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The case for PS3 back compat

stitch1

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I recently played Dead Space on Series X. This week I bought a copy of Portal 2 on 360 so that I could play co-op with my wife. I own both of these games on PS3 but I can't play either on my PS5. I would very much like to play through the Resistance series again. I could even make a case for playing through all of the old Killzone games. They were a bit a head of their time in a lot of ways. I would like to see what the more powerful hardware would do for games like that. Yet none of these are currently playable on the PS5. Well, maybe if streamed using PS Now. However, I am not even sure they are all on there.

A few others I would like to revisit are all the God of Wars, Sly Cooper, Ratchet & Clank, and most of all Metal Gear.

After seeing the news of the stores for the PS3, Vita, and PSP closing really got me thinking. Not so much that I want to buy these games on those systems. Although, I do really like the Vita and I think they gave up on it too quickly. But rather, I just want to be able to play these games on the PS5.

Give props where they are due.. Xbox has really done a good job at adding backwards compatibility to their platform. But it could be even better. Most of those games I listed are Sony games. I just wish Sony would have the same features on their platform.

I saw earlier today that back compat games are coming to XCloud. So I can now pick up where I left off on Oblivion from my phone. All my old game save are there waiting for me. That is crazy cool. That game is from 2006! I still enjoy the heck of it. We can even go back to Morrowind from 2002. I didn't play that one. Not sure if I should now or not. But it's available if I wanted to.

And before you all say it, yes I know PS3 is super hard to code for and therefor hard to emulate. That's just an excuse. If Sony really wanted to they could find a way. They created the beast they should have some ideas on how to mimic it. And yes, I too want "NEW" games as well. We can have both. If Xbox can do it Sony certainly could as well. Like who doesn't like Dead Space and Portal 2? Sure, they are old but they are still great games. Locking away Metal Gear 4 to a platform that will soon not even have a store front makes me sad!

 

01011001

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sony would need to make their own emulator, and that seems to be too much for them. I'm still hoping that someone successfully ports RPCS3 to the Universal Windows Platform so that we might some day be able to play PS3 games on Series X. the hardware is strong enough, I just don't know how performance limiting UWP is if it is at all.
 

01011001

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most of the sony exclusives are on PS Now. the killzones. infamouses, sly cooper ...all the god of wars. Ratchets etc.

They don't have all the resistance games for some reason

yay input lag. Sony's streaming tech is the worst in the industry, and I wouldn't want to stream them even on GeForce Now or Stadia, both of which have vastly better latency than PSNow
 

01011001

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i can play PS Now title with barely noticeable input lag.

yeah that "barely noticeable" shit, I mean if that's what you feel like, good for you. but there are people out there who said the same thing about the Xbox One version of Rise of the Tomb Raider, and that game is fucking hilariously bad when it comes to input lag. yet people exist that say with a straight face, that the game had no noticeable input lag 🙃

there are still people to this day who say Killzone 2 doesn't have too much lag as well :messenger_tears_of_joy:

I played PS3 games through it too, and it was atrocious. I also played GeForce Now and Stadia, and both of them are SO MUCH better, but even there I wouldn't want to play any games seriously.
 
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StateofMajora

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yeah that "barely noticeable" shit, I mean if that's what you feel like, good for you. but there are people out there who said the same thing about the Xbox One version of Rise of the Tomb Raider, and that game is fucking hilariously bad when it comes to input lag. yet people exist that say with a straight face, that the game had no noticeable input lag 🙃

there are still people to this day who say Killzone 2 doesn't have too much lag as well :messenger_tears_of_joy:

I played PS3 games through it too, and it was atrocious. I also played GeForce Now and Stadia, and both of them are SO MUCH better, but even there I wouldn't want to play any games seriously.
Aye. Killzone 2 is great and all, but damn. Playing that thing on a 2008 ish vizio back in the day was kinda bad at times. Wonder how it'd feel now on a modern set with under 1 frame of lag like a Samsung or LG... haven't played it in years. But hell I managed to beat the final level on hardest lol.
 
