SSD. That’s just forum fud.
Wrong...
It was a HZD dev that said that they couldn't do it due to the HDD/CPU being too slow.
Any intelligent person understood that as in "we couldn't do it in this game with the current state of our tech".... Idiots turned this into "can't be done at all" .....
 

CamHostage

Member
Fast flying mounts would have been possible if the game didn't have to work on HDDs. The ones in the game are slow as fuck.

If they wanted to, they could put faster flying mounts into the PS5 Horizon FW tomorrow with DLC. The two versions aren't dependent upon each other; the PS5 version could go way faster than the PS4 version if the developers so desired.

And, it would suck...

As it is now with the flying mounts, you see the stitches of the world as the different biomes blend together. Even during the same ToD, the sky fades and the colors shift and the lighting changes and effects like fog rolls in as soon as you cross boundary barriers. Each area is custom-tuned for a certain cinematic presentation, with different foliage and weather and ambient sky and groundcover, and when you're walking between areas (particularly when you have to climb a mountain to get from one to the other,) the illusion that this is a seamless and sensible world works perfectly well; cross it from on high at high speed and the illusion has problems since structurally the zones need their own identity. The scale of the world feels big on foot, but in the sky, you see how far off from normal the size of the world is, as it goes from a misty jungle to an arid desert to a lush coastal forest in the span of five minutes.



Horizon is not a game made for flying. They put flying mounts in there because gamers griped that they couldn't fly, but flying usually sucks in games unless they're games made only for flying and it particularly sucks in open-world games for these reasons. (I'm very curious to see how flying works in Avatar Frontiers of Pandora, although they have an advantage in that they can fly amongst floating lands to keep it interesting, plus I don't believe they have confirmed a "fly-anywhere" mechanic.) Flying is fun when you're near the ground or flying through obstacles and fighting in the air; Horizon would have little reason to add obstacles in the air, and having dogfights with Sunwings would still be clumsy in fight mechanics (wing-to-wing melee combat?) and catastrophic to fail. So it makes sense why flight is only a bonus feature of the end of the game. It's possible that a third game could further expand the scale of the landscape so that flying over the entire world actually feels like flying (and isn't boring,) but the technical hurdles that a Horizon 3 wouldn't have to deal with in being PS5-exclusive would only partly solve the problems of flying sucking in Horizon.

It was a HZD dev that said that they couldn't do it due to the HDD/CPU being too slow.
Any intelligent person understood that as in "we couldn't do it in this game with the current state of our tech".... Idiots turned this into "can't be done at all" .....

Heh, it's always worth digging deeper into these "a developer said this..." memories that people have and take as gospel but never have a quote or link to really get into what the developer actually said. There's usually more to the story than people remember...

(I believe that line came from this GDC Post-Mort with Guerrilla Games' Principle Artist Gilbert Sanders, where he talked about features which didn't make it into the first game, largely in familiar ways that features don't make it info first games of a series because of technical challenges or time difficulties or directorial choices that they couldn't get around in that previous game. Sometimes new hardware solves it, sometimes just better programming solves it, and sometimes they don't even bother to solve it because they didn't end up wanting to go in that direction anyway. It could also have come from the Game AI NC event where they talked about having airborne creatures in Horizon, although that was primarily about solving for the Stormbird and other air-to-ground fighting enemies and adding height map elements to the game's open-world surface grid.)

For the record, you can glitch the game and fly over portions of the first Horizon and the HDD/CPU keeps up well enough. And then in Horizon FW, they added the Sunwing and did flying better. If they had done a third PS4 Horizon and they really cared about making flying work, probably they could have worked out the tech issues. It's similar to how GTA3 couldn't really do flying or seamless level transitions (except for the little Dodo, and I believe there's some old developer quote from back then about how the PS2's limitations made real flying not possible in that game) but by GTA San Andreas you can fly anywhere and don't hit loading screens. Given that a Horizon 3 would be only on PS5 (or PS5/PS6?), HDD would no longer be a problem, but again, the technical challenge is only part of the issue.

