balladofwindfishes
Member
Because this is a classic Sonic game and classic Sonic games had 10 minute timers due to the game's arcade style gameplay roots.
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Sonic Mania |OT| Dreams Come True
- Thread starter Hot Coldman
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Because this is a classic Sonic game and classic Sonic games had 10 minute timers due to the game's arcade style gameplay roots.
Judging by what Yahtzee was saying about exploration and having issues with the time limit, I think the time limit was doing it's job and he was just too dense to notice.
While the time-limit is a bit tighter than the older games, it still isn't that tight and you should be able to easily beat each level within 10 minutes. The main point of the time limit, functionally at least, even if this wasn't why it was introduced in Sonic 1, is to force you to keep moving.
While the levels are labyrinth like and meant to be explored, they're not meant to be explored like a standard labyrinth you'd see in Zelda or La-Mulana; they're not meant to be combed through. The levels consists of one-way streets accessed by various platforming challenges and insight. The levels are designed to be replayed with the players choosing different routes each time. Some paths, like in Flying Battery Zone 2, can change the level completely! The game does not want methodically comb the levels for secrets; it wants you to keep moving towards the goal, trying new paths on each playthrough. The time limit it the game's way of telling you: "Stop doing that and finish the level."
I will say that the current system of hidden portals is actually flawed and annoying. They're too well hidden and randomly placed, which does in fact encourage combing. Plus, you need them to beat the game proper, so worrying about them is annoying. But if you're hitting the time-limit you're probably trying to move and explore the level in a bad way that's not going to be very fun, so the game tries to force you to play in the proper, funnier, way.
I do agree that Sonic 1's system, while also heavily flawed, was a lot better in concept. Really what they should do is have special stages tied to how fast you clear the level.
Switch seems to have a few bugs, mainly with the home menu taking a long time to load up (though someone with that version can go into more detail). I went with PS4 since I prefer the controller/D-pad (I think the Switch's D-pad is still fine, though) plus the trophies, but if you want Mania on the go, I can see why Switch would be tempting.
I have the switch version, and while the home menu coming up is not instant like other games, it's more like a second or slightly more maybe.
I keep wondering why this is bought up as an issue...I haven't timed it but it really it's a very very small delay...are people that impatient to get to the home screen?
Piston Hyundai
Member
that's kind of the thing, though
same as with the lives, the time limit serves only to meaninglessly punish people who aren't particularly good at the game (on top of curbing exploration to a degree)
anyone who's good enough has lives to spare, which makes boths systems nothing more than a formality
That's fair I suppose.
Well I have no idea what that could possibly mean so I guess I'm glad they changed it.
I think "pulp" was in reference to paper pulp (because printing presses) and "solstice" was in reference to the way it suddenly becomes a winter-themed level in the second act (solstices are the first day of summer and winter). It's kind of obscure on both points, though, so "Press Garden" is much more direct.
Well, that's kind of the point of any hazard, isn't it? Bottomless pits and spikes punish people bad at platforming. Crushes punish people bad at timing. The whole point is that there's a game-over condition if you lack the skill to play the game.
As for lives being a formality: Yes, but only for Save mode. Lives do have a function in No Save Mode. Sonic 1 and Sonic 2 didn't have save features; you had to beat them in one sitting. Part of the challenge was beating the entire game, not just individual sections, and collecting lives was a part of that. It gave people reasons to collect Rings and try to get high-scores in stages, as well as encouraging more skillful play since you couldn't recklessly spam sections to get past them. No Save Mode emulates this.
Of course, Sonic Mania is pretty easy and liberal with extra lives, so it still doesn't really matter too much even in No Save Mode.
Which the series grew out of once they left the Mega Drive era and in the Advance series they added in an option to turn off the Time Up limit.
It's an issue because levels are long more so in later part of the game and makes the mid level boss fight not fun as the player has to defeat them quickly as possible just to get to act 2.
Furthermore more it makes zero sense to how Sonic suddenly dies because the timer hit 9:59:59, what exactly killed him other than the game going "you take too long to beat level, you die now, you suck."
The Timer wasn't really a problem in Sonic 1 and 2 because levels were short, barring Metropolis Zone in Sonic 2.
It started to become a problem in Sonic 3 & Knuckles as level were longer.
I just glad that they made the puyo puyo Eggman boss fight super easy, as I suck at puyo puyo.
I still hate that boss fight though.
That reminds me of the thing that annoys me most about the game, that there's no lives or anything tied to the special stages (except that you get rings from the giant ring if you've got all the emeralds). Blue spheres is pointless when you have all the medals -- you should get some reward, and it'd be nice if players who needed lives had another way to get them.
Sonic gets so stressed out that you're going too slow that his heart explodes.