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lachesis

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I actually played MGS4 the other day on my new 17" CRT monitor @ 480p. Looked actually pretty good to me for some reason, although text size were too small to make out sometimes. Will try out at 720p (it accepts the signal, but I will have to manually squeeze the image to 16x9 size) and see how it would look.

About BC... I wonder if its feasible to implement for Sony to enable PS Now content, if you own digital or physical copy of the game - free of charge to stream on PS Now for that specific game? It would not be as good as playing on original hardware, but maybe it will make some argument on how they also do BC... (I know, it's a pipe dream...)
 

01011001

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Good grief. I can tell the difference between 26ms tv lag and 32ms tv lag, can't even imagine streaming lag! Just, no. Not to mention artifacts.

yeah, I wouldn't even be able to play many games anymore on a 26ms TV. mine is ~17ms at 60hz and ~7ms at 120hz
given that many modern games have input lag issues on their own this is almost a necessity nowadays sadly.
 
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01011001

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Aye. Killzone 2 is great and all, but damn. Playing that thing on a 2008 ish vizio back in the day was kinda bad at times. Wonder how it'd feel now on a modern set with under 1 frame of lag like a Samsung or LG... haven't played it in years. But hell I managed to beat the final level on hardest lol.

it would still be pretty bad I bet.

here's a video of someone testing it on a CRT! so basically lag free display. and if you can tell by the naked eye, it is bad lol


it is 150ms btw. as a comparison, Halo 3, which also ran at 30fps, had 90ms, the average 30fps game has 100ms to 110ms lag. Killzone 3 was at around 115ms if I remember correctly

yet of course people back then denied that Killzone 2 had any input lag issues, there were so many videos on youtube saying "input lag myth busted" and shit like that, it was hilarious. as if people just randomly claimed that out of nowhere, especially back then when Input lag issues weren't really talked about much.

and given that PSNow will add AT LEAST 50 to 60ms of lag if you're lucky and close to the server farm, even a 100ms lag game like many 30fps games have will end up being above 150ms, which is the issue with streaming PS3 games. most of them are 30fps, some already had inherent input lag above the optimal lag for their framerate target, so adding 50ms in the best case scenario is not great
 
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01011001

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Some games don't deserve to die on the PS3, apparently, Jim Ryan doesn't think the same way.
Games like:
MGS4
Killzone 2 and 3
Siren
God of War Ascension
Red Dead Redemption
Infamous
Metal Gear Solid HD Collection
Final Fantasy XIII
Condemned 2
ICO

Damn, this is so wrong

well all the multiplats you listed are back compat on Xbox and FFXIII and Red Dead even are enhanced and run at up to 4K resolution (they run at 9x of the original 360 version). they even replaced the cinematics in FFXIII to use the highest quality versions they had rendered out.

edit: apparently Condemned 2 is not compatible, only the first game... well, shame
 
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ReBurn

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The thing is...

...Sony doesn't care. They would rather sell you emulated PS2 games again that help you find a way to place the games you already own.
 
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Gamerguy84

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Well.... If you've got a PS digital library of about 300 games, investing in Xbox won't do ya any good.

Unless they announce emulation it is what it is though. That's a good possibility down the road. I hooked up a new refurbished PS3 last night and was playing TR1 from PS1. I'll probably play around with that a few days but I'm building a backlog over here lol

All hardware will eventually fail so it's one of those two or I guess emulation.

All I'm saying is if having a library back until those gens is extremely important to someone they should go with Xbox because they seem to have more support for it.
 
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01011001

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All I'm saying is if having a library back until those gens is extremely important to someone they should go with Xbox because they seem to have more support for it.

and since there's a new dude whitelisting people for retroarch... lol... PS2 is a possibility there too xD

I am currently replaying Shadow of Rome on my Series X, at 1080p (going too high introduces slowdowns sadly)

but I might soon put PS3Hen on my Super Slim, because there are some games that have better compatibility on a modded PS3 than on Series X atm. and I wanna play Urban Chaos Riot Response again, which sadly runs really badly atm on Series X
 
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With the emulator in progress you'll be playing MGS4 on a Series X before you see any BC rerelease of MGS4 on PS5, outside of it being charged to you on PSnow.

Also Sony isn't interested in overall PS3 games, they want to select the most in demand and charge you for them again on service or remasters.
 

