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Turns out people are wrong about the ‘squeeze through cracks’ loading screens

They aren’t JUST about loading levels, they have a multitude of design purposes that aren’t going to simply go away because of SSD’s on current gen systems. Also, right now im playing Plague Tale Requiem, a current gen only game, and what do you know there are tons of ‘squeeze through cracks’ being used the same way Kurt is talking about here. Which is why they are so common in more linear, arena based action games.

Its why even though something like Horizon Forbidden West looks more graphically intensive it doesn’t use it while something like God of War does.





 
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IFireflyl

Gold Member
They aren’t JUST about loading levels, they have a multitude of design purposes that aren’t going to simply go away because of SSD’s on current gen systems. Also, right now im playing Plague Tale Requiem, a current gen only game, and what do you know there are tons of ‘squeeze through cracks’ being used the same way Kurt is talking about here. Which is why they are so common in more linear, arena based action games.

Developers stuck on using forced walking and "squeeze through" methods need to reevaluate their game design. That shit is annoying to the player and should be discarded. Full stop.
 
Developers stuck on using forced walking and "squeeze through" methods need to reevaluate their game design. That shit is annoying to the player and should be discarded. Full stop.

That could be true that maybe they could find something more creative to replace them with but I don’t think they are going away completely for the reasons mentioned above. It;s similar to old beat em’ up games like ninja turtles or streets of rage where they funnel you from one map to the next after beating everyone up, they can’t do that in 3d games so they gotta think of other way of closing off the arena’s or to keep you moving forward.

I’m not as bothered by it as other people are, tbh. The only time i hated it was in FF7R in sector 7 slums in that section with the kids
 
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This was also touched upon in the Unreal Engine 5 demo with the devs shutting down the idea that it was used to mask loading screens. This is one of those gaming tropes that devs just like to use that got turned into something completely different cause most people just don’t know what they’re talking about.

It reminds me of how everyone was saying there couldn’t be flying in Horizon Forbidden West because it was a cross-gen game. That they had to cut it due to the system not being powerful enough lol






https://www.eurogamer.net/epic-insi...ech-demo-crevice-shimmy-wasnt-a-loading-trick
 
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DeepEnigma

Gold Member

Oh, fuck that.

They to me (door scenes), takes away from the immersion and reminds me that I am playing just a videogame.

The squeeze through fits more so and doesn't to me, take me out of the immersion.


close-in detail
Another reason why I don't mind them. In most cases, they are screenshot worthy.

On a side note... I am starting to see less complaints about it recently, now that it wasn't just a certain first party utilizing it, and 3rd party games that some use to fill in first party draught have them as well, and zero critical outrage by some of those same cynics.
 
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Klosshufvud

Member
This was also touched upon in the Unreal Engine 5 demo with the devs shutting down the idea that it was used to mask loading screens. This is one of those gaming tropes that devs just like to use that got turned into something completely different cause most people just don’t know what they’re talking

https://www.eurogamer.net/epic-insi...ech-demo-crevice-shimmy-wasnt-a-loading-trick
Big difference between a tech demo running off God knows what hardware (minimum baseline a PS5) compared to full games on aging consoles. One of the reasons why ND managed so fine looking games on PS3 was precisely this. They were able to load some high quality assets on a limited RAM precisely because the games were designed with breathing room to replace assets as you played. Just compare how much more open UC4/TLOU2 are compared to the restricted UC2/TLOU1. It is definitely a hardware compromise and ND is no stranger to that. They carefully designed Jak games around this too. It is standard smoke and mirror tricks to mask hardware shortcomings. This is why I always felt the technical praise for those games was somewhat overblown.

I believe FF7R was plagued by this too as UE4 struggled on 8th gen consoles in general due to being somewhat demanding on bad CPUs. That game has obscene amounts of claustrophobic corridors with cramped tight spots.
 

CamHostage

Member
Yep.

When Cerny was talking about how HDDs or other slow storage media forced designers to put in twisty hallways and other gates of progress/visibility, that's partly true, but his "Dream of the SSD" was about what was possible with this new technical freedom...

It's not just a "huzzah, the future!" situation, though. Somebody's still got to come up with what hasn't been done before.

The technical restriction here gets lifted with faster drives (and can be worked around in other ways; Spider-Man PS4 had some transition gates, yet Miles Morales erased a lot of that despite still being cross-gen,) but the rest of the reasons why games have transition gates that still exist. Visibility, structure, enemy pathing, stability, pacing, etc.

A game designer could now come up with the next generation of linear action game which has new methods to address all these other matters now that the technical issue is moot. However, it's still an idea that has to be experimented with and implemented. Cerny gives no examples of what other design solves would be, just that, thanks to the SSD's speed, developers could start thinking that way. Trusted good-old ideas only get left behind when new ideas make things better, not when new tech comes out.