 
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Stooky

Member
it is. while you run down a hallway in an FPS you are in full control of your character, which means the gamedesigners can actually surprise you, something can happen that forces you to react, an enemy could come around the corner, break through the wall next to you etc.

in a forced slow walking sequence, or a push character through natrow crack sequence NOTHING can happen... everything that will happen can't be something where the player is expected to be able to react in any way, all tension is gone, immersion is gone, as you are pushing the stick forward because that's all you can do as all your other controls are taken away from you.

even if there's a jumpscare, it can't be a danger to your actual character's health, you can't go game over, because the restricted gameplay sequence you are in doesn't allow the gamedesigners to thow any real danger at you.


if you are in full control, even if you run through a seemingly empty room or empty hallway you can never be sure that there isn't an enemy somewhere,
furthermore you can't also be sure that you aren't missing something, that you aren't just running by a secret, or a good weapon to find etc.

but again, as soon as you shimmy through a crack or are in a forced slow walking segment, nothing can happen, at that point you stopped playing a game and are just watching a predetermined sequence where everything that can happen is fully scripted and therefore not really gameplay
Slow walks are usually used to give player a crucial piece of information visual or audio. I can’t tell you have many fps playthroughs I’ve seen with the player running around looking ant everything else, missing audio and visual cues besides what is needed to progess forward. Only later for that player to get lost and complain because they missed that info. That to me is bad game design. You can’t have it both ways.
 

01011001

Banned
Slow walks are usually used to give player a crucial piece of information visual or audio. I can’t tell you have many fps playthroughs I’ve seen with the player running around looking ant everything else, missing audio and visual cues besides what is needed to progess forward. Only later for that player to get lost and complain because they missed that info. That to me is bad game design. You can’t have it both ways.

yes you can IT'S CALLED A CUTSCENE...

also games like Gears back on Xbox 360 had a feature that let's you hold a button to focus on stuff that's happening around you.
you can fix this in many non-intrusive ways other than destroying immersion by taking away player control for no in-universe reasons, suddenly not letting you sprint etc. that is jarring.

also most slow walk sequences I know are literally just composed of the player character slowly following an NPC while both are badly animated and talk about shit. basically a cop out so they don't have to animate an actual cutscene.

and when was the last time you played one of these types of games that are most guilty of using such sequences, and were stuck? these are usually the types of games that are so dumbed down that a monkey that randomly moves the left stick around in circles would be able to progress the game
 
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IFireflyl

Gold Member
Its legit. Kind tired of these arguments;

THERE IS NOTHING INHERENTLY WRONG WITH LINEARITY.

Sure, it might not be to your liking, but that does not rebut the above statement.

Bottom line is you can't please everyone, because different folks like/dislike different elements. Trying to appease everyone is likely to please nobody as it devolves into endless subtraction.
As developers, they may as well stick to their vision

Feel free to disagree. But you're wrong, and I hate you. 😘
 

RoadHazard

Gold Member
If they wanted to, they could put faster flying mounts into the PS5 Horizon FW tomorrow with DLC. The two versions aren't dependent upon each other; the PS5 version could go way faster than the PS4 version if the developers so desired.

And, it would suck...

As it is now with the flying mounts, you see the stitches of the world as the different biomes blend together. Even during the same ToD, the sky fades and the colors shift and the lighting changes and effects like fog rolls in as soon as you cross boundary barriers. Each area is custom-tuned for a certain cinematic presentation, with different foliage and weather and ambient sky and groundcover, and when you're walking between areas (particularly when you have to climb a mountain to get from one to the other,) the illusion that this is a seamless and sensible world works perfectly well; cross it from on high at high speed and the illusion has problems since structurally the zones need their own identity. The scale of the world feels big on foot, but in the sky, you see how far off from normal the size of the world is, as it goes from a misty jungle to an arid desert to a lush coastal forest in the span of five minutes.