Ozrimandias

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well all the multiplats you listed are back compat on Xbox and FFXIII and Red Dead even are enhanced and run at up to 4K resolution (they run at 9x of the original 360 version). they even replaced the cinematics in FFXIII to use the highest quality versions they had rendered out.

edit: apparently Condemned 2 is not compatible, only the first game... well, shame
Yeah, i was thinking on getting an Series X only for those games but, i dunno.....it's kind of sad the direction that Sony took.
 

small_law

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I'm dying to go back and play some of my PS3 games, resistance and MGS4 among others. My fat launch PS3 It's functional, but it's hit permanent retirement in the archive.
 
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Fox Mulder

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Quite frankly its crazy that sony cant do what microsoft has

Sony did better for generations with hardware backwards compatibility. The ps2 could play ps1 and the ps3 supported both until they removed ps2 to cut costs. Now they don’t even care.

MS has done an amazing job with BC, but is limited by publisher approval and licensing since it’s emulation. I’ll have to keep a 360 around for games still.
 

01011001

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Sony did better for generations with hardware backwards compatibility. The ps2 could play ps1 and the ps3 supported both until they removed ps2 to cut costs. Now they don’t even care.

MS has done an amazing job with BC, but is limited by publisher approval and licensing since it’s emulation. I’ll have to keep a 360 around for games still.

and I don't get it. their emulator even on PS3 can play A TON OF GAMES... now with softmods people can actually try every game on it and so many work really well, it is ridiculous that they didn't offer backwards compatibility for those titles.

here are the STATS, and this is only from th egames tested, many are untested because they are niche or people simple didn't post their findings:
218 Games are "Official PS2 Classics"
665 Games are "Playable"
118 Games have "Minor Issues"
47 Games have "Major Issues"
73 Games are "Unplayable"

this means, on a modded PS3 you can play more than 1000 PS2 games without any major issues. the "Minor Issues" category are games that have small graphics glitches or minor slowdowns, the "Playable" category run almost 100% correct as they did on PS2. and again, not every game was tested and the last update on this was in June 2019

and remember, this is the emulator they used for the officially released PS2 games, so this was not even tested or optimized for all the other games whatsoever.
and the fact that the 200 or so officially released download versions are not compatibly via disc is another thing.

EDIT: here are the stats on a modded PS4 btw:

54 Games are "Official PS2 Classics"
536 Games are "Playable"
180 Games have "Minor Issues"
91 Games have "Major Issues"
251 Games are "Unplayable"

so on PS4 we have 770 perfectly playable to highly playable PS2 games with an emulator that was only optimized for 54 officially downloadable games! SEVEN HUNDRED AND SEVENTY!

as a reminder, there are only 577 Xbox 360 games backwards compatible on Xbox One/SX (which is a matter of licensing mostly, because they have to repackage the game and so they need the rights to do that)
 
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fart town usa

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BC is cool and I'd welcome it with open arms.

The real answer is just to never put your PS3 away. Every living room deserves a PS3. It's the the only reasonable solution.
 

01011001

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BC is cool and I'd welcome it with open arms.

The real answer is just to never put your PS3 away. Every living room deserves a PS3. It's the the only reasonable solution.

I hate the PS3, I feel physically ill whenever I have to turn it on or use that god awful controller... so, I WOULD HIGHLY WISH for fucking back compat! The games on this system deserve to be freed from their shitty, ugly hell they are stuck in!

#FreeThePS3games

poor MGS4 and Motorstorm series stuck on this hellhole of a system! And all the Ratched and Clank future games! HELP THEM SONY! PLEASE!
 
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StateofMajora

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yeah, I wouldn't even be able to play many games anymore on a 26ms TV. mine is ~17ms at 60hz and ~7ms at 120hz
given that many modern games have input lag issues on their own this is almost a necessity nowadays sadly.
I mean, it’s not bad. You can adjust. My A8h is actually 18ms which is quite responsive, same as yours apparently ; only with bfi is it 26ms, which is the setting I game with. Definitely noticeable, but motion smoothness is more important to me than lag, at least at these levels of lag. My holy grail for the near future is a Sony oled that is less than 15ms with bfi, which isn’t the A90J. Maybe next model or the model after.