RecRoulette
Member
Glad they went with Press Garden. Realizing what they meant by "Press" was awesome.
Berserking Guts
Member
I guess I must be really good at classic sonic cause I'm not seeing any problem with the timer or issues with exploration. *shrugs* (to be fair I've never even tried exploring in sonic games, I go in the direction that's been dealt me)
It's a hell of a call back and the more I play it the more I'm enjoying myself (got the plat). Some of the bosses were a little disappointing though.
It's a hell of a call back and the more I play it the more I'm enjoying myself (got the plat). Some of the bosses were a little disappointing though.
Im really not getting the issues with the timer either, its not really the nature of the game to explore every last nook and cranny in one go. Its like complaining you keep dying in mario because you were slowly trying to collect every last coin but that nasty timer kept killing you.
Now if this was Sonic CD where exploration is the main conceit I'd understand
Now if this was Sonic CD where exploration is the main conceit I'd understand
I saw LIRIK played through this game on Twitch a few days ago and he was slamming this game real hard. Together with some of his mindless drone fans of course.
He was complaining about literally being stuck in a pinball machine but in Sonic form (actually kinda true, esp the Casino stage), no sense of direction or cues where to proceed next. No tutorials on the controls (lol), for example how to spin dash, the insane difficulty (I think he even mentioned it was harder than Dark Souls). Other nitpicks such as graphics, the uselessness of Tails, bouncing here and there making everyone dizzy. The modern gamer doesn't really get it that tough games existed before the Souls game.
There were a ton of other complaints and the audience just agreed and piled onto it. If anyone were to watch the stream, I bet they will never ever touch a Sonic game.
He was complaining about literally being stuck in a pinball machine but in Sonic form (actually kinda true, esp the Casino stage), no sense of direction or cues where to proceed next. No tutorials on the controls (lol), for example how to spin dash, the insane difficulty (I think he even mentioned it was harder than Dark Souls). Other nitpicks such as graphics, the uselessness of Tails, bouncing here and there making everyone dizzy. The modern gamer doesn't really get it that tough games existed before the Souls game.
There were a ton of other complaints and the audience just agreed and piled onto it. If anyone were to watch the stream, I bet they will never ever touch a Sonic game.
It always seemed kind of obvious to me that Sonic games don't want you to stop and explore every path in one playthrough.
This isn't a methodical exploratory Mario game, it's a pinball rollercoaster. Stopping and backtracking is really missing the point. Trust the fact that you will get to the end eventually, and it will all work out.
This isn't a methodical exploratory Mario game, it's a pinball rollercoaster. Stopping and backtracking is really missing the point. Trust the fact that you will get to the end eventually, and it will all work out.
two decades of people comparing sonic and mario has caused people who haven't really played a sonic game to be extremely confused when they realize it doesn't actually play anything like mario
Gotdatmoney
Member
Sonic games aren't about exploration but the way the special rings are hidden are stupid. Given the context that the levels are so big and you aren't afforded the option to replay levels until you beat the game. After which you can then just spam going to the location of the ring you know. Not that I think you need a physical reason to replay levels taking a different path but this is pretty stupid to me personally.
Rings shouldn't be hidden so fucking well if you're just gonna punish people trying to find them. It turns playthrough 1 into essentially ignore the special rings unless you stumble upon 1. I dont think its a great system personally.
I think some of that's probably fair. Sonic has been and still is very archaic when it comes to teaching the player, and has a big barrier to entry because of it. That's what happens when you have a plethora of actions attached to one button without any in-game explanation or way to teach the player what they can do organically.
They could get away with that back 20+ years ago when you're expected to read the manual that comes with your game, but with Mania being a digital title with a bare-bones controls option in the settings and no mention of the web manual, there's not really an excuse.
s_mirage
Member
I have to agree. After the first couple of zones I gave up worrying about the emeralds and then just spammed the hell out of the easy to reach one in GHZ after I'd finished the game. Although I know I did a similar thing in S3K back in the day, I don't recall the rings there being as well hidden (or the levels as large).
Actually, that's really an issue I have with the game in general: it's taken small design problems in S3K and made them worse. I know some people don't agree, but I'd also cite high speed crush deaths as an example of this too. To clarify, I'm talking about crush deaths where you basically just run into a too small gap and instantly die. They were rarely present in the older games but Sonic Mania seems to have made them a lot more common. In particular, there are a couple of areas in Titanic Monarch Zone which seem specifically designed to kill you this way if you're running too fast, like a rather cheap beginner's trap.
Davey Cakes
Member
Speaking of the timer, I beat the boss at 9:46 on Mirage Saloon Act 2. Cut that one real close.
Triforce141
Member
MegaManTrigger
Banned
IIRC Just need to have all Emeralds, bc Sonic is still blue when he enters the new area. You will automatically be sent to another area to fight the real final boss.