Horizon is not a game made for flying. They put flying mounts in there because gamers griped that they couldn't fly, but flying usually sucks in games unless they're games made only for flying and it particularly sucks in open-world games for these reasons. (I'm very curious to see how flying works in Avatar Frontiers of Pandora, although they have an advantage in that they can fly amongst floating lands to keep it interesting, plus I don't believe they have confirmed a "fly-anywhere" mechanic.) Flying is fun when you're near the ground or flying through obstacles and fighting in the air; Horizon would have little reason to add obstacles in the air, and having dogfights with Sunwings would still be clumsy in fight mechanics (wing-to-wing melee combat?) and catastrophic to fail. So it makes sense why flight is only a bonus feature of the end of the game. It's possible that a third game could further expand the scale of the landscape so that flying over the entire world actually feels like flying (and isn't boring,) but the technical hurdles that a Horizon 3 wouldn't have to deal with in being PS5-exclusive would only partly solve the problems of flying sucking in Horizon.



Heh, it's always worth digging deeper into these "a developer said this..." memories that people have and take as gospel but never have a quote or link to really get into what the developer actually said. There's usually more to the story than people remember...

(I believe that line came from this GDC Post-Mort with Guerrilla Games' Principle Artist Gilbert Sanders, where he talked about features which didn't make it into the first game, largely in familiar ways that features don't make it info first games of a series because of technical challenges or time difficulties or directorial choices that they couldn't get around in that previous game. Sometimes new hardware solves it, sometimes just better programming solves it, and sometimes they don't even bother to solve it because they didn't end up wanting to go in that direction anyway. It could also have come from the Game AI NC event where they talked about having airborne creatures in Horizon, although that was primarily about solving for the Stormbird and other air-to-ground fighting enemies and adding height map elements to the game's open-world surface grid.)

For the record, you can glitch the game and fly over portions of the first Horizon and the HDD/CPU keeps up well enough. And then in Horizon FW, they added the Sunwing and did flying better. If they had done a third PS4 Horizon and they really cared about making flying work, probably they could have worked out the tech issues. It's similar to how GTA3 couldn't really do flying or seamless level transitions (except for the little Dodo, and I believe there's some old developer quote from back then about how the PS2's limitations made real flying not possible in that game) but by GTA San Andreas you can fly anywhere and don't hit loading screens. Given that a Horizon 3 would be only on PS5 (or PS5/PS6?), HDD would no longer be a problem, but again, the technical challenge is only part of the issue.



Yes, to do GOOD seamless flying would require faster data loading than an HDD can do. As you say, in HFW it seems tacked on to shut up the people who say it couldn't be done. In a game made for the PS5 from the ground up (which HFW obviously wasn't) they could do it in a much better way.
 

Hugare

Member
Nah, squeeze throughs are 100% there due to loading

You telling me that they put that many "push crates/doors" in Uncharted 4 because its fun?

Since they have to put those in in order to mask loading, they try to use it as good as possible narratively. But its not the other way around.

I dont mind them during my first playthrough, but replays are a chore because of them.
 
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BabyYoda

Banned
All I know is it's an annoying mechanic that is copycatted way too often, I really hope developers find more elegant and creative solutions to the problems they mentioned.
 

Kokoloko85

Member
Ragnarok is going to be tricky for the warrior tribes because people want it to be GOTY but it is also crossgen so it must also be holding back true next gen gaming. Memeing on the cross gen haters who simp for Ragnarok is going to be Twitter sport for some time to come.
Like Elden Ring was cross gen and potentially game of the year?
 

SLB1904

Banned
Nah, squeeze throughs are 100% there due to loading

You telling me that they put that many "push crates/doors" in Uncharted 4 because its fun?

Since they have to put those in in order to mask loading, they try to use it as good as possible narratively. But its not the other way around.