My X900e is 31 or 32 ms, and again it’s a bit of an adjustment initially but I get used to it. Been looking to upgrade that one, but Sony hasn’t produced a worthy replacement yet. Hell they're even going backwards in picture processing lately on the lcd side.

My too much lag point is over two frames, so x900e is right at the limit for me lol. X900f or z9d at 1080p is over 40ms which I don’t wanna deal with personally.
 
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01011001

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I mean, it’s not bad. You can adjust. My A8h is actually 18ms which is quite responsive, same as yours apparently ; only with bfi is it 26ms, which is the setting I game with. Definitely noticeable, but motion smoothness is more important to me than lag, at least at these levels of lag. My holy grail for the near future is a Sony oled that is less than 15ms with bfi, which isn’t the A90J. Maybe next model or the model after.

My X900e is 31 or 32 ms, and again it’s a bit of an adjustment initially but I get used to it. Been looking to upgrade that one, but Sony hasn’t produced a worthy replacement yet. Hell they're even going backwards in picture processing lately on the lcd side.

My too much lag point is over two frames, so x900e is right at the limit for me lol. X900f or z9d at 1080p is over 40ms which I don’t wanna deal with personally.

of course you can adjust, but I play Apex Legends for example in ranked a lot. I am already at a disadvantage because I am playing on PS4 (no cross progression yet... :( ) I play it on a PC monitor and switching to TV takes me at least 5h of adjusting to the additional lag, even tho it is below 20ms
and at Diamond rank you will need every advantage you can get. I am already having to play against people on One X, SX or PS5, which all have higher resolutions and vastly better framerates than me (especially PS5 and SX)

and because I'm playing a lot more PC these days than I did only a few years ago, my tolerance for input lag IS REALLY low nowadays. if you play stuff like Valorant at 288FPS (that's where I locked it to get 2x the FPS of my panel's refresh) and then go to a 30fps game on console playing on a TV... yeah, that is jarring as hell.
 

StateofMajora

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it would still be pretty bad I bet.

here's a video of someone testing it on a CRT! so basically lag free display. and if you can tell by the naked eye, it is bad lol


it is 150ms btw. as a comparison, Halo 3, which also ran at 30fps, had 90ms, the average 30fps game has 100ms to 110ms lag. Killzone 3 was at around 115ms if I remember correctly

yet of course people back then denied that Killzone 2 had any input lag issues, there were so many videos on youtube saying "input lag myth busted" and shit like that, it was hilarious. as if people just randomly claimed that out of nowhere, especially back then when Input lag issues weren't really talked about much.

and given that PSNow will add AT LEAST 50 to 60ms of lag if you're lucky and close to the server farm, even a 100ms lag game like many 30fps games have will end up being above 150ms, which is the issue with streaming PS3 games. most of them are 30fps, some already had inherent input lag above the optimal lag for their framerate target, so adding 50ms in the best case scenario is not great
That’s not a crt. Looks like an lcd.

Hd crts have lag just like flat panels, btw. If it is that and not lcd.

Yeah, I remember digital foundry’s article on the lag. Thought halo 3 was 133ms though...? Need to check that one. Kz3 is 116 which felt night and day more responsive than kz2, but they ruined the feel and graphics to do so lol.
 
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StateofMajora

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of course you can adjust, but I play Apex Legends for example in ranked a lot. I am already at a disadvantage because I am playing on PS4 (no cross progression yet... :( ) I play it on a PC monitor and switching to TV takes me at least 5h of adjusting to the additional lag, even tho it is below 20ms
and at Diamond rank you will need every advantage you can get. I am already having to play against people on One X, SX or PS5, which all have higher resolutions and vastly better framerates than me (especially PS5 and SX)

and because I'm playing a lot more PC these days than I did only a few years ago, my tolerance for input lag IS REALLY low nowadays. if you play stuff like Valorant at 288FPS (that's where I locked it to get 2x the FPS of my panel's refresh) and then go to a 30fps game on console playing on a TV... yeah, that is jarring as hell.
I still game on an analog crt, and can still adjust to flat panels. Online I can understand that, I’d turn off bfi on oled if I ever games online but I don’t 😋
 

01011001

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That’s not a crt. Looks like an lcd.