I talked about this a bunch in a long post elsewhere that I might as well link over:
https://www.neogaf.com/threads/the-official-crossgen-rant-thread.1643673/page-2#post-266784989

You still have to design new engines for an expanded sense of scale though. We're still working on first-gen PS5/XB Series engines. (Partly due to setbacks because of COVID, and GoW:R was supposedly targeting last year; also new engines are taking longer and longer to develop, you can see from how long it has taken for UE5 games to come out despite Epic hitting most of its milestones, in the gen before it mainstream UE4 games took over 2 years to come out; UE3 started after 1 year.)

...And then, you need to devise and experiment with new level design techniques which will work without the tried-and-true techniques.

Level gates like squeeze-through caverns or elevators aren't just there to hide the data loading. Yes, they can and usually are loading the next level in off the hard drive, and so that's one thing that forces this delay (especially on a HDD,) but lots of things happen to the game during these sequences that aren't data steaming. The lighting tends to get reset for the new scene, changing the color response and sometimes skymap for the look of the next scene. (People talk about "lighting" as just one thing, where you place your sun-source and turn on some lamps and everything is lit pretty if you do it well, but cinematic games have drastically different lighting set-ups for each scene, and even open-world games customize their lighting per zone. Fly across Horizon FW and you'll see lighting and other effects like fog fade to change drastically as you cross biome lines even though the TOD remains the same.) Enemies or NPC get reset and locked out while parameters can be dropped and changed, making a clear and easy delineation in the game's level design for what happens on each side of the gate. (I would imagine it also helps save crashes if certain active elements can be cycled out when not needed, though I don't know if that juggling is really so challenging in a modern game structure?) Sound is reconfigured often in these gates, with tracks blending and new sound beds replacing the previous area's sonic signature. Sometimes the two pieces of level aren't even "lined up" as you would assume areas of a map would be connected, and instead your character is bamphed away during that load from one stage block to another. Lots of technical bits can be quickly cycled while your character is staring at a wall, even if it's just for a second.

You can see some of these aspects of what gets loaded and reset if you watch some of the Boundary Break videos out there.


And then, there's just visual impact. These cinematic linear action games want to wow you when you enter a new area, and so they use different sleight-of-hand tricks to distract you from what they're about to show you until it's ready to be revealed. Put a big mountain between a dark forest killing ground and a majestic bustling city filled with villagers and you have something exciting to see when you emerge from the cavern or cut through the ravine; if you can see the city off in the distance while you're fighting monsters, the effect is lessened (and it makes it weird that you're busting your ass smashing monsters while they're carrying water pots around town.) Put a dialog sequence where the camera is out of the player's hands with cropped closeups of faces, and the game can do some of this same loading/resetting while you're having that chat. Etc.

Even in a game where the loading is "instantaneous" like Ratchet & Clank Rift Apart, it still takes advantage of that transition zone when falling through rifts so that everything between the two levels works properly and looks visually appropriate. And in the Pocket Dimensions, it's possible to glitch the spaces so that your character travels from zone to zone and see the tricks they use to make these two realms seem seamlessly stitched together.



These stretches of playable game space that players think of as a "world" tend to actually be much more limited and unbuilt than you would think they'd be. Partly, that's a savings on resources, but mostly it's just how games are made and how it makes sense to build playable spaces to direct players for what they should be playing versus what they think is out there in this "world". It's Hollywood in digital form.

And to change that, it's not just a technical fix.

SSDs make the data quicker, but they don't make the design easier, or the new ideas on how to do brand-new sleight-of-hand tricks any simpler to come up with. If a game has a ladder which leads down into a dark dungeon, you the player know what will be down there and so does the level designer; make that dungeon entrance a big cave mouth and it's less clear what will follow you in or out and when you are in or not in the dungeon. There's the theatrical experience where the audience and designers are using the same understood concepts to understand the play space, and then there's the technical aspect where control needs to be applied to ensure a smooth experience. Of course, games have evolved past being that simple (caves for instance tend to just reset everything based on a threshold, and players understand that they've crossed a threshold based on the lighting,) but in some ways, they haven't, because what works works. New game design approaches and mechanics had to be devised as games went open-world, and similarly new designs will have to be explored as linear games pull out their stitches.
 
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Flabagast

Member
Except in god of war you can go backwards and thus squeeze back the other way, having to wait 10 seconds each time (and several times in a row on some levels). This explanation does not make any fucking sense and just seems a really poor excuse to be totally honest.
 

GhostOfTsu

Banned
Most embarrassing complaint I have seen 🙄
On a side note... I am starting to see less complaints about it recently, now that it wasn't just a certain first party utilizing it, and 3rd party games that some use to fill in first party draught have them as well, and zero critical outrage by some of those same cynics.
I rest my case. Those same critics that I see playing and praising this game, aren't bothered all of a sudden. The Medium has it as well, and I know those scenes weren't for "loading" ... it was part of the suspense and flow of the game.
This x1000. I see those cracks all the time and suddenly it's a big issue for GOW only.

Where were the articles about this "overused" mechanic until now?
 
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AmuroChan

Member
They're not deal breakers for me, but I do find them annoying if I have to do it too many times in a game. One improvement I think they could make is once I enter the squeeze through area, just have the character automatically move through rather than making me push the stick forward. That's the part that I find annoying. To me, it's actually more annoying than a loading screen because at least a loading screen doesn't require me to do anything.
 