I dont mind them during my first playthrough, but replays are a chore because of them.
Sp why just don't make it open world?
And then we complain why everything is open world

So predictable.
But hey maybe you are developer

Feels fine on series x with vrr
Yeah why these kids don't buy expensive tvs. Smh
 
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The only cracks I like to squeeze through have very little to do with gaming.... amirite?
CorruptCalmIberianmole-size_restricted.gif
 
They are much more noticeable in a game like God of War because the movement is less natural than something like Uncharted where the climbing sections are a large portion of the game play. Uncharted uses climbing as the "squeeze through". You also don't get a massive HUD icon saying "press O to crawl through this whole. Instead, Nate will just do it while you press the stick forward.
 
It depends how anal you want to be about it. The materials are very realistic these days, maybe if you compare aide by aide you can say, oh that shadow is not a perfect match or indirect lighting is not realistic, etc.

But in some scenes, in the middle of the action, in the right conditions we definitely have it, even the more stylized games can offer pretty decent lighting and feel "real".

However, it breaks as soon as water/fluid body simulation is needed, changing lighting conditions still break a lot of games, you get too close (MS flight sim is an example of a game that goes from stunning to N64 level).
 

22:22:22

NO PAIN TRANCE CONTINUE
If I'm I'm honoust. All these loading times and creative ways they implement so it doesn't takes you out of the action instead of a black screen with with a vertical line progressing in static intervals almost makes me quit gaming. I just can't handle it anymore.

Sad Feelings GIF
 
Going back to back with god of war and callisto protocol and JEEEZUS devs need to get more creative. Every 30 seconds Im crawling/squeezing/climbing something in callisto its ATROCIOUS.

Putting these in to mask loading already lacks creativity, but to put them in game for any other reason is purely brain dead thinking
 

RoboFu

One of the green rats
The new GOW games uses them as boundaries for fights and has alot of them. I would say the only time they have ever bothered me and that’s still just a minor thing.
 

01011001

Banned
Going back to back with god of war and callisto protocol and JEEEZUS devs need to get more creative. Every 30 seconds Im crawling/squeezing/climbing something in callisto its ATROCIOUS.

Putting these in to mask loading already lacks creativity, but to put them in game for any other reason is purely brain dead thinking

agreed.
it's the most braindead way to design a level.

but then again, that's true for many aspects of modern AAA game design.
everything is done super save and super context sensitive because implementing creative and well functioning systemic game mechanics in less scripted and restrictive Leveldesigns is more work and needs better devs I guess 🤷
 
agreed.
it's the most braindead way to design a level.

but then again, that's true for many aspects of modern AAA game design.
everything is done super save and super context sensitive because implementing creative and well functioning systemic game mechanics in less scripted and restrictive Leveldesigns is more work and needs better devs I guess 🤷

The excuse they gave just shows they don't know what the hell they are doing. They claim it is no longer needed to load areas, but instead to funnel players into certain locations and prevent them from "escaping" a combat arena until they are done. Except there are many ways they can do this without relying on the same, tired, boring method that just creates frustration and prevents many from wanting to return to the game. I love 2018, but I still haven't replayed it because all Ic an think of is how dreadful those long walk and talk sections and constant squeezing gets. Meanwhile I can pop in GoW 1-3 with zero issue and have a blast. No pointless drawn out sections or miserable pacing.
 

01011001

Banned
The excuse they gave just shows they don't know what the hell they are doing. They claim it is no longer needed to load areas, but instead to funnel players into certain locations and prevent them from "escaping" a combat arena until they are done. Except there are many ways they can do this without relying on the same, tired, boring method that just creates frustration and prevents many from wanting to return to the game. I love 2018, but I still haven't replayed it because all Ic an think of is how dreadful those long walk and talk sections and constant squeezing gets. Meanwhile I can pop in GoW 1-3 with zero issue and have a blast. No pointless drawn out sections or miserable pacing.

exactly the same here. i literally started playing GOW3 after I was done with Ragnarök, but I tried to replay 2018 multiple times on PC but I just can't... it's just so tedious
 
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