Hd crts have lag just like flat panels, btw. If it is that and not lcd.

Yeah, I remember digital foundry’s article on the lag. Thought halo 3 was 133ms though...? Need to check that one. Kz3 is 116 which felt night and day more responsive than kz2, but they ruined the feel and graphics to do so lol.

it was apparently around 105 or 110? I thought 90ms. but Reach was the gold standard apparently. I can't find reliable sources all I can find is that Reach was really low or even the lowest 30fps game DF tested... but no numbers
 
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AGRacing

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This should have been worked on for years and ready to go with PS5. Maybe they could have got Bluepoint to do it... by buying them.

And even if Nvidia is holding the RSX ransom.... PS2 and PS1 should have just been an easy "gimme".

They just don't care..... and they're becoming their old arrogant selves... and it's turning me off to the whole brand for the first time since they started. You can still buy compatible 360 and Xbox titles digitally online to play with auto HDR, uprez, etc.... meanwhile over on Playstation... "we're shutting the stores down!!!" Pretty pathetic.

When I was able to pull a lot of my older Xbox library out of the basement for Series X -- that impressed me. I use the feature. When I look at my PS3 library I just shake my head.
 

StateofMajora

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it was apparently around 105 or 110? I thought 90ms. but Reach was the gold standard apparently. I can't find reliable sources all I can find is that Reach was really low or even the lowest 30fps game DF tested... but no numbers
Man, kz2 and then reach the next year. Good times!
 
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dolabla

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I still have my PS3 hooked up and was just playing some MGS4 the other day, but it's pretty crazy how Sony is flat out ignoring PS1-PS3 backwards compatibility on the PS5. Don't nobody want that stupid streaming shit. Give us a native solution where you can pop the disc in and play your games. I would also like to use the PS5 controller instead of the PS3 controller due to that god awful oily/sticky residue that appears on the joysticks.
 
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Unless Sony offers BC for legacy systems on PS4/PS5 your best bet is PS Now (if someone doesn't want to play it on an old system).
 
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I still have my PS3 hooked up and was just playing some MGS4 the other day, but it's pretty crazy how Sony is flat out ignoring PS1-PS3 backwards compatibility on the PS5. Don't nobody want that stupid streaming shit. Give us a native solution where you can pop the disc in and play your games. I would also like to use the PS5 controller instead of the PS3 controller due to that god awful oily/sticky residue that appears on the joysticks.
Offering BC with legacy systems cant be that hard. They've done it before and hobbyists can figure it out. I'm sure Sony HQ has the programs to do it.

Business view
Problem is if you let gamers play legacy games, gamers will funnel their money to old cheap games. Those oldies didn't have monetization either. If they want to play them, make them sub to PS Now

Counter view
Steam and GOG offer oldies for cheap. They don't seem to give a shit and if gamers want to play a 10 year old game for $5 and that gamer spends all day milking that game, then let them. They'll buy other stuff at some point to keep the money coming in. And these PC services don't even have PS+ or Xbox Gold fees to contribute to the pot. Whether it's a PC hoarder buying 100 games or a dude buying an ancient game on a 75% off deal, they are fine with both kinds of customers.
 

EDMIX

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Unless Sony offers BC for legacy systems on PS4/PS5 your best bet is PS Now (if someone doesn't want to play it on an old system).

Pretty much. This entire thread is why I don't sell any of my systems unless i have a few of em

Every gen I think I buy like 3 systems.


I usually buy day 1 (I didn't for PS5 as its hard as fuck to find compared to PS4), then down the line with the first price drop I buy my older sister one (or when a new Sims or GTA comes out, which ever comes first) and then I buy a slim version for my other sister who is also a gamer. So every gen, by the time 6 or 7 years wraps up, I got a few systems in the house lol

I think I have like 4 or 5 PS3's lol

Regardless, I never sold any of them, I did how ever give one away to a my cousins in France and cousins in Haiti. I was happy to hear they are just as big gamers I was and really wanted them to have the same shit I have so I sent it to them instead of having it live in a closet. Either way, I hold on to my systems to play those old gems.