Larxia

Member
I HATE this mechanic, was just talking about it recently. I didn't really think about the loading thing though, I just hate the mechanic itself, it's so boring and repetitive and always the same, everytime I see these cracks I get annoyed. I think FF XV was the first game where it really started to annoy me, and since then I feel like I see it all the time.
 

Solidus_T

Member
Why does this shit even matter? Why does it bother some people to go between a crack for 4 sec. Like seriously, at this point we are just looking for little things to complaign.
They would rather spend that time looking at $8.00-$20.00 skins or a battle pass or something.
Just a guess
 

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
Loading screens are better.
Saints And Sinners Reaction GIF by Bounce
 

solidus12

Member
Why do people always have extremely high standards when it comes to PlayStation games? There was no squeeze through drama when A plague tale Requiem launched, a game that’s current gen only.

Why there was no backlash on how Elding Ring plays similarly to the other souls games? But now it’s a problem for Ragnarok.

I can go on and on… jeez , just play and shut the fuck up, you entitled shits who receive free codes.
 
Squeeze through should be used like Tomb Raider games.

Over in a flash and doesn't take you out of the experience.

Provided they are not being used to hide loading screen that is.

10 sec is too long and enough to make me put down controller and just push the stick.
 

01011001

Banned
This is the controversy of the day?

Confused Tom Hanks GIF

I too am surprised that gamedesign is actually discussed in a forum of photo mode whores...

but that is a good change for once as these things are annoying and kill immersion by making you hold forward for multiple seconds while what's essentially a really boring cutscene plays in front of you for often no good reason whatsoever
 
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Squeeze through is fine as long as it is done in moderation. 2-5 times tops with a limit of one maybe every 3-5 hours.

Anything more than that and it gets fucking old. Do better level design.
 

Yoboman

Member
I know you're one of those, so of course you don't care about gamedesign
Well paced games achieve that by having a variety of moments that are slow, empty, puzzle focused, action focused, story focused. All of it culminates together. Pushing through a crack in the wall is no different than running down a hallway in an FPS between combat portions
 

TrueLegend

Member
GOW is a case of mastering the limitation and using it creatively, as it gives you great comfy space for focusing on conversations. However, a limitation is still a limitation. Look at the dead space remake gameplay to understand how freedom makes games more immersive. Infact imo linear games with broad expanded and rich level designs are the best ones.
 

Yoboman

Member
GOW is a case of mastering the limitation and using it creatively, as it gives you great comfy space for focusing on conversations. However, a limitation is still a limitation. Look at the dead space remake gameplay to understand how freedom makes games more immersive. Infact imo linear games with broad expanded and rich level designs are the best ones.
GOW isn't linear though
 
Anyone who has a next gen system should know better. I only have a PS5 and I don't think that there is any scenario where I see a game made for take more than 4 to 7 seconds to load. These walking sections are often around 30 seconds (unbearable, I know... I break a TV and controller each time because I do the only reasonable thing, I throw the controller in the TV because I can't wait any longer).
 

Stooky

Member
cutscenes... better Leveldesign... you know... something where you aren't put into a sequence where you are becoming the guy who pushed down the play button on a broken VHS Recorder while a basically non-interactive sequence plays
replaced with a cutscene...... So lets think about the cost of that. Squeeze thru versus an expensive cut scene, you have to book the actors expensive, rent mocop stage expensive , folley, animators ,bg artist, sound department, and this scene should be entertaining and fit into the over all story......versus a short squeeze thru....nah. Squeeze thru are also cheap and fast to implement compared to cutscene. Another point in the squeeze thru is to keep the player engaged vs cutsence where the player is passive.
 
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01011001

Banned
Well paced games achieve that by having a variety of moments that are slow, empty, puzzle focused, action focused, story focused. All of it culminates together. Pushing through a crack in the wall is no different than running down a hallway in an FPS between combat portions

it is. while you run down a hallway in an FPS you are in full control of your character, which means the gamedesigners can actually surprise you, something can happen that forces you to react, an enemy could come around the corner, break through the wall next to you etc.

in a forced slow walking sequence, or a push character through natrow crack sequence NOTHING can happen... everything that will happen can't be something where the player is expected to be able to react in any way, all tension is gone, immersion is gone, as you are pushing the stick forward because that's all you can do as all your other controls are taken away from you.

even if there's a jumpscare, it can't be a danger to your actual character's health, you can't go game over, because the restricted gameplay sequence you are in doesn't allow the gamedesigners to thow any real danger at you.


if you are in full control, even if you run through a seemingly empty room or empty hallway you can never be sure that there isn't an enemy somewhere,
furthermore you can't also be sure that you aren't missing something, that you aren't just running by a secret, or a good weapon to find etc.

but again, as soon as you shimmy through a crack or are in a forced slow walking segment, nothing can happen, at that point you stopped playing a game and are just watching a predetermined sequence where everything that can happen is fully scripted and therefore not really gameplay
 
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