Telephone Man
Member
Yeah. I love Sonic 3&K, but how it handled the entrance to its Special Zone wasn't great. So it's a shame that Mania mimicked it.
Sonic 1 (get enough rings to the end) and 2 (get enough rings to a checkpoint) did it better.
I feel exploration should be a big bonus, but never a requirement in Sonic. Especially since unlike other games like the ones from Nintendo, there aren't much hints (if at all) to imply there's something hidden or close by.
Sonic 1 (get enough rings to the end) and 2 (get enough rings to a checkpoint) did it better.
I feel exploration should be a big bonus, but never a requirement in Sonic. Especially since unlike other games like the ones from Nintendo, there aren't much hints (if at all) to imply there's something hidden or close by.
I have it on Switch and its fantastic. I thought the weird Dpad would have been an issue but it's totally fine. Not a problem at all.
I opted for portability over trophies/achievements and couldn't have been happier. Also the home button lag isn't a problem. Only about 3 seconds.
Even classic Mario games don't want you hanging around too long. That 100-second warning is iconic.
Yes? It's designed to be a one button game:
Confirm, Jump, Spin Dash, Drop Dash, Double Jump/Bounce/Fire Dash thing, Flying with Tales, Gliding with Knuckles, Peel Out, Insta-Shield are all executed with the same button.
I'm not saying there's anything issue with that by itself, just that is makes it more difficult for a new player coming in blind when there's nothing there to help them learn. They aren't going to intuitively know or learn that you hold up and double tap A to get Sonic to fly with Tails or release A and then hold it in the air to charge up a drop dash.
I disagree.
There are just 2 action that are important: jump and spin dash (so hit one button or hit the same button while pressing down)... all the other are easily discovered by playing... or not discovered but not really important.
The gameplay is super easy to get into... it always was.
To be honest, it probably should mention the spin dash somewhere in the game.
I just watched that Lirik guy play and he had to be told about the spin dash, and had to be told later when he got stuck that you have to tap the button to charge it up (he thought you just had to wait). I don't think he ever figured out the drop dash. Granted, he didn't seem to pay much attention to things in general, but stopping dead in such a fast-paced game, holding down and then pressing jump is the sort of thing you can't really expect players to stumble upon by accident. I wouldn't be surprised if there were people who beat the old games without ever discovering the spin dash.
The game generally does a good job of explaining new stage and boss mechanics by forcing you to experience them before you can progress, but the basics are only listed on a website.
Watching somebody who wasn't experienced with platformers play it blindly highlighted some of the weird decisions in the game that made it seem like nobody on the developer team realised newcomers to the series may actually play it.
That shaft in Chemical Plant 1 seems incredibly unforgiving for such an early obstacle. In fact I'd say it's one of the more unforgiving obstacles in the entire game, especially when you're panicking. At one point it's possible to jump between two moving blocks and get crushed while attempting to stand up. Even as a long-time fan of the original game who knows exactly what's going on here, that is ridiculous.
That section in Studiopolis Act 2 where it seems you have no choice but to walk through a wall to continue was also kind of silly. As obvious as the hint may have been to fans of the series, walking through walls is generally something only used to discover secrets in games.
I also just found a bottomless pit near the start of Studiopolis Act 1. It's just there for the sake of it. If you fell in and didn't die, you'd land safely onto the part of the level you were on previously. I don't know what that's about. Are there even any other bottomless pits in the game?
I just watched that Lirik guy play and he had to be told about the spin dash, and had to be told later when he got stuck that you have to tap the button to charge it up (he thought you just had to wait). I don't think he ever figured out the drop dash. Granted, he didn't seem to pay much attention to things in general, but stopping dead in such a fast-paced game, holding down and then pressing jump is the sort of thing you can't really expect players to stumble upon by accident. I wouldn't be surprised if there were people who beat the old games without ever discovering the spin dash.
The game generally does a good job of explaining new stage and boss mechanics by forcing you to experience them before you can progress, but the basics are only listed on a website.
Watching somebody who wasn't experienced with platformers play it blindly highlighted some of the weird decisions in the game that made it seem like nobody on the developer team realised newcomers to the series may actually play it.
That shaft in Chemical Plant 1 seems incredibly unforgiving for such an early obstacle. In fact I'd say it's one of the more unforgiving obstacles in the entire game, especially when you're panicking. At one point it's possible to jump between two moving blocks and get crushed while attempting to stand up. Even as a long-time fan of the original game who knows exactly what's going on here, that is ridiculous.
That section in Studiopolis Act 2 where it seems you have no choice but to walk through a wall to continue was also kind of silly. As obvious as the hint may have been to fans of the series, walking through walls is generally something only used to discover secrets in games.