Stuff like Onimusha 1-4, Viewtiful Joe 1 and 2, Xenosaga 1-3 etc are some of the biggest reasons why i still own a PS3 60gb model and several PS2s.

No remasters? No BC?

No issue for me. I literally kept those systems because I basically never saw ports from those games or remasters or remakes (besides Onimusha 1), which means I have a great reason to hold on to them to play a few titles, vs streaming on PS Now or begging in threads. Its just such a waste. Its literally easier to just buy the damn system used, play the games and move on, then wait years and years or stream em. (well maybe someone likes streaming who knows lol)


When I get a PS5, I'm not selling that shit either lol, I'm sure PS6 will be BC to it with how Sony is doing their systems, I see me owning several PS5's as I don't really see me not getting another down the line for my family as gifts.

To your point regarding a business view, I don't think it has much to do with selling older titles as Sony doesn't even make the majority of games to care, its not as if Sony makes Devil May Cry and will get money from the collection or something lol I think if anything it has to do with less then 1% even play that shit and to them they simply don't see the point in spending so much, for such a small install base. I'd argue, I'm just not the norm in terms of gamers in terms of re-playing a bunch of old games, but then again I also like keeping all my systems (or vast majority) in the first place to never end up in that situation in the first place.

Steam and GOG are also on PC, so its not like its the store's beliefs to still sell old games as much as its an option on the platform they sell on. Thats completely different imho
 
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LordBlodgett

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Problem is if you let gamers play legacy games, gamers will funnel their money to old cheap games. Those oldies didn't have monetization either. If they want to play them, make them sub to PS Now
I wouldn't mind if they put them on PSNow if they just offered a downloadable game instead of streaming. PSNow streaming is really laggy
 

ACESHIGH

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Microsoft does
You can't do that on Playstation
Microsoft does

OP, yeah its sad. You should watch the progress on RPCS3 among other emulators A gaming PC will end up playing PS3, Wii U and Switch games way better than their respective consoles. Kudos to MS for caring about backwards compatibility, but that should be a standard across all 3 console makers.

If you care about legacy titles, you should play on a PC.
 
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sunnysideup

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Its fucking retarded.

PS5 is plenty powerful to run any playstation through emulation, especially for Sony Who have all hardware docs. .

Developing an emulator is a one time cost. Then they Can port it to whatever future system.

They get happy fans Who have games. They Can sell legacy games to those Who dont. And they Can take The data to see which game to remake.

But most importantly it builds trust in their ecosystem.
 
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Armorian

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Based on my experience with PS3 emulation, Zen 2 in PS5 is too weak to emulate some PS3 games in full speed, most of them probably but not all. Same was true for PS2 software emulation on PS3

For RPCS3:

Some games don't deserve to die on the PS3, apparently, Jim Ryan doesn't think the same way.
Games like:
MGS4 - Runs ok on decent CPUs
Killzone 2 and 3 - IDK about that
Siren - excellent, in high res and framerate
God of War Ascension - Runs ok on decent CPUs
Red Dead Redemption - shit on PS3 emu but ok on Xenia
Infamous - IDK about that
Metal Gear Solid HD Collection - Runs ok on decent CPUs
Final Fantasy XIII - has native PC port
Condemned 2 - IDK about that
ICO - probably runs great

Damn, this is so wrong

In monday I got my 3rd (sold previous units years ago) PS3 :messenger_tears_of_joy: I went: 80GB FAT -> Super Slim -> Slim 3004 (this one is the best)
 

Boss Mog

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PS5 could easily emulate PS3 and by extension PS2 and PS1. It's really surprising that Sony has chosen not to do this.
 

Kupfer

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I don't want/need a Xbox Series X for new games and I'm happy with my PlayStation Systems (1-5 including PSP, PSTV and Vita) but I really consider to buy a Series X just for backwards compatibility. Sony did a great job on the new console techwise but really spit in everyones' face who likes to play classic games from ones collection. This is what bothers me most about the brand PlayStation nowadays. They no longer act in a customer-oriented way but only in a profit-maximising way.
 
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