I also just found a bottomless pit near the start of Studiopolis Act 1. It's just there for the sake of it. If you fell in and didn't die, you'd land safely onto the part of the level you were on previously. I don't know what that's about. Are there even any other bottomless pits in the game?
SonicMegaDrive
Member
Yeah. Everyone says Sonic fans are unpleaseable. But that's not true, they just hadn't given the majority what they actually wanted up until now.
Jump and spin dash are the two actions that are required, not just important. Knowing how to use that weird item you picked up, how to get up to that place you can't seem to reach despite having the ability to do so, or how to better keep the pace of the movement flowing, is pretty damn important.
I'll have to disagree that Sonic is "super easy to get into", at least in comparison to other traditional 2D platformers, which is what newcomers are going to be comparing and developing an understanding from. Hell It took me a few games before it really clicked for me, and I made sure to look up and understand how to do the moves before fully diving into Sonic 1 and 2.
Nah. Its critical to the design of the series.
If you really want tutorials and are complaining about not know how to perform actions, they included a digital manual. Its really not a problem he just sounds kinda dumb.
The digital manual is just a link to the Sonic the Hedgehog website. It might as well tell people to look it up on the wikia at that point. Plus it's not good to people who are attempting to play offline.
I'm not necessarily asking for a tutorial, just some sort of information that's available ingame. Even if it's just a list of the basic abilities when you start playing for the first time. I just think it'd be a good idea to let new players know everything that Sonic is capable of so they're at least using all the tools available to them if they fail.
I imagine there are at least some people who wouldn't expect him to have any more abilities beyond running fast and jumping around, especially if they're coming from something like Mario. And if they did, it wouldn't be performed with something as unintuitive as the spin dash.
I'm amazed I figured it out as a child, looking back on it. I've been stuck at that barrel from Casino Nights at several different points in my life after repeatedly forgetting the solution.
Edit: Not to mention that this is what I'm greeted with when I look at the ingame controls options:
If someone made it there, I wouldn't blame them for thinking Sonic can only run and jump
Even as someone who loves Mania and the classic Sonic games, I do think Mania assumes a certain familiarity with how a Sonic game works. This is kind of why I've been hesitant to recommend it as someone's first Sonic game, because even as early as Chemical Plant and Flying Battery you'll encounter certain level designs that expect you to know how Sonic movies in some pretty specific ways that someone who's only platformer experience is something like Mario might not intuit easily.
I don't think that's a fault of the game - this is a game by fans, for fans, and therefore I don't think it has to be super welcoming to newcomers. But it would've been nice for them to include a tutorial to introduce new players to how Sonic and its physics work.
I don't think that's a fault of the game - this is a game by fans, for fans, and therefore I don't think it has to be super welcoming to newcomers. But it would've been nice for them to include a tutorial to introduce new players to how Sonic and its physics work.
Honestly I feel like someone who doesn't immediately 'get' things in Mania might not immediately 'get' things in the classics either. Mania feels a lot more accessible. It's not like people playing the classics in the 90s had prior experience to draw on while learning mechanics. And they certainly didn't have as robust an internet to go look for answers.
That isn't to say it couldn't do better being more accessible, obviously. Tutorial level seems like a cool idea.
That isn't to say it couldn't do better being more accessible, obviously. Tutorial level seems like a cool idea.
The time limit isnt directly the issue. Simply increase it or add an item box that grants time extensions. The problem is that compared to old sonic games, Mania's stages are even bigger and more complex than those and 10 minutes in the genesis sonics was way too much time.
cantona222
Member
This game is hard. Especially when it is game over at the end of act 2 and you have to start at act 1.
P.S. was there any explanation on how Tails can curry Sonic? It is hit and miss with me.
P.S. was there any explanation on how Tails can curry Sonic? It is hit and miss with me.
Lord British
Member
Disagree with that one, I think Mania is very difficult compared to the originals and very much catered for seasoned fans. The gimmicks are almost all callbacks to the classics, there's an assumption at play that you already basically get How To Sonic.
Great game obviously.
The Xtortionist
Member
Aside from FBZ/TMZ, Mania's zones didn't feel that much longer to me than S3&K's. FBZ2 and TMZ2 were the only stages where I came close to timing out.
I totally agree that the classics don't do any better job teaching you how to play them, but I think the difference is that the classic games don't demand as much from the player, either. Sonic 1, for example, can mostly just be played like a Mario game, with relatively linear levels and relatively simple platforming.
Actually, I think there's a sort of progression from Sonic 1 to 2 to 3 and Knuckles where they increasingly take greater advantage of Sonic's more unique properties, creating a learning curve of sorts. 3K is the only game of those that feels like Mania does to me, and it comes in at the tail end of that